[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Wow impressive, I would like one for my parents XP box, got a url?

I'd try pricewatch.com. I get all of my equipment (for both platforms) locally from computer fairs, but great deals can be found all over the web of course. By the way, each of the cards I've bought is both Mac and PC compatible, so I have Firewire cards in my old UMAX s900 Mac and my wife's old Motorolla Mac clone (now used as a storage system).

Yup, they wont power the equipment. Like say a iPod. That Gateway on the iMac commercial comes with said type of firewire.

That Crateitaway all in one POS is using mobile components. The damn thing is nothing more than left overs from some POS laptop Crateitaway had in surplus, turned into an all-in-one 'desktop'. So it uses some on-board POS 4 pin Firewire port. Ditto onboard POS graphics.

They keep trying, but the PC world should know the range of its strenghts and weaknesses, and that there is no point in being locked into some all-in-one pile of crap with a PC- therefore losing the whole advantage of easily upgradeable hardware in the x86 world.

Basically, idiot companies like Crateitaway don't understand the true appeal of an iMac. By trying to copy it, they demonstrate a lack of understanding of both what people like about Macs (ease of use, the OS, etc) as well as what people like about PCs (ooodles and oodles of hardware options, easily upgraded, etc.).

And just because you never needed as warranty on a over all system again doesn't still factor in the price.
It will come to a little over a grand.

I think maybe you missed something here. When you buy a hard drive or video card, etc. it INCLUDES a warranty, built into the cost. Why should I then pay again for another warranty from some company that slaps the parts together for me?

Are you aware, that you buy and pay for a warranty from Maxtor, or ATI or Pioneer, or Sony, or whoever builds whichever parts in the G4? When you send it back to Apple- they can replace the component because you have already paid the individual warranty on it as part of the system price. I just don't need to pay Apple or any other company a surcharge (IE: an over-all waranty)to do what I can do myself.

Eh, a comfortable non-clicky keyboard with good action is a must for me. Apple's pro keyboard is better than the average keyboard I have used at your local CompUSA store. Again, factors in cost here, doesn't matter what you do or don't need.

The only thing that matters when I buy a compn (expecially a PC) is what I need or don't need. I don't like to pay for things I don't need. That's silly to me.
I'm not saying everyone doesn't feel they need things like an overall waranty and such- hey, that's why there's Apple and that's why there's Dell or whoever on the PC side. But you have to factor in the option- weather you like it or not- that in the PC world you don't have to buy a system from an OEM.

As for keyboards, there's an infinite universe of keyboards on the PC side of the isle, and that's undeniable. You can get whatever you *NEED* and *WANT* in a PC keyboard from a seemingly endless selection. I like non-clicky with good action too- that's why I have that. I didn't need to spend a fortune for it, nor have some box-maker decide for me what keyboard I should have.

Ditto all the above for mice.

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Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:

you wasted a lot of people's time, Zimph.

more like wasting your own time.

if you want to custom configure your own PC, the prices you came up with after bargain hunting are going to beat major PC vendors as well.

apple is meant for people who have the means to a digital lifestyle and we often have to pay for better technology like better firewire, superdrive and better ethernet. Although apple offers low-budget machines for more basic users, powermacs are meant for the high end.

the value ratio is subjective to people. if you watch gateway's commercials lately (the dell one, not the apple one), you'll see that they are in a price war with Dell and focus on lower prices. The dell dude has responded with low costs too. Apple is not a part of this battle. Dell is being forcasted as the winner and gateway is forcasted as not existing in a few years. We pay a little more for the basic machines (imac, ibook) and we pay more for the Powermacs. Is it worth not using windows? Yes. Is it the best value? No. Is it prohibiting me from using Apple products? I pay more for gas, my car and my apt too. A computer is a purchase made every 2-3 yrs.

Am i apologizing for Apple? No! They should try to make their computer more value sensitive. However, as a consumer i have the choice to make my own purchasing decisions. The powermac prices are not that alarming.

[Pojo]

There is a premium for buy Mac hardware it has always been that way. Recently it became almost too much to justify, I sure hope Apple brings out something new and exciting in the next 6 months or they will really be in trouble.

Next about OSX it�s nothing special when it comes to dual. Almost every other platform but macs have had proper dual os's for many many years. OSX doesn�t make any magical use of your cpus only a few os level services take any advantage of it.

The only os that was somewhat special in that respect was BeOS. Which essentially forced you to spawn more then one thread per app. That was awesome implementation for duals. I used a BeOS dual machine and trust me nothing even today comes close to the responsiveness of that machine.

But even the blessed BeOS implementation was not without its flaws. Having all those threads introduced overhead which in some cases would slow down the task. You would never loose response in the os but the filter or whatever you were working on could take a little bit longer to complete. To me it just felt a lot faster then any dual os before or after.

BeOS put the user experience first and foremost so the machine never felt slow. This made it great for workstation/desktop use but it wasn�t a good thing for server environments where the gui response is not that important.

Bottom line is that OSX is just now catching up to the rest of the operating systems when it comes to multithreading and such...

[nana4]

Originally posted by file:
The way i see dual processors is:

Apple found a way to bring us dual processor technology.

PCs haven't adopted it for their sustomers yet.

If they did, then their customers/gamers may have monster dual 3 ghz machines...but they don't unless they make it themselves.

Apple had to go for dual CPU's, because Motorola can't ramp up the speed of the G4 sufficiently.

PCs have had dual CPUs for a long time. Ever since the day of the Pentium Pro. If you wish to pay the money you can buy a dual P4 Xeon 2.4GHz from Dell or countless others. Or build it yourself for less if you wish. 2.8GHz should be out any minute now.

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Originally posted by nana4:


Apple had to go for dual CPU's, because Motorola can't ramp up the speed of the G4 sufficiently.

PCs have had dual CPUs for a long time. Ever since the day of the Pentium Pro. If you wish to pay the money you can buy a dual P4 Xeon 2.4GHz from Dell or countless others. Or build it yourself for less if you wish. 2.8GHz should be out any minute now.

Mot couldn't ramp it up...so apple found a decent solution. I know pcs have had them for a long time but show me one of the big boy pc vendors that offer it as a desktop like apple does.

http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/produc...n_desktops.htm

http://www.dell.com/us/en/biz/produc...rkstations.htm

do i see dual processor? they obviously don't offer it as a main option. which proves my point.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by file:


Mot couldn't ramp it up...so apple found a decent solution. I know pcs have had them for a long time but show me one of the big boy pc vendors that offer it as a desktop like apple does.

http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/produc...n_desktops.htm

http://www.dell.com/us/en/biz/produc...rkstations.htm

do i see dual processor? they obviously don't offer it as a main option. which proves my point.

I have to agree with you on this.

Peecees have been available as duals for almost a decade. I have no idea why they are reserved for workstation/server roles. You'd have to look very hard to find a company that sells inexpensive 'consumer-grade' duallies. I'm sure the market is out there to exploit...seeing as how the only growing segment of PC sales is in the niche market of 'custom-built gaming rigs'.

I don't dislike Macs, it's just the opposite, in fact. I like ALL interesting hardware - regardless of its pedigree. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Microsoft doesn't need another salesman, niether does Dell. I worship no manufacturers of hardware or software. If I wanted an inexpensive high-performance machine, I'd know which components I'd put inside it. Me and Apple happen to disagree on the hardware, it's that simple.

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Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If I wanted an inexpensive high-performance machine, I'd know which components I'd put inside it. Me and Apple happen to disagree on the hardware, it's that simple.

i kind of agree with you on the hardware to an extent.

it could be more value oriented for their high-end models. But like i said before...computers for me is a purchase made every 2-3 years.

at the same time gateway and dell's price wars have reduced prices and profit margins for both companies. if apple participated...i'm sure they would end up like gateway because of the low profits.

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by file:


apple is meant for people who have the means to a digital lifestyle and we often have to pay for better technology like better firewire, superdrive and better ethernet.

and what pc user can't also pay for it? or is it the fact that pc users pay less for the exact same tech, and have the option of when and to what degree of implimintation they desire

realisticly gigabit ethernet is a waste as the equipment needed to run it ( gigabit switches and routers) are very expensive and generally are fiber based not rj45. and without it you just have an expensive 100bT card.

[file]

Originally posted by Nimisys:


and what pc user can't also pay for it? or is it the fact that pc users pay less for the exact same tech, and have the option of when and to what degree of implimintation they desire

customization dictates you can do whatever you want and however you want.

both platforms are debatebly both suitable for professional use. but when we get to the general purpose incorporation of digital equipment in a users life i think apple supports the user much more efficiently.

i think that with apple's new tools like .mac and ipod...it is especially focused on making things work easy and the incorporation and implementation to be especially easy as well.

of course PCs come with their versions of iapps and hardware but as MS and Dell and Sonicblue are 3 seperate companies they have a harder time focusing as Apple does with software, hardware and their peripherals.

It's all subjective i guess, so i respect ninisys opnion.

[nana4]

Originally posted by file:


Mot couldn't ramp it up...so apple found a decent solution. I know pcs have had them for a long time but show me one of the big boy pc vendors that offer it as a desktop like apple does.
snip

http://www.dell.com/us/en/biz/produc...rkstations.htm

do i see dual processor? they obviously don't offer it as a main option. which proves my point.

Umm, the first computer on that page is a dual processor machine:

Dell Precision Workstation 530

Intel� XeonTM processors up to 2.80GHz (Dual Capable)

You need to look a bit harder

Also what do you mean by "better firewire". Are you suggesting that the Firewire on an add-in card is in someway inferior to the built-in on a Mac?

[file]

Originally posted by nana4:

Intel� XeonTM processors up to 2.80GHz (Dual Capable)

"(dual capable)" means shipper with dual processors?

...sorry, i looked at the specs but i didn't see "Dual Xeon" and for having a dual machine...i figured they'd scream "DUAL" across the top of the configuration.

[nana4]

Originally posted by file:


"(dual capable)" means shipper with dual processors?

...sorry, i looked at the specs but i didn't see "Dual Xeon" and for having a dual machine...i figured they'd scream "DUAL" across the top of the configuration.

You can specify it with a 2nd processor (thought you will save money if you buy the second one from another vendor). They don't scream "DUAL" because the people that order such a machine aren't swayed by the bullcrap that is plastered all over Apple.com, such as "faster than light" (now removed) and gibberish about gigaflops and half implemented DDR.

[olePigeon]

Macs have had dual monitors since the original Classic. Hah! Take that!

Well... you COULD get an Apple ][ card for an LC. That's sort of a second processor, even if it was only 2MHz.

Originally posted by nana4:
PCs have had dual CPUs for a long time. Ever since the day of the Pentium Pro. If you wish to pay the money you can buy a dual P4 Xeon 2.4GHz from Dell or countless others. Or build it yourself for less if you wish. 2.8GHz should be out any minute now.

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Macs have had dual monitors since the original Classic. Hah! Take that!

you mean the ability to plug in a second video card and have the pc run them both, often helpful when you got a isa video card and a mobo with a hosed bios and your tryign to find out where it is hosed, since many times it won;t out put any signal to a pci or agp card but isa loads low enough that it will

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Pojo:
[B]There is a premium for buy Mac hardware it has always been that way. Recently it became almost too much to justify, I sure hope Apple brings out something new and exciting in the next 6 months or they will really be in trouble.

They will be? I've heard this every 6 month, and every 6 months Apple isn't in trouble. Why?

Next about OSX it�s nothing special when it comes to dual. Almost every other platform but macs have had proper dual os's for many many years. OSX doesn�t make any magical use of your cpus only a few os level services take any advantage of it.

Pentium4's don't run in SMP unless they are Xeons, I have seen that dual PCs don't show the same speed increases as a Dual G4 do.
[quote]

Bottom line is that OSX is just now catching up to the rest of the operating systems when it comes to multithreading and such...

Catching up? It has caught up, and in allot of cases surpassed.

[Zimphire]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nana4:


Apple had to go for dual CPU's, because Motorola can't ramp up the speed of the G4 sufficiently.[/awuote] Apple didn't HAVE to do anything. Apple had been planning of doing this since they started working on a OS that actually could support it.

PCs have had dual CPUs for a long time. Ever since the day of the Pentium Pro. If you wish to pay the money you can buy a dual P4 Xeon 2.4GHz from Dell or countless others. Or build it yourself for less if you wish. 2.8GHz should be out any minute now.

And as I have shown, they cost just about as much as a G4 .Xeons probably more.

[El Pre$idente]

Apple's share price continues to fall rapidly due to the stupid insistence by Mac fanatics that the low performance and high price of Macs is fine because the OS is cool. This religious devotion is why Apple keeps their prices high and why their customer base is so small.

Now Apple is trying a secondary tactic. They maintain the high price of their Macs but want to make lots of small sales from peripherals and internet services just as Microsoft has been doing for several years or is trying to do with .Net. But Apple converted a tiny minority of iTools subscribers, the $witchers they have on their site make the Mac community look like a bunch of computer illiterates who can't handle more than a single button mouse and Apple's share price continues to fall.

The fact remains that a $3000 computer with no monitor, average overall performance, no Office suite and a low end graphics card is just a poor offering. It might be able to handle everything you throw at it but it also swallows all the money you can throw at it.

[Pojo]

Zimphire your statements are full of crap. So I am challenging you to back them up or take them back. Very simple all I ask is you show me why you think that:

1. "dual PCs don't show the same speed increases as a Dual G4 do."
2. "Catching up? It has caught up, and in allot of cases surpassed." regarding proper mutlicpu implementation in os's.

This is just such ridiculous stupid nonsense I simply have to call you on it for the pure entertainment value of you trying to find this none existing information... Now scramble to it you damn ignorant zealot...

[Spliffdaddy]

awe, leave Zimph alone.

He's still recovering from the "is that an optical drive?" question.

Wait. He edited it to say it was sarcasm. Odd, it's even less funny as sarcasm.

o-p-t-i-c-a-l dwive?

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Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
Apple's share price continues to fall rapidly due to the stupid insistence by Mac fanatics that the low performance and high price of Macs is fine because the OS is cool. This religious devotion is why Apple keeps their prices high and why their customer base is so small.

i think this statement is unfair and unless you can prove to me you have experience in evaluating market trends with a graduation from an acceptable form of institutional schooling, your statements are more opinionated than factual information. Which is fine, your statement is interesting.

Now Apple is trying a secondary tactic. They maintain the high price of their Macs but want to make lots of small sales from peripherals and internet services just as Microsoft has been doing for several years or is trying to do with .Net. But Apple converted a tiny minority of iTools subscribers, the $witchers they have on their site make the Mac community look like a bunch of computer illiterates who can't handle more than a single button mouse and Apple's share price continues to fall.

This statement blankets the entite Apple computer harware line and if so...it is untrue because the imac line and ibook lines are exceptional computing values.

Thanks for insulting me as i am a switcher as well. I saw a few commercials in august and i lead me to do more research. I had limited but happy experience with Apple computers in college and junior high school earlier in my life. I don't defend the Advertising campaign of Apple but it is no more or less insulting to the viewer's intelligence than Dell or Gatewaty commericals with the kid and the cows.

i am a professional in multimedia design and i switched for various reasons. Wintel computers were my computer of choice for many years but i felt that the trade-off in speed was negligible compared to what it gained in OS as well as Mac specific features.

I had a 1.8 ghz PC and to be truthful, it ran great. It was to the point in that maybe speed would not satisfy me as much as a fine-tuned OS would. I do not game and i do mid-level video production tasks. Although i am a professional i still represent a good segment of mac users, especially creatives in the design industry.

The fact remains that a $3000 computer with no monitor, average overall performance, no Office suite and a low end graphics card is just a poor offering. It might be able to handle everything you throw at it but it also swallows all the money you can throw at it.

i agree with you in that the value could be better. but you fail to mention any of the good things about Apple either. A great OS, great industrial design and ease of use are important features to me.

The wintel world is a paradise for options and customization. for people who avoid that situation and seek a a easier and simplified computing experience, it doesn't mean we're dumb it just means we prefer not to go through the extra work involved. Even when i used a PC, i never ever customized it with the exception of an external zip drive.

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