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Cody Dawg · Nov 18, 2005, 10:06 AM

Not Tooki, our beloved keeper-of-the-MacNN-flame, but Tookie, or Stanley Tookie Robinson.

Link

As murderer and Crips co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams tries to stave off execution next month, California prison officials have launched an unusual counterattack against the notion that he has redeemed himself behind bars.

In prison, Williams has gained international acclaim for writing children's books about the dangers of gang life. He has been nominated repeatedly for the Nobel Peace Prize -- anyone can nominate anyone. And he has attracted a cadre of celebrity supporters, including Jamie Foxx, who played Williams in a TV movie, "M*A*S*H" actor Mike Farrell and rapper Snoop Dogg, who is scheduled to appear at a rally Saturday outside the prison.

Okay, so I'm one of the people that believed in the death penalty, but I have to say that when someone is actively reaching out to help disaffected youth, making a positive difference, then I have to say that maybe, just maybe, he or she should be granted clemency.

This case reminds me of the execution of Karla Faye Tucker who was in a similar situation.

Think that people can redeem themselves while in prison? I'm a cynic but Tookie seems to have done it.

Cubeoid · Nov 18, 2005, 10:12 AM

tookie.com

nredman · Nov 18, 2005, 10:16 AM

west side

Cubeoid · Nov 18, 2005, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by nredman

west side

Thug Life, Gangsta 4 Life.

turtle777 · Nov 18, 2005, 10:24 AM

No threads about, uhm, administrators...

-t

Cubeoid · Nov 18, 2005, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

No threads about, uhm, administrators...

-t

You fail it ..... sooooooo bad.

Dork. · Nov 18, 2005, 10:27 AM

San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon, speaking on behalf of the department, went further in an interview last week, saying he suspects Williams is orchestrating gangland crimes from his cell.

"I just don't know that his heart is changed," Crittendon said.

If he is still involved in gang activity while on Death Row, doesn't that really say more about problems with the San Quentin prison system than it does about this inmate?

I am not a proponent of the Death Penalty, because I do believe that anyone and everyone has the possibility of being redeemed, if not to the people they have wronged, then to whatever higher power they believe in. So I am the wrong person to ask, because I would oppose the Death Penalty in all instances.

But even someone who has redeemed himself needs to pay his debt to society, so even if he is granted clemency, he should still serve out a life sentence with no possibility of parole. But if he can do some good for others while serving out his sentence, then why cut it short just out of an overdeveloped sense of vengeance? The knowledge that he will never be a free man as long as he is alive is punishment enough.

Cody Dawg · Nov 18, 2005, 10:29 AM

No threads about, uhm, administrators...

I begin to think you're all that, turtle, and then you say something that is, uh,

Anyway, this guy deserves a place on this earth. Maybe MacNStein or Doofy will come along and set me straight, but that's what I think right now.

ism · Nov 18, 2005, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This case reminds me of the execution of Karla Faye Tucker who was in a similar situation.:

What an unfortunate name.

turtle777 · Nov 18, 2005, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I begin to think you're all that, turtle, and then you say something that is, uh,

You thought I was serious ?

C'mon, a cube might fall for that (uhm, he DID), but not a veteran like you ?!?!

-t

Shaddim · Nov 18, 2005, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Anyway, this guy deserves a place on this earth. Maybe MacNStein or Doofy will come along and set me straight, but that's what I think right now.

Nah, that's about right. I'm not saying he's "redeemed", but he's on the road to it. I've been following this for some time, and in this case, I believe in a conditional stay of execution (still serving life w/o parole) as long as he behaves himself and continues to be a productive member of society. I know this isn't how the law works, but it would be the best way to handle this situation.

2 main reasons for this:

1. He does seem to be working towards change, and he's sincerely admitted his failures. His life working towards changing the gang culture would be worth more than his death in payment for his debt to society.

2. The potential backlash from his execution could cause very damaging results; riots, killings, property destruction, etc..

wdlove · Nov 18, 2005, 11:00 AM

I'm on the side of being skeptical. Thouhg I realize that his real punishment will occur after his death. The problem with our criminal system is that he should have been execuited soon after the verdict, the appeals just last too long. I also care for his victim, they suffered, and didn't get a second chance.

Cody Dawg · Nov 18, 2005, 11:10 AM

Wow, WDLove! That's amazing that you are the one person for fulfilling the sentence.

What I find interesting is the hypocrisy in some criminals. They did the crime, now pay for it. Don't beg for mercy for your life when you took someone else's life.

wdlove · Nov 18, 2005, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Wow, WDLove! That's amazing that you are the one person for fulfilling the sentence.

What I find interesting is the hypocrisy in some criminals. They did the crime, now pay for it. Don't beg for mercy for your life when you took someone else's life.

Thank you Cody, my dear friend.

Dork. · Nov 18, 2005, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by wdlove

I'm on the side of being skeptical. Thouhg I realize that his real punishment will occur after his death. The problem with our criminal system is that he should have been execuited soon after the verdict, the appeals just last too long. I also care for his victim, they suffered, and didn't get a second chance.

If the real punishment occues after his death, then does killing him sooner really make all that much of a difference? That ultimate punishment won't be meted out by us, after all.
If you believe in the Christian concept of the Afterlife, then the fellow who metes out that punishment can look inside this man's heart and judge him fairly. We can't, really. We can judge his actions, but not the man.

As for his victims and their families, I agree that they have suffered a great injustice because of the actions of this man. But that same fellow in charge of doling out divine justice asked for forgiveness of his killers when he was here on earth, and I think it's a worthy example to emulate.

Shaddim · Nov 18, 2005, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

If the real punishment occues after his death, then does killing him sooner really make all that much of a difference? That ultimate punishment won't be meted out by us, after all.
If you believe in the Christian concept of the Afterlife, then the fellow who metes out that punishment can look inside this man's heart and judge him fairly. We can't, really. We can judge his actions, but not the man.

As for his victims and their families, I agree that they have suffered a great injustice because of the actions of this man. But that same fellow in charge of doling out divine justice asked for forgiveness of his killers when he was here on earth, and I think it's a worthy example to emulate.

Forgiving someone != letting them get away with murder. This should never be about revenge or retaliation, it should be about protecting society from a known killer (yes, even protecting other inmates from them). A premeditated murderer could be put in solitary for the rest of their life, but it would be more merciful just to put them out of their misery (not to mention it would put less of a stress on our already over-filled prison system).

Then, when we do carry out the execution we need to handle it quick and efficiently, like shooting them behind the left ear with a .45. There's too much drama with all this, and it simply complicates the process.

Doofy · Nov 18, 2005, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Anyway, this guy deserves a place on this earth. Maybe MacNStein or Doofy will come along and set me straight, but that's what I think right now.

I don't support the death penalty in any circumstances, so this sits well with me. Remove from society for life, sure, but no state execution support from me. I really don't understand how any Christian can support the death penalty.

Note: I don't class perps dying in the heat of the action, such as being shot by a homeowner when he breaks in, in this category. Whatever goes down in the heat of the moment goes down.

Chuckit · 01:58 PM

I am not opposed to the death penalty, but I certainly don't see its use being justified here. More good would come from allowing him to live than killing him, so killing him is hardly pragmatic.

Rolling Bones · Nov 18, 2005, 02:50 PM

Kill him.

ReggieX · Nov 18, 2005, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Then, when we do carry out the execution we need to handle it quick and efficiently, like shooting them behind the left ear with a .45. There's too much drama with all this, and it simply complicates the process.

Totally agree. I have no problem with the death penalty, but its execution (ha!) leaves much to be desired. Bring back the damn guillotine, the Chair and gas chamber are hardly humane.

demograph68 · Nov 19, 2005, 03:08 AM

It's all about the crucifixions. We should do that again. It's been way too long.

production_coordinator · Nov 19, 2005, 03:39 AM

Letting him live is cheaper... so do that.

Cubeoid · Nov 19, 2005, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Kill him.

So evil.

production_coordinator · Nov 19, 2005, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by demograph68

It's all about the crucifixions. We should do that again. It's been way too long.

I was a big fan of the rack, drowning to make sure you were not a witch and and stoning... ah... the good old days.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 19, 2005, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

I was a big fan of the rack, drowning to make sure you were not a witch and and stoning... ah... the good old days.

Well, America is legalizing torture, so maybe we'll get there soon enough

Railroader · Nov 19, 2005, 06:31 AM

Capital Punishment is wrong.

But sometimes I think life in prison is worse.

I am certainly glad I am not in the position to make any such decisions.

baw · Nov 19, 2005, 07:08 AM

Fry him.

Cubeoid · Nov 19, 2005, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by baw

Fry him.

Not as evil as the other comment.

zizban · Nov 19, 2005, 10:33 AM

Redemption is always possible. I can, however, agree with the skepticism of prison officials; they probably have seen countless scams in their time and feel if Tookie can "get away" with this, others will try the same "scam". In a place like that, you have to do a lot to make skeptics into believers.

wallinbl · Nov 19, 2005, 10:37 AM

A guy that organized a gang like that can probably manage to fool you into not putting him to death as well. The punishment for what he did is death, and he knew it when he did it. He accepted that if he were caught, he would be put to death. A decision to do so was reached, and anything he does after that decision is probably in self preservation. I'd sure as hell try to get out of it if it were me.

production_coordinator · Nov 19, 2005, 10:43 AM

Would it be torture to say "We will postpone the execution for 3 years at which point we will reevaluate your situation"?

I don't like the idea of putting people that have legitimately changed... then again... I'm not the family of the victim.

wdlove · Nov 19, 2005, 12:00 PM

Sadly the victim and family get left out in all this.

Cody Dawg · Dec 10, 2005, 11:01 AM

Tookie should live.

Wonder what Schwarzeneggar is going to do? I have a feeling he's going to let the execution proceed. I hope his leftie wife, Maria, is whispering sweet Tookie-nothings in his ear. Maybe she'll convince him to ease up.

Cody Dawg · Dec 10, 2005, 11:01 AM

Tookie should live.

Wonder what Schwarzeneggar is going to do? I have a feeling he's going to let the execution proceed. I hope his leftie wife, Maria, is whispering sweet Tookie-nothings in his ear. Maybe she'll convince him to ease up.

wdlove · Dec 10, 2005, 11:10 AM

Hi Cody

It is certainly a difficult decision. I wish him the wisdom of Solomon.

yakkiebah · Dec 10, 2005, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by demograph68

It's all about the crucifixions. We should do that again. It's been way too long.

I vote impalement.

Stick it up yur ass, yo

Cody Dawg · Dec 10, 2005, 11:12 AM

You do have a very good point: There WAS a victim, yes. Actually, several, right?

Hmmm...

It's tough, isn't it? The conservative part of me says that if you do the crime you pay the price set by society at large. In this case, death.

The other part of me doesn't believe in the death penalty.

Tough call.

wdlove · Dec 10, 2005, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You do have a very good point: There WAS a victim, yes. Actually, several, right?

Hmmm...

It's tough, isn't it? The conservative part of me says that if you do the crime you pay the price set by society at large. In this case, death.

The other part of me doesn't believe in the death penalty.

Tough call.

You have a very good point Cody. It is very hard, both sides are very valid. I always go back to, why didn't he show mercy to his victims in the first place.

wdlove · Dec 10, 2005, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You do have a very good point: There WAS a victim, yes. Actually, several, right?

Hmmm...

It's tough, isn't it? The conservative part of me says that if you do the crime you pay the price set by society at large. In this case, death.

The other part of me doesn't believe in the death penalty.

Tough call.

You have a very good point Cody. It is very hard, both sides are very valid. I always go back to, why didn't he show mercy to his victims in the first place.

wdlove · Dec 10, 2005, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You do have a very good point: There WAS a victim, yes. Actually, several, right?

Hmmm...

It's tough, isn't it? The conservative part of me says that if you do the crime you pay the price set by society at large. In this case, death.

The other part of me doesn't believe in the death penalty.

Tough call.

You have a very good point Cody. It is very hard, both sides are very valid. I always go back to, why didn't he show mercy to his victims in the first place.

Cody Dawg · Dec 10, 2005, 11:21 AM

That's true, WD. He wasn't very merciful, was he?

But, he has done as much as possible to redeem his life since then - even knowing that he was on death row - and has had a positive impact on people. God works through people like that, you know? God would continue working through Tookie Williams if we let him. Instead, we are going to kill him.

Killing one person then killing the person who killed is just not right.

In other words, two wrongs don't make a right, see?

OldManMac · Dec 10, 2005, 11:36 AM

It is not up to any human being to take a life, even in retaliation for murder. The death penalty has nothing to do with justice, and everything to do with revenge.

Ghoser777 · Dec 10, 2005, 12:09 PM

And maybe a little with deterrence... but I've always doubted that a criminal would be less likely to do a violent crime if their punishment is the death penalty versus life without parole.

teknopimp · Dec 10, 2005, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

...God works through people like that, you know? God would continue working through Tookie Williams if we let him.

God can have him after the law is done with him.

btw is there a website ticker counting down to the execution?

deedar · Dec 10, 2005, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Think that people can redeem themselves while in prison? I'm a cynic but Tookie seems to have done it.

Redeemed from what? The gang thing? What about the crime for which he was convicted? You do know that he was convicted for four murders that he has never admitted to. Do you therefore think he was innocent?

Would you still feel the same about his "redemption" if he were an athesist and was also doing all the "good" things that he is currently doing?

Don't get me wrong - I am totally against the death penalty - I just don't think that this guy is a special case.

Ghoser777 · Dec 10, 2005, 12:50 PM

There's a difference between redemption before the law and redemption before God.

Buckaroo · Dec 10, 2005, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Not Tooki, our beloved keeper-of-the-MacNN-flame, but Tookie, or Stanley Tookie Robinson.

Link

Okay, so I'm one of the people that believed in the death penalty, but I have to say that when someone is actively reaching out to help disaffected youth, making a positive difference, then I have to say that maybe, just maybe, he or she should be granted clemency.

This case reminds me of the execution of Karla Faye Tucker who was in a similar situation.

Think that people can redeem themselves while in prison? I'm a cynic but Tookie seems to have done it.

His reaching out is a 1000% SCAM. He knew the only way that he could avoid the death penalty was to appear as though he has changed his life around. If he was released from prison tomorrow, he would immediately go on a killing rampage. There is NO redemption for what he did. NONE. He didn't do it once. He killed 4 people on at least 2 different times and locations. The devil is has masked his evil so that he can commit future evil acts. Why didn't he change his life around before he brutally murdered 4 people?

Buckaroo · Dec 10, 2005, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Not Tooki, our beloved keeper-of-the-MacNN-flame, but Tookie, or Stanley Tookie Robinson.

Link

Okay, so I'm one of the people that believed in the death penalty, but I have to say that when someone is actively reaching out to help disaffected youth, making a positive difference, then I have to say that maybe, just maybe, he or she should be granted clemency.

This case reminds me of the execution of Karla Faye Tucker who was in a similar situation.

Think that people can redeem themselves while in prison? I'm a cynic but Tookie seems to have done it.

His reaching out is a 1000% SCAM. He knew the only way that he could avoid the death penalty was to appear as though he has changed his life around. If he was released from prison tomorrow, he would immediately go on a killing rampage. There is NO redemption for what he did. NONE. He didn't do it once. He killed 4 people on at least 2 different times and locations. The devil is has masked his evil so that he can commit future evil acts. Why didn't he change his life around before he brutally murdered 4 people?

Cody Dawg · Dec 10, 2005, 02:51 PM

People on drugs can hardly remember their names, let alone the fact that they may die for a violent crime.

Most violent crimes were committed under the influence: Influence of drugs, alcohol, or greed.

Volks · Dec 10, 2005, 03:05 PM

Tookie Williams can never redeem himself. He proved that he is a monster when he started a racist gang and coldly murdered people. Let us not keep this monster alive anymore.

I suggest that we build a pit with a lion, and let tookie battle it out.