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macintologist · Dec 3, 2003, 05:14 AM

This behavior applies to all Windows apps for quite a while now and Apple and 3rd party developers have begun implementing it in some of their apps. I think that with an influx of Windows switchers, Apple has made and should further make some adjustments to the Mac OS to accomodate them. One of these accomodations should be the quitting of an app when you close the last window.

What you close the system prefs window, it quits, and this makes perfect sense. When you close the window is there no reason that your intent would be other than to quit it.

Calculator, and many of the utilities also have this behaviour. I'm on a PC now so I can't check but I believe iPhoto and iMovie do this too.

There are some applications where this should not occur. Really big slow-launching apps like Photoshop, Macromedia Studio MX, Maya, Final Cut et al, should not quit unless you specifically tell it to. It does this in Windows and it's utterly annoying.

However, I believe that Apple should implement this behavior in all their consumer-oriented apps. When you close the iTunes window, would your intent be anything other than to "close" (or Quit) iTunes? Safari?

jac · Dec 3, 2003, 06:18 AM

I amost always close iTunes' window and leave it running, that's the beauty of being able to have windowless apps running!
I agree however that in some cases it does make sense to quit the app when the window is closed, but Panther does this too often IMO. The problem is inconsistency more than anything else.
Apps that can still perform functions without a window open MUST be able to do so, though.

Jim Paradise · Dec 3, 2003, 06:40 AM

**** no. I hate how Windows applications quit after the last window is closed. It's such a brain-dead UI concept.

MickS · Dec 3, 2003, 06:46 AM

If I have a download going in Safari and no download window going I don't want Safari to try and quit when I close the last visible window. It would popup a window asking whether I want to stop the download and quit. If I say no it would be running with no window. This would provide an inconsistency as sometimes Safari would be running with no windows open and sometimes this would close automatically.

On balance no I don't want apps to close automatically when I close the last window. There are some apps that only have a single window, iMovie, iPhoto etc and quitting when closing the window here is acceptable.

voodoo · Dec 3, 2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
**** no. I hate how Windows applications quit after the last window is closed. It's such a brain-dead UI concept.

My thoughts exactly. Also irritating thing in OS X is the inconsistancy. Calculator.app and from 10.3 System Preferances quit when closed while no other Apple apps do it (IIRC). WiMP9 and Realplayer quit when closed but QuickTime doesn't quit when all windows are closed. *sigh* 3rd party apps are excusable in a way (does iTunes on windows quit when closed?) but Apple apps should be 100% consistant with each other. i.e. they should ALWAYS stay open no matter how many windows you close. An app should ONLY quit if the user commands it to specifically through the file menu or command-Q.

Ω · Dec 3, 2003, 07:13 AM

I personally think it should depend on the app. If it is an app that will typically have one window the quit. If it is an app that multiple windows are common then let it slide. I am forever loading Firebird on my Dell at work as the OSX way has become standard for me, and to me is logical. Originally a but weird, but I guess in OSX when you can actually more than 10 programs running concurrently this is not too much of an issue.

Zadian · Dec 3, 2003, 07:16 AM

I think the way it is currently in Mac OS X is OK.

Singel window Apps quit if the window is closed and multi-window apps stay open.

It really annoys me when real player quits if I close it's window. That shouldn't happen, as I can have multiple windows open (is this the case? I don't use real player that much).

By the way - iPhoto shouldn't quit if the main window is closed. iPhoto is a multi-window app as pictures can be opened in a separate windows.

Most of the time closing the last window shouldn't quit the app.

Zadian · Dec 3, 2003, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by macintologist:
However, I believe that Apple should implement this behavior in all their consumer-oriented apps. When you close the iTunes window, would your intent be anything other than to "close" (or Quit) iTunes? Safari?

No, most apps should be able to run without a window.
Apps that can have multiple windows shouldn't quit if the last window is closed.

Especially Apps that handle documents should be able to run without a window open. That way i don't have to start up the app again just to view a document.
That's why Safari and iTunes shouldn't quit if the last window is closed.

jbelch3 · Dec 3, 2003, 07:33 AM

System Preferences should not quit when closing the window. Panther finally added easy access to all preferences with a right click (ctrl-click) on the icon in the dock. It would be ideal to close the window and access my preferences this way. Why even add the functionality if you have to have the window open. Makes no sense to me

threestain · Dec 3, 2003, 08:02 AM

No, no no and no!

I'm a recent switcher, and whilst it is annoying occaisionally to have to do a proper quit, in most cases its a great boon - like in safari, mail and stuff, I just forget somethings are open or why and close windows, then panic when I realise what I've done. Fortunately most of the time things are ok! (See OSX is made for idiots like me!)

macintologist · Dec 3, 2003, 08:09 AM

During Jaguar I actually sent Apple feedback saying that they should make System Prefs quit when you close the last window and they must have listened

System Prefs, Calculator, Safari... all these apps open in less than second when they have already been launched before! So I think that if you close the last window and the app quits, it's like saying "ok I'm done with this app" and when you want it again you click on the dock or whatever and it launches almost immediately. And this is on an 800mhz FP iMac. Perhaps an options within the apps would be nice.

As I said before, Photoshop and other heavy weight apps (or apps with some kind of toolbar like MS Word) should never quit unless you say because they launched slowly, even the second time.

Edit: And if something is happening like a download in Safari, or you have an unsaved document.. of course it would ask you to save or something. Ha! If it quit without saving...that sounds like something Windows would do.

Millennium · Dec 3, 2003, 08:34 AM

It depends on the type of app.

Utility apps, where a window provides all the app's functionality, should quit when the last window is closed. Examples of such apps would be iTunes and System Preferences, though it should be noted that neither app actually does this (shame on you, Apple).

Document apps, where a window displays one document out of (theoretically) many which the user is working on simultaneously, should not quit when their last window is closed. Instead, they should display a "Starting Points" window, where a user might choose to create a new document, do other things which the app might provide, or quit the app entirely. This shouldn't be a modal dialog, it should close when the user chooses to do something, and closing this window without doing anything should quit the app. Examples of apps which follow this paradigm would be word processors, Web browsers, and spreadsheets.

Under no circumstances should an app just sit there, basically invisible to the user, when the last window is closed. The user needs some kind of notification that the app is still running, and a little triangle in the Dock is not sufficient notification of this.

Zadian · Dec 3, 2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Utility apps, where a window provides all the app's functionality, should quit when the last window is closed. Examples of such apps would be iTunes and System Preferences, though it should be noted that neither app actually does this (shame on you, Apple).

You can have multible windows in iTunes one for each playlist.
Opening a mp3 file will show it in iTunes, so iTunes is a document oriented mutlible window app. iTunes behaves like it should - in my oppinion.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 3, 2003, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
My thoughts exactly. Also irritating thing in OS X is the inconsistancy. Calculator.app and from 10.3 System Preferances quit when closed while no other Apple apps do it (IIRC).

All "desk accessories" have done it, historically, for twenty years - calculator, Note Pad, System Prefs, Chooser, anything that came installed in the Apple menu, back before it was easily customizable.

Now, the distinction is single-window vs. multiple-window apps.

iMovie is a single-window app and will quit when you close its window.

-s*

SMacTech · Dec 3, 2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
It depends on the type of app.

Utility apps, where a window provides all the app's functionality, should quit when the last window is closed. Examples of such apps would be iTunes and System Preferences, though it should be noted that neither app actually does this (shame on you, Apple).

System Preferences does quit when you close its window.

neilw · Dec 3, 2003, 12:35 PM

Examples of such apps would be iTunes and System Preferences, though it should be noted that neither app actually does this (shame on you, Apple).

Huh? iTunes can continue to play with no windows open, a feature I use all the time.

As some others have stated, the inconsistency is maddening. In general, I don't like apps closing when I close their last window, for the simple reason that it generally takes longer to restart the app next time than to just have it re-open its window. For screen management purposes, I frequently close windows I'm not using for a while (especially large ones, a la iPhoto). That doesn't mean I'm done with the app.

For example, I'm generally annoyed by the way the new System Preferences closes. On my machine it takes about two bounces to re-open, much slower than when I used to just leave it running. And what's the harm in leaving it running? What's the rush to close apps on a Unix system?

iPhoto annoys me in the same way. 5 bounces plus significant additional delay to re-open. Why, what's the point? This isn't OS9 where you have to close apps to reclaim their memory.

Plus, you generally get no indication from the red stoplight whether it's going to just close the window or the whole app.

The one kind of app that I can agree with quitting on window close is the small one-window utility, like Calculator or something. But big apps shouldn't close unless I specifically ask them to.

Then there are apps like Cocktail (I'm using 1.3, may have changed since then), which use a third system. Takes *forever* to start up. Simply disables the red stoplight, so you have to quit via the menu. This at least prevents accidentally closing it, though I'd rather it let me run windowless. Should apps like iPhoto just disable the red button?

Oh, and I know I can hide applications to get the effect I'm looking for (app is running but not sucking up screen). But why should I have to consciously think about which kind of app I'm using, and decide which method to hide it? It doesn't make sense. I'm conditioned (correctly) from using apps like Mail, iTunes, Safari, OfficeX, etc., that it's OK to close the last window to get it out of the way. I should be able to use that behavior (more) universally.

The most frustrating GUI mis-steps, are, for me, those that force me to slow down and apply conscious thought to something that could and should be automatic. This is one of those areas.

IMHO.

Developer · Dec 3, 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Utility apps, where a window provides all the app's functionality, should quit when the last window is closed. Examples of such apps would be iTunes and System Preferences, though it should be noted that neither app actually does this (shame on you, Apple).

Are you crazy? I listen to music with iTunes all the time and have all windows closed. It would suck royally if iTunes quit with the window.
System Preferences shouldn't quit either. The Dock menu provides easy access to all preference panels if it is running, but not if it is quit.
It was also bad when Address Book quit. It provides useful services (SMS receiving) without the need to have a window open.

In short any application provides a useful service while running without a window in one or the other way, the most minimal being to stay in the Dock. So no application should quit with the last window.

dice · Dec 3, 2003, 01:58 PM

You have to remember that on Windows the apps menubar is part of the window itself, so it would make little sense to have an app keep running if there was no menubar visible, whereas on the Mac the menubar is seperate to the windows so if all the windows are closed you still have a way to access the app.

voodoo · Dec 3, 2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
All "desk accessories" have done it, historically, for twenty years - calculator, Note Pad, System Prefs, Chooser, anything that came installed in the Apple menu, back before it was easily customizable.

Now, the distinction is single-window vs. multiple-window apps.

iMovie is a single-window app and will quit when you close its window.

-s*

iMovie yes. Not iCal, Address book, Mail.app et al. You were saying?

Not inconsistant?

?

In OS X it is unnecessary to quit apps to free memory. Apps that are just siting in the backround not taking up RAM and not taking up any (or very small) processor time do not need to be quit. This is OS X. Quitting small (or not so small) apps is so last century.

Apple should make all their apps able to run without a window (even the microtools like calculator.app although I don't care much about apps *that* small ). System Preferences should *not* quit when the window is closed. It takes up too much time starting that friggin' app. IMO

Thor · Dec 3, 2003, 02:18 PM

I think that for the most part, closing a window should NOT quit the app.

One "app" that should quit on window close IMO is Internet Connect. Why the heck shouldn't it quit when I close it's window?

Peter · Dec 3, 2003, 02:28 PM

no app should close when you close the last window - its damn annoying.

Brass · Dec 3, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Utility apps, where a window provides all the app's functionality, should quit when the last window is closed. Examples of such apps would be iTunes and System Preferences, though it should be noted that neither app actually does this (shame on you, Apple).

I strongly disagree with this!

most of iTunes' functionality is not through it's window, but through the speakers. Why should I have to have a window open to listen to music???

King Bob On The Cob · Dec 3, 2003, 08:37 PM

The real question is, Why do apps need to be closed? OS X takes much longer than Windows to start the App initially, and when the last window is closed, often the app goes into idle mode (1.5 megs of Virtual Memory used) and then when you click on them, it's almost instant startup and display window.

sushiism · Dec 3, 2003, 09:10 PM

small crap like calculator yes
photoshop, web browser etc GOD NO

Boondoggle · Dec 3, 2003, 09:35 PM

Jeeze louiezze...

Closing an iTunes window and having it quit makes no sense, as you can control the damned thing through the dock icon.

Quit on close for iPhoto is damned annoying as it takes so long to launch with all my photos in it....

Why can't apple make quit-on-close a pref for all apps?

LightWaver-67 · Dec 3, 2003, 09:42 PM

as others have also mentioned...

Certain things, yes; Calculator, System Prefs, other things that are single-task oriented or something... sure.

But there's NO WAY I want to keep Re-launching PShop or Illustrator every time I want to open a document. I launch my Grfx apps when I boot-up and I don't quit them until I leave work (they like us to shut-down our computers after work).

So... when I drag a PSD file to the alias, it pops right open without waiting for it to launch.

(This is in OS9, mind you)