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Charles Bouldin · Mar 22, 2006, 05:18 PM

This looks like double the battery life of the Macbook Pro, with equivalent performance. Why? They also not how "cool" the laptop runs. I think Apple has done something wrong with the MBP, but I cannot imagine what causes such a profound difference.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/x60.ars/4

pete · Mar 22, 2006, 05:39 PM

I don't get it either. Apple obviously has made some poor design choices, with aluminum being the biggest of them. I love the feel, look etc of metal, but ultimately these are work machines and comfort needs to be more important.

As for battery life: there's a big difference between 15.4" and the 12" of the Thinkpad...

mrmister · Mar 22, 2006, 05:52 PM

Wow. Granted, it uses integrated graphics and a smaller (dimmer?) screen, but that is crazy long for the Thinkpad. 10 hours when you do absolutely nothing, lowest settings for everything? No PB or MBP can even dream of that--and that's sad.

schmoe · Mar 22, 2006, 05:53 PM

Well that X60 high capacity battery weighs 1.05lbs and has a capacity of 75 watt-hours. The MBP's is 60 watt-hours and probably weighs a lot less. I suppose that Apple cares more about style than function, so the MBP is very pretty and quiet but hot because the fans aren't very active and heatsinks would raise the weight. And its weight is kept at "only" 5.6lb because it has a smaller battery...

JKT · 06:02 PM

The battery life stems from the two batteries it has installed at the expense of an optical drive.

schmoe · Mar 22, 2006, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by JKT

The battery life stems from the two batteries it has installed at the expense of an optical drive.

It doesn't have two batteries does it? The review mentioned that the dock can hold a second battery, and Lenovo sells an "extended life" battery which is only 4-cells, but the test system only mentions the 8-cell which is the "high capacity" battery.

JKT · Mar 22, 2006, 06:55 PM

It mentions that they bought the "additional" 8 cell battery which I take to mean they had both batteries installed. Given that the hardware is not radically different to any other Dual Core intel laptop out there (other than the smaller screen size) it would be impossible for it to get 10hours+ of battery life from just one battery, ergo they must have had both batteries in there. Edit: Maybe I'm just mis-interpreting what they said, but that is the impression I got from the below:

(Note: this is a different model than the X60s, which, while lighter, utilizes a lower-voltage Core Duo L2300 CPU and lacks the fingerprint scanner). It weighs in at a svelte 3lb (depending on configuration) and claims to have quite an impressive battery life. An optional dock can hold a second battery and/or an optical drive.

We ordered the 1706-85U model, which comes with the aforementioned T2400, an 80GB drive, 512MB of memory, and a 3-year warranty including accidental damage protection for US$1753. List price for the model is US$1919 without the accidental damage protection. Discounts are available for students and some organization employees, so do ask around before purchasing. In addition we ordered the additional 8-cell battery for US$157.

My emphasis.

schmoe · Mar 22, 2006, 07:22 PM

Yeah, the wording is wierd, but there is no optical drive on the X60 to put an extra battery in. So the only way to have two batteries is to use the dock, or to use the 4-cell "extended" batteries that attaches on the bottom (which I don't think they had).

I have a T43p with the high-capacity battery and it gets around 4 hours of life using wireless, without dimming the bright 1600x1200 screen, and it has the crazy FireGL graphics card. So the X60 with integrated graphics, tiny screen, and the more efficient chipset should do much better.

milhaus · Mar 22, 2006, 10:07 PM

Yep, I think Apple is a bit behind the times on the battery life issue. What I also don't understand is how nobody has been able to make a higher capacity battery (for the PB) that actually adds a significant amount of time to the unit (none of that OWC stuff that adds like 10-15% extra at a significant cost).

n8236 · Mar 22, 2006, 11:45 PM

I take those results w/ a grain of salt. The benchmarking software itself is outdated and it is possible that it doesn't take advantage of the new laptop processing abilities. Don't believe everything you see.

Not sure how many ppl saw the battery life tests of the MBP, but it's certainly NOT underpar w/ other laptops in its category. This topic has been beat to death.

As for Apple using aluminum. People have to realize it is multi-purpose. First, it gives aesthetic appeal compared to your usual black or faux silver titanium look. Secondly, it is quite light, if not almost equally light as plastic. Thirdly, aluminum dissipates heat quickly. What do you think cools your CPUs......heatsinks made from ______

Innovating new batteries is tricky business because consumers demand it to be 1) safe 2) physical durability 3) long battery life 4) cheap 5) weight. There are better batteries available, but those usually aren't able to accomplish what I listed one way or another w/o sacraficing others.

But engineers/chemists are hard at work realizing that as time passes, consumers will demand faster and better laptops which in turn results in more power consumption. But other than innovating better batteries, it also has a lot to do w/ electrical designs. Intel has been focusing on power/watt which maximizes performance and battery life.

If you know a bit about cars, you would know it's not all about horsepower alone. What good is 300 horses it if the car weighs 3 tons? It all comes down to power to weight ratio alas power/watt for computers.

I think Apple made very good design decisions.

JKT · Mar 23, 2006, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by milhaus

Yep, I think Apple is a bit behind the times on the battery life issue. What I also don't understand is how nobody has been able to make a higher capacity battery (for the PB) that actually adds a significant amount of time to the unit (none of that OWC stuff that adds like 10-15% extra at a significant cost).

As n8236 says, the first part of your statement is incorrect - the MBP is getting similar battery times to equivalent PC hardware using the Core Duo. If you want Apple to get longer battery life then it will be achieved by doing one or a combination of the following:

1. Cutting even more features
2. Adding more weight (bigger battery)
3. Increasing the price dramatically to include a better battery.

Chemistry is what makes it difficult to make higher capacity batteries - especially, at a price that people would be willing to pay for them. I'm sure they could increase the battery life by ~20% (probably not by much more than that as the constraint is the chemical process) but it would be at an exorbitant price which would make buying two lower capacity batteries more sensible than buying the single higher capacity one.

Super Mario · 04:19 PM

Dumbass reviewer said OS X's Open GL is not good because the the T43 did better than the MacBook Pro in Open GL. Fricking guy has no clue that the Fire GL is a workstation card and the X1600 is a gamer card.

CorpITGuy · Mar 23, 2006, 10:45 AM

People also seem to be missing the fact that the screen is just tiny compared to the MBP. Take a 12" iBook, put two batteries, integrated graphics, and then compare the two. That would be a lot more scientific. This is pc-fanboy stuff.

Dr.Michael · 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by nstehle

People also seem to be missing the fact that the screen is just tiny compared to the MBP. Take a 12" iBook, put two batteries, integrated graphics, and then compare the two. That would be a lot more scientific. This is pc-fanboy stuff.

Apple cannot do miracles. With the same processor, a lower power battery but nearly twice the screen area, and presumably a much brighter screen, how can anyone expect longer battery life?

Powerbooks usually had a better battery life because of dimmer screens and low power cpus (G3 and G4) with mediocre performance. If you remove that, the battery lifetime advantage goes.

Sharp has done before what lenovo does now. They offered a 12 inch low power/low performance notebook, 2pounds, without optical drive (i guess) that lasted 8-10 hours on one charge. But in the meantime processors have become fast and efficient and this can be done with fast processors too.

We have to face it: Now that apple uses the same components as pc manufacturers we cannot hide anymore behind uncomparable hardware specs. I have found this before: Powerbooks have rarely been first class performers. The advantage has always been balanced system performance and a great OS. And altivec - but thats over now.

And one more thing: Thinkpads have always been top performers with outstanding features and quality. I use a T40 myself and even after 3 years it is still a great machine. Except for battery life (for understandable reasons) the MacBook is close to the Tinkpads or better. Coming close to a Thinkpad means you are world class. Don't forget that.

Super Mario · 04:20 PM

A desktop replacement is supposed to be used mostly plugged in.

amazing · Mar 23, 2006, 12:26 PM

The key phrase is: "In addition we ordered the additional 8-cell battery for US$157."

If you order an additional battery for the MBP, you too will have close to 10 hours of battery life between the 2 batteries.

LOL: You buy an ultralight, then stick on a 1.05 pound battery on it. What's the final weight?

Also: Perhaps the Thinkpad is implementing more draconian power-stepping features?

pete · Mar 23, 2006, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Michael

We have to face it: Now that apple uses the same components as pc manufacturers we cannot hide anymore behind uncomparable hardware specs. I have found this before: Powerbooks have rarely been first class performers. The advantage has always been balanced system performance and a great OS. And altivec - but thats over now.

And one more thing: Thinkpads have always been top performers with outstanding features and quality. I use a T40 myself and even after 3 years it is still a great machine. Except for battery life (for understandable reasons) the MacBook is close to the Tinkpads or better. Coming close to a Thinkpad means you are world class. Don't forget that.

Apple really needs a portable as perfect as the T40: powerful, light, very rugged and durable, runs cool, great ergonomics and bright high quality screen. I love the powerbook 12, but it is let down by a subpar display, heat and relatively lacklustre performance. Looking forward to what Apple is going to introduce to replace it...

Although I love my powerbook, I think I'd prefer to have MacOS X running on a thinkpad T40 because of the above. I also think the T40's trackpad, buttons and track peg are quite a bit more comfortable than my powerbook. And the keyboard feels even better too.

I think Apple is paying a little too much attention to style and should start focusing more on comfort and ergonomics, in addition to style of course.

buddy1065 · Mar 23, 2006, 02:14 PM

Yeah, those Apple designers are getting kicked in the ars.

Tomchu · Mar 23, 2006, 02:22 PM

Super Mario, in this case, you're the dumbass.

The GPUs in the "gamer" editions and "workstation" editions of comparable Radeon/FireGL cards are identical. The FireGL V3200 Mobility actually has lower specs than the X1600 Mobility.

It's pretty common knowledge that OS X's OpenGL performance is nowhere near as fast as in Windows XP. Apple simply hasn't optimized it as much as is possible.

Super Mario · 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Super Mario, in this case, you're the dumbass.

The GPUs in the "gamer" editions and "workstation" editions of comparable Radeon/FireGL cards are identical. The FireGL V3200 Mobility actually has lower specs than the X1600 Mobility.

It's pretty common knowledge that OS X's OpenGL performance is nowhere near as fast as in Windows XP. Apple simply hasn't optimized it as much as is possible.

The FireGL card will perform better in those apps even in OS X because the z-buffering and other features are what those cards exist for that mainstream cards don't do as well.

Big Mac · Mar 23, 2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Although I love my powerbook, I think I'd prefer to have MacOS X running on a thinkpad T40 because of the above. I also think the T40's trackpad, buttons and track peg are quite a bit more comfortable than my powerbook. And the keyboard feels even better too.

We found the second person in the world who appreciates the Think Pad's eraser tip input device.

Super Mario · 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

The FireGL card will perform better in those apps even in OS X because the z-buffering and other features are what those cards exist for that mainstream cards don't do as well.

In addition OS X has to render the whole screen in Quartz and a Open GL wrapper which is very different from saying Apple hasn't optimised Open GL. When Vista has to render a whole screen using their version they will also see a hit in Open GL apps. The comparison between OS X and XP is not valid at all.

JKT · Mar 23, 2006, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by amazing

If you order an additional battery for the MBP, you too will have close to 10 hours of battery life between the 2 batteries.

More like 7 to 8 hours. When the iBook replacement arrives, you may see 10+ hour battery life if you have two batteries, but not with the MBP.

Tomchu · Mar 23, 2006, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

The FireGL card will perform better in those apps even in OS X because the z-buffering and other features are what those cards exist for that mainstream cards don't do as well.

Z-buffering has been in all consumer Radeon cards for almost as long as I can remember. What other features don't they "do as well"? I just told you that the GPUs are the same.

Originally Posted by Super Mario

In addition OS X has to render the whole screen in Quartz and a Open GL wrapper which is very different from saying Apple hasn't optimised Open GL. When Vista has to render a whole screen using their version they will also see a hit in Open GL apps. The comparison between OS X and XP is not valid at all.

The reasons for "why" don't matter. OS X's OpenGL simply doesn't perform as fast as XP's, and that's the reason for the benchmark wins.

As for Vista, the latest news to come out regarding OpenGL is that there will be no performance hits because of some minor changes in what layering Microsoft is going to allow.

amazing · Mar 23, 2006, 03:02 PM

The most comparable Ars battery test was the second one at 6:20 with bluetooth and wireless on, medium brightness, occasional HD access. When Jacqui Cheng reviewed the MBP for Ars with approx those settings, the MBP got an average of 3:17. Therefore, 2 batteries for the MBP with be just like the Thinkpad battery life.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardw...cbookpro.ars/3

The way the Thinkpad got 10 hours was with BT and wireless off, lowest screen setting, movie loop playing in RAM (no HD access). Everyday usage is more like their second test of 6:20 (this is the test to consider if you're comparing apples to apples.)

amazing · Mar 23, 2006, 03:07 PM

I'd be very intested to see Ars re-run those benchmarks using XP on a dual-boot MBP, just like GearLog did

http://gearlog.com/blogs/gearlog/arc...3/21/8212.aspx

According to those benchmarks, the MBP is THE fastest Intel Core Duo notebook

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14171

PoisonTooth · Mar 23, 2006, 03:57 PM

I sold my dual G5 2.7 and picked up a brand new ThinkPad T60p with all the trimmings -- 2.16 GHz Core Duo, 2 GB RAM, 100 GB SATA2 7200 RPM disk, 15" 1600 x 1200 display, FireGL V5200 256 MB GPU. I didn't need a desktop anymore and wanted to move my main machine to a top-grade laptop.

Only two were in consideration: the T60p and the MBP. Obviously, the T60p won.

What stopped me from going with the MBP were three things:

1. The MBP gets way, way too hot; I know because I felt one running in a local Apple store. If this thing is going to be my main machine, I need some function over form here. The T60p, on the other hand, even when doing intensive things like running Cinebench 9.5, barely gets warm. It has great thermal engineering.

2. I need durability. I have a Rev B PowerBook 1 GHz, and it's a great little machine, but the durability isn't anywhere near the ThinkPad.

3. Too many complaints of crappy analog electronics (e.g. whining CPU). I use my machine in a quiet environment a lot, and I can't stand needless noise.

I know my way around OSX and Windows very well, and I don't find Windows XP SP2 to be a bad OS at all. I do like OSX better, but it sure is nice to be able to use the applications available for both worlds.

Also, the screen on the T60p is amazing -- the resolution is incredible, and the viewing angles are just top-notch.

I would have gone MBP in a red second were it not for these few issues.

I firmly believe that if Apple wants to capture the high-end workstation crowd, they need to design their notebooks with a little more attention to function over form. I'm not saying they need to butcher their beautiful hardware, but after a while, heavy users need some level of durability and they'd pay a little in form to get it.

pete · Mar 23, 2006, 04:12 PM

I completely agree with you PoisonTooth. Now that the Apple notebook displays are as good as the desktop displays, Apple just needs to add ruggedness and better thermal engineering to the equation. I think people don't realise that Thinkpads are pretty much silent too, and run cool.

We shouldn't make excuses for Apple. If Levano can do this, so can Apple.

analogika · Mar 23, 2006, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

We found the second person in the world who appreciates the Think Pad's eraser tip input device.

I had a customer once who thought it was "okay".

Only person I've ever met who didn't think it was total ****.

Wiskedjak · Mar 23, 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by amazing

According to those benchmarks, the MBP is THE fastest Intel Core Duo notebook

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14171

Slowed down only by OSX?

Simon · Mar 23, 2006, 04:38 PM

My g/f has a T40 and a 12" PowerBook. She only uses the T40 for SPSS because the Mac version sucks so bad - the rest of the time she's on the PowerBook. Needless to say, neither she nor I can really do anything with that red eraser pointer thingy. Total and utter crap. Otherwise IBM's ThinkPads are very pragmatic, but that device is just moronic.

Wiskedjak · Mar 23, 2006, 04:42 PM

Yup, IBM sticking to the eraser tip is almost as stubborn as Apple sticking to one button

pete · Mar 23, 2006, 05:37 PM

When I first started using the peg I didn't like it. However, after using it for a while it was extremely comfortable to use and I found it much more comfortable for my RSI than flat trackpad. It's adjustable in how much pressure you use and also accelerated. I'm proud to be the second person who loves it! also, all the new thinkpads have the option to use the trackpad.

Simon · Mar 23, 2006, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Yup, IBM sticking to the eraser tip is almost as stubborn as Apple sticking to one button

Right on.

ael719_2 · 02:13 AM

I occasionally follow the macnn discussions about PowerBooks, but I just had to register to post a reply to this current discussion about the X60's "additional" battery.

RE: additional battery
Their X60 model comes standard with a 4-cell battery. They bought the 8-cell battery to "replace" the smaller battery. The two batteries cannot be used together. Even if they used the 4-cell. I'm sure it would still get better battery time than the MBP.

RE: comparison between X60 and MBP
why? You cannot compare the two. Different class of laptops. The X60 is smaller and uses integrated graphics. You guys should really compare the MBP to the T60p (which I do own). The 9-cell battery on the T60p gets 5 hours. Oh, guess what I have running on my T60p?

Take a look...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116602173/

xbench 1.2 results
http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc2=158712

To let you guys know. I've been with Apple since the early days. Apple IIgs, Mac Plus, IIci, PB Duo, Pismo, TiBook. After the TiBook I went to the other side. Thinkpad T40 made me switch. I'm not partial to either windows or OSX. I'll switch to either side for better hardware. Now that MBP has nearly identical hardware with the T60p, I'm having second thoughts.

JKT · Mar 24, 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by raysmd

RE: additional battery
Their X60 model comes standard with a 4-cell battery. They bought the 8-cell battery to "replace" the smaller battery. The two batteries cannot be used together. Even if they used the 4-cell. I'm sure it would still get better battery time than the MBP.

Thanks for the clarification.

pete · Mar 24, 2006, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by raysmd

I occasionally follow the macnn discussions about PowerBooks, but I just had to register to post a reply to this current discussion about the X60's "additional" battery.

RE: additional battery
Their X60 model comes standard with a 4-cell battery. They bought the 8-cell battery to "replace" the smaller battery. The two batteries cannot be used together. Even if they used the 4-cell. I'm sure it would still get better battery time than the MBP.

RE: comparison between X60 and MBP
why? You cannot compare the two. Different class of laptops. The X60 is smaller and uses integrated graphics. You guys should really compare the MBP to the T60p (which I do own). The 9-cell battery on the T60p gets 5 hours. Oh, guess what I have running on my T60p?

Take a look...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/70755508@N00/116602173/

xbench 1.2 results
http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc2=158712

To let you guys know. I've been with Apple since the early days. Apple IIgs, Mac Plus, IIci, PB Duo, Pismo, TiBook. After the TiBook I went to the other side. Thinkpad T40 made me switch. I'm not partial to either windows or OSX. I'll switch to either side for better hardware. Now that MBP has nearly identical hardware with the T60p, I'm having second thoughts.

Can you tell us more about Tiger on the Thinkpad? I haven't been following the discussions about mac os on pcs. What are the issues you've encountered? Was it difficult to install?

villalobos · Mar 24, 2006, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

We found the second person in the world who appreciates the Think Pad's eraser tip input device.

Actually my work provides Thinkpad as laptops and lots of people enjoy the pointer. LOTS. I don't personnaly but eh....

JKT · Mar 24, 2006, 07:24 AM

I can't comment on difficulty of installing, but it will be difficult to maintain - every update Apple releases breaks the hack to get it running. Either you avoid updating or you have to rely on someone called Maxxus (I haven't yet seen anyone else being credited for cracking Apple's protection) to hack the update each time to be able to upgrade. Things like nVidia graphics cards were not supported the last time I looked, and there are driver issues with some other hardware too (not dissimilar to the XP on Macs situation).

pete · Mar 24, 2006, 07:36 AM

Thanks JKT - doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. Too bad.

venom600 · Mar 24, 2006, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by amazing

According to those benchmarks, the MBP is THE fastest Intel Core Duo notebook

Yeah, those tests were not given the proper context. They were comparing a 2.16Ghz MBP to 2.0Ghz PC notebooks. The MBP is fast (really, really fast), but until I see tests against other 2.16Ghz machines, I wouldn't pass judgement.

It should also be mentioned that one reason the MBP is faster is that most PC vendors allow the use of 533 RAM instead of the 667 RAM Apple uses.

Dr.Michael · Mar 24, 2006, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by JKT

I can't comment on difficulty of installing, but it will be difficult to maintain - every update Apple releases breaks the hack to get it running. Either you avoid updating or you have to rely on someone called Maxxus (I haven't yet seen anyone else being credited for cracking Apple's protection) to hack the update each time to be able to upgrade. Things like nVidia graphics cards were not supported the last time I looked, and there are driver issues with some other hardware too (not dissimilar to the XP on Macs situation).

Well, it took a few weeks to make it run. Lets wait a while and hacks will show up quicker and be more perfect.

I don't know if we should be happy about this. Apple is a consumer hardware company with small amounts of pro users. If their operating system can be hacked for cheap boxes they will lose profit because they will lose hardware sales. Consumers usually care less about using hacked versions compared to companies or pro users.

Apple would be the first company to sucessfully contol their security scheme. So I am a litle bit worried if it really was a smart step to go intel. In the end apple may become a software company that also sells mp3 players. And to our disadvantage, because apples strength is hardware and software integration. I hope they can compete with dell and other cheapnicks. In the end most consumers choose the cheaper way and will buy a dull box as long as os x turns their dull box into a better-than-windows experience.

JKT · Mar 24, 2006, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by pete

Thanks JKT - doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. Too bad.

I would wait to see if anyone responds on ease of installation - it could be trivial as far as I know (not having a PC and having no desire to get one, I haven't followed actual procedures for installation).

As it stands at present this is more a route for people who want to try OS X on the PC they already have rather than for people to buy a PC for running OS X. Long may it stay that way too - at least until Apple is in a market share/economic position to consider offering OS X for PCs (if ever). Given the support hassles of running OS X on a PC, I don't think it will appeal to many other than those who can take hacking their system to a reasonable degree. Apple will always be at least one step ahead of the crackers because they can force people to update to be able to use e.g. that new version of Safari or other Apple software, and the updates will always change the protection scheme. That will either leave people using an out-of-date version of the OS (which would be fine for many - people still use 10.3 for instance) or continually relying on others to crack the latest update to be able to maintain feature parity. As I said, so far I think only one person does this and if they get bored of it and give up, that will leave a lot of people up the creek.

ael719_2 · Mar 24, 2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Can you tell us more about Tiger on the Thinkpad? I haven't been following the discussions about mac os on pcs. What are the issues you've encountered? Was it difficult to install?

Well, let me tell you that it took 30 mins from booting the install DVD to booting into OSX. The install DVD actually does everything for me. I only needed to change the resolution of my LCD via a plist edit. The key is to get similar hardware to the current intel macs.

However, there are still unsolved issues even for my T60p which has similar specs to a MBP; i.e., video, chipset, WiFi, ethernet, bluetooth. All of the previously mention items work from the get go, but I still don't have audio or power management features. Otherwise it works great.