[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Thing is, to join in with that kind of activity requires a certain kind of attitude - and the attitude in question is "I can do what I want". This attitude is a result of not enough slaps. Or listening to too much Rage Against The Machine. Or both.

I agree. All I'm saying is that for the last 20 years not enough slaps have been handed out UP and down the system. When people see criminality and behaviour that damages society going unpunished they join in.

Not to be condoning rioting but the upper echelons of British society have raped and pillaged their way through the national wealth for the last 10 years, now the lower half is trying to join in. Once this underlying sense of injustice is smouldering away it becomes easy for people with more strident political motivation to step in and fan the flames until a riot breaks out.

More slaps for everybody. More accountability for everybody and more of a real sense of us all being in it together, rather than only the poorest having to shoulder economic cuts while the rich continue to get richer.

Not that I mind people getting richer, but getting richer in a way that causes society to crash will have repercussions.

[ghporter]

When SOME people see unpunished criminal behavior they join it. These people are the ones who have both insufficient discipline (enforced and self discipline) and a sense of entitlement, to which they add a sense of "no consequences for my actions," and BOOM! you have a rioter.

Slaps is a decent euphemism for what kids need, but not necessarily a firm definition. Some children take to firm but gentle guidance, while others require more drastic guidance. The key is that parents have to behave like parents, which is something that seems to be sadly lacking both in the UK and here in the US.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

I agree. All I'm saying is that for the last 20 years not enough slaps have been handed out UP and down the system. When people see criminality and behaviour that damages society going unpunished they join in.

I agree with that, however...

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

Not to be condoning rioting but the upper echelons of British society have raped and pillaged their way through the national wealth for the last 10 years, now the lower half is trying to join in. Once this underlying sense of injustice is smouldering away it becomes easy for people with more strident political motivation to step in and fan the flames until a riot breaks out.

...that's leftie crap spouted as an excuse by the usual suspects to the point where normal people like yourself believe it. While wrong, an MP claiming for a birdhouse on his expenses didn't kill anyone, nor leave anyone with a burnt-out shell where their business used to be. And anyway, who voted the government in for the last ten years? Lefties! I certainly didn't vote for the Blair and Brown team which sold all our gold, raided our pensions and decimated our manufacturing base.
So it's the usual crap: Vote lefties in, try to blame it on Thatcher or "the rich" when the policies of those lefties come home to roost.
Don't believe their lies.
And vote Tebbit!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

When SOME people see unpunished criminal behavior they join it.

Bustin' a cap, banging their ho's, hanging with their homies.
I'm betting that none of the rioters is in the Manowar fanclub.

I had a thought the other day (woah!). It's about sex. It's about being the alpha male in their little peer group. More criminality = more props = more access to the hottest bitches in their social circle.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Bustin' a cap, banging their ho's, hanging with their homies.
I'm betting that none of the rioters is in the Manowar fanclub.

More like the Man Utd fan club.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

More like the Man Utd fan club.

I know nothing of football, other than it being an event during which several thousand bald men gather to watch 22 underdressed effeminate men romp around a field for an hour and a half.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I know nothing of football, other than it being an event during which several thousand bald men gather to watch 22 underdressed effeminate men romp around a field for an hour and a half.

Digression alert : For some attractive football pictures, please GIS Larissa Riquelme

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Digression alert : For some attractive football pictures, please GIS Larissa Riquelme

Now see if there was more of those to the pound, there'd be much less rioting.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Digression alert : For some attractive football pictures, please GIS Larissa Riquelme

That is one healthy young lady.

A question for all of you here:

RE: Thugs. In Norf London, is it pronounced "Fugs". Just asking.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by finboy 

TRE: Thugs. In Norf London, is it pronounced "Fugs". Just asking.

Depends on the IQ of who's saying it.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I agree with that, however...



...that's leftie crap spouted as an excuse by the usual suspects to the point where normal people like yourself believe it. While wrong, an MP claiming for a birdhouse on his expenses didn't kill anyone, nor leave anyone with a burnt-out shell where their business used to be. And anyway, who voted the government in for the last ten years? Lefties! I certainly didn't vote for the Blair and Brown team which sold all our gold, raided our pensions and decimated our manufacturing base.
So it's the usual crap: Vote lefties in, try to blame it on Thatcher or "the rich" when the policies of those lefties come home to roost.
Don't believe their lies.
And vote Tebbit!

I don't think its got much to do with politics other than that politicians since the late 70's have bent over backwards to let corporations and wealthy individuals ride roughshod over any regulations designed to keep them in check. Lefties or Righties, it's all been pretty much the same.

It's not got much to do with duck houses either other than that being symptomatic of the same attitude of "grab what you can"

Duck house claims may not have robbed people of their homes and businesses but the behaviour of the city and banks certainly has done, in spades. The only reprimand that these people have been given is more bonuses, less tax and bigger salaries. The rest of society has carried the can. This naturally results in grievances. I certainly feel it. However I have too much to loose to riot, personally and financially. remove that restraint (as many rioters have had) and yes, I can see how easy it might be to get stuck in.

Perhaps this convergence of causes is the reason why the rioters come from such a diverse background compared to previous outbreaks of violence.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

Duck house claims may not have robbed people of their homes and businesses but the behaviour of the city and banks certainly has done, in spades. The only reprimand that these people have been given is more bonuses, less tax and bigger salaries.

Sorry Doc but you need to stop listening to lefties and their bullshit. The top tax rate has gone up 10% in recent years - how's that "less tax"?

[Big Mac]

Isn't the true problem that after playing around for around 70 years with various levels of Socialism, the West has run out of other people's money to fund big/enormous government and income redistribution? And the consequence of that is that the Entitlements Class is pissed off that their gravy train seems to be coming to an end?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Isn't the true problem that after playing around for around 70 years with various levels of Socialism, the West has run out of other people's money to fund big/enormous government and income redistribution? And the consequence of that is that the Entitlements Class is pissed off that their gravy train seems to be coming to an end?

Works well up here.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Works well up here.

Only because we provide the world with a standing police force.

(which we shouldn't be doing.)

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Only because we provide the world with a standing police force.

(which we shouldn't be doing.)

Police force may not help here.

'Flash mob' robs Maryland 7-Eleven in less than a minute, police say - CNN.com

[turtle777]

It's pretty clear that the UK has f*cked themselves with being soft on crime.

Joyce Lee Malcolm: The Soft-on-Crime Roots of British Disorder - WSJ.com

Here some nuggets:

Burglars who injured themselves breaking into houses have successfully sued homeowners for damages.

In February, police in Surrey told gardeners not to put wire mesh on the windows of their garden sheds as burglars might hurt themselves when they break in.

Tony Martin, an English farmer, was sentenced to life in prison for killing one burglar and wounding another with a shotgun during the seventh break-in at his rural home in 1999. While his sentence was later reduced to five years, he was refused parole in 2003 because he was judged a danger to burglars.

In 2008, a robber armed with a knife attacked shopkeeper Tony Singh in West Lancashire. During the struggle the intruder was fatally stabbed with his own knife. Although the robber had a long record of violent assault, prosecutors were preparing to charge Mr. Singh with murder until public outrage stopped them.

Police have been instructed by the British Home Office to let burglars and first-time offenders who confess to any of some 60 crimes—ranging from assault and arson to sex with an underage girl—off with a caution. That means no jail time, no fine, no community service, no court appearance.

consider the fate of Paul Clark, a former soldier. He was arrested in 2009 by Surrey police when he brought them a shotgun he found in his garden. For doing this personally—instead of asking the police to retrieve it—he received a five-year prison sentence.

using a knife for self-defense is unlawful.

In 1991, American tourist Dina Letarte of Tempe, Ariz., used a penknife to protect herself from a violent attack by three men in a London subway. She was convicted of carrying an offensive weapon, fined, and given a two-year suspended sentence.

WTF

Britain is mental. Serves them right to be crushed by rioters. Hopefully, they'll learn and repent from their stupidity.

-t

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Only because we provide the world with a standing police force.

(which we shouldn't be doing.)

Riiiiight. That's why, when the US was attacked on 9/11, the rest of the world came to help YOU fight the Taliban. YOU are protecting us? What a fncking joke.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Only because we provide the world with a standing police force.

(which we shouldn't be doing.)

HAHAHAHAHHAHA seriously do you really believe that crap.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Riiiiight. That's why, when the US was attacked on 9/11, the rest of the world came to help YOU fight the Taliban. YOU are protecting us? What a fncking joke.

Originally Posted by Athens 

HAHAHAHAHHAHA seriously do you really believe that crap.

Oh, I totally agree, we've done a cock-up job of it, "leaders of the free world" and all that shite. We need to just stop, leave everything else alone, and direct the defense money towards helping the US. Personally, I think a cut-back of 50% in defense would be fantastic. We'd just mothball all our bases on foreign soil, pull in all our troops that are in places where they don't belong, and let the UN deal with all that crap.

Oh, and we're only going to pay what the UK, France, and all the other security council nations pay. No more of that 22% of the UN budget rubbish. We're running a tight ship now, no more foreign aid to anyone either. It would be glorious.

[turtle777]

-t

[Athens]

Would make me happy and improve the world greatly. Would prob make the US safer from Terrorist attacks too. While your at it let Israel fend for itself. Personally I think the UN should be dissolved, its Nato doing most of the work around the world.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Sorry Doc but you need to stop listening to lefties and their bullshit. The top tax rate has gone up 10% in recent years - how's that "less tax"?

That's right. Which must be why the chancellor intends to scrap the 50% tax bracket then. Why? Because it generates insignificant revenue. Why? Because the wealthier just don't pay it.

There's no getting round the bald fact that despite the chaos, cuts, debt crisis and all the rich are considerably better off today than they were three years ago. And not by a small amount either.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

While your at it let Israel fend for itself.

That's what's kinda scary. Israel would own the ME, which is fine by me, really. We don't help them as much as keep them on a leash. Oh well, they want that whole sand pit, they're welcome to it.

[mattyb]

Interesting article in the Guardian.

And before anyone retorts with 'But its written in the Guardian!', one shouldn't just read paper X or website Y to get your news/reviews/opinions.

[Doofy]

It's bollocks Matt (as is usual for everything in the Grauniad). Just leftie diversion from the fact that the lefties have been far too soft on crime for a decade or so.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

There's no getting round the bald fact that despite the chaos, cuts, debt crisis and all the rich are considerably better off today than they were three years ago. And not by a small amount either.

How do you know this? Have you actually asked the rich if they're better off? Or did you get the information from some leftie source like the Grauniad or the Labour Party?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Interesting article in the Guardian.

And before anyone retorts with 'But its written in the Guardian!', one shouldn't just read paper X or website Y to get your news/reviews/opinions.

One would think this would be obvious, but there are so many tools roaming about, readily swallowing the regurgitated rhetoric of their handlers, that they may never get it.

[rambo47]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Yeah, there'd be lots more dead people, yay!
(Hint: the police and the population wouldn't be the only ones with guns.)

When the sleazeball looters make it a case of "them or me", I aim to make sure the survivor is "me". Threaten my life and you forfeit yours. Having said that, I believe in giving everyone a fair chance. My first round is a beanbag round, non-lethal. After that, however, it's 00-buck.

And no, there wouldn't be "lots more dead people". After you drop the first jackwagon the rest tend to scatter like cockroaches.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

One would think this would be obvious, but there are so many tools roaming about, readily swallowing the regurgitated rhetoric of their handlers, that they may never get it.

There's a BBC series out there called "World's Strictest Parents". It's currently on series 3. Go find it and watch it before you think you're eligible to comment on the causes of the UK riots.

Wait. Here you go - found it for you:
World's Strictest Parents - Texas (Part 1 of 6) [HD] - YouTube
World's Strictest Parents - Kenya (Part 1 of 6) - YouTube
These are not unusual kids - this is the regular for the youth of the UK.

[Waragainstsleep]

They have kids like that in the US too, its just they are allowed to shoot theirs more easily than we are.

[OldManMac]

More about the foolishness that the Tea Party is trying to induce. It's a fact that there is plenty of money in America; we're just spending it in the wrong places, and less and less people have more and more of that money, and the people that buy the majority of stuff that's produced, are pulling back, out of fear.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/08/17-5

[turtle777]

WTF does that have to do with thtis thread ?

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

They have kids like that in the US too, its just they are allowed to shoot theirs more easily than we are.

Caps

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

That's what's kinda scary. Israel would own the ME, which is fine by me, really. We don't help them as much as keep them on a leash. Oh well, they want that whole sand pit, they're welcome to it.

If the US stopped protecting Israel it would be ruined. While they might be able to win a war long term there wouldn't be much of a country left. And if anything they keep the US on a leash because of the US desire for a Middle east port and allies. Would prob spark WW3, nuclear war and well the rest is in the Bible. Maybe the US should charge fee's to those it protects to cover 100% of the costs of the protection.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

WTF does that have to do with thtis thread ?

-t

My bad; meant to post it in the thread about the debt ceiling nonsense!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens 

If the US stopped protecting Israel it would be ruined. While they might be able to win a war long term there wouldn't be much of a country left. And if anything they keep the US on a leash because of the US desire for a Middle east port and allies. Would prob spark WW3, nuclear war and well the rest is in the Bible. Maybe the US should charge fee's to those it protects to cover 100% of the costs of the protection.

Oh, there'd be nukes alright, they'd bomb the shit of some countries to keep from getting plowed. You don't f*** with Israel, they don't joke around.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

My bad; meant to post it in the thread about the debt ceiling nonsense!

Darn. I'd love to argue about how the UK riots are/are not the Tea Party's fault

-t

[Big Mac]

I wish that were true, Shaddim, except the country has been joking around since post Six Day War 1967 and weakening its territorial and foreign affairs position considerably with every passing decade - most dramatically so since the onset of the Oslo Accords with the PLO. And Netanyahu has repeatedly signaled that he expects the West to control Iran, not Israel; he's also now talking about conceding to Obama's overall vision, flip flopping on the ostensibly tough stance he held when he embarrassed the president in the Spring. Israel does joke around, unfortunately, and thousands of Israelis have suffered and died because of it with far more to come in the future, Ch'v"S, if the country doesn't fundamentally change course.

Ultimately that which is sent down from High will be so, as much as some of us want to fight against the effects.

[Athens]

And during the last short war, Israel suffered a lot of military causalities, more so then expected from the hands of just poorly armed rebels showing the weakening of training and lack of effectiveness of the forces. I seriously doubt Israel could survive intact with out US support.

[Shaddim]

Oh c'mon, you honestly think they wouldn't nuke the hell out of most Arab population centers if they were threatened with imminent destruction? The ME would be decimated, and then the world would be forced to find alternative fuels AND deal with nuclear winter.

[Doofy]

*cough*
Middle East thread is elsewhere.
*cough*

[Athens]

Isn't there enough Muslims in the UK to count the UK as part of the Middle East

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

*cough*
Middle East thread is elsewhere.
*cough*

I thought they relocated the ME to Birmingham? Looked that way when I was there last.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Athens 

And during the last short war, Israel suffered a lot of military causalities, more so then expected from the hands of just poorly armed rebels showing the weakening of training and lack of effectiveness of the forces. I seriously doubt Israel could survive intact with out US support.

Israel could survive without US support. Israel is both enriched and hobbled by US support because US support comes with many painful strings attached. The country would have taken or maintained a much harder line toward its enemies if not for obsequiousness toward US dictates. But you're also right that Israel is poorly equipped to fight in Arab civilian centers because even without US demands holding it back, the country is very fearful of world condemnation. I do think the IDF has shown that it has improved tactically at least somewhat, after its recent run-ins with Gaza, Lebanon and flotillas.

Even though I disagree with your assessment, I'm glad you've moderated your tone on the topic so that we can have some light conversation on it. I have no illusions about us becoming BFFs on the topic, but I think I'll probably take you off ignore soon, FWIW.