[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

No that isn't the purpose. Else they would make it so you have to do extra steps to SIGN UP instead of extra steps to cancel. They are hoping they can get some money from extra lazy people and those that don't read the small print.

As I said, it's not in the small print. It's patently obvious and well-advertised. If you get screwed by being lazy, then that's your own fault, I'm afraid.

[♥]

Unless they have your SSN number, which I doubt, I would not worry about it.

Try calling John Barnes directly. It probably goes through to an Indian call center.

Also, after hearing about this situation I would never buy another copy of MacAddict not at the newsstand nor would I get a subscription. I say that you should call the head of their marketing department or executive offices and tell them that this experience is terrible and that you are posting the information on the internet about the attempt of their selected credit agency to bully and coerce young adults and people.

Very bad business practices, if you ask me.

Also, I wonder if they are asking you for a credit card number? Might be a way for them to harvest credit card information also.

Unbelievable that MacAddict is in such bad shape that they actually try to force people into $25 subscriptions.

[FireWire]

F*ck! I hate that attitude.. Someone have been ripped off and instead of showing some compassion, you say "Well, it's obviously YOUR fault, so shut up and pay".. What about "well, it's technically your fault but it's true that their practice are dishonest, shame on them".

By default, we think that if we stop paying for a service, the service will stop, end of story. Something similar happened to me this summer with my car's registrations (plate). I had an accicent two months prior to my plate's renewal date, so I sent it to scrap and I simply didn't pay my plates when they were due, as I didn't have the said car anymore. Well one month later I received a bill which said that I didn't renew my plates in time and that I had to pay a penalty.. I pay for the right to drive a vehicle, if I stop paying, my right is cancelled, end of story? What's so hard about "Hmmm, the customer didn't pay, maybe he doesn't want our service anymore, so let's stop it. Next case!"

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

By default, we think that if we stop paying for a service, the service will stop, end of story. Something similar happened to me this summer with my car's registrations (plate). I had an accicent two months prior to my plate's renewal date, so I sent it to scrap and I simply didn't pay my plates when they were due, as I didn't have the said car anymore. Well one month later I received a bill which said that I didn't renew my plates in time and that I had to pay a penalty.. I pay for the right to drive a vehicle, if I stop paying, my right is cancelled, end of story? What's so hard about "Hmmm, the customer didn't pay, maybe he doesn't want our service anymore, so let's stop it. Next case!"

How many businesses have been screwed over because their customer chooses not to pay? Consider that Businesses offer services or products on credit all the time. The Cable company gives you your service the month before you pay for it, A store believes you when you say that your check is worth x amount of dollars, and a Bank honors your signature standing up for you and saying "I really will pay back this money you're loaning me."

Customers screw businesses all the time, the Business has to a) take the cut and deal with it, or b) provide a method of ensuring the loss will be minimal. Banks hire collection agencies, stores note that there's a minimum bounced check fee, and magazines say "if you don't stop it, we will continue to bill you".

The real world is not forgiving to business or customer. Neither Business or Customer should expect it to be.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

F*ck! I hate that attitude.. Someone have been ripped off and instead of showing some compassion, you say "Well, it's obviously YOUR fault, so shut up and pay".. What about "well, it's technically your fault but it's true that their practice are dishonest, shame on them".

By default, we think that if we stop paying for a service, the service will stop, end of story. Something similar happened to me this summer with my car's registrations (plate). I had an accicent two months prior to my plate's renewal date, so I sent it to scrap and I simply didn't pay my plates when they were due, as I didn't have the said car anymore. Well one month later I received a bill which said that I didn't renew my plates in time and that I had to pay a penalty.. I pay for the right to drive a vehicle, if I stop paying, my right is cancelled, end of story? What's so hard about "Hmmm, the customer didn't pay, maybe he doesn't want our service anymore, so let's stop it. Next case!"

See that's the thing. You and others here think what MacAddict did was somehow misleading or dishonest. It wasn't. It was CLEARLY, in plain English, spelled out EXACTLY what happens when you sign up for the free issue and what you need to do to cancel the subscription you agreed to. If people are too lazy too read agreements, they have no right to complain when the the agreement takes effect. In this case, when the OP signed up for the free issue, he AGREED to 11 more issues at the price stated. If he wanted to CANCEL, he was explictly told to write CANCEL on the invoice. If he did that, it would be over.

[Chuckit]

He requested a free issue. At no point did he agree to be sent more issues.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

He requested a free issue. At no point did he agree to be sent more issues.

I subscribed to MacAddict for a few years. Every single 'free issue' offer that I saw that came out of the magazine or off of the website is quite explicit in noting that by requesting a free issue you are also agreeing to receive 11 more and pay the subscription fee. By not acting, he agreed to receiving more issues.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

He requested a free issue. At no point did he agree to be sent more issues.

What do you see in this screen shot?



Hmmm, it says that you agree to pay $19.95 for 11 MORE issues. If you are not satisfied, write CANCEL on the invoice. How is that confusing? How is that not clear that 11 more issues would be sent (along with a bill for $19.95) if you did not write the word CANCEL on the invoice?

[Dale Sorel]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

I got the free trial magazine.

What's this thing you call a magazine

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dale Sorel 

What's this thing you call a magazine

That thing where you pay for advertisements.

-t

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That thing where you pay for advertisements.

-t

Like cable TV.

[FireWire]

Yes, we can all read. That's why I agree that the OP is technically in the wrong, but it's dishonest from the magazine's part to advertise the offer as a "FREE issue" while in reality it's a one-year subcription with a free issue, and that you must pay for the stamp to say "No, I just wanted the free issue that was promised to me in big, red, bold letters".

[Hash]

Yep:

"f I like Mac|Life, I will pay $19.95 for 11 more issues (12 in all). If I am not fully satisfied, I will return the invoice marked "cancel" and have no further obligation.

Please allow 4 - 6 weeks for the mailing of your free issue.

May we contact you via email? Yes No

Please your subscription request, or the form now. "

I think its perfectly understandable.. at least for average IQ people

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

Yes, we can all read. That's why I agree that the OP is technically in the wrong, but it's dishonest from the magazine's part to advertise the offer as a "FREE issue" while in reality it's a one-year subcription with a free issue, and that you must pay for the stamp to say "No, I just wanted the free issue that was promised to me in big, red, bold letters".

Then every business who's ever offered something for free* is being dishonest. If it's plainly stated, even in fine print (which in this case, the print isn't even fine.), it's not dishonesty. It was spelled out there in plain type.

Is the prize in Cereal Free? How about the first free month of internet service with a contract? Yet no one accuses cereal companies or ISPs of being dishonest in their promotions.

The worst you can accuse them of is a standard business practice.

[FireWire]

Even if it's written clearly, they're still being dishonest because they attracted people using a false pretext. Rep in my local Canadian Tire retail store (a kind of Target) attract people in the front of the store by yelling "FREE gift! Free gift for you sir!". When you get closer you learn that you have to apply for their credit card to receive it.. It's dishonest (while legal) because the customer is attracted using a false pretext. It would be different if they clearly stated from the start "Subscribe for 1 year and get one issue free" or "Apply for our credit card and get a free gift".

You may well see the warning when you sign-up, but you may think that you will be reminded in due time after the first issue "Your trial period is over. If you want to stop receiving our magazine, please check this box". But they know damn well that some people will forget and not do it, that's the very reason they are doing this in the first place, thus the dishonesty claim. If you plan to make money on people's mistakes, that's dishonesty in my book.

And if you want to play with words, one could claim that they say "there's no obligation" in the first paragraph, while they say "and have no further obligation" above the submit button. In my book "no obligation" means that I should not be obliged to do anything. If I have to pay for a stamp, and mail it back or I will be billed, well that's an obligation.

[Yose]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

What do you see in this screen shot?

Hmmm, it says that you agree to pay $19.95 for 11 MORE issues. If you are not satisfied, write CANCEL on the invoice. How is that confusing? How is that not clear that 11 more issues would be sent (along with a bill for $19.95) if you did not write the word CANCEL on the invoice?

Hmm. I don't think that subscription form constitutes a contract or binding agreement.

[Salty]

I prefered MacAddict to MacWorld both of them aren't as good as MacNN though.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

Is the prize in Cereal Free? How about the first free month of internet service with a contract? Yet no one accuses cereal companies or ISPs of being dishonest in their promotions.

Sometimes they do...

Our company advertises free setup, free image storage, and no charge to post events for photographers selling their prints... we had one person get very irate at us for having "false advertising" when they found out that although all of those things are in fact free, we charge a fee when they make a sale using our site (if they never make a sale they never pay a penny, but if they do sell images through our storefronts we take a percentage). I couldn't believe the fuss that guy was making. The reason that we advertise the free stuff is because a majority of our competitors do in fact charge for those things and so our claim of "free" for those items is very valid. It's like some people don't know that a business has to make money somehow.

The part that bothers me most about a lot of people's posts in this thread is that they are looking for ways to get out of all personal responsibility. Everyhing is someone else's fault, even if they are told exactly what to do and then just fail to do it. If you are getting a product or starting a service with ANY business you need to read the conditions of what you are getting into, and if you don't read the terms you deserve anything that happens because of it.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

Sometimes they do...

Our company advertises free setup, free image storage, and no charge to post events for photographers selling their prints... we had one person get very irate at us for having "false advertising" when they found out that although all of those things are in fact free, we charge a fee when they make a sale using our site (if they never make a sale they never pay a penny, but if they do sell images through our storefronts we take a percentage). I couldn't believe the fuss that guy was making. The reason that we advertise the free stuff is because a majority of our competitors do in fact charge for those things and so our claim of "free" for those items is very valid. It's like some people don't know that a business has to make money somehow.

The part that bothers me most about a lot of people's posts in this thread is that they are looking for ways to get out of all personal responsibility. Everyhing is someone else's fault, even if they are told exactly what to do and then just fail to do it. If you are getting a product or starting a service with ANY business you need to read the conditions of what you are getting into, and if you don't read the terms you deserve anything that happens because of it.

I think I agree entirely with your post.

Though rare, I must conceed that there are some people who really expect free to be free. IMO, there really is no such thing as free. (As in Free Beer, there is freedom, as is Free Speech)

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

The part that bothers me most about a lot of people's posts in this thread is that they are looking for ways to get out of all personal responsibility. Everyhing is someone else's fault, even if they are told exactly what to do and then just fail to do it. If you are getting a product or starting a service with ANY business you need to read the conditions of what you are getting into, and if you don't read the terms you deserve anything that happens because of it.

What bothers me is the business trying to get out of personal responsibility for a confusing and dishonest way of selling things. Agreements along the lines of "We are going to assume you have bought something unless you tell us you haven't" are not a valid kind of sale. A lot of people here are saying to the individual, "Well, that's what you get for not playing by the company's rules." I say to the company, "That's what you get for assuming."

Your company's case is different because you weren't trying to trick people into buying something. You didn't force him to sell his stuff (and thus get charged a fee), and you never said you wouldn't charge a fee for sales. That's different that saying "Mail this for a free magazine! Oh, and by the by, you want a full subscription, right? What, no answer? I'll take that as a yes and bill you for it!"

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

What bothers me is the business trying to get out of personal responsibility for a confusing and dishonest way of selling things. Agreements along the lines of "We are going to assume you have bought something unless you tell us you haven't" are not a valid kind of sale. A lot of people here are saying to the individual, "Well, that's what you get for not playing by the company's rules." I say to the company, "That's what you get for assuming."

Your company's case is different because you weren't trying to trick people into buying something. You didn't force him to sell his stuff (and thus get charged a fee), and you never said you wouldn't charge a fee for sales. That's different that saying "Mail this for a free magazine! Oh, and by the by, you want a full subscription, right? What, no answer? I'll take that as a yes and bill you for it!"

Actually, it's more like saying "Mail this for a magazine subscription! If you change your mind, you can cancel after the first issue and keep it for free!"

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Actually, it's more like saying "Mail this for a magazine subscription! If you change your mind, you can cancel after the first issue and keep it for free!"

"Use this form to reserve your FREE copy of Mac|Life’s premier issue. There’s no obligation."

Yeah, that's totally like what you just said. The actual deal is similar to what you just said, but the offer definitely does not present itself as "This is a subscription form."

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

"Use this form to reserve your FREE copy of Mac|Life’s premier issue. There’s no obligation."

Yeah, that's totally like what you just said. The actual deal is similar to what you just said, but the offer definitely does not present itself as "This is a subscription form."

If you ignore everything but what you quoted, then yeah it's shady. But you left out this part: "If I like Mac|Life, I will pay $19.95 for 11 more issues (12 in all). If I am not fully satisfied, I will return the invoice marked "cancel" and have no further obligation."

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

If you ignore everything but what you quoted, then yeah it's shady. But you left out this part: "If I like Mac|Life, I will pay $19.95 for 11 more issues (12 in all). If I am not fully satisfied, I will return the invoice marked "cancel" and have no further obligation."

At first they say "no obligation", then it changes to "no further obligation". And you may well see it now, but as it may take 4-6 weeks to receive your copy, you may have forgotten that part and were hoping that they would remind you in due time. They know what they are doing, if they were honest, they would put an obvious way to cancel the subscription, like a checkbox or a warning on a prepaid business reply with your trial issue.

Like i said earlier, "This is your free trial issue, we remind you that if you want to continue receiving [...]" NOW it would be an appropriate place to include the warning. Memory is not perfect, people forget. If you make business capitalizing on people's mistakes, that is dishonest.

[jokell82]

If you see a bill in the mail, you don't ignore it and think it will just magically go away. THAT is your reminder - "Oops, I got an invoice for that magazine. Well I don't want it, so I'll just cancel."

How freaking hard is that?

[ort888]

Do you people live in TeePee's? Magazine's have been doing this for decades. Every magazine published uses this exact same deal.

Sure it may not be the most entirely honest way of doing things, but it is such a common ploy that anyone who falls prey to it deserves what they had coming.

I can't believe that this is still being discussed.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

If you ignore everything but what you quoted, then yeah it's shady. But you left out this part: "If I like Mac|Life, I will pay $19.95 for 11 more issues (12 in all). If I am not fully satisfied, I will return the invoice marked "cancel" and have no further obligation."

Wow, so there are two different parts that present two very different ideas. Hrm, I can't imagine why I said it seems intended to confuse people.

[Mrjinglesusa]

"There's no obligation". TRUE. You are NOT obligated to pay for 11 more issues. Just write cancel in the invoice. Done.

"There's no further obligation". TRUE. If you decide you don't want 11 more issues and write "cancel" on the invoice, there is no further obligation. Done.

I swear, some people have serious reading comprehension problems.