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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > For all the "PowerBook is good enough people"

For all the "PowerBook is good enough people"
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hakstooy
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Apr 30, 2005, 12:33 PM
 
Normally, I basically tend to agree with you. The PowerBooks, while using outdated tech while still charging a premium, certainly handled most tasks just fine. Only really intensive work like encoding video or audio would bring them to their knees. But, if you were doing that kind of work, you really should have a desktop anyway.

Well, that's changed. Cause welcome to H.264. In the land of High-Def, the poor PowerBook can't keep up.

My 1.33 12" CPU gets pegged when running the 1280x544 trailers from Apple's site, and it drops quite a few frames. The action, while crystal clear (H.264 is freaking amazing) is herky-jerky the whole way through.

As for the 1080 versions...heh, forget it. You're lucky to get enough frames to come through to even know whats going on.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but I would consider watching a move trailer to be somewhat pedestrian usage of any computer, let alone a "professional" one. And while HD ain't everywhere yet, it certainly will be rapidly expanding, and if you're looking for a good solid 2-3 grand worth of machine to last you a few years, these guys ain't gonna cut it.
     
an0therdumbsn
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Apr 30, 2005, 12:38 PM
 
i watched the apple tiger seminar and the batman begins trailer, both in the h.264 codec and both ran smoothly and looked amazing. My powerbook did heat up a bit but other than that it was fine.
Im using a 15'' 1.25 ghz w/ 512 mbs ram, so its not exactly the high end.
i have yet to come across performance issues on this bad boy.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 12:38 PM
 
This is a bummer. I do hope that 10.4.1 .2 .3 improves on this...

>Now, I don't know about you guys, but I would consider watching a move trailer to be somewhat pedestrian usage of any compute

To be fair. Watching a HD movie trailer is not pedestriation. That's like saying everyone watch HDTV tv. Most are still watching regular tv.

Watching a movie trailer at normal qt rez would be pedestrian.

Sorry to hear about that. I hope apple imporves this.
     
Stradlater
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Apr 30, 2005, 12:45 PM
 
I'll have to check on this when I get home. 17" 1.5GHz.
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silencedge
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Apr 30, 2005, 12:55 PM
 
Working perfectly fine on my 15" 1.33GHz. Smooth and of excellent quality.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 12:59 PM
 
hakstooy,

open activity monitor and make sure its the only app running and try again... maybe you have some haxies or something in the background taking up cpu?
     
hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 01:01 PM
 
Well, yes I suppose that a standard res trailer is more the norm. Now. But now that there is WM10 and Quicktime 7, and more films are being shot in HD, more and more trailers are going to be in HD as well. Or at least the option will be there.

So while, yes, one can always choose to watch the "medium" or "low" resolution, that should not be a requirement for smooth playback on a machine of the PowerBooks class. If this is a top end laptop, it should have no trouble playing back what is becoming the standard for video.

I have a monitor that can show it, and an internet connection that can download it, but my $3000 (this could just be a 12" thing, what with its crap GPU, so I guess it could be $2000) laptop doesn't have the salt?

Let's not forget that this laptop is still advertised as a portable solution for power users. How is Peter Jackson going to watch his shots on the way to the next set with a computer that drops frames? How is Rich McCallum going to show the latest effects renders in a meeting with a machine that can't keep up?

---

Although, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, and nothing BUT a dual G5 can do smooth playback. In which case, man has the media got ahead of the means.

---

As for CPU usage; QT's usage jumps as high as 104% during playback of the 1280x544 Batman trailer.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by hakstooy
Well, yes I suppose that a standard res trailer is more the norm. Now. But now that there is WM10 and Quicktime 7, and more films are being shot in HD, more and more trailers are going to be in HD as well. Or at least the option will be there.

So while, yes, one can always choose to watch the "medium" or "low" resolution, that should not be a requirement for smooth playback on a machine of the PowerBooks class. If this is a top end laptop, it should have no trouble playing back what is becoming the standard for video.

I have a monitor that can show it, and an internet connection that can download it, but my $3000 (this could just be a 12" thing, what with its crap GPU, so I guess it could be $2000) laptop doesn't have the salt?

Let's not forget that this laptop is still advertised as a portable solution for power users. How is Peter Jackson going to watch his shots on the way to the next set with a computer that drops frames? How is Rich McCallum going to show the latest effects renders in a meeting with a machine that can't keep up?

---

Although, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, and nothing BUT a dual G5 can do smooth playback. In which case, man has the media got ahead of the means.
the more i think about it the more i think you are right.

any luck with the suggestion i posted above?

what is the gpu in you PB?
     
hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 01:12 PM
 
(see my edit above for results on CPU use)

GeForce FX Go5200 w/ 64MB RAM.

It could be related to this, and I hope it is, because otherwise, this does not bode well if the G5 is really so far away from getting into a PowerBook.

Still, it would seem that Apple surely would have tested the QT builds on the 12" they just released in Jan. and if the sluggish playback is the result of the GPU, why didn't they upgrade it?

Maybe those that said the current PowerBooks are a stopgap before a major rebuild were right, and Apple was holding off until a major revision.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 01:14 PM
 
>Maybe those that said the current PowerBooks are a stopgap before a major rebuild were right, and Apple was holding off until a major revision.

I've got no doubt about that. I just bought a BTO 1.67 128 vram knowing full well (IMO) that the G5 powerbooks are coming this Sept.

But i have got work that neeeds to get done now so... Plus I can always sell it and buy a PBG5 once all the issues are worked out.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 01:22 PM
 
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...hreadid=123292

This may just be a tech that is only ready for G5s currently. Kinda like the Doom3 etc...
     
analogika
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Apr 30, 2005, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by osxisfun
the G5 powerbooks are coming this Sept.
I so wish you were right, but I'm sure you're wrong.

Not before next year.

We'll probably see dual-core G4 'books before the G5 - not that I'd complain about that...
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
I so wish you were right, but I'm sure you're wrong.

Not before next year.

We'll probably see dual-core G4 'books before the G5 - not that I'd complain about that...
yah. i am kinda hopin' i am wrong too. get a few more months out of my new PB...
     
hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by osxisfun
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...hreadid=123292

This may just be a tech that is only ready for G5s currently. Kinda like the Doom3 etc...
Hmm. Does look that way, huh?

Well, the system reqs that were posted for 720p (1.8 G5) are beyond what I've seen as the expected debut speed for a PowerBook G5, so if Apple is looking to release a PowerBook that can playback flawless 720p, then that might mean they are farther off than we think. (these reqs mean that 1080 is basically an impossibility, and should sink all those PowerBook HD theories)

If the reqs are this high, then this would lead me to think that Apple essentially knew there was nothing they could do about the PowerBooks in Jan. and so released what they had. That means that while a rebuild is certainly in the works, it could be farther off than most of us had been optimistically thinking.

I am really thinking that HD (being the year of and all) is a huge design factor for Apple's hardware at present and I imagine that we won't be seeing any updates for PowerBooks
until the chips are lined up (pun...har har) to enable 720p HD playback across the board.

---

What I don't get it is what hardware do HDTVs and HD tuners have that enable them to play back HD? Obviously its specialized hardware, but it obviously isn't as pricey as a pair o' G5s.

Maybe the cell is more a part of Apple's plan than most thought.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by hakstooy
Hmm. Does look that way, huh?

Well, the system reqs that were posted for 720p (1.8 G5) are beyond what I've seen as the expected debut speed for a PowerBook G5, so if Apple is looking to release a PowerBook that can playback flawless 720p, then that might mean they are farther off than we think. (these reqs mean that 1080 is basically an impossibility, and should sink all those PowerBook HD theories)

If the reqs are this high, then this would lead me to think that Apple essentially knew there was nothing they could do about the PowerBooks in Jan. and so released what they had. That means that while a rebuild is certainly in the works, it could be farther off than most of us had been optimistically thinking.

I am really thinking that HD (being the year of and all) is a huge design factor for Apple's hardware at present and I imagine that we won't be seeing any updates for PowerBooks
until the chips are lined up (pun...har har) to enable 720p HD playback across the board.

---

What I don't get it is what hardware do HDTVs and HD tuners have that enable them to play back HD? Obviously its specialized hardware, but it obviously isn't as pricey as a pair o' G5s.

Maybe the cell is more a part of Apple's plan than most thought.

good points. my gut tells me what you are saying. they are further along than we all think...
     
drprat
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Apr 30, 2005, 02:46 PM
 
i have a rev. c 12" w/ 768mb ram and the first batman hd trailer runs somewhat okay on my computer considering i still had a lot of things open (couldn't afford to lose my 10 safari tabs + other docs)... i was averaging about 18fps at 50% windowed mode (quicktime movie info window) and probably around 20fps in fullscreen mode (my estimate); the video is 24fps... for the 12" g4 i think that's more than acceptable... i personally don't think the 12" is intended for these kind of tasks and thus am not too disappointed by its performance... heck the resolution of the first hd video is greater than the native resolution of my screen... and i don't even see myself downloading these hd trailers... in conclusion, i feel that the 12" pb is just about right for its target market (can't speak for the 15/17); sure it's behind the higher-end pc laptop market, but i rather apple take its time to bring a g5 pb to the market...
     
drprat
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:03 PM
 
just noticed this... hd system recommendations:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgal...endations.html
     
hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:13 PM
 
It's certainly valid that when the architecture was designed for the current PowerBooks the demands of HD were unknown and so they weren't intended to play it.

I didn't expect it to be flawless, but I did expect it to be better. I had NO idea that the requirements for HD would be so high (after seeing the reqs I now know its not a Go5200 problem and that the 15 and 17 will not fare much better). I really expected this computer to be able to handle standards for a few years after I got it, and now, a few months in, its already stumbling.

Now we see that the state of media is moving beyond the capabilities of the current PowerBook. Not the state of a specialized market, but of the consumer market. HD is becoming the standard and will be all over the place within two years, which means that in two years, your Powerbook will seem very old. I also have an 867 TiBook and more than 2 years after its introduction, which was 2 years into its form factor, it is essentially on par with the current PowerBooks. Slower, yes, but it can handle everything they can. Which, up to HD, was everything.

I am not going to try and vilify Apple over this, but to me, it would be foolish to buy a PowerBook now that we know about H.264 and what the media demands. The current PowerBooks are, if not already, certainly freefalling towards being obsolete.

So, the argument that a PowerBook is more than adequate for mobile needs is no longer valid. That's all I'm saying. It is no longer in stride with the standards.
     
hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by drprat
just noticed this... hd system recommendations:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgal...endations.html
Did you miss the part where osxisfun and I were discussing the requirements?
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:16 PM
 
>I am not going to try and vilify Apple over this, but to me, it would be foolish to buy a PowerBook now that we know about H.264 and what the media demands.

But I got work todo today!

(plus i don't really play video all that much.) apple really needs to get the PBG5 if they want to hype the whole mobile final cut HD solution as you stated I agree...
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by osxisfun
>I am not going to try and vilify Apple over this, but to me, it would be foolish to buy a PowerBook now that we know about H.264 and what the media demands.

But I got work todo today!

(plus i don't really play video all that much.) apple really needs to get the PBG5 if they want to hype the whole mobile final cut HD solution as you stated I agree...
\

and what would the screen rez be on this new machine? thoughts?

i hope its not just on the 17". i almost bought one but its just too damn big for me.
     
hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by osxisfun
\

and what would the screen rez be on this new machine? thoughts?

i hope its not just on the 17". i almost bought one but its just too damn big for me.
I'm sure they'll release a 1920x1080 PowerBook at some point, but with reqs for 1080p at 2x2 G5, that's probably a few years down the line. Which would make sense when you think about it, when HD is everywhere it'll come out. Plus, this will be the time frame of 10.5, which should have scalable OS so your windows won't be microscopic.

If they have that, then as long as the price for the panels is acceptable, they'd probably throw them in the 15 too, I'd imagine.
     
osxisfun
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Apr 30, 2005, 03:27 PM
 
>which should have scalable OS so your windows won't be microscopic.

That's partially in 10.4 btw. You can turn it on with quartz debug. Obviously not ready for prime time but you can still try it out today...
     
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Apr 30, 2005, 07:26 PM
 
My 1.5 GHz PowerBook G4 can't play HD Trailers from Apple's Quictime Trailers page. Dropped frames and maybe 10-15 fps...on my top o the line PowerBook of last year. It can't play the freakin' trailers. It reminds me of years ago when I tried to play QT trailers on a Pentium 90 laptop. The G4 cannot play even 720p, let alone 1080p! $3000 for one year of video compatiblity! What laptop can play these files? None from Apple. I downloaded the Serenity 1080p trailer and I'm on OS 10.3.9. Maybe Tiger will help?
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hanxu
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Apr 30, 2005, 08:12 PM
 
I ran the 720p kinda ok, only few drop frames, but 1080p had a lot of dropped frames, but when i turn on quartz 2d extreme it runs slightly better (u have to install xcode and use quartz debugger to turn the quartz 2d etreme on), I hope the updates for tiger will turn the quartz 2d extreme by default and improve the play back.

I guess once the windows qt7 release, then most trailers will be on h.264, but won't be all hd
     
bovie
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Apr 30, 2005, 09:00 PM
 
The 720p trailers played fine on my 1.5Ghz 12inch. It could not take the 1080p. Also remember you will need a 3 or 3.2Ghz p4 to play the these. The 1.5Ghz G4 has a lot of horsepower. Would you be willing to use a 10+ pound crap pc laptop to play the 1080p movies? I say no!!!
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v.noir
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Apr 30, 2005, 09:04 PM
 
I'd be interested to see how the HD H.264 trailers work on our PC, an Athlon 2700+. I assume the Windows version of QT7 will have H.264 support!
     
bovie
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Apr 30, 2005, 10:29 PM
 
I remember about a year ago msoft was offering a HD demo vid encoded using wmp9. It was really really hard for my 3.2ghz P4 system. I would like a faster powerbook but when you compare apple's powerbooks to the same size and weight class in the pc world they compare quite well.
You can't say a 6.9pound 17inch powerbook compares to a 10+pound 17inch Dell with a REAL desktop cpu it in. Those things are heavy and LOUD. My Boss has a 17inch hp laptop and I am telling you his power adapter wights more than my 1.5ghz 12incher.

Apple could shut everybuddy up by releaseing a 2inch thick g5 powerbook. It would still look cool because it is a apple.
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hakstooy  (op)
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Apr 30, 2005, 11:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by bovie
I remember about a year ago msoft was offering a HD demo vid encoded using wmp9. It was really really hard for my 3.2ghz P4 system. I would like a faster powerbook but when you compare apple's powerbooks to the same size and weight class in the pc world they compare quite well.
You can't say a 6.9pound 17inch powerbook compares to a 10+pound 17inch Dell with a REAL desktop cpu it in. Those things are heavy and LOUD. My Boss has a 17inch hp laptop and I am telling you his power adapter wights more than my 1.5ghz 12incher.

Apple could shut everybuddy up by releaseing a 2inch thick g5 powerbook. It would still look cool because it is a apple.
I'm not saying Apple is making a mistake by not releasing a mongo PowerBook that could substitute for fortification material. I'm saying its time people stopped saying "The PowerBook is all you need for a mobile platform."

Cause it ain't.

Does that mean there is such an option in the x86 world? Immaterial to what I'm saying.

However, lets look at the x86 HD reqs as sourced from Microsoft: "A 2.4-gigahertz (GHz) Intel Pentium 4 processor (or equivalent) is recommended for smooth 720p playback and a 3.0 GHz Pentium 4 processor (or equivalent) for 1080p playback." Now, we all know that the Pentium M is faster clock for clock than the P4, and it tops out at 2 GHz, which is as fast or faster than a 3 GHz P4.

Wait, I can get a IBM T43 that has a 15" screen and is 5.5 lbs and 1" thick (holy crap, is that thinner AND lighter than a 15" PowerBook...) w/ a 2 GHz P-M and PCIe to boot. All for less than the PowerBook. And, it can playback 1080p.

So where does this leave the PowerBooks or this supposed unreasonable performance requirement?

----

Thinking about it, don't these demands seem pretty light for x86? I mean, a 2.4 P4, that's what...a 3 year old processor? What the heck is the deal there?
( Last edited by hakstooy; May 1, 2005 at 12:25 AM. )
     
MilkmanDan
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May 1, 2005, 03:21 AM
 
How about the old Pismo design G5? Although the widescreen is the bomb.
     
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May 1, 2005, 03:33 AM
 
Well, I tried the 720p Serenity trailer, and while not smooth, the playback was watchable. It looked like around 15 fps. It helped when I used the fastest setting in energy saver. I'll probably buy Tiger later this month so that may help as well.

The HD quality is really impressive. The clarity is amazing and makes DVD's look stale and fuzzy in comparison. I'm hoping Apple will improve QT7 and playback will be smoother for us 1 year old PowerBook owners.
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SEkker
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May 1, 2005, 12:01 PM
 
I think the real problem is that a 'powerbook', as originally conceived, was to be the notebook for the professional -- like the dual G5 machines are for the desktop -- but we now have is really an extensive consumer line. For MOST needs, the current consumer line is sufficient (in terms of raw horsepower) with decent cost and high elegance.

I own a more than 2 year old Apple high end laptop -- the best available at the time of the order, a rev A PB 17 -- and it was really underpowered then. In other words, the CPU was not able to keep up with all the capabilities and uses I'd really like to use this machine, including the video and other desktop publishing needs I do on a regular (tho not daily) basis. Fast forward 2+ years, and the CPU speed has increased a total of 67% -- it's even worse when you consider that I could have purchased a 1 GHz Titanium in 2002.

For my needs, and those here dabbling in HD video (an area we are awaiting the tools to make it to the market for scientific applications), a dual 1.4 GHz G4 powerbook, made possible by underclocking the 1.67 CPUs and fixing issues with the motherboard, would be a terrific (and real) 'power'book. But the market appears to be too small for Apple to expend the investment $$ into such a specialized machine, especially when they keep hoping for a magic solution to arrive -- either a dual core G4, or a mobile G5 processor.

We're in the eye of the storm -- Apple is waiting, like us, for either Freescale/moto or IBM to come up with a technical solution that is worth redesigning the motherboard on all their laptops. I just purchased a replacement rechargeable battery for my PB17 to hold me over another year or so while I enjoy exploring Tiger.

In the meantime, for MOST users, and for the overwhelming needs of almost everyone, the speed of the current lineup IS sufficient. For the rest of us who push the technology, alas, the real innovation is now happening on the 'dark side'. Face it -- the market for special high end laptops that run windows is larger than the entire mac power laptop market. I estimate I have 2-3 years before the HD video cameras appear for my needs. If Apple does have a decent laptop for me by then, I will have to purchase a windows machine (I'd still keep my Mac for general use). Apple knows this very well.
     
mpbritt
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May 1, 2005, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by hakstooy
Normally, I basically tend to agree with you. The PowerBooks, while using outdated tech while still charging a premium, certainly handled most tasks just fine. Only really intensive work like encoding video or audio would bring them to their knees. But, if you were doing that kind of work, you really should have a desktop anyway.

Well, that's changed. Cause welcome to H.264. In the land of High-Def, the poor PowerBook can't keep up.

My 1.33 12" CPU gets pegged when running the 1280x544 trailers from Apple's site, and it drops quite a few frames. The action, while crystal clear (H.264 is freaking amazing) is herky-jerky the whole way through.

As for the 1080 versions...heh, forget it. You're lucky to get enough frames to come through to even know whats going on.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but I would consider watching a move trailer to be somewhat pedestrian usage of any computer, let alone a "professional" one. And while HD ain't everywhere yet, it certainly will be rapidly expanding, and if you're looking for a good solid 2-3 grand worth of machine to last you a few years, these guys ain't gonna cut it.
You must be on a dial-up connection. My 15" 1.5Ghz PowerBook with 64MB GPU and 1 GB RAM plays the HD trailers on Apple's HD Theater web page just fine. And they look beautiful!

I find your comment that PowerBooks are "outdated tech" to be, honestly, flame-bait. The current crop of PowerBooks are just as good as most of what you can get on the dark side, except in very rare cases. Plus we now have a far superior OS in the form of TIger. In my opinion there is nothing "outdated" about my PowerBook, even though it is almost year old.
     
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May 1, 2005, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by mpbritt
You must be on a dial-up connection. My 15" 1.5Ghz PowerBook with 64MB GPU and 1 GB RAM plays the HD trailers on Apple's HD Theater web page just fine. And they look beautiful!
Download the 1080 Serenity trailer and tell me that you get more than, like, 0.5FPS. Of course, I have to wonder if this is because it's such a huge movie. Seriously, if you open it up at actual size in QuickTime Player on my 15", one quarter of the movie fills up my entire screen. I really didn't grasp that when people said "high definition," they meant that high.
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mpbritt
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May 1, 2005, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Download the 1080 Serenity trailer and tell me that you get more than, like, 0.5FPS. Of course, I have to wonder if this is because it's such a huge movie. Seriously, if you open it up at actual size in QuickTime Player on my 15", one quarter of the movie fills up my entire screen. I really didn't grasp that when people said "high definition," they meant that high.
I have done this. Guess what? The trailer plays fine on my PowerBook. Even with iTunes playing in the background.
     
mpbritt
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May 1, 2005, 07:28 PM
 
I posted my last reply to quickly, it seems. You are correct that the playback of the 1080 trailer does, indeed, suck. I was playing the trailer encoded in H.264 and had not seen the link to download the 1080 trailer. My apologies for jumping the gun on the "Post" button.

But I do feel my original point is valid. In my opinion the PowerBooks are not "outdated tech."
     
analogika
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May 1, 2005, 08:10 PM
 
If you use the 1080 trailer as a yardstick, then ANYTHING less than a dual 2-GHz G5 is "outdated" technology.
     
McFarmer
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May 1, 2005, 11:20 PM
 
I can understand if people are miffed. When Apple brags about HD trailers on their QT 7 page and none of their portable machines has the specs to play it. Not even the super-douper super-expensive top model. And not even close: no G5, no dual, no HD screen. It just won't work unless Apple drastically redesigns the top of the line PowerBook.

Year of HD?

Nope. Forget about it! That'll turn out to be just some marketing slogan. As much as last year was the 'Year of the PowerBook'.

Remember? It wasn't. Neither will 2005.

Btw just for the record. My 1.33GHz 12" PB with 64MB VRAM and Tiger installed plays the 720p trailers at somewhere between 12 to 18 frames, which is not great, but bearable. Telling from these frame rates it'll need at least a 2GHz processor to run at the intended 24fps. But I guess it is the 166MHz bus that is to blame, not the CPU...

The 1080p trailers play at 2-4 frames per second. Which is simply useless.
I do not see how any PowerBook can be suitable to play HD trailers, unless they get dual G5 CPUs.
But who knows? Perhaps there will be new 'Pro PowerMacs' with dual dual-core chips and some 'Pro PowerBook' with HD screen, slightly thicker and heavier, but with proper performance.

Wishful thinking...
( Last edited by McFarmer; May 1, 2005 at 11:27 PM. )
     
itguy05
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May 2, 2005, 12:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by McFarmer
But I guess it is the 166MHz bus that is to blame, not the CPU...
Not really - the 166 to Quad pumped 133 (133 * 4 = 533 Mhz) of the P4 is only good for a 10-20% increase in performance. So it still won't do it. What I think the problem is that these new codecs need a fast processor and decent hard drive performance, something that a laptop really won't do well.

My guess is that these codecs are very computation heavy (as they would need to be to squeeze this much detail) and will need lots of HP to decode. Or a dedicated processor like we saw way back when with MPEG2 (DVD's) before the CPU's cought up. I remember back in the P2 days where for DVD playback you needed a separate MPEG2 card. Maybe we'll rekindle that with an MPEG4 card?
     
cef
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May 2, 2005, 12:32 AM
 
1 GHz RevA 17" powerbook here, running 10.3.9. Non-1080 trailers played fine (once I downloaded them) in that there were no dropped frames or stuttering, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't 30fps either. In some places things just didn't seem smooth enough. Maybe I'm overanalyzing.

Serenity @ 1080 barfed all over my machine. Dropped frames out the kazoo and, as already reported, about 1fps. Audio was fine, though. So much for that experiment. Just thought you'd all like to know.
     
hakstooy  (op)
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May 2, 2005, 12:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by mpbritt
You must be on a dial-up connection. My 15" 1.5Ghz PowerBook with 64MB GPU and 1 GB RAM plays the HD trailers on Apple's HD Theater web page just fine. And they look beautiful!

I find your comment that PowerBooks are "outdated tech" to be, honestly, flame-bait. The current crop of PowerBooks are just as good as most of what you can get on the dark side, except in very rare cases. Plus we now have a far superior OS in the form of TIger. In my opinion there is nothing "outdated" about my PowerBook, even though it is almost year old.
For one thing, why the hell do some people here have the knee-jerk reaction to any negative interpretation of Apple as "flame-bait"?

Thanks for discrediting my comments out of hand. Appreciate it. Did you even bother to read why I said the things I did? Cause I'm miffed as to how you'd come to that conclusion. Anyway...

It is apparent that Apple's portable hardware is not sufficient for the demands of the market. The PowerBook has been the choice of the video industry for a multitude of reasons, but that is all irrelevant now because they can't even playback the freakin media, let alone modify it. Final Cut is a great program, but if producers and editors can't showcase their goods via a portable platform, the industry will move to hardware that can. There are affordable mobile x86 options that can playback 1080p flawlessly while Apple doesn't even have anything that can manage 720p without issue.

So where are the pros gonna turn? No matter how great Final Cut is, the industry is going HD and Apple's hardware simply can't cut it. The benefits of the best software in the world doesn't beat the almighty dollar and real world logistics.

They have hit a major, major wall. The 2x2 G5 (req for 1080p) was the fastest 2 years ago, which is similar to where Intel/AMD was at. Yet the x86 world, while still dealing with 90nm, has manuevered so that HD capability (even 1080p) is basically available across the board. Has Apple done this? No. Not even arguably so.

Don't get me wrong, I love Apple industrial design (I was an ID major), and their engineers are top-notch. I will probably stick with Apple hardware, but I openly admit it is behind the times right now. Sure the software is great, but I am freakin sick and tired of people saying "Well try running OS X on that T43", THATS NOT THE POINT!!!

Apple is a great company, their user goals are much more in line with mine and their implementation is second to none, but it seems like they are resting on their *cough* ipod *cough* laurels here and expecting the faithful to keep in step while the Mac line languishes. Maybe something big is in the works...but maybe not.

All I can say is that if after waking up to this world of HD you go out and buy a PowerBook, you are either foolish or superficial (sure they're pretty, but so are the older ones on eBay).

I have bought 3 PowerBooks from Apple in the past year (close to 10 grand for those counting) and they will not see another cent of mine until they do something about the anemic progress of their hardware.
     
bovie
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May 2, 2005, 12:52 AM
 
well the 720p plays on my 12in 1.5 at around 16-24fps. Even when it is around 15 and 16fps it looks fine. But the 1080 plays like crap. Just remember I was one of the 1st people to get a dvd-rom in my computer back in the day. It would skip quite often but, after a 2 or 3 years compluters would play them and never skip. In 2007 or 8 almost everyone will have a mac or pc that plays HD great.
iMac 20in, 2.0Ghz, 1.5GB Ram, Mac OS X 10.4 - Windows XP Pro
PowerBook 12in, 1.5Ghz G4, 1.25GB Ram, Mac OS X 10.4
PowerMac 1.3Ghz G4, 1GB Ram, Radeon 8500, OS X Server 10.4
     
hakstooy  (op)
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May 2, 2005, 12:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
If you use the 1080 trailer as a yardstick, then ANYTHING less than a dual 2-GHz G5 is "outdated" technology.
Well, consider that that is 2 year old technology.

Then consider where the PowerBooks are at.

Then consider where a 2 GHz P-M is.

Then wonder why the hell you'd buy a PowerBook for 3 large.
     
hakstooy  (op)
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May 2, 2005, 01:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by bovie
well the 720p plays on my 12in 1.5 at around 16-24fps. Even when it is around 15 and 16fps it looks fine. But the 1080 plays like crap. Just remember I was one of the 1st people to get a dvd-rom in my computer back in the day. It would skip quite often but, after a 2 or 3 years compluters would play them and never skip. In 2007 or 8 almost everyone will have a mac or pc that plays HD great.
OK, but that is granted.

If, then, Apples hardware is not behind the times, why must I wait 2 to 3 years for HD playback when I can get a portable x86 solution now that is thinner and lighter than a PowerBook?

I probably won't jump ship, I enjoy OS X too much. But I do use both platforms on a daily basis, so I can use one of the budget PCs at work whenever I want to watch a HD trailer. I often advise IT at my lab and I will most certainly not advise any mobile Apple purchases any time soon.

My honest feeling is that I am pissed off.

I really feel like Apple is coasting on the iPod money and the devotion of its fans due to its software and industrial design while ignoring its Mac hardware. Sure IBM is responsible for their chips, but who decides which GPUs go in? Who decides to charge $3000 for an obsolete laptop? Microsoft can apparently pressure IBM into delivering what they want, why can't Apple?
     
Graymalkin
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May 2, 2005, 03:21 AM
 
So you're telling me that your Powerbooks with 1.3GHz+ processors aren't running the HD trailers better than my two year old 867MHz 12" Powerbook? I saved the Serenity trailer to disk and played it and I was getting ~15fps with a few drops below that in the fast moving fight scenes. While H.264 is an awesome codec it requires a metric buttload of processing power even at relatively low bitrates. MPEG-2 video at 6Mbps, which is about the bitrate of the 720p trailers, will be much smoother on the same hardware as H.264. The difference is the H.264 video is packing more data into the bitstream that needs to be processed. It is also written as a delivery format so decoders aren't meant to drop frames to keep overal performance up. Contrast this scheme to OfflineRT which is meant to keep up system performance to scaling playback quality and framerates to keep up with the available power.

Complaining that HD can't be edited on a laptop is absurd. There's a reason FCP has the ability to capture to and edit in OfflineRT. Most computers without gobs of memory and dedicated video processors can't handle uncompressed SD video, let alone HD. OfflineRT lets you edit frame, time, and color accurate video at a fraction of the bitrate of uncompressed video without the amazing processing overhead of codecs like H.264. When you're all done editing you can take your project to your bad-ass desktop and recapture everything from your VTR in full quality and render it out. As a test, I exported the Serenity trailer out to DVCPRO (~24Mbps) and it played back smooth as silk on my Powerbook. So the bitrate and video size isn't terribly important, the amount of processing that needs to be done to decode every single frame is. Ergo, I could edit DVCPRO without too much trouble provided I had enough disk space. With some extra memory and maybe a bit quicker of a processor I doubt DVCPRO-HD would be all that bad to edit either. Codecs designed for editing are a bit different than ones designed for delivery.

It is also quite absurd to suggest Apple is 1) riding on iPod money and 2) ignoring Mac hardware. While the iPod is pretty wildly successful it is by no means the only source of income for the company. Considering they sold a million Macs in two consecutive quarters ought to dispel that notion. The iPod is also a solid device and in no way detriments the Mac. In fact I'd argue the the iPod is extremely good for Macs. For starters it gets people looking at Apple products and into Apple Stores. If the iPod is awesome maybe a Mac would be awesome as well. This has been widely discussed so I won't rehash the concept. What I will point out is the iPod is getting Quicktime installed and regularly updated on millions of PCs where it wasn't there before. Want an iPod? You're going to need Quicktime to run iTunes. The first-class media citizen of MacOS has a huge install base due in part to the iPod and also to an extent the iTMS. This is a good thing for all Mac users because content producers will keep using Quicktime for delivery or expand their use of Quicktime.

As for ignoring Mac hardware, I don't know where this meme comes from. Apple sells their laptops based around the notion that you can have a very capable laptop that doesn't weigh ten pounds and actually fits in a regular backpack or brief case. I'm sure they could stick a G5 in a Powerbook is they were willing to have it weigh ten pounds and be two inches thick. It would run like the wind for the whole hour the battery lasted. I would love a G5 Powerbook but until I can get one that runs as cool as current G4s and for as long I'd rather they keep up the hard work.
     
Simon
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May 2, 2005, 03:24 AM
 
I just played the Serenity clip on my 1.67GHz 15" PowerBook (with 128MB VRAM BTO option) and I must say it's smooth as silk. No lag, no skips, no nothing. Perfect sharp and fluid playback. I'd let it compete with any PC notebook. Btw, H.264 is truly amazing.
     
jamil5454
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May 2, 2005, 07:21 AM
 
As Graymalkin was saying, I also think the main problem lies with the H.264 codec itself. It's not that the PowerBooks can't play 720 or 1080 content, just that they can't do it using H.264 at the moment. Apple will continue to optimize H.264 to getter performance out of it, and I wouldn't be surprised if new PowerBooks have a 17" HD screen with dual core G4 or even a G5.
     
hakstooy  (op)
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May 2, 2005, 08:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
I just played the Serenity clip on my 1.67GHz 15" PowerBook (with 128MB VRAM BTO option) and I must say it's smooth as silk. No lag, no skips, no nothing. Perfect sharp and fluid playback. I'd let it compete with any PC notebook. Btw, H.264 is truly amazing.
Well, I'll assume you're playing the 720p clip. Still, you really got 24 fps? 'Cause Apple lists a 1.8 G5 as necessary to do that.

Originally Posted by jamil5454
Apple will continue to optimize H.264 to getter performance out of it
I was under the impression H.264 was an industry standard that Apple has adopted, not created. So how could they optimize it? I could be mistaken here.

Graymalkin, you're soliloquy on codecs was informative, but it really doesn't change what I'm getting at; which is that Apple's portable hardware isn't even close to having the performance to play the standard that video media will be released in.

Toshiba plans to release an HD-DVD notebook in Q4 of this year. Sure that will be a high-end model (probably priced around a PowerBook) but that is where the market is going. For Apple to attempt to do that they would have to put out a 2x2 G5 PowerBook. Which is a smidgen past the 1.67 G4 they have now.

I also never complained about not being able to edit HD on a notebook, I even stated in my first post that I thought such complaints were unrealistic. Still, it appears there are x86 notebooks available now that could do so. So, its not entirely absurd is it?

I never said the iPod wasn't good for Apple, and I never said it didn't help sell Macs. In fact I somewhat inferred that it is because it is so good and helps Apple so much that they seem to be content to ride out the current trough in chip development. I certainly think it is plausible that the thinking at Apple goes like this: "Well, the iPod is spreading like herpes in a whorehouse and its raising consumer awareness of our machines like gangbusters. So, since we are pulling in good revenue, lets not put too many resources into updating the Macs until IBM sorts out these chip issues."

And still, it seems to me you are trying to skirt my point, creating an argument in areas where one may actually exist. Again, what I'm saying is that:

The market is going HD (heck, Apple is a driving force here), the media is beginning its migration, and while the current x86 mobile hardware is completely capable of handling this media, Apple's is apparently several years away from being able to do so.

If Apple's notebooks are in line with the market, then why can I get an 15" x86 laptop that can play 1080p and is lighter and thinner than the current 15" PowerBook, while the only possible scenario for Apple would be some gargantuan 15 lb monstrosity?
     
Simon
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May 2, 2005, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by hakstooy
Well, I'll assume you're playing the 720p clip. Still, you really got 24 fps? 'Cause Apple lists a 1.8 G5 as necessary to do that.
Yeah. I was playing the 720p clip. The other one wouldn't fit on my internal screen.

I indeed got the 24fps. It once dropped to 21 quickly, but went right away back to 24.



Of course I wasn't rendering in the background or something, but it was a real-life test in the sense that I had all my other apps open, iTunes running, etc. It felt good alright. Is my 128MB VRAM helping or is it just that the PowerBook is better than some claim?
( Last edited by Simon; May 2, 2005 at 08:36 AM. )
     
f1000
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May 2, 2005, 09:25 AM
 
PLEASE READ THIS COMMENT BEFORE POSTING!

NOBODY CAN PLAY THE H.264 ENCODED 1080P HD CLIPS AT MORE THAN 5 FPS ON A POWERBOOK. IF YOU CLAIM OTHERWISE, YOU AREN'T PLAYING THE RIGHT CLIPS. IF YOU WANT TO VERIFY THAT YOU ARE INDEED PLAYING BACK 1080P FILES, CHOOSE SHOW MOVIE INFO FROM THE QT PLAYER MENU. 1080P = 1920 x 1080. DON�T POST SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSIONS OF FPS; GET IT FROM THE SHOW MOVIE INFO WINDOW. THANK YOU FOR KEEPING THIS THREAD OBJECTIVE.

Ahem, I remember getting into a little debate with Eug Wanker about the need for H.264. Those of us with an interest in HD had already noticed that MPEG-2 wasn't being supported fully by Apple. 1080i MPEG-2 files, for example, play back at about 6 fps on a 1 GHz PowerBook.

H.264 was not meant to speed up playback; it was meant to save space and bandwidth. Saving space and bandwith is all good and fine, but for me playback speed is the NUMBER ONE factor in a delivery codec. Storage is cheap and bandwidth is fast enough that I frankly don't need H.264 (in fact, Verizon recently installed fiber optic at my house!). I would much rather that Apple had added GPU acceleration to their MPEG-2 component. As I said to Eug Wanker before, who needs a more compact codec IF IT CAN'T PLAY THE MINIMUM FPS NECESSARY TO BE USABLE?

H.264 is clearly a codec for the future. Once Apple starts adding video cards with H.264 GPU acceleration to its lineup, then we'll all be able to watch HD on G4 PowerBooks. Right now, H.264 must be decoded in software so all but the fastest G5's are going to choke playing back 1080 material. Even PCs without H.264 GPU acceleration are going to have major problems playing back these files.

I�d be surprised if new PowerBooks with H.264 capable video cards weren�t just around the corner. My guess is that Apple is skipping MPEG-2 and going right for H.264 to coincide with the introduction of HD DVD. Of course, that means we'll all have to upgrade our PowerBooks in order to watch 1080P content.
( Last edited by f1000; May 2, 2005 at 09:31 AM. )
     
 
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