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Austin suicide flight
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starman
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Feb 18, 2010, 03:02 PM
 
Latest updates: Plane crashes into building in Austin, Texas - CNN.com

I don't know, I have to just shake my head when I see things like this. Big manifesto, and then goes out and kills a bunch of innocent people. F'n dumbass.

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Dork.
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Feb 18, 2010, 03:25 PM
 
At least now I understand this thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...-on-page-16-a/
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 18, 2010, 03:28 PM
 
What a goddamn asshole.
     
turtle777
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Feb 18, 2010, 03:52 PM
 
We need more people who are willing to die for this country.

Oh, wait, nevermind

-t
     
olePigeon
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Feb 18, 2010, 04:21 PM
 
Why is this not considered a terrorist action?
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
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you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Feb 18, 2010, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Why is this not considered a terrorist action?
Pending results of ethnicity. Duh.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:17 PM
 
Ha love it. Dude writes a suicide letter bashing the US gov and then smashes a plane into an IRS building but the headlines on CNN are "Not terrorist action".

Other than the scale of the plane, deaths and building and the ethicity of the pilot how is it different than 9/11?

I only read the first couple pages and the last but he seems pretty normal, sane and smart to me:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/im...ack.letter.pdf
     
Big Mac
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:36 PM
 

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
At least now I understand this thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...-on-page-16-a/
Can I get a Hat Trick?
     
turtle777
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Other than the scale of the plane, deaths and building and the ethicity of the pilot how is it different than 9/11?


That's a lot of "Other thans".

Reminds me of this:

Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they [the Romans] ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist: And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias: And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.

(more general murmurs of agreement)
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
Xerxes: Brought peace!
Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Peace, yes... shut up!



-t
     
dedalus
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Latest updates: Plane crashes into building in Austin, Texas - CNN.com

I don't know, I have to just shake my head when I see things like this. Big manifesto, and then goes out and kills a bunch of innocent people. F'n dumbass.
Erm, what? According to the link you posted, he doesn’t seem to have killed anyone.

Two people were injured and one person was missing, local officials said. There were no reported deaths.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:50 PM
 
Still, that undeniably was his intent.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:53 PM
 
So if you are white, have a grudge against the government and leave hate notes, trash ones of their buildings it doesn't' count as terrorism, why?

What's the body count gotta be before it is?
     
Doofy
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Feb 18, 2010, 05:55 PM
 
OK, I'm bored, so here's one for ya.

Government killed him. Put his body in a small plane, which they then flew by remote into a building which had already been alerted that something was going to happen (hence no major casualties when the place should have been full at that time of the morning).
Just so they can clamp down on the "anarchists" and take more of your freedoms away (in order to prevent things like this happening in future).

I joke. Probably.
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Doofy
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
So if you are white, have a grudge against the government and leave hate notes, trash ones of their buildings it doesn't' count as terrorism, why?
It's only terrorism if the powers that be can identify a third party country with oil which nurtured the perp, silly.
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King Bob On The Cob
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:12 PM
 
Terrorism is if he was trying to convince the IRS to change their ways via intimidation. Since he was a lone agent, this is more akin to first degree attempted murder-suicide. I think he just wanted out and to take out some of the people who had made him angry in his life rather than a political act designed to keep people on edge.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:19 PM
 
More gun control is sooo two years ago. Now we need air plane control!

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analogue SPRINKLES
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob View Post
Terrorism is if he was trying to convince the IRS to change their ways via intimidation.
Oh since it is just one guy one act it doesn't count even though his actions and message could motivate others to do the same.

What if an group formed after this guy and called themselves Texans with Planes in his honour and did the same to other buildings.

Does it count then?
     
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:35 PM
 
Why do you care what people call it? Isn't it enough that he did what he did?
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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hyteckit
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:41 PM
 
I would call it domestic terrorism.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Feb 18, 2010, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
More gun control is sooo two years ago. Now we need air plane control!
The air space is regulated. If it weren't, we would have more terrorist attacks by plane.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
torsoboy
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Feb 18, 2010, 11:58 PM
 
I don't mind him running into the IRS building, but he should have done it at night so the whole place could have burned down, and no one would have been hurt (assuming the night watchman wasn't right where the plane hit).

To me, it wasn't terrorism. It was one guy that got tired of all the crap the IRS had given him (and everyone), and he just had a breakdown and did something stupid.
     
el chupacabra
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Feb 19, 2010, 02:56 AM
 
god there's a lot of brain washed lemmings in here. is there really this many people that don't know the definition of terrorism?

Its not terrorism because he didn't do it to incite fear in people. The guys dead, hes not scaring anyone now; nobody is afraid of him. Look up the word terrorize.

911 had a motive to-terrorize people to accomplish an objective and is backed by a group still in operating order.
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analogue SPRINKLES
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Feb 19, 2010, 04:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
god there's a lot of brain washed lemmings in here. is there really this many people that don't know the definition of terrorism?

Its not terrorism because he didn't do it to incite fear in people. The guys dead, hes not scaring anyone now; nobody is afraid of him. Look up the word terrorize.

911 had a motive to-terrorize people to accomplish an objective and is backed by a group still in operating order.
1. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
CHECK

2. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
CHECK
     
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Feb 19, 2010, 08:17 AM
 
Stack's "political purpose" was hardly broad enough to suggest that he was intending to coerce anyone. He wasn't trying to change anything but his perceived persecution by the IRS. He wanted to hurt people because he felt they hurt him. Not terrorism. Revenge.

In any case, his online diatribe pretty well demonstrates that he was no political fanatic. He was cracked. Believing that a government entity (made up of run-of-the-mill people just doing their day to day jobs) was some "Big Brother" looking over his shoulder at every turn is a strong indicator of paranoia. He seems to have felt this way for a long time. Instead of finding some way to manage his finances and avoid high tax bills, he decided he was going to try to kill as many people as possible.

In fact he has killed himself and at least one other person (whose body was removed from the building) and critically burned at least two others. He successfully committed murder. He did not use his airplane to terrorize anyone-he used it to kill and maim a few people. On the scale of terrorism, he's a negative number.

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Feb 19, 2010, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's only terrorism if the powers that be can identify a third party country with oil which nurtured the perp, silly.
Pretty much spot on.


I would add "It's only terrorism when Muslims are in the cockpit". Otherwise, this guy is just a freedom-fighter opposed to the oppression of his individual liberties by a domineering government agency. Oh yeah, and he's white. White people are never terrorists.

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turtle777
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Feb 19, 2010, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Believing that a government entity (made up of run-of-the-mill people just doing their day to day jobs) was some "Big Brother" looking over his shoulder at every turn is a strong indicator of paranoia.
run-of-the-mill people ?

I think you're way overestimating the government here...

-t
     
Doofy
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Feb 19, 2010, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
He wanted to hurt people because he felt they hurt him. Not terrorism. Revenge.
Not revenge. Making a point - some kind of martyr.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
In any case, his online diatribe pretty well demonstrates that he was no political fanatic.
Really? He looks like a raving leftie who's always had a political problem to me - as demonstrated by his attempt to form a religion back in his college days. You'll note that he didn't do this for profit, but to make a point about religious institutions being exempt from taxation.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Believing that a government entity (made up of run-of-the-mill people just doing their day to day jobs) was some "Big Brother" looking over his shoulder at every turn is a strong indicator of paranoia.
Or a strong indicator of situational awareness.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
He seems to have felt this way for a long time. Instead of finding some way to manage his finances and avoid high tax bills, he decided he was going to try to kill as many people as possible.
That's because he was into making political statements. He attempted to do it with his little "religious organisation" and he did it yesterday.
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downinflames68
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Feb 19, 2010, 10:06 AM
 
I would call him a patriot. Read his paper. What he wrote MAKES SENSE; what happens with the catholic church, GM, and our government does not. He took a stand, lost, and then gave a final **** you to the massive powers that continue to **** ALL OF US over. I'm glad he did it. As for the IRS workers being innocent, I consult you back to this conversation:

YouTube - Clerks Clip - Jedi Politics
     
paul w
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Feb 19, 2010, 10:29 AM
 
You justify the death of people with a ****ing youtube link? Make a f*cking levelheaded argument for once in your life asshole.

Just because the IRS is evil doesn't mean citizens have the right to acts of vigilantism or terrorism or whatever it is that causes other people to be dead.
     
turtle777
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Feb 19, 2010, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Just because the IRS is evil doesn't mean citizens have the right to acts of vigilantism or terrorism or whatever it is that causes other people to be dead.
In your opinion, what line does a government have to cross so its citizens can rightfully use violent actions as a means to protest ?

Because surely, a government turning tyrannical will make all kinds of things illegal, so at some point, you need to stop using existing laws as the rightful boundaries.

-t
     
Doofy
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Feb 19, 2010, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Just because the IRS is evil doesn't mean citizens have the right to acts of vigilantism or terrorism or whatever it is that causes other people to be dead.
You should stick that on a big banner on July 14th.
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:05 AM
 
There's that whole "by the people for the people" bit, and the fact that the IRS is only evil because the people who think so decided NOT to go into politics themselves (as they were free to) to actually change things.

So long as the government doesn't actively eliminate dissidents (as opposed to the ****ing morons eliminating themselves), there's little justification for violence.
     
turtle777
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
So long as the government doesn't actively eliminate dissidents (as opposed to the ****ing morons eliminating themselves), there's little justification for violence.
So, limiting freedom of speech and completely undermining the Constitution would not justify it ?
How about taxation w/o representation ?

I'm glad the founding fathers didn't follow that advice, or the US would still be under British rule.

-t
     
turtle777
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:12 AM
 
Let me expand on my point:

IMO, we are back at taxation w/o representation in the US.

You have a vote, but it counts nothing. No matter who you vote for, that person will become a scumbag in Washington that's ripping you off. What's the point of that vote then ?

Edit: here some data to back up my point: Uh, This Is Not Good - The Market Ticker

Originally Posted by Denninger Market ticker
Originally Posted by Rasmussen
The founding document of the United States, the Declaration of Independence, states that governments derive “their just powers from the consent of the governed.” Today, however, just 21% of voters nationwide believe that the federal government enjoys the consent of the governed.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 61% disagree and say the government does not have the necessary consent. Eighteen percent (18%) of voters are not sure.
Uh, there is no way for Washington DC to force people to believe they have given consent. They can only act in a fashion that engenders willfully-given consent.

In light of what happened today in Austin TX, this ought to be resulting in sobering reflection among the "political class." It won't, but it should.

Why?

Historians have estimated that between 15 and 20 percent of the white population of the colonies were Loyalists.[2] Historian Robert Middlekauff estimates that about 500,000 colonists, or 19 percent of the white population, remained loyal to Britain.[3]
I had no idea the numbers were this bad at present, but I was aware that in 1776 about 20% of the population was in fact in support of Britain.
-t
( Last edited by turtle777; Feb 19, 2010 at 11:27 AM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Let me expand on my point:

IMO, we are back at taxation w/o representation in the US.

You have a vote, but it counts nothing. No matter who you vote for, that person will become a scumbag in Washington that's ripping you off. What's the point of that vote then ?
So enough people who never voted before went to the ballots, and suddenly some black guy's president.

Shouldn't that be enough to convince a couple more people that votes *do* count if you get enough of them together? Okay, the electoral college falling 100% in the direction of the state's majority (which, IIRC, is not due to any legal or constitutional necessity, but mere habit) tends to hide the alternate votes at the presidential level. But there's rather more to the US political system than the president.

And if you find you have hardly anybody who has integrity, run yourself, or vote for the one guy that does. If enough people do, he will win.

Heck, Schwarzenegger's governator.

How the hell did that happen?
     
Doofy
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
So long as the government doesn't actively eliminate dissidents (as opposed to the ****ing morons eliminating themselves), there's little justification for violence.
So you're OK with government passively* eliminating dissidents?

(* This would be via instruments such as the IRS cutting the financial legs out from under anyone who doesn't agree with the chosen line.)
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turtle777
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Shouldn't that be enough to convince a couple more people that votes *do* count if you get enough of them together? Okay, the electoral college falling 100% in the direction of the state's majority (which, IIRC, is not due to any legal or constitutional necessity, but mere habit) tends to hide the alternate votes at the presidential level. But there's rather more to the US political system than the president.
The Electoral College is not bound by the votes AT ALL.

100% of the people in a given State could vote Independent, and the Electoral College could legally cast the votes for Democrat or Republican.

Fact is, a corrupted system will always be very creative in keeping itself in power, including abusing power and rewriting laws. There is no doubt that the Constitution today is not even worth sh!t when it comes to guiding the politicians and the government.

The country has been hijacked by a political class.

-t
     
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Feb 19, 2010, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
Let me expand on my point:

IMO, we are back at taxation w/o representation in the US.

You have a vote, but it counts nothing. No matter who you vote for, that person will become a scumbag in Washington that's ripping you off. What's the point of that vote then ?
What would be the point of violence then? In my mind, violence, to be legitimate, has to be working toward some declared purpose more clearly than smashing a plane into a building.

The intent of those behind the American Revolution was first to convince Britain to recognize the rights they felt they were already entitled to as British subjects, and then when that failed, to establish a new form of government that would protect their "inalienable" rights. If your feeling is that the government is ignoring your rights as an American, I think that SH is correct in saying that you have many nonviolent options for addressing your grievance that the founders did not have with respect to the British Parliament or Crown. If your feeling is that the problem is really the current structure, not implementation, of government, then perhaps the threshold for violence is lower.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; Feb 19, 2010 at 11:41 AM. )

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Feb 19, 2010, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
The air space is regulated. If it weren't, we would have more terrorist attacks by plane.


We knew it would come to this. Like the tool from SPLC on Matthews last night saying that they didn't have anything on this guy in Austin "in their files" and didn't know anything about him, but his modus was consistent with "Right-wing extremists".

I don't know about you, but the SPLC having "files" on people scares me more than lone sickos with access to airplanes. Maybe we need waiting periods and background checks to get a pilot's license.

Better yet, they should just run all the applications through ME. Personally. I can screen with the best of 'em.
     
paul w
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Feb 19, 2010, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
In your opinion, what line does a government have to cross so its citizens can rightfully use violent actions as a means to protest ?

Because surely, a government turning tyrannical will make all kinds of things illegal, so at some point, you need to stop using existing laws as the rightful boundaries.

-t
I'm sorry, I forget killing other people was back on the table for getting things accomplished or making a point. Or something. Nevermind.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You should stick that on a big banner on July 14th.
I'm a taxpaying American citizen, buddy. What does France's national holiday have to do with argument.
( Last edited by ThinkInsane; Feb 19, 2010 at 05:58 PM. Reason: No need for name calling)
     
paul w
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Feb 19, 2010, 03:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
What would be the point of violence then? In my mind, violence, to be legitimate, has to be working toward some declared purpose more clearly than smashing a plane into a building.

The intent of those behind the American Revolution was first to convince Britain to recognize the rights they felt they were already entitled to as British subjects, and then when that failed, to establish a new form of government that would protect their "inalienable" rights. If your feeling is that the government is ignoring your rights as an American, I think that SH is correct in saying that you have many nonviolent options for addressing your grievance that the founders did not have with respect to the British Parliament or Crown. If your feeling is that the problem is really the current structure, not implementation, of government, then perhaps the threshold for violence is lower.
I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. I guess that makes me a pussy commie socialist anti-patriot.
     
turtle777
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Feb 19, 2010, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
I'm sorry, I forget killing other people was back on the table for getting things accomplished or making a point. Or something. Nevermind.
Is this supposed to be an answer to my question ?

And where did I say killing people is the only way of active protest ?

At any rate, maybe you just got used to being ass-raped, and don't consider this a nuisance anymore.

-t
     
paul w
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Feb 19, 2010, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Is this supposed to be an answer to my question ?

And where did I say killing people is the only way of active protest ?

At any rate, maybe you just got used to being ass-raped, and don't consider this a nuisance anymore.

-t
ass-raped? Anyway other have already articulated the the point well enough that I need not add anymore to this discussion.
     
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Feb 19, 2010, 06:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
You justify the death of people with a ****ing youtube link? Make a f*cking levelheaded argument for once in your life asshole.

Just because the IRS is evil doesn't mean citizens have the right to acts of vigilantism or terrorism or whatever it is that causes other people to be dead.
As one of our esteemed senior members once pointed out in his signature, ‘The government is there for the people; not the other way around.’

Mr. Stack struck back against an unjust mechanism, I think he should be applauded for that. The IRS is part of a tax‑funded system, thus they are to be held accountable by the taxpayer. He’s held them to account.

There is no reason for the IRS to exist in the first place. As Ron Paul pointed out quite eloquently, the whole federal income tax thing is nothing but a criminal racket.
     
imitchellg5
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Feb 19, 2010, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
There is no reason for the IRS to exist in the first place. As Ron Paul pointed out quite eloquently, the whole federal income tax thing is nothing but a criminal racket.
Then how are they going to pay the bills?
     
stevesnj
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Feb 19, 2010, 07:15 PM
 
The guy was mentally ill. He either couldn't pay taxes he owed or was going to jail for not paying taxes. So instead of doing either he wanted to make a 'statement' to the IRS about taxes. Instead of doing it with a picket sign he did it with violence. Not a terrorist just a nut. Some of you wacko's make it more complicated than it has to be. I bet it will come out he was going to go to jail or something.
MacBook Pro 15" i7 ~ Snow Leopard ~ iPhone 4 - 16Gb
     
imitchellg5
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Feb 19, 2010, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
I would call him a patriot. Read his paper. What he wrote MAKES SENSE; what happens with the catholic church, GM, and our government does not. He took a stand, lost, and then gave a final **** you to the massive powers that continue to **** ALL OF US over. I'm glad he did it. As for the IRS workers being innocent, I consult you back to this conversation:

YouTube - Clerks Clip - Jedi Politics
Can I acquaint you with the phrase "massive jerk?" Fine if you agree with what he wrote, but you're glad he did it?

Even if you consider the IRS to be a terrible organization, it's terribly inappropriate to rebut a non-violent policy with killing.

What's next? Killing forum members who buy SUVs?
     
dedalus
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Feb 19, 2010, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Then how are they going to pay the bills?
What are these ‘bills’ you speak of, sir?
     
imitchellg5
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Feb 19, 2010, 07:40 PM
 
Well... the government isn't exactly free to run.
     
 
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