Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Does sexuality evolve?

Does sexuality evolve? (Page 2)
Thread Tools
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yeah, but no offense, you seem like a somewhat unstable and inordinately grouchy person, most of the time. Having rugrats isn't for everyone, of course, but most do love theirs. (He types, as his little girl throws cereal at him. )
I don't disagree with any of that. I wouldn't say I'm inordinately grouchy, but I'm often referred to as a lovable prick by those in my monkey-sphere. And I sort of said the same thing about kids. I don't see the appeal, but I have a great deal of respect for those that make the sacrifices required to be a "good" parent.

With a lot of work and a bit of luck, society is served well. Sometimes biology shakes things up, your offspring is severely schizophrenic and I say "**** YOU" for making that. It's the circle of life.

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
I don't see the appeal, but I have a great deal of respect for those that make the sacrifices required to be a "good" parent.


I've noticed that people with kids sometimes think that being childfree is a personal insult to them. I have a great deal of respect and pride for my friends who are parents, because they are really good parents.

I also have a great deal of respect for my friends who have served in the military - it doesn't mean I'm going to join the Marines, though. (That's another situation where "you don't know until you try" would be under the "wrong things to say" category.)
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 11:46 AM
 
Like I said, mad props to those who choose to put up a good fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJlV49RDlLE

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
It's not necessarily selfish to decide to not have children.
Nobody was saying that.

Another thing to note is that during and after pregnancy, there are chemical and hormonal shifts in both the mother and father. Trying to "logic" the feelings, actions, and perceptions of expecting or new parents is like trying to logic someone suffering from depression - it's a change in brain chemestry. Someone on the outside saying "it's bullshit that you're saying I can't understand parenthood" is like someone saying to a depressed person, "why don't you just decide to feel better?"
( Last edited by Laminar; Sep 5, 2013 at 07:22 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:22 PM
 
The contrary: if you think you indulge in selfishness, a kid can cure that.

At the same time, I've found that the biggest change is actually that I've learned a sort of healthy selfishness: where I used to go above and beyond out of imagined or out-of-place loyalty and never see anything for it, I've learned to assess situations and assign priorities and values to action: time I need to spend away from my daughter better be spent wisely. I choose my jobs and perceived obligations with care. I've also surrounded myself with people who appreciate what I do (for them) and reciprocate appropriately. I tolerate "assholes" only when I can gain a clear advantage from them β€” an attitude which also robs them of power over me.

In short, having a kid is teaching me to grow the **** up.


Also, there *is* a logic to depression. It's partially a chemical imbalance (and can be induced by a plain bodily malfunction), but it's also a self-inducing mechanism/cycle that often gets started psychologically, through self-protective behavior in early childhood (three or four years of age) or later on in life. It's not unlike an addiction β€” severe cases may need to be treated chemically to help break the cycle, but not necessarily.
Having a kid can go both ways, depending upon how far along in life the (formerly) depressive person is.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:31 PM
 
Having a puppy teaches you to grow up, too. So does having a live-in partner (or getting married).

Both of the above require you to be far less selfish than you would be as a single adult living on your own. The way your spend your time changes, there's someone else you have to consider when you make choices, etc.

In fact, if you can't handle a puppy, you most definitely shouldn't be having children. It's a much more short-lived litmus test of your responsibility and capabilities to be an adult.

Ask any woman in her 30s and older who's decided not to have children - I'd bet money (if I had any) that she's been told, multiple times, that she's selfish for refusing to have children. It's a pretty commonly-held opinion, even if nobody right here is explicitly saying it out loud.

The Childfree Life - TIME
The Weekly Standard's Jonathan V. Last has made the case in his controversial book What to Expect When No One's Expecting that the selfishness of the childless American endangers our economic future by reducing the number of consumers and taxpayers.
The choice to be child-free is admirable, not selfish | Jill Filipovic | Comment is free | theguardian.com
As for the actual words of child-free women, "the reasons couples give for avoiding parenthood are deeply, deeply lame"; remaining child-free by choice "is most definitely selfish", not to mention "anti-religion, anti-family, [and] counter-cultural".
LifeSiteNews Mobile | TIME Magazine asks: who needs kids, anyway?
Whether it’s bad or wrong or what, it is most definitely selfish.
In our opinion: Time magazine's deceptive fantasy of the child-free life | Deseret News
That Time magazine would suggest the child-free life as a path to fulfillment suggests that it has shifted from offering up news and analysis to hawking deceptive fantasy.
That final quote is particularly arrogant: the conclusion is that you cannot be fulfilled in life without children, or, in more general terms, "your life isn't as good as mine because you don't make the same choices I do".
( Last edited by shifuimam; Sep 5, 2013 at 07:41 PM. )
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:37 PM
 
Having a kid is not unlike having a dog, up to a point, you're right.

Puppies never grow up beyond what kids reach within about a year, though.

A kid will keep challenging you to take a clear stance in new ways, to grow and clarify, for twenty years. A dog will never question you. A kid will, and you better know what you're about when it does.

I didn't.

I do now.


That Louis C K thing up there is bullshit, IMO. Every kid deserves an answer. My kid learned from Day One that there are reasons why things happen, or why they're necessary. Even when she didn't understand the reason as I explained it, it was obvious that she understood that there WAS a reason. She learned that nothing we did was without reason. She ended up getting cold feet in sub-zero weather when she threw a tantrum over putting on her boots. She never questioned our authority on that afterwards. (Though we let her convince us all the time if she feel like arguing and actually puts up the better argument β€” if there's time. )
If she asks us something (like that "why?" thing he mentions), she'll get an answer. That answer may be "well, what do you think?", or it may be "I really don't know. Let's see if we can find out when we get home!"
Maybe we were just really, really lucky, but our kid has turned out eminently reasonable, for a six-year-old.

Let's see how well we all fare when she's sixteen...
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:40 PM
 
Fortunately I've been able to figure out what I'm about without bringing a child into the world. I didn't find a need to wait for a petulant child to question my beliefs before I figured out what they were and why I believed them.

Huh.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Someone on the outside saying "it's bullshit that you're saying I can't understand parenthood"
That's not what anyone is saying here. If you've extrapolated that conclusion from what people like myself and pooki have said, that's on you.

What I'm trying to get across is that parenthood is not the only way to live a fulfilling life. It's not the only path to enlightenment. It's not the only means to live an unselfish life of putting others before yourself. It's not the only way to "grow up".

The other, more critical piece, is that while I don't understand parenthood because I'm not a parent (and I'm not denying this at all; I can't possibly understand why anyone would want to be a parent simply because I have such a strong desire to AVOID parenthood), that doesn't mean that I need to be a parent to make a decision about the effect children would have on my life.

As I have stressed multiple times, having a child when you don't know for a fact that you genuinely want children can be - and many times is - extremely detrimental to the child, your partner, and yourself.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:48 PM
 
I agree.

You're not me. I'm just trying to explain my experience.

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Fortunately I've been able to figure out what I'm about without bringing a child into the world. I didn't find a need to wait for a petulant child to question my beliefs before I figured out what they were and why I believed them.

Huh.
I'm not sure I fully believe you, but if that's so, I'd say you were luckier than I was.

Hell, maybe you are. More power to you.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 5, 2013, 07:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
That's not what anyone is saying here. If you've extrapolated that conclusion from what people like myself and pooki have said, that's on you.

What I'm trying to get across is that parenthood is not the only way to live a fulfilling life. It's not the only path to enlightenment. It's not the only means to live an unselfish life of putting others before yourself. It's not the only way to "grow up".

The other, more critical piece, is that while I don't understand parenthood because I'm not a parent (and I'm not denying this at all; I can't possibly understand why anyone would want to be a parent simply because I have such a strong desire to AVOID parenthood), that doesn't mean that I need to be a parent to make a decision about the effect children would have on my life.

As I have stressed multiple times, having a child when you don't know for a fact that you genuinely want children can be - and many times is - extremely detrimental to the child, your partner, and yourself.
Makes sense.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
In short, having a kid is teaching me to grow the **** up.
See, this isn't helping. Maybe you don't mean to imply that being childless means you don't "grow the ****-up" but its certainly looming over the conversation to me.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
See, this isn't helping. Maybe you don't mean to imply that being childless means you don't "grow the ****-up" but its certainly looming over the conversation to me.
Whom is it not helping?

Do childless people have this complex about everybody else somehow trying to convince them to have children?

I'm just trying to explain my experience.
My life has a pervasive sense of purpose that it did not have before. YMMV.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Whom is it not helping?
It's not helping the stereotype of parents sounding condescending to the childless.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Do childless people have this complex about everybody else somehow trying to convince them to have children?
On a personal level, not myself, no, but there is a feeling that it is frowned upon or disappointing on a societal level (much like not marrying, as well).

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm just trying to explain my experience.
My life has a pervasive sense of purpose that it did not have before. YMMV.
Your life having purpose and "growing the **** up" seem like to two completely different events to me. I didn't say anything about the former.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Do childless people have this complex about everybody else somehow trying to convince them to have children?
I urge you to read the articles I posted above.

The social stigmatization of people who voluntarily choose to not have children has been around for a very long time. Many women who choose not to have children are very uncomfortable when their peers find out about that choice, because it is so ingrained in society that "then comes marriage, then comes the baby in the baby carriage", so to speak.

This isn't something I'm just pulling out of my ass for the lulz. It's a very real problem that childfree women and couples face.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
On a personal level, not myself, no, but there is a feeling that it is frowned upon or disappointing on a societal level (much like not marrying, as well).
It's also worth noting that men don't experience the same discrimination and stigmatization that women experience. Men don't spend their time asking each other "when are you going to have kids?" - women do. There's the idea that in order to be 100% a woman, you need to give birth. It's part of the female experience, apparently.

When a couple gets married, I doubt that the men are pestered by family members, friends, and coworkers about having a baby nearly as frequently as the wives are. You might hear a "but I want grandchildren!" from your mom once in awhile, but that's nothing compared to the pressure married women face to have children. It's even worse in religious communities, where bearing children is seen as a Biblical mandate from God.

Also, this:

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The contrary: if you think you indulge in selfishness, a kid can cure that.
You do realize that if a child "cures selfishness" this should be incidental and secondary to actually having a child, right? Did you have a child in order to give your life purpose?
( Last edited by shifuimam; Sep 6, 2013 at 11:08 AM. )
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 02:47 PM
 
I think that most of us who question those who say they don't want kids do it based on one of a few scenarios, all of which are tied intrinsically to our own desires and life experiences and none of which are meant as an offense or to support any perceived social stigma surrounding the topic.

1. The desire to have children is/was so deeply ingrained in us that it is extremely difficult to understand how anyone would intentionally chose not to. This makes us genuinely interested in finding out why you feel the way you do. Sorry if you've been asked the question a hundred times, but we haven't yet gotten a satisfactory answer so will keep on asking. We can't help it.

2. There was a time when we didn't want to have children, but we changed our mind. As such, we can't help but feel that there's a good chance that others will eventually change their mind as well so when you are insistent that you don't want to be a parent we can't help but say something along the lines of "You never know, things change!" or "Just wait, I felt the same thing X number of years ago!". These are just conversation pieces, don't read too much into them.

3. We care about you and don't want you to be the person who looks back, later in life, with regret. Many, if not most, of us have probably known or will know someone who didn't realize that they wanted children until it was too late and are now filled with an emptiness they can't cure. We find this incredibly sad, because we know how much joy children can bring, and wouldn't wish that regret for anyone.

Incidentally, this isn't something that is only directed at women. My brother is insistent that he doesn't want kids and so is my best friend. They both hear about it as much as any women I know do.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
I think that most of us who question those who say they don't want kids do it based on one of a few scenarios, all of which are tied intrinsically to our own desires and life experiences and none of which are meant as an offense or to support any perceived social stigma surrounding the topic.

1. The desire to have children is/was so deeply ingrained in us that it is extremely difficult to understand how anyone would intentionally chose not to. This makes us genuinely interested in finding out why you feel the way you do. Sorry if you've been asked the question a hundred times, but we haven't yet gotten a satisfactory answer so will keep on asking. We can't help it.

2. There was a time when we didn't want to have children, but we changed our mind. As such, we can't help but feel that there's a good chance that others will eventually change their mind as well so when you are insistent that you don't want to be a parent we can't help but say something along the lines of "You never know, things change!" or "Just wait, I felt the same thing X number of years ago!". These are just conversation pieces, don't read too much into them.

3. We care about you and don't want you to be the person who looks back, later in life, with regret. Many, if not most, of us have probably known or will know someone who didn't realize that they wanted children until it was too late and are now filled with an emptiness they can't cure. We find this incredibly sad, because we know how much joy children can bring, and wouldn't wish that regret for anyone.

Incidentally, this isn't something that is only directed at women. My brother is insistent that he doesn't want kids and so is my best friend. They both hear about it as much as any women I know do.
Most of this sounds okay, though I assume "I'm too selfish" is sufficient explanation for why.

OTOH, I've had people get mad I don't have kids, because to them I'm not doing my duty for the future of society.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
I think that most of us who question those who say they don't want kids do it based on one of a few scenarios, all of which are tied intrinsically to our own desires and life experiences and none of which are meant as an offense or to support any perceived social stigma surrounding the topic.

1. The desire to have children is/was so deeply ingrained in us that it is extremely difficult to understand how anyone would intentionally chose not to. This makes us genuinely interested in finding out why you feel the way you do. Sorry if you've been asked the question a hundred times, but we haven't yet gotten a satisfactory answer so will keep on asking. We can't help it.

2. There was a time when we didn't want to have children, but we changed our mind. As such, we can't help but feel that there's a good chance that others will eventually change their mind as well so when you are insistent that you don't want to be a parent we can't help but say something along the lines of "You never know, things change!" or "Just wait, I felt the same thing X number of years ago!". These are just conversation pieces, don't read too much into them.

3. We care about you and don't want you to be the person who looks back, later in life, with regret. Many, if not most, of us have probably known or will know someone who didn't realize that they wanted children until it was too late and are now filled with an emptiness they can't cure. We find this incredibly sad, because we know how much joy children can bring, and wouldn't wish that regret for anyone.

Incidentally, this isn't something that is only directed at women. My brother is insistent that he doesn't want kids and so is my best friend. They both hear about it as much as any women I know do.
Let me put it this way: Take your entire post and instead of it being about why someone didn't want children, insert why they didn't want to be Christian. That's why it's annoying.

TBH I don't get that from my friends, hell a few are like "Don't". But its those people that seem to pity you that are infuriating. Or the entire "You don't know!" thing.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:01 PM
 
How dare people say they're happier now that they have kids. Those bastards! If people simply talking about how fulfilled they are, now that they have kids, makes you upset, then you have issues. That's on you, not them.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
How dare people say they're happier now that they have kids. Those bastards! If people simply talking about how fulfilled they are, now that they have kids, makes you upset, then you have issues. That's on you, not them.
Who are you talking to?
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
OTOH, I've had people get mad I don't have kids, because to them I'm not doing my duty for the future of society.
Unless it's your mom, because moms almost always want grandkids (mine applied pressure on me for over 20 years), I think you could be blowing that out of proportion.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Let me put it this way: Take your entire post and instead of it being about why someone didn't want children, insert why they didn't want to be Christian. That's why it's annoying.

TBH I don't get that from my friends, hell a few are like "Don't". But its those people that seem to pity you that are infuriating. Or the entire "You don't know!" thing.
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be annoying to hear it all the time. I would probably find it annoying, myself. I'm just saying that there are some concrete, understandable, and well-meaning reasons for why the topic comes up and that those reasons have everything to do with the person that does want (or did have) kids, as opposed to the one who doesn't (or didn't).

Shif was taking some relatively innocuous comments on the subject pretty hard, I'm just trying to provide a clearer context for those comments.
( Last edited by gradient; Sep 6, 2013 at 03:22 PM. Reason: sp)
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Who are you talking to?
You, shif, anyone claiming that Spheric and I are trying to convince them to have kids. It's our experience, it wouldn't necessarily be yours.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Unless it's your mom, because moms almost always want grandkids (mine applied pressure on me for over 20 years), I think you could be blowing that out of proportion.
"When are you going to start being an adult and have kids?"

I'm 40. That's insulting, and considering it such isn't blowing things out of proportion.
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
How dare people say they're happier now that they have kids. Those bastards! If people simply talking about how fulfilled they are, now that they have kids, makes you upset, then you have issues. That's on you, not them.
Agreed. There is some projection going on in these responses, for sure.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be annoying to hear it all the time. I would probably find it annoying, myself. I'm just saying that there are some concrete, understandable, and well-meaning reasons for why the topic comes up and that those reasons have everything to do with the person that does want (or did have) kids, as opposed to the one who doesn't (or didn't).

Shif was take some relatively innocuous comments on the subject pretty hard, I'm just trying to provide a clearer context for those comments.
It can be a compliment, I caught a lot of shit from family because they felt I'd be an excellent parent and wasn't "living up to my potential". Not that I took it personally, I simply shrugged it off.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It can be a compliment, I caught a lot of shit from family because they felt I'd be an excellent parent and wasn't "living up to my potential". Not that I took it personally, I simply shrugged it off.
It's half a compliment at best.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"When are you going to start being an adult and have kids?"

I'm 40. That's insulting, and considering it such isn't blowing things out of proportion.
Then I believe you may be too easily insulted, "thin skin" in that area or whatever. Tell them to bite you and that it's none of their f*cking business, I bet they'll stop saying it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You, shif, anyone claiming that Spheric and I are trying to convince them to have kids. It's our experience, it wouldn't necessarily be yours.
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
Agreed. There is some projection going on in these responses, for sure.
Speaking of projection, where in that last post did I say anything about happiness or you or Spheric?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Then I believe you may be too easily insulted, "thin skin" in that area or whatever. Tell them to bite you and that it's none of their f*cking business, I bet they'll stop saying it.
I should tell them to kiss-off for not being insulting?

     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"When are you going to start being an adult and have kids?"

I'm 40. That's insulting, and considering it such isn't blowing things out of proportion.
There's always an idiot/A-hole in the crowd. I would hope that this isn't a normal sort of occurrence. Even as someone who wants kids, I would lash back at that sort of crap.
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Speaking of projection, where in that last post did I say anything about happiness or you or Spheric?
Was this directed to me? If so I don't get it.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I should tell them to kiss-off for not being insulting?

Yep, I do it a lot.

Friend: "Why are you wearing flip-flops?"
Me: "F*** you, because I feel like it."
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Most of this sounds okay, though I assume "I'm too selfish" is sufficient explanation for why.
I suppose but depending on who you are and how well I know you, #3 might still apply.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
Was this directed to me? If so I don't get it.
No it's directed at Shaddim. Your bringing up projection was well-timed.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Speaking of projection, where in that last post did I say anything about happiness or you or Spheric?
Okay, great! Then there's no problem, glad we fixed that up.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Okay, great! Then there's no problem, glad we fixed that up.
So, you're going to dodge the question with sarcasm?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
I suppose but depending on who you are and how well I know you, #3 might still apply.
You wouldn't care for me. I'm an asshole.

But let's say you did for the sake of argument.

The "problem" with #3 is you aren't telling me anything I'm not already aware of. In making the decision, I've accepted the consequences.

So, you either assume I'm too stupid to realize this (which is insulting) or you're harping on the negative aspects of an informed decision (which is a drag).
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So, you're going to dodge the question with sarcasm?
Are you going to keep using the "projection defense" when it's obvious you're annoyed over people talking about how rewarding it is to have kids?

See, this isn't helping. Maybe you don't mean to imply that being childless means you don't "grow the ****-up" but its certainly looming over the conversation to me.
It's obvious he was simply talking about himself, but you decided to apply it to your life:

In short, having a kid is teaching me to grow the **** up.
Who was projecting?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You wouldn't care for me. I'm an asshole.

But let's say you did for the sake of argument.

The "problem" with #3 is you aren't telling me anything I'm not already aware of. In making the decision, I've accepted the consequences.

So, you either assume I'm too stupid to realize this (which is insulting) or you're harping on the negative aspects of an informed decision (which is a drag).
It was a big "might" I was referring to, devil's advocate style.

You have to keep in mind that not all people have the ability to analyze themselves and their lives to the same level that you appear to able to.

Some people do make decisions based on selfish reasoning without fully understanding the repercussions. If I knew you well and felt that you were one of these people, someone who was about to rob themselves of an experience that they would regret missing out on for the rest of their lives, I would consider it my responsibility to help you make sure that you were doing what was actually right for you in the grand scheme of things, not just what is right for you in the moment.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Are you going to keep using the "projection defense" when it's obvious you're annoyed over people talking about how rewarding it is to have kids?
I don't need the "projection defense". How about you just tell me what in that post you replied to was complaining about parents being happy?
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You wouldn't care for me. I'm an asshole.
Oh please, that's practically a requirement to be one of my friends, people who are compliant and bubbly all the time are a drag.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't need the "projection defense". How about you just tell me what in that post you replied to was complaining about parents being happy?
This wasn't you trying to pull the conversation in that direction, saying that science shows that people with children aren't as happy as those without, that we don't know what we're talking about or how we feel?

Am I being a derailing asshole if I mention that scientifically, some studies have shown parents are less happy than their childfree counterparts?
If I'm reading that incorrectly, then I apologize.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
besson3c  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Oh please, that's practically a requirement to be one of my friends, people who are compliant and bubbly all the time are a drag.
I can be one of your friends? Having an asshole license sounds like fun, plus your militia can protect me from the Russians.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 05:13 PM
 
Well, this escalated quickly.

Originally Posted by gradient View Post
I think that most of us who question those who say they don't want kids do it based on one of a few scenarios, all of which are tied intrinsically to our own desires and life experiences and none of which are meant as an offense or to support any perceived social stigma surrounding the topic.
That's just it though - it's not your place to question it, is it? Unless it's someone you know very, very well and they have made it clear that they are entertaining commentary and opposing viewpoints on the topic, you have absolutely no business questioning why someone doesn't want children.

Incidentally, this isn't something that is only directed at women. My brother is insistent that he doesn't want kids and so is my best friend. They both hear about it as much as any women I know do.
It's not exclusively directed at women. It's that social pressure is significantly greater on women with regards to childbearing. Every single time a coworker or friend has found out through casual conversation that I have zero intention of ever procreating, I'm pressured to explain why and provide a satisfactory reason (hint: there isn't one, in my experience). My (male) partner of three years has yet to have anyone - including is own mother - question why we don't want children.

I genuinely doubt that your brother and your best friend experience pressure from complete strangers or casual acquaintances regarding their lack of children as much as their female partners do.

As far as the comments that have been put out here thus far from Shaddim, SH, et al regarding their own experiences as parents:

Interpretation is as important as intent. This is just the Internet, but if you find out a friend of yours IRL has decided to remain childfree, and your response is to say, "Well I was like that once too, but I changed my mind, and it made me grow up and enhanced my life in a way you couldn't possibly understand", then quite frankly you deserve to get punched in the face. You have had great experiences as a parent. There's nothing wrong with that - nobody is trying to say that there's anything wrong with that. In a conversation about this topic, however, if you are only able to focus on how freakin' sweet parenthood is and are, for all intents and purposes, ignoring people who are clearly saying that it's not for them, you come across as arrogant and judgmental. Someone saying "parenthood is definitely not for me" is not an invitation to expound on how amaaaaaaaazing your decision to procreate was.

Dakar makes a good point IMO - change the topic of conversation to religion, and I doubt any of you would run off at the mouth over and over about how amazing Jesus is and how much he changed your life in response to someone telling you they're an atheist.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Your life having purpose and "growing the **** up" seem like to two completely different events to me.
They don't to me.

I didn't decide to have a child for any of these reasons. I decided to have a child because her mother and I knew, were absolutely sure, that it was the right path to take. We haven't questioned that choice, ever.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
As far as the comments that have been put out here thus far from Shaddim, SH, et al regarding their own experiences as parents:

Interpretation is as important as intent. This is just the Internet, but if you find out a friend of yours IRL has decided to remain childfree, and your response is to say, "Well I was like that once too, but I changed my mind, and it made me grow up and enhanced my life in a way you couldn't possibly understand", then quite frankly you deserve to get punched in the face. You have had great experiences as a parent. There's nothing wrong with that - nobody is trying to say that there's anything wrong with that. In a conversation about this topic, however, if you are only able to focus on how freakin' sweet parenthood is and are, for all intents and purposes, ignoring people who are clearly saying that it's not for them, you come across as arrogant and judgmental. Someone saying "parenthood is definitely not for me" is not an invitation to expound on how amaaaaaaaazing your decision to procreate was.
Interpretation is as important as intent. And I STRONGLY suggest you stop constantly reading stuff into my posts that I never wrote.

My apologies for thinking that, if somebody decides to share that having kids is not for her, and explains why, it might be relevant conversation to try and explain a part of what having kids means to me, especially with regard to selfishness.

If you're not interested in having kids, and you're not interested in hearing from people who are, THEN DON'T ****ING START A CONVERSATION ABOUT HAVING KIDS.

I have no interest in convincing you of anything. I can't speak for you. I can speak from the perspective of a childless person, as well as from the perspective of a father.

If what I wrote above makes you want to punch me in the face, then **** you.

And thanks for reminding me why I generally keep personal stuff of the forums.



FWIW, I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that what's happened to me over the past seven years is simply a factor of age.
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Sep 6, 2013 at 06:01 PM. )
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I can be one of your friends? Having an asshole license sounds like fun, plus your militia can protect me from the Russians.
Sorry, I'm not accepting applications at this time.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
That's just it though - it's not your place to question it, is it? Unless it's someone you know very, very well and they have made it clear that they are entertaining commentary and opposing viewpoints on the topic, you have absolutely no business questioning why someone doesn't want children.
Sorry, but I just don't buy into this. I and (clearly) most other people on this forum enjoy and find great personal satisfaction in intellectual debate. The most meaningful debate will always be on personal level, regarding personal topics; the core questions of who we are, where we came from, and what we're doing here are universal and deeply ingrained across all cultures. Parenthood and the impact offspring can have on the fundamental ways in which we approach, and gather meaning from, life is closely connected to this.

We should be able to have an adult conversation about the pros and cons of parenthood, desires for or against, impact on life, whatever. If nobody ever questioned anyone's motives, where would we be? I don't know, but I'm quite sure we would be noticeably less developed as a species.

I genuinely doubt that your brother and your best friend experience pressure from complete strangers or casual acquaintances regarding their lack of children as much as their female partners do.
You're likely right about that. I can say for myself that I actually have more conversations on this topic with men, but then my own experience on that front are likely skewed by way of talking to more men than women on a regular basis.

Dakar makes a good point IMO - change the topic of conversation to religion, and I doubt any of you would run off at the mouth over and over about how amazing Jesus is and how much he changed your life in response to someone telling you they're an atheist.
Along the lines of what Spheric said a few posts above, if someone goes out of their way to tell me that they're an atheist that is an open invitation for conversation/debate, imo.

That aside, I don't actually see a similar conversation about religion being an issue, anyway. It just happens to be that I'm on the opposite side of the fence in that conversation. If a devout Christian wants to tell me about how great it is then I really don't mind; in fact I like to engage these people. Sure it would get tiresome if I were being preached to all the time, but I hope you realize that there as been very little (if any) preaching in this thread so it's not really a fair direct comparison.

That being said, there are some big differences between the two topics.

For starters, nobody (I hope) would ever rail at you about how you will spend eternity in damnation if you don't have children. That's a mighty big stick to wave around and nobody tends like someone coming at them with a big stick.

Second, child-bearing is a basic biological function that is hard-wired into our species. Without it, none of us would exist and there is unequivocal proof of this that we all accept. This in itself gives the topic far more credibility than anything religion can bring to the table.

To be clear, anyone who doesn't want kids is more than welcome not to but suggesting that the topic should be completely off limits is unreasonable.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The rainy PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 6, 2013, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
If what I wrote above makes you want to punch me in the face, then **** you.
You completely misread me.

All I'm saying is, if one of your real-life friends tells you they don't ever want children, I highly recommend you resist the urge to wax on about how amazing your life has been since you had kids. It will likely make your friend want to hit you.

I brought it up in terms of the original post - most specifically, I was wondering whether or not the biological drive to procreate has evolved as society's views on childbearing have changed.

You're the one who turned it into a crusade to preach about how amaaaaaaaazing have kids has been for you.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:34 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,