[vexingv]

so i'm gonna pull the trigger and order an ibook in a couple of weeks (so that it arrives right after finals so that i have no distractions!). i've been doing some reaching research about ordering and such...and i realized that apple doesnt offer returns on custom orders (i'm thinking of adding airport extreme and 60 gb hard drive as a BTO option).
my only worry is that i wind up with a unit that has a problem with dead pixels on the display. would apple allow exchanges for such units?

[im_noahselby]

-If dead pixels concern you than buy from a retail shop that offers a hassle free return policy. (example: FutureShop, London Drugs) This way, if you end up with dead pixels, then you have the option to return the notebook and shop around elsewhere and try your luck again.
-Also, avoid buying from an Apple store because they will charge you a 10-20% restocking fee.

Nothing annoys me more than people who buy a BTO notebook from Apple and then come on here whining about it because they have a dead pixel in the middle of their screen and can't return their notebook. You take a chance when you buy a BTO machine. As far as I'm concerned, if you're willing to take this chance then you should be willing to accept a few dead pixels, should they be there.

Good Luck

Noah

[Cadaver]

While Apple's pixel policy is fairly comlicated (5 or more pixels, or 3 at the center, or 4 clustered together, or something like this), they will not accept returns/repair for only one or two pixels. Most other vendors won't either (Dell, IBM, etc).

You might have better luck, as the previous poster said, at a retail store with a liberal return policy.

[vexingv]

well i dont think the 30g hard drive will cut it for me. and other vendors dont offer an educational discount. i guess one or two pixels i can deal with, but beyond that it gets to be more than an annoyance. i find that 10 day policy (from purchase date, not even arrival date) to be pretty ridiculous. i just hope i dont have any issues with the ibook i'm gonna order later this month.

[fastback]

Just upgrade from 30GB to whatever you want.

[Komisar]

Trust me get the computer i have had dead pixels on my iboo no problem they take it right away, they are very good on this stuff and they will replace your screen almost always

[EdipisReks]

i don't know what the exact policy is, but when my tibook developed 18 stuck pixels in 2 weeks, apparently because of an internal power problem, apple replaced my screen with no problems.

[bauhaus]

Originally posted by fastback:
Just upgrade from 30GB to whatever you want.

That will void the warranty with Apple.

[Proudest Monkey]

Originally posted by im_noahselby:


Nothing annoys me more than people who buy a BTO notebook from Apple and then come on here whining about it because they have a dead pixel in the middle of their screen and can't return their notebook. You take a chance when you buy a BTO machine. As far as I'm concerned, if you're willing to take this chance then you should be willing to accept a few dead pixels, should they be there.

Good Luck

Noah

Why does this bother you so much? As far as i'm concerned, if a vendor is offering BTO to its customers, it shouldn't rule those customers out because the stock item did not satsify their needs. Apple encourages BTO - these customers should be treated equally.

when i say encourage, i'm talking about the way the ordering process is done. If you go to dell you can select to customize your pc of you can select a preconfigured pc, however; with apple there are no "recommended" preconfigured systems. All the options show up, so someone may start clicking around and realize they can add 10gb for their hd for only $25 more. but bc of that upgrade they can't get a replacedment if their are stuck pixels or whatever? seems odd.

am i getting this right?

[bauhaus]

Originally posted by Cadaver:
While Apple's pixel policy is fairly comlicated (5 or more pixels, or 3 at the center, or 4 clustered together, or something like this), they will not accept returns/repair for only one or two pixels. Most other vendors won't either (Dell, IBM, etc).

You might have better luck, as the previous poster said, at a retail store with a liberal return policy.

IBM gives you a 30 days no questions asked return policy in the US. So you can always get a perfect screen. Dell offers 21 days return policy in the US, no questions asked. Neither charge a "restock fee" and there are no restrictions on opening and using the item until it is returned. IBM even pays for the shipping back. And this includes customized orders for both vendors. (no second class customers)

You picked two really bad examples

[DamnDJ]

This conversation again?

Dead Pixels are a fact of life in LCD land.. period. If you buy a laptop, LCD monitor, palm pilot, whatever, you run the risk of having a/couple/few/many dead pixels. Some can be rubbed out, others cannot.

If you have a couple on your monitor, then you'll just have to deal with it. Apple has a policy about how many can be on the screen within a certain distance of each other, so other than that, the only thing you can do is to learn to stop worrying and love the dead pixels.

[miksu]

Originally posted by bauhaus:
IBM gives you a 30 days no questions asked return policy in the US. So you can always get a perfect screen. Dell offers 21 days return policy in the US, no questions asked. Neither charge a "restock fee" and there are no restrictions on opening and using the item until it is returned. IBM even pays for the shipping back. And this includes customized orders for both vendors. (no second class customers)

You picked two really bad examples

Those were actually really good examples...

Since it may be return policy in USA, but it varies lot in different countries. In Finland, for example, everything you order from internet/mail order catalog etc. has to have 14 day return policy at no cost to customer. Dell has only minimum demanded 14 days return policy in Finland. If I order from Apple store, I have right to return it in 14 days, at no cost. It's 14 days, free, be it BTO or stock model.

There is actually standard for dead pixels in LCD screens. It defines what kind of flaws (grouping, location, dead/allways on) displays have. Sure as hell, Dell and IBM, nor any other displaymaker is going to accept return of, say, 17" screen only because there is one or two dead pixels.

They (Dells, IBM) actually have stated that display will be replaced only, if certain level of this ISO-norm is exceeded. There has to be more than two or three "deads". Apple has same kind guide lines (this ISO-norm).

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by miksu:
Those were actually really good examples...

Since it may be return policy in USA, but it varies lot in different countries. In Finland, for example, everything you order from internet/mail order catalog etc. has to have 14 day return policy at no cost to customer. Dell has only minimum demanded 14 days return policy in Finland. If I order from Apple store, I have right to return it in 14 days, at no cost. It's 14 days, free, be it BTO or stock model.

Actually, this is EU law, so it applies to every country in the European Union.

[im_noahselby]

Originally posted by Proudest Monkey:
Why does this bother you so much? As far as i'm concerned, if a vendor is offering BTO to its customers, it shouldn't rule those customers out because the stock item did not satsify their needs. Apple encourages BTO - these customers should be treated equally.

when i say encourage, i'm talking about the way the ordering process is done. If you go to dell you can select to customize your pc of you can select a preconfigured pc, however; with apple there are no "recommended" preconfigured systems. All the options show up, so someone may start clicking around and realize they can add 10gb for their hd for only $25 more. but bc of that upgrade they can't get a replacedment if their are stuck pixels or whatever? seems odd.

am i getting this right?

Apple has a set policy when it comes to BTO machines. You may not agree with it, many may not agree with it, but it's their nonetheless. A 10,000 signature petition would not make Apple change this policy.

I wouldn't say Apple goes out of their way to encourage BTO custom built machines. Rather, Apple does much better selling stock config machines in large quantities.

Noah

[RImacs]

I custom ordered a Laptop from Apple and when i recieved it there was a dead pixel in the middle of the screen. I had also purchased applecare at the time and figure "hey I can just send it in a get it fixed". alas NO! So here is what i did. After getting the BS about the dead pixel policy, I simply returned the computer, you can return it no problem, especially if you ask for credit, so i returned it. In about a week I recieved notice of the credit and i order another, no dead pixel, happy again!

[brentsg]

I was planning to order an iBook but I also wanted to upgrade the hard drive and add Bluetooth. Unfortunately that put me in the BTO category as you have found. I went by the local Apple store and they told me they'd replace a laptop because of a bad pixel as long as I was within the 10 days. They were also willing to do this if I ordered online as long as I stayed with a standard config.

I ended up going with the default 12" Powerbook just to avoid the potential problem. I was kinda torn since each has its strengths and weaknesses.

As an aside, I preferred to order online b/c the local store didn't have the HP printer I wanted and I got a $100 rebate for ordering them together.

Anyhow, I got lucky and didn't have any bad pixels (knock on wood).

B

[Bobby]

Originally posted by fastback:
Just upgrade from 30GB to whatever you want.

I would love to be able to do this on my iBook...

However I bought an AppleCare 3 year warrenty. If I, or anybody else for that matter, upgrade the internal drive, it will void the warrenty...

[Proudest Monkey]

Originally posted by im_noahselby:
Apple has a set policy when it comes to BTO machines. You may not agree with it, many may not agree with it, but it's their nonetheless. A 10,000 signature petition would not make Apple change this policy.

I wouldn't say Apple goes out of their way to encourage BTO custom built machines. Rather, Apple does much better selling stock config machines in large quantities.

Noah

Wow, 10,000 sigs and nothing. It's unfortunate, especially if its a first time buyer.

:insert shoulder shrug:

[iREZ]

Actually if I'm not mistaken, you can upgrade your HD and not void your warranty as long as you have an Apple technician go through the procedure, dont quote me on this but I think if you go to a B&M Apple store, they should be able to do the upgrade right there in store as long as your willing to pay for the HD and labor charges, and it shouldn't void your warranty. Again, I hope somebody corrects me if I'm wrong.

[gui1ty]

SMASH IS AROUND UNTIL YOU GET 30 + DEAD PIXELS LOL

[iXavier]

Originally posted by gui1ty:
SMASH IS AROUND UNTIL YOU GET 30 + DEAD PIXELS LOL

Something about the abuse factor makes me think they wouldn't take it back.

x.

[bauhaus]

Originally posted by RImacs:
I custom ordered a Laptop from Apple and when i recieved it there was a dead pixel in the middle of the screen. I had also purchased applecare at the time and figure "hey I can just send it in a get it fixed". alas NO! So here is what i did. After getting the BS about the dead pixel policy, I simply returned the computer, you can return it no problem, especially if you ask for credit, so i returned it. In about a week I recieved notice of the credit and i order another, no dead pixel, happy again!

Were you charged a restock fee? (like a percentage deducted)

[bauhaus]

Originally posted by iREZ:
Actually if I'm not mistaken, you can upgrade your HD and not void your warranty as long as you have an Apple technician go through the procedure, dont quote me on this but I think if you go to a B&M Apple store, they should be able to do the upgrade right there in store as long as your willing to pay for the HD and labor charges, and it shouldn't void your warranty. Again, I hope somebody corrects me if I'm wrong.

Nope, sorry, wrong. Apple B&M stores (and Apple service centers) will refuse to do this because Apple Corporate does not endorse or support this policy. Go into any Apple Store and ask (or call up AppleCare)-- they'll all tell you the same thing. The last laptops they allowed this were on the Ti with the removable hard drive.

[aaa]

I have a similar story...Open my shiny new iBook only to find a dead pixel. You can imagine my disappointment, it's like having a piece of gum on the nose of the Mona Lisa!

I complained and everyone was very polite but didn't FIX the DEFECT. Very frustrating.

Apple has an image of a superior machine, a machine for discriminating tastes. The design is magnificent. Why such crapy hardware?! Is that the only way to make a profit? I don't think so. Some car manufacturers sell very expensive products and people buy them. We are willing to pay for quality and freedom from hassles. I simply want a machine that works as expected.

If Apple's image is the high-end of computers, they MUST make the hardware match the image. I can't recommend buying a Mac to anyone without adding the caveat "their hardware is a little flaky". I'm sure this in part explains their slipping market share.

A simple solution: sell the defective displays at a discount. A few missing pixels on a discounted machine is easier to take than paying full price and getting "sorry" as response!

I have a long history with Macs. I think productivity increases dramatically when little time is spent fiddling with problems. But I spent a lot of time fiddling with hardware problems. I don't need that.

If Apple continues with this policy, they will alienate everyone, even Mac evangelists (as I once was).

I don't want to see Macs go, but if this keeps up, it's inevitable.

F.

[meteparozzi]

Originally posted by aaa:


If Apple's image is the high-end of computers, they MUST make the hardware match the image. I can't recommend buying a Mac to anyone without adding the caveat "their hardware is a little flaky". I'm sure this in part explains their slipping market share.

F.

Just like any computer company, Apple buy's their specific components from another company and assembles them in their factory / warehouse / wherever. Dead pixels are not something they can be responsible for, especially when there are so many other things they must check when they ship your order (RAM, HDD, Airport, etc.) Yes, at some point your LCD was most likely checked and given a seal of approval. If companies started taking back LCDs with one or two dead pixels then their market share WOULD slip because they would be absorbing the costs.

The policies they initiate on this are intended to minimize cost while maximizing customer satisfaction. In the end, if Apple wanted to implement a "zero-dead-pixel" policy, customers would ultimately incur the cost. In mass production, you have to lose a few eggs in the process or the costs will go up significantly.

In the end, you have to see the balance / sacrifice between speed and affordability versus quality control and perfection. Somewhere along the line you have to give one for the other. In this case, a few dead pixels shouldn't be too terrible.

And think of it this way, if Apple would increase their resolutions (say to 1600x1200), you wouldn't even be able to see a dead pixel in the mass of all the other ones.

Perhaps instead of asking them to change their dead pixel policy, we could instead request higher resolution LCDs.... Would be nice....

Lets prod them on that one instead, though they'll never pick up on our real motives.

[aaa]

Originally posted by meteparozzi:
Just like any computer company, Apple buy's their specific components from another company and assembles them in their factory / warehouse / wherever. Dead pixels are not something they can be responsible for, especially when there are so many other things they must check when they ship your order (RAM, HDD, Airport, etc.) Yes, at some point your LCD was most likely checked and given a seal of approval. If companies started taking back LCDs with one or two dead pixels then their market share WOULD slip because they would be absorbing the costs.

We don't want apple to be like every other company, we want it to be better.

They can be responsible, just change the policy. If you notice a dead pixel within a week... return it and get a new one. Right now, their policy would allow them to send a fixed one in it's place. This is also low quality service, esp. if it was a new machine. This policy should be: of similar age/use, so putting a old hard-drive in a new machine would be a no-no.

The policies they initiate on this are intended to minimize cost while maximizing customer satisfaction. In the end, if Apple wanted to implement a "zero-dead-pixel" policy, customers would ultimately incur the cost. In mass production, you have to lose a few eggs in the process or the costs will go up significantly.

In the end, you have to see the balance / sacrifice between speed and affordability versus quality control and perfection. Somewhere along the line you have to give one for the other. In this case, a few dead pixels shouldn't be too terrible.

The cost? Saving money by pissing off clients isn't a good idea. If no one buys your product, there is no business. If I pay $300 or whatever for applecare, wouldn't that cover the cost? If applecare guaranteed a "zero-dead-pixel" policy, that would make it a big seller.

I never found out what percentage of displays exhibit this sort of defect. Is it more than 1%, 10%, 50%? Over what time period? What would insurance of this sort cost? Maybe a third party should start offering better applecare?

And think of it this way, if Apple would increase their resolutions (say to 1600x1200), you wouldn't even be able to see a dead pixel in the mass of all the other ones.

Perhaps instead of asking them to change their dead pixel policy, we could instead request higher resolution LCDs.... Would be nice....

Lets prod them on that one instead, though they'll never pick up on our real motives.

How close to your display do you want to be? It's better to increase the size with the pixel count rather than increase the pixel density. Wouldn't the cost of such a display exceed the cost of simply selling the defective ones at a discount?

Thanks for your reply,
F.

[Justin216]

Apple feels that a couple dead pixels are no issue to them or their customers. Apple will only do something if you have 5-7+ dead pixels on your screen.

[Bobby]

Originally posted by iREZ:
Actually if I'm not mistaken, you can upgrade your HD and not void your warranty as long as you have an Apple technician go through the procedure, dont quote me on this but I think if you go to a B&M Apple store, they should be able to do the upgrade right there in store as long as your willing to pay for the HD and labor charges, and it shouldn't void your warranty. Again, I hope somebody corrects me if I'm wrong.

I asked AppleCare this exact question. I was told (over the phone) that if someone replaced the internal hard drive it would void the warranty...

I then proceeded to ask if I could have an Apple authorized retailer replace it, the person told me "they shouldn't". It wasn't really a yes or a no, nor was it a sure answer, but his overall point expressed that it cannot be done...

Of corse he could always be wrong... It's not exactly astronomical for this to happen in any likelyhood...

[Bobby]

I think if you were to measure the number of systems out there that develop at least one dead pixel within the first few months, you are likely to find a very noticable percentage with dead pixels... My iBook had a pixel die after around 5 months...

I was really frustrated at first, however since then I've gotten used to it, and now barely notice it... I was fortunate in one regard, its about 10 pixels across and 100 pixels down in the upper left hand corner. So it's pretty much out of the way... I only occasionally notice it...


I'm the kind of person who gets very emotional about these types of things, but at this point if I had a choice of trading mine in for a new iBook with the same specs, or keep this one (assuming no likelyhood of either having any kind of malfunciton), I would probably keep mine...

[StevenWRX]

gahhhh

i am 10 minutes away from canceling my 17" pb on order.. i really cant stand dead pixels especially at a 3000 dollar price tag..

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by StevenWRX:
gahhhh

i am 10 minutes away from canceling my 17" pb on order.. i really cant stand dead pixels especially at a 3000 dollar price tag..

The 17" PBs have screens which are much better (higher quality) than the ones used in the iBooks. The chances to have dead pixels on a PB 15" or 17" are not nearly as high as they are for the iBooks and 12" PBs, even though the 15" and 17" PBs have more pixels.

[aaa]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
The 17" PBs have screens which are much better (higher quality) than the ones used in the iBooks. The chances to have dead pixels on a PB 15" or 17" are not nearly as high as they are for the iBooks and 12" PBs, even though the 15" and 17" PBs have more pixels.

Please post the actual rates for each display, in a form like: percent with 0 through 5 dead pixels in graph over time if possible. Dreaming, I know...

Any raw data would also be appreciated. And by the way, if you have no real data to base your statements on, please state that it's your opinion and not fact. A source to confirm your statement would also be nice.

Thanks,
F.

[aaa]

Originally posted by Justin216:
Apple feels that a couple dead pixels are no issue to them or their customers. Apple will only do something if you have 5-7+ dead pixels on your screen.

They are as dead wrong as the dead pixels on their screens.

F.