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Originally Posted by jokell82
Yup
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Originally Posted by icruise
The PS2 was most definitely not cheap back when people were saying things like that about it.
Beat me to it.
What was the big game that was dropped because of that bullsh*t? Oddworld? I'm not saying it would have sold more on the PS2, but in retrospect it looks like it was a stupid move.
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Originally Posted by icruise
The PS2 was most definitely not cheap back when people were saying things like that about it.
$299 was a lot more reasonable than $599/$499.
And starman - if that was the article you were talking about it did not give me any interest in playing the game. All it did was talk about how good the dev's testing procedures were. Although I do appreciate that - more games should have to go through the testing that Halo 3 is undergoing.
But the article talked about nothing revolutionary or original about the game. It will be just another FPS, albeit an insanely popular one.
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Originally Posted by jokell82
$299 was a lot more reasonable than $599/$499.
And starman - if that was the article you were talking about it did not give me any interest in playing the game. All it did was talk about how good the dev's testing procedures were. Although I do appreciate that - more games should have to go through the testing that Halo 3 is undergoing.
But the article talked about nothing revolutionary or original about the game. It will be just another FPS, albeit an insanely popular one.
LAWL.
First off, the PS2 was expensive FOR ITS TIME. This isn't a PS2 coming out in 2007, it's coming out in 2000 when you can get a Dreamcast for what, $199? That's $100 LESS than the PS2 and the PS2 kicked ass AND the PS2 was a cheap DVD player for most people.
As for Halo 3, I found a ton of information in there about balance and design which shows that there's a lot more to the game than "just another FPS".
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Originally Posted by icruise
The PS2 was most definitely not cheap back when people were saying things like that about it.
And what other consoles were available when people were sayings things "like that about it?"
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Originally Posted by jokell82
$299 was a lot more reasonable than $599/$499.
Are you serious? At the time it came out, the PS2 was the most expensive console. goMac was arguing that the PS2 became popular because it was cheap, which is totally wrong. Yeah, it was cheaper than both the Xbox 360 and the PS3 are today, but that has exactly zero relevance to this argument.
Originally Posted by goMac
And what other consoles were available when people were sayings things "like that about it?"
What are you saying?
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Originally Posted by goMac
And what other consoles were available when people were sayings things "like that about it?"
OMG. Didn't you read above? The DREAMCAST. Also the Sega Saturn. The Dreamcast was ahead of the PS2 by a year.
EDIT: Not to sound elitist, but if you have to actually ask questions like that, WTF are you doing in a thread like this?
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Originally Posted by starman
LAWL.
First off, the PS2 was expensive FOR ITS TIME. This isn't a PS2 coming out in 2007, it's coming out in 2000 when you can get a Dreamcast for what, $199? That's $100 LESS than the PS2 and the PS2 kicked ass AND the PS2 was a cheap DVD player for most people.
As for Halo 3, I found a ton of information in there about balance and design which shows that there's a lot more to the game than "just another FPS".
The original Playstation launched for $299, so I'm not sure you can call the successor expensive when it launches for the same price...
And it sounds like it's going to be a well designed, well balanced game, but nothing about the game itself is new.
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Originally Posted by starman
OMG. Didn't you read above? The DREAMCAST. Also the Sega Saturn. The Dreamcast was ahead of the PS2 by a year.
EDIT: Not to sound elitist, but if you have to actually ask questions like that, WTF are you doing in a thread like this?
The Sega Saturn was NOT a competitor to the PS2. The Dreamcast was, though.
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Originally Posted by starman
OMG. Didn't you read above? The DREAMCAST. Also the Sega Saturn. The Dreamcast was ahead of the PS2 by a year.
EDIT: Not to sound elitist, but if you have to actually ask questions like that, WTF are you doing in a thread like this?
The SATURN? A competitor to the PS2?
Both the Gamecube and the XBox didn't show up until a year after the PS2. This gave the PS2 a very large headstart on marketshare, and really didn't leave very much choice for game developers who, you know, actually wanted to sell a lot of games.
This time around the PS3 doesn't have that advantage. Why would game developers waste time coding a game for a difficult platform to code for that few people will buy?
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He asked what consoles were AVAILABLE, not COMPETING.
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Originally Posted by goMac
The SATURN? A competitor to the PS2?
Both the Gamecube and the XBox didn't show up until a year after the PS2. This gave the PS2 a very large headstart on marketshare, and really didn't leave very much choice for game developers who, you know, actually wanted to sell a lot of games.
This time around the PS3 doesn't have that advantage. Why would game developers waste time coding a game for a difficult platform to code for that few people will buy?
Your own DIRECT QUOTE:
Originally Posted by goMac
And what other consoles were available when people were sayings things "like that about it?"
As for the PS2's head start, you (again) forget that the Dreamcast had a 1 year head start on the PS2 and was apparently "easier to code for", so I don't see your point at all.
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Originally Posted by starman
He asked what consoles were AVAILABLE, not COMPETING.
Huh? Even if that's what I meant, the Saturn had gone off the market 2 years before the PS2 hit the market...
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Originally Posted by starman
As for the PS2's head start, you (again) forget that the Dreamcast had a 1 year head start on the PS2 and was apparently "easier to code for", so I don't see your point at all.
You're talking about Sega who at the time had a horrible reputation? The reason the Dreamcast didn't sell well as time went on was because no one was interested in Sega after the Saturn aside from the fanboys...
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Originally Posted by goMac
You're talking about Sega who at the time had a horrible reputation? The reason the Dreamcast didn't sell well as time went on was because no one was interested in Sega after the Saturn aside from the fanboys...
Jesus Christ. Do a little research.
"Dreamcast enjoyed brisk sales in its first season, and was one of Sega's most successful hardware units. In the United States alone, a record 300,000 units[4] had been pre-ordered before launch and Sega sold 500,000 consoles in just two weeks (including 225,000 sold on the first 24 hours which became a video game record). In fact, due to brisk sales and hardware shortages, Sega was unable to fulfill all of the advance orders."
Dreamcast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Emphasis mine.
Where exactly WERE you back then?
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Originally Posted by starman
Jesus Christ. Do a little research.
"Dreamcast enjoyed brisk sales in its first season, and was one of Sega's most successful hardware units. In the United States alone, a record 300,000 units[4] had been pre-ordered before launch and Sega sold 500,000 consoles in just two weeks (including 225,000 sold on the first 24 hours which became a video game record). In fact, due to brisk sales and hardware shortages, Sega was unable to fulfill all of the advance orders."
Dreamcast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You're talking about Sega who at the time had a horrible reputation? The reason the Dreamcast didn't sell well as time went on was because no one was interested in Sega after the Saturn aside from the fanboys...
Seriously now. Read what I said.
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Where do you get that the Dreamcast and/or Sega had a "horrible reputation"? If it was so goddamn terrible, how did it break records?
Again, I fail to see your logic. Oh, that's right, you just like to bash Sony.
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The Dreamcast is still my favorite system of all time. That machine was awesome. RUE?
To be fair, though, Sega did have a pretty poor public perception after the bomb of the Saturn.
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Originally Posted by starman
Where do you get that the Dreamcast and/or Sega had a "horrible reputation"? If it was so goddamn terrible, how did it break records?
Again, I fail to see your logic. Oh, that's right, you just like to bash Sony.
Are you kidding? I was a huge Sega fanboy back then, and I remember all the crap Sega pushed out that made me abandon Sega. The Sega CD, Sega 32X and Saturn where all huge failures. After I beta tested the Saturn and realized it sucked, I jumped ship to the N64.
Yes, the Dreamcast had a great launch. But when the PS2 got to the market, people looked at the Sony brandname which had had great success with the PS1, and the Sega brand name which just had 3 stinkers, people chose the Sony brand name.
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I still fail to see how Sega could have poor public perception and still break sales records. Are you saying there were 500,000 Sega fanboys? I still have a Dreamcast, it was amazing. The thing STILL has software written for it.
It seems like nobody wants to admit that the PS2 was just a better machine.
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Originally Posted by starman
I still fail to see how Sega could have poor public perception and still break sales records. Are you saying there were 500,000 Sega fanboys? I still have a Dreamcast, it was amazing. The thing STILL has software written for it.
It seems like nobody wants to admit that the PS2 was just a better machine.
Huh? The PS2 sold FAR better than the Dreamcast. It's a question of marketshare. Everyone wrote for the PS2 because it sold better. And by the time the Gamecube and XBox launched, the PS2 sold better because more people wrote for it.
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Originally Posted by starman
I still fail to see how Sega could have poor public perception and still break sales records. Are you saying there were 500,000 Sega fanboys? I still have a Dreamcast, it was amazing. The thing STILL has software written for it.
It seems like nobody wants to admit that the PS2 was just a better machine.
I don't know that I'd call it better. The DVD drive was really the only main advantage of the hardware. But the Dreamcast was smaller and quieter. Plus the DC games at the PS2 launch looked MUCH better than the PS2. But the Playstation name was just too much to overcome at the time.
I still prefer the DC controller (blasphemy, I know). And the VMU was a very cool idea, especially for games like Madden where you could pick your plays from your controller, away from the prying eyes of your opponent.
Edit - I'm not trying to say anything bad about the PS2, it was (and still is) a great machine. At the time I was definitely a Dreamcast fan, though.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Huh? The PS2 sold FAR better than the Dreamcast. It's a question of marketshare. Everyone wrote for the PS2 because it sold better. And by the time the Gamecube and XBox launched, the PS2 sold better because more people wrote for it.
You forgot the original point already.
"The PS2 is hard to write for".
If it was so hard to write for, then why didn't it fail?
The point of this whole part of the thread is that "it's too hard to write for" was total bullsh*t then, and it is now, and how a higher priced machine beat its competition.
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"It's hard to write for" may not necessarily be bullshit. If the marketshare is there, the developers will code for it *regardless* of how hard it is to write for. However, if the machine is difficult to code for and has a small user-base, there is less incentive for the developer to write the code.
With 4+ million consoles sold, I doubt anyone will be abandoning the PS3, though.
I think the biggest impact could be from games that may have gone cross-platform that stay 360 or Wii exclusive because it's more difficult to port the game to the PS3. That's *IF* the console really is harder to code for.
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Originally Posted by starman
"The PS2 is hard to write for".
Because it was the only relevant competition on the market at the time it was launched. The PS2 sold very well at launch, so people wrote for it, whether or not they wanted to. Because people wrote for it, more people bought the PS2. Because more people bought the PS2, more people wrote for it. Because more people wrote for the PS2, more people continued to buy it, and so on.
The PS3 is in the opposite situation. The XBox 360 has much higher marketshare, so more people write for the XBox than the PS3 (compounded by the PS3 being harder to program for). Because less people write for the PS3, less people buy it. Because less people buy it, less people write for it... and so on...
Sega had already alienated it's 3rd party devs with the Saturn. It's not surprising that more 3rd party devs wrote for the PS2.
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I think that the tools Sony provides are difficult to use. I had the Xbox development kit. I wrote an app in like 30 minutes. Why? Because the Xbox dev kit was basically using Visual Studio.
"Hard to write for" may mean "what is this stupid IDE? I want to put my headers where _I_ want them". I'd really like to know exactly what's so damn hard about it. It might be hard to get more power out of it, but what's so difficult about the thing?
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This argument is not really about whether the PS2 or PS3 is harder to code for than other consoles. Unless you're a programmer, you probably don't care. What matters is whether this difference (if it indeed exists) would be so severe as to affect the success of the console as a whole -- either because companies will decide not to bother with the PS3, or because games will be constantly delayed/buggy. I personally doubt that will be the case. Programmers will learn to cope with any differences that exist. The PS3 is doing relatively badly because it's expensive and still doesn't have enough games to back up that price (and also because HD video isn't really as popular as Sony was apparently hoping it would be, so the Blu-ray player isn't quite as much of a draw as they probably expected). In the end, I don't think the issue of it being difficult to code for will affect much of anything, at least beyond the first year or two.
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28 out of 75 games is hardly a majority. Your list only covers top rated games. Of course, these include Playstation Network downloadable games as well.
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Not to mention more than a few of those games are not exclusive to the PS3 anyways.
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Originally Posted by icruise
28 out of 75 games is hardly a majority. Your list only covers top rated games. Of course, these include Playstation Network downloadable games as well.
Ha. WHOOPS
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Originally Posted by starman
I think that the tools Sony provides are difficult to use. I had the Xbox development kit. I wrote an app in like 30 minutes. Why? Because the Xbox dev kit was basically using Visual Studio.
"Hard to write for" may mean "what is this stupid IDE? I want to put my headers where _I_ want them". I'd really like to know exactly what's so damn hard about it. It might be hard to get more power out of it, but what's so difficult about the thing?
I don't think that's it. The design of the PS3 is literally bassackwards. If the Cell was the GPU, and they had like a PowerPC 970 of multiple cores acting as CPU, the console would have been astoundingly easier to program for, and been undisputedly the most powerful. In fact, this was Sony's original plan, but their engineers couldn't seem to pull it off. So instead they made the Cell the CPU ("Because we said the Cells was the awesomes, guyz!") and then threw on a NVidia GPU as the GPU (which caused the case size to dramatically increase).
Sony could have had an easy to code for and powerful console, but they screwed it up majorly.
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That doesn't sound like it's that serious of a problem.
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The PS3 can succeed if it gets the games to back it, I think any other point is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by sek929
The PS3 can succeed if it gets the games to back it, I think any other point is irrelevant.
Very true. The real question is will it get games that draw people away from the 360 and the Wii? With the upcoming releases I'm not sure that will happen anytime soon, especially with Halo 3 coming out next week and the Wii being the unstoppable selling machine that it is.
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The Killer app for the Xbox has always been Halo.
Halo made me buy an Xbox, Halo 2 made me get Xbox Live (and 2/3 of 6 million according to the wired article), and Halo 3 will be the biggest thing since sliced bread
The role reversal of Playstation and XBox (hell even Nintendo) was quite startling to me. The big dog (Playstation) needs it though, it WILL force them to suceed and I look forward to the golden era of the PS3.
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Let's see what Sony has to say tomorrow.
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All glory to the hypnotoad.
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/sigh
Tokyo Game Show.
Some big Sony announcement are supposed to happen, including the rumored FF VII remake.
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No need to sigh just because I didn't know. Sheesh.
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Originally Posted by starman
That doesn't sound like it's that serious of a problem.
Doesn't sound like it's that serious of a problem? I mean, aside from that configuration being so much faster and far more able to handle 1080p than the current configuration of the PS3, it also makes porting much easier, and just programming for the PS3 in general far easier.
Not to mention it would make the case smaller and the machine cheaper.
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Originally Posted by starman
Some big Sony announcement are supposed to happen, including the rumored FF VII remake.
BTW, am I the only one that didn't *LOVE* FF VII? My friends all call it the greatest FF ever, but I think it pales in comparison to VI (released as 3 in the US on the SNES)...
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I don't think a FF VII remake will get the PS3 to start selling. There will be a small bump, but really... In regards to killer apps the PS3 is heavily outnumbered by the XBox and Wii.
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I've never even played FF VII except for a little bit when I was testing out emulation support on the PSP (and it didn't seem that great). But it seems to be the game that introduced RPGs to large population of gamers, so it has a special place for them. I wouldn't be surprised if it made a huge difference in sales, frankly.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Doesn't sound like it's that serious of a problem? I mean, aside from that configuration being so much faster and far more able to handle 1080p than the current configuration of the PS3, it also makes porting much easier, and just programming for the PS3 in general far easier.
Not to mention it would make the case smaller and the machine cheaper.
I was talking about programming. Good engineers should be able to figure out anything.
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Originally Posted by goMac
I don't think a FF VII remake will get the PS3 to start selling. There will be a small bump, but really... In regards to killer apps the PS3 is heavily outnumbered by the XBox and Wii.
Never, EVER underestimate the power of FF VII.
Ever.
And I'm not saying that as a fan. In Japan people go apeshit over it. Here it's not AS bad, but you will see a surge.
500,000 copies of FF VII: Crisis Core sold in ONE WEEK in Japan.
icruise is right that it did introduce people to RPGs, but it was a damn good story, 3D, immersive, good music, a new materia system, and the unmentionable.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Union County, NJ
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Originally Posted by jokell82
No need to sigh just because I didn't know. Sheesh.
I'm just tired of people running around this thread like they know everything, and then correcting them every other post. It's like you people don't even know what's going on in the very business you're trying to sound like you know so much about.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
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Originally Posted by icruise
The PS2 was most definitely not cheap back when people were saying things like that about it.
The PS 2 debuted at $299.
Originally Posted by starman
LAWL.
First off, the PS2 was expensive FOR ITS TIME. This isn't a PS2 coming out in 2007, it's coming out in 2000 when you can get a Dreamcast for what, $199? That's $100 LESS than the PS2 and the PS2 kicked ass AND the PS2 was a cheap DVD player for most people.
The PS 1 debuted at $299.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
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Originally Posted by starman
I'm just tired of people running around this thread like they know everything, and then correcting them every other post. It's like you people don't even know what's going on in the very business you're trying to sound like you know so much about.
There's no need to have such an attitude. Just because you read Kotaku every five minutes doesn't make you an expert on all things video games.
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All glory to the hypnotoad.
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
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Originally Posted by Eug
The PS2 debuted at $299.
The PS1 debuted at $299.
Yes I know. So?
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