[CaptainHaddock]

Zzarg, it really sounds like the problem is not OS X but rather a flaky hardware component. No computer manufacturer is immune to products that occasionally develop problems, and even though Apple is one of the best, that's no consolation in your situation.

The most likely suspects are:
1. Defective RAM (swapping RAM modules can determine this)
2. Hard disk - occasion read/write problems will definitely cause spinning beach balls while the system waits for its data.
3. Faulty motherboard, which is having communication problems with the RAM or hard disk.

Testing 2 and 3 is going to be pain no matter what. There's also the possibility that dust or a bad fan could be allowing the Powerbook to overheat.

If your laptop is still under Applecare, definitely tell them to fix it. If you've had it for several years, it might just be time to acknowledge its years of service and start putting away money in your sock drawer for a new one.

As bad as your difficulties sound, I've been surrounded by other people's PCs the last few months, and the amount of grief those computers cause their owners is unbelievable. My one friend blew his last paycheck on an AMD-64 motherboard, and it conflicts unpredictably with his expensive Radeon card, causing it to reset itself several times a day.

[CubeWannaB]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
Zzarg, it really sounds like the problem is not OS X but rather a flaky hardware component.

As I pointed out in my post his problems are known bugs in OS X and they are being experienced by multiple Powerbook users.

For proof you only need to view the Apple.com powerbook discussion forums.

[analogika]

Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
It is my understanding that this is only a problem with monolithic kernels, not microkernels such as Mach, which OS X uses.

It is my understanding that you are wrong.

Badly written audio interface drivers, for example, can and will take down your system, as will the HP printer driver.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Randman:
My communication skills are exemplary, I assure you. My response, had you been following matters, was in response to an overall theme of responses from the original poster, in this thread and another, complaining of matters and saying he was going to go back to the PC fold.

In my humble estimation, that was the rudeness as the post happened in a public forum soliciting advice for a problem then becoming increasingly obstinate when informed that the majority of Mac users do no share his myopic view of computing nor have they experienced the depth of his current problem.

But I do thank you for your unsolicited suggestion on ways to hone and enhance my non-verbal skills. I shall endeavor to improve those said skills.

Your communication skills are very poor. You and Big Mac's attack on zzarg just because he's a switcher who would consider going back to windows if he couldn't solve his problems, says to me that you are both oversensitive about what platform people use and fear, for some pathetic reason andy positive said about windows.

Grow up. It's just a computer.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by zzarg:
wataru: Thanks for the suggestions. I have tried re-installing OSX .... went for 10.3 from scratch (10.2 was more stable but 10.3 works just a little bit better) and dutifully did the service pack thing again. It's weird but the issues with beachball frenzy and disappearing mouse have got worse since 10.3.7 and 10.3.8.... hence hoping 10.3.9 will un-break them at least back to earlier levels (hey, I can hope right ?!) I will try the 'repair permissions / run the combo updater / repair permissions' cycle tonight while watching Lost... I can only hope and keep trying...

The fact that the issues have gotten worse after reinstalling/upgrading is pretty much a dead-giveaway that you have bad RAM. Run the Apple Hardware Test that came with the machine--it may be able to help you figure out which one is bad. *After* removing the bad RAM module, you will still have to reinstall everything.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
As I pointed out in my post his problems are known bugs in OS X and they are being experienced by multiple Powerbook users.

For proof you only need to view the Apple.com powerbook discussion forums.

A lot of people have problems with bad RAM. This user is experiencing multiple issues. It's entirely possible that some are bugs in the OS and others are hardware issues. Let's figure out the hardware issues first.

[CubeWannaB]

Originally posted by Detrius:
A lot of people have problems with bad RAM. This user is experiencing multiple issues. It's entirely possible that some are bugs in the OS and others are hardware issues. Let's figure out the hardware issues first.

These three are known OS X problems:

• Mouse disappearing after sleep
• Screen staying blank after sleep
• Screen staying blank if an external monitor is removed

Having your mouse cursor disappear while the computer still works (so the dock zooms when the invisible cursor is over it) is one of the most frustrating and psychologically trying computer experiences I've ever had. I think these two could be anything, maybe bad ram, but even just random bugs that only seem worse because the first three are so prevalent:

• Increasing beachball occurrence (especially in Safari)
• Random freezes - different apps, different times, only thing that works is the Power Button

Also once bad ram has been replaced there is no reason to reinstall the OS. That's the most ridiculous suggestion yet in this thread.

[CubeWannaB]

Originally posted by analogika:
It is my understanding that you are wrong.

Badly written audio interface drivers, for example, can and will take down your system, as will the HP printer driver.

From developer.apple.com:

"Drivers for disks, network controllers, and keyboards, for example, reside in the kernel... Drivers for such devices as scanners and printers reside within user-space programs"

I/O Kit Fundamentals on developer.apple.com

[Telusman]

Originally posted by zzarg:
darn.... I wish it was that easy... no HP Printers here.... in fact, no printer connected to this machine (there is a Lexmark attached to the PC but I move files over to print 'em)

Are the HPs bad with OSX ? They're not that hot with Windows either (I prefer Lexmark for 'little' jobs and Epson for big / high quality stuff)

Well i've read about half this post, and frankly I've lost interest in the "are you a troll?" discussion, because I don't think you are. You are a geniune person who has spent many thousands of dollars on a peice of hardware and you expect it to work better than the sum of it's parts or the wintel machine you paid thousands less for.

I have a 3 year 3 month old PowerBook G4, Titanium 667, and I have had a few issues with it. I have to say all in all, my computing experience has been very pleasant over the course of 3 years. I have had kernel panics, I survived the 10.2.2 update, which hosed my system, I still think HP Drivers suck a whole lotta arse, especially when the HP communications software decides to take up 140% of the CPU when the printer isn't even plugged in, or when the system crashes without rhyme nor reason and I am forced to reboot.

I have to say that these most of events have only occured during the plugging in, or unplugging of peripherals or some other strange event, like my wacky wireless network deciding to go down for no apparent reason and the finder crashes. Rarely do i have any major problems like you're discussing. That being said, my mouse cursor does occasionally make itself invisible, and I end up just rubbing the track pad furiously and it comes back to life.

It's not unreasonable to expect a fix, although rare as the events may be they could be even rarer with a little more quality control, which is something Apple has lacked a bit of recently. I haven't had many problems but i bet there are and i imagine it has colored their perception of the platform and it's up to other mac people to help them out and give them suggestions, that way we can keep our user base. 3% isn't a lot, despite what you may think, we need all the help we can get.

[zzarg]

just as a quick update - I've tried running with no RAM, the original RAM and a fresh 512MB stick from the Apple store (loaner - even though I'm out of AppleCare now) ....
apart from running a lot slower without the RAM there's not much difference.
I've already had the logic board replaced (and in fact the whole machine replaced when it didn't help the Power Management problem I got in the first weeks)
Somewhere in the re-installs, creating new user from scratch, installing a pretty minimal set of apps and not plugging in an external monitor or any USB devices bar a mouse (oh, and my iPod) it's certainly got a lot more stable - just getting a couple of beachballs a day, and no disappearing mouse (that only seems to happen with the external monitor)
SMARTreporter says the disk is okay

Using Firefox rather than Safari seems to have helped a little (seems a combination of that and iTunes is one of the only consistent factors when the longer beachballs happen)

I am looking forward to 10.3.9 - it may give me back reliable abilities to sleep and use an external monitor.... then again, it may not - but I can hope Meantime it's stable enough and there's enough positive encouragement here and at the Apple store to keep me going until then

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by zzarg:
just as a quick update - I've tried running with no RAM

I bet that one was a little tough, eh?

Glad to hear you got some of the problems sorted out with a new user.

[zzarg]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
I bet that one was a little tough, eh?

Glad to hear you got some of the problems sorted out with a new user.

chuckle... meant just the standard 128MB that's soldered in !

[JKT]

Originally posted by zzarg:
Using Firefox rather than Safari seems to have helped a little (seems a combination of that and iTunes is one of the only consistent factors when the longer beachballs happen)

Given that sentence, I'd suggest downloading and running Memory Monitor for a while - it's a freeware "Dockling" that shows you your memory usage history in its Dock icon:



It sounds to me that you are periodically getting excessive paging (that is, your RAM is filling up causing the need to page it as Virtual Memory to your hard drive) which will cause the whole system to become slower and particular apps to beachball while the paging occurs. Whenever you see the beachball, you can check to see what is happening in Memory Monitor. If you see lots of paging that will explain why you are seeing the beachball. If bad paging is coincident with the slowdowns, you can mitigate them by getting more RAM (if you can) or by quitting any memory hungry apps that you aren't using to free up RAM for the frontmost app.

You can find Memory Monitor at versiontracker or macupdate.

[xMetal]

just to back up the original poster, I too have noticed abnormal behavior only very recently on my 17" PB along the lines of what he was seeing.

Several times now, if I put my PB to sleep at work (in it's normal config of having an external monitor and keyboard/mouse plugged in) unplug all that and take it home, when I go to wake it up the machine comes back on but the trackpad, mouse button, and keyboard do not react to inputs of any kind.

Restarting the machine fixes things.

This has only happened recently, (since going to 10.3.8) and I've not had that behavior ever in over 15 years of Mac-ing.

[buffalolee]

Originally posted by zzarg:

....
randman: And folks wonder why the Mac market never makes it above the 3% penetration... perhaps it's the attitude that "OSX is perfect and you're an idiot if you use Windows (or if you have problems with OSX you must be an idiot therefore please use Windows)" that puts people off.
....

I think when you stated "before I go back to the PC fold"....

Side #1: Randman side
It may have sounded sarcastic, insult, or a threat.

Side #2: Your side
A good plea for help because you switched over and this is a sore thumb you are experiencing.

Something to think about...

[lkrupp]

"before I get driven back to the PC fold"

You know if you had just left off the above few words none of this grief would be happening. Please consider it the next time you ask for help.

[analogika]

Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
From developer.apple.com:

"Drivers for disks, network controllers, and keyboards, for example, reside in the kernel... Drivers for such devices as scanners and printers reside within user-space programs"

I/O Kit Fundamentals on developer.apple.com

Okay, you're correct.

However, the fact that the HP printer driver resides in user space doesn't change the fact that the screen remains black upon waking, the fans goes into turbine mode, and the machine is, for all practical purposes, shot down until you kill it and reboot.

UNLESS of course you SSH in and kill the user's loginwindow. Technically, the system isn't actually down, it's merely that user's GUI that's dead.

That's effectively the same thing as a dead system, since that affects every user running the HP software. I'm not entirely sure why this should make a difference, or how exactly the OS should or could prevent this from happening, i.e. how this is an OS X problem rather than simply a royal ****-up on HP's part.

[mAxximo]

Originally posted by lkrupp:
"before I get driven back to the PC fold"

You know if you had just left off the above few words none of this grief would be happening. Please consider it the next time you ask for help.

If that's what he's feeling why should him?
I'd say if some people are going to get their feelings hurt by a few words like that then they better stay off internet forums.
OS X is a commercial product, not a religion.

[Boondoggle]

Originally posted by analogika:


Also, as far as kernel extensions are concerned (such as printer drivers), there is currently, to my knowledge, no way to proof a system against driver-induced crashes, since they *must* be loaded into the system stack.

Are Printer drivers kernel extensions? I thought not in OSX. My perusal of System/Extensions found no obvious printer drivers, just lower level stuff like USB, Firewire, Graphic chip support etc.

My experience with bad HP drivers was not crashing, but freezes brought on by resource hogging. At times I would have several HP Communicator threads running and that really bogged things down.

bd

[analogika]

Originally posted by Boondoggle:
Are Printer drivers kernel extensions? I thought not in OSX. My perusal of System/Extensions found no obvious printer drivers, just lower level stuff like USB, Firewire, Graphic chip support etc.

My experience with bad HP drivers was not crashing, but freezes brought on by resource hogging. At times I would have several HP Communicator threads running and that really bogged things down.

Both points were corrected/elaborated upon further down in the thread.