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Scr�der wins!
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voodoo
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Sep 22, 2002, 11:10 PM
 
Although narrowly. BBC has the lowdown.

Yay! Good news for the EU. It would have become far too right winged.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Phanguye
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Sep 22, 2002, 11:11 PM
 
right... just what the world needs... more socialists

     
nana4
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Sep 22, 2002, 11:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Phanguye:
right... just what the world needs... more socialists

Well ,most of Europe has gone down a big socialist sh##hole anyway. Only real exception is the fascists in Greece, and that's hardly a good thing.
     
voodoo  (op)
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Sep 22, 2002, 11:23 PM
 
Originally posted by nana4:


Well ,most of Europe has gone down a big socialist sh##hole anyway. Only real exception is the fascists in Greece, and that's hardly a good thing.
Did you know there exists a country called Italy... Sylvio isn't exactly a communist
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
nana4
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Sep 22, 2002, 11:29 PM
 
Sorry I should change last post to "Socialist and fascist sh$$hole"
     
jean-henri
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Sep 23, 2002, 03:24 AM
 
Originally posted by nana4:
Sorry I should change last post to "Socialist and fascist sh$$hole"
Here's a list of the governments inside the EU (not all of Europe, of course):

Liberal/Conservative/Centre-Right, etc:
- Austria: Conservative People's Party
- Belgium: Liberal coalition
- Denmark: Venstre (Liberal) Party + Conservative
- France: Conservative
- Ireland: Fianna Fail + �Progressive Democrats�
- Italy: Forza Italia Coalition (incl. extreme right wing)
- Luxemburg: Christian Social party
- The Netherlands: Centre-right coalition
- Portugal: Social Democrats + Popular Party (conservative)
- Spain: Popular Party (conservative)

Social Democrats/Socialists etc.
- Greece: Pasok (Socialist ???)
- Germany: Social Democrats
- Finland: Social Democrats + Liberal coalition
- Sweden: Social Democrats
- UK: New Labour party

Hardly a "Socialist sh$$hole", I think - and the left side even includes Blair's "New Labour".
-jh
     
deekay1
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Sep 23, 2002, 03:53 AM
 
Originally posted by nana4:
Well ,most of Europe has gone down a big socialist sh##hole anyway.
that wouldn't be the same (untservative jesus nazi war for oil $hithole the us is going down right now, would it?

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El Pre$idente
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Sep 23, 2002, 04:19 AM
 
I'm just trying to get my head around 'Christian Democrat'. Is it actually possible to vote who you want the Messiah to be?

Berlusconi? Most hated man in Italy.

And get your facts right about Socialism and try reading Socialist manifesto sometime. It's democratic and left wing. Right wingers tend to be entirely highly religious and favor ultra-capitalism. Then you have people who claim to be Socialists but were just elitists who wanted to be monarchs without the titles such as Stalin, Lenin and Mao.
     
ablaze
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Sep 23, 2002, 04:28 AM
 
I come fom Germany and I am very proud that we stopped Stoiber!
Stoiber entitled some years ago authors and philosophers as larvae and worms. Moreover he pointed out the importance of protecting Germany from the "Verrassung" of our culture. That's just a bit too much right-wing for a chancellor in Germany. Moreover he is the head of the CSU that only is electable in Bavaria. The CSU presents itself as the only party on the right wing with all its extremes.
I like the politics of the red-green coalition here in Germany. We are the country with the greatest efforts concerning regenerativ energies in the world. We will have abandoned nuclear energy completely until 2020 at the latest...
We have a government that tries to accomplish the outstanding problems not just by being dictated by the industry.
And: Especially the Green party dislikes any kind of military action, as one of their biggest roots is the peace movement. So there is rational debate about military actions and the governments sees war not just as a "continuation of politics with other means"... (as I see it Bush does. Although I have probably not enough insight into the psyche of the American people.)
So I'm going to be very happy today.
     
ablaze
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Sep 23, 2002, 04:35 AM
 
Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
I'm just trying to get my head around 'Christian Democrat'. Is it actually possible to vote who you want the Messiah to be?
It come from the roots of the parties. In Germany the Christian democrats have their main root in the former "Zentrum"-party, who was the party the traditionally the bourgeois christians and some christian workers used to vite for. In contrast to the Communists and Social Democrats who for the first doesn't play a role anymore (wlthough they still exsist) and for the second until 1966 tried to bring forth marxist theory by parlamentarism (evolution) and not by a revolution.
On the other hand, there was of course in the Weimarer Republic the Nazis who weren't electable for "true" chrisitians either.

But anyway, if you look at the appearance of Edmund Stoiber, he seems to believe to be some kind of Messiah (or at least an angel)
     
ink
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Sep 23, 2002, 06:09 AM
 
Originally posted by ablaze:
We will have abandoned nuclear energy completely until 2020 at the latest...
Best of luck to you. A handy regenerative, natural energy source (wind, dammable areas, tidal generators) may be viable in Germany, but most "alternatives" use fossil fuel generators in lieu of nuclear energy (which actually pollute much more).

People are irrationally afraid of nuclear energy; sure, there are some drawbacks, but the alternatives are typically worse. If you think the FUD that gets spread about alternative energy is bad, you wouldn't belive the FUD that people hear about the atomic variety.
     
ablaze
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Sep 23, 2002, 06:53 AM
 
Originally posted by ink:

Best of luck to you. A handy regenerative, natural energy source (wind, dammable areas, tidal generators) may be viable in Germany, but most "alternatives" use fossil fuel generators in lieu of nuclear energy (which actually pollute much more).

People are irrationally afraid of nuclear energy; sure, there are some drawbacks, but the alternatives are typically worse. If you think the FUD that gets spread about alternative energy is bad, you wouldn't belive the FUD that people hear about the atomic variety.
The problem with nuclear energy is not only the high risk of another Tschernobyl (hey, a Bavarian minister wanted to protect German nuclear powerplants with missiles after 9/11!), but also the unsolved problem of the nuclear waist. This is like driving down a mountain road hoping that someone would invent the brake before the crash.

Of course, fossil fuel generators are polluting much more the air, but there is so much potential in regenerative energy, that every country must go that way. With out withdraw from nuclear energy, we enforced alternative energy's industrie, producing more than 100.000 new jobs. Moreover, industrie is forced to produce alternatives and strengthen their research, which is important for Germany as "our sole raw material grows between our ears" (H. Schmidt - former chancellor).
     
red rocket
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Sep 23, 2002, 07:10 AM
 
Considering his coalition's hypocritical stance on war and environmental issues, not to mention the lousy sense of judgement displayed recently regarding transatlantic relations, I'm disappointed that Schroeder won.

Granted, Stoiber may not have been much better, but he could hardly have been any worse. Germany could have done with a change and now she's stuck with the same sleazeballs for another four years, and possibly looking at political isolation, as well.
     
Mastrap
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Sep 23, 2002, 07:30 AM
 
Originally posted by red rocket:
Considering his coalition's hypocritical stance on war and environmental issues,
Elaborate?

I fail to see the hypocracy you're mentioning?
     
voodoo  (op)
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Sep 23, 2002, 07:34 AM
 
Originally posted by red rocket:
Considering his coalition's hypocritical stance on war and environmental issues, not to mention the lousy sense of judgement displayed recently regarding transatlantic relations, I'm disappointed that Schroeder won.

Granted, Stoiber may not have been much better, but he could hardly have been any worse. Germany could have done with a change and now she's stuck with the same sleazeballs for another four years, and possibly looking at political isolation, as well.
And I am real sorry Bush Jr. won in the US. He has a hypocritical stance on war and environmental issues, not to mention the lousy sense of judgement displayed recently regarding transatlantic relations.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
ThisGuy
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Sep 23, 2002, 08:37 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Scr�der wins!
...and will now spend a great deal of time over the next year apologizing to Bush and distancing himself from Herta Da�bler-Gmelin.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 23, 2002, 08:38 AM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
And I am real sorry Bush Jr. won in the US. He has a hypocritical stance on war and environmental issues, not to mention the lousy sense of judgement displayed recently regarding transatlantic relations.
LOL! I do believe that Red Rocket is British. The fact that you would take his comments and turn them around by attacking the US President is pretty comical.

Knee ------> Jerk.

Besides, aren't you from Iceland? What's your stake in the G E R M A N elections?
     
Montanan
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Sep 23, 2002, 08:53 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Besides, aren't you from Iceland? What's your stake in the G E R M A N elections?
Yeah, we all know that you've never been so audacious as to express your opinion of another nation's political leaders, Simey.
     
voodoo  (op)
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Sep 23, 2002, 08:55 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
LOL! I do believe that Red Rocket is British. The fact that you would take his comments and turn them around by attacking the US President is pretty comical.

Knee ------> Jerk.

Besides, aren't you from Iceland? What's your stake in the G E R M A N elections?
You're a funny guy Simey. Deep down.

I used Red Rocket's response and turned it on Bush. I think the original post Red Rocket made was a naive comment, thinking the claim he made could wouldn't apply to so manyh other politicians. And to Bush Jr, especially - because he became president on very close margins if memory servers.

It didn't concern me if Red Rocker was American (he could have voted Gore, you know... more than 50% did so the odds would be against him being a Bushist anyway) or if he was German. Wouldn't strike me as unlikely, since we are talking about the G E R M A N elections.

Speaking of which, if you would know anything about the EU Simey, you would know why the German elections would concern me. I am very concerned about the future of the EU, hence my intrest.

(and of course, while kneejerk respenses are my speciality you make pretty good ones too everytime someone disses Bush Jr)
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 23, 2002, 09:04 AM
 
Originally posted by Montanan:

Yeah, we all know that you've never been so audacious as to express your opinion of another nation's political leaders, Simey.
True, but only regarding foreign policy. That's a particular interest of mine and obviously affects my country.

But as far as domestic policy in democratic countries I don't generally care all that much. Not even with regard to Britain, despite the fact that I grew up there and have close family and friends there (my father, brother, aunts, uncles and cousins, as well as schoolfriends).

I also don't care that much about domestic policy in Germany. I did live there for three years and was very happy there. But outside of foreign policy I don't really have any stake in their leaders. Basically, it's their election, their choice.
     
derbs
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Sep 23, 2002, 09:07 AM
 
Originally posted by ablaze:
Moreover he pointed out the importance of protecting Germany from the "Verrassung" of our culture.
could you translate "Verrassung" please?
     
ablaze
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Sep 23, 2002, 10:12 AM
 
Originally posted by derbs:


could you translate "Verrassung" please?
Okay, I don't know the English expression for this. I don't know if there is an English equivalent to this, anyway. But I'll try:

It means in other words that people from other cultures influence your culture so that your culture gets loses the pure influence of your "race" (probably better: people).
It's that sort of real bad word creations we all know from nazi Germany (you see how hard it is: I don't want to compare Stoiber to Nazi leaders in any way. That's nearly exact the same situation in that D�ubler-Gmelin has been. Someone could just now claim that I compared Stoiber to nazi leaders.)

btw: D�ubler-Gmelin just said, that bringing up foreign affairs' issues to divert from inner problems - espacially before elections is a common practice since "Adolf Nazi" and that we know many examples of this practice in Germany since 1949 as well. In a way Schr�der did the same before this year's elections, didn't he? (That does not mean, that I want to compare Schr�der to nazi leaders. You see how hard it is to get it right? I think you should better avoid saying anything about nazi Germany and compare it with today as you could with election propaganda for example. This is no comparison of any living person with nazi leaders.)
     
ablaze
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Sep 23, 2002, 10:21 AM
 
Originally posted by red rocket:
Considering his coalition's hypocritical stance on war and environmental issues, not to mention the lousy sense of judgement displayed recently regarding transatlantic relations, I'm disappointed that Schroeder won.

Granted, Stoiber may not have been much better, but he could hardly have been any worse. Germany could have done with a change and now she's stuck with the same sleazeballs for another four years, and possibly looking at political isolation, as well.
Political isolation? I think you underestimate German-American relations...
Considering war and environmental issues: You should avoid "hypocritical" because of its negative connotation, but in fact their point of view comes out of two main roots of the Green party and the Social Democrats: peace movement and environmental movement. This is in fact not the easiest way, but it's worth it.
     
D'Espice
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Sep 23, 2002, 10:31 AM
 
Schr�der... this guy and his incompetent green suckups are going to ruin this beautiful country.
I tell you, four more years and Germany is going down the drain.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one
pretty and well preserved piece, but to skid across the line broadside,
thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, shouting GERONIMO!"
     
deekay1
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Sep 23, 2002, 02:00 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
And I am real sorry Bush Jr. won in the US...
same here. vote him out of office and transatlantic relationships will be as good as ever.

btw, is there a democratic candidate for 2004 on the hirozon yet?

hedonist, anarchist, agnostic, mac enthusiast and a strong believer in evolution and the yellow m&m conspiracy
     
ink
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Sep 23, 2002, 02:01 PM
 
Originally posted by ablaze:
The problem with nuclear energy is not only the high risk of another Tschernobyl (hey, a Bavarian minister wanted to protect German nuclear powerplants with missiles after 9/11!)
Many orders of magnitude fewer died from the Chrynobyl accident than have died from other energy sources. Look at how many Chinese have died making the Yellow River dam over the past 10 years. It's just that the Prometheus of atomic energy resulted in tens of thousands of deaths; an unpopular unveiling of a new science. Also, the engineers on the Cherynobyl plant did some very unethical things to cause the criticality.
but also the unsolved problem of the nuclear waist. This is like driving down a mountain road hoping that someone would invent the brake before the crash.
Well, since nobody does research in nuclear technology (it's a bad political manuever).... There are many methods to reuse and reduce the halflife of nuclear waste. This aside, if you fill the Yankee stadium with coal to the brim you'll get as much energy as you would from half a credit-card-sized chunk of uranium. The coal waste is spewed into the atmosphere, and has just as much radiation spread out over the congregate as the uranium does. The uranium's waste, on the other hand, is in extremely small, manageble units. Hell, the sun spews MUCH more radiation than any other single source (skin cancer, anyone?) including nuclear power.
Of course, fossil fuel generators are polluting much more the air, but there is so much potential in regenerative energy, that every country must go that way. With out withdraw from nuclear energy, we enforced alternative energy's industrie, producing more than 100.000 new jobs. Moreover, industrie is forced to produce alternatives and strengthen their research, which is important for Germany as "our sole raw material grows between our ears" (H. Schmidt - former chancellor).
I'm all for renewable energy, but I shake my head when people replace nuclear power with coal-fire and (to a lesser extent) natural-gas plants. As I said, the best of luck; I'll be paying close attention and I hope you are successful.
     
BRussell
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Sep 23, 2002, 02:58 PM
 
So I guess Bush-bashing does win elections in Germany.

In the US, I live in a state where a Democrat is running ads with Bush in it saying positive things about him. Drives me fucking crazy.
     
Developer
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Sep 23, 2002, 03:11 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
So I guess Bush-bashing does win elections in Germany.
I think D�ubler-Gmelin did cost the SPD a lot of votes.
Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
     
BRussell
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Sep 23, 2002, 03:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
I think D�ubler-Gmelin did cost the SPD a lot of votes.
So do you think the anti-American rhetoric gained them or lost them votes? My understanding was that Schroder was far behind, but outspoken opposition to Bush policies gained him votes.

His minister saying "Hitler" and "Bush" in the same sentence may have been going too far for some, but didn't anti-Bush statements overall help more than hurt?

Or wasn't it a very big issue in the election?
     
Developer
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Sep 23, 2002, 04:17 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
So do you think the anti-American rhetoric gained them or lost them votes? My understanding was that Schroder was far behind, but outspoken opposition to Bush policies gained him votes.

His minister saying "Hitler" and "Bush" in the same sentence may have been going too far for some, but didn't anti-Bush statements overall help more than hurt?

Or wasn't it a very big issue in the election?
It was a big issue.

I would say Schr�der clearly stating that no german tropps will be sent to Iraq gained him a lot of popularity. You could clearly see it in the polls. I wouldn't say that statement was anti-american (though it probably appealed the latent anti-americanism).

D�ubler-Gmelin comparing Bush with Hitler was clearly too far, and I think the reason the SPD was significantly behind the polls from before the interview. That clearly sounded like an anti-american statement. And if she really didn't say Hitler but "Adolf Nazi" it sounds like the dumbest kind of it. I have never heard that term. It sounds like a child would have said that. On a later press conference when she was asked what she meant when she said, we know that from our history with Hitler, she answered "I don't really know."

That cost him probably as much votes as he gained. What helped him, was the flood and the fact that Stoiber is Bavarian and therefore not acceptable as chancellor for the whole Germany.

But it was really decided by the small parties this time. First the green party with the very popular foreign minister Fischer and their progressive reform politics, and second the anti-semitic paper by M�llemann, that abolished the chances of the FDP.
Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
     
voodoo  (op)
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Sep 23, 2002, 05:24 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:

In the US, I live in a state where a Democrat is running ads with Bush in it saying positive things about him. Drives me fucking crazy.
Yeww. That is in poor taste. Democrats and Republicans in the same commercial?!

I don't get it
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
BRussell
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Sep 23, 2002, 06:00 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
Yeww. That is in poor taste. Democrats and Republicans in the same commercial?!

I don't get it
Yeah, it's pretty unusual. It's a heavily Republican state, and he needs Republican votes to win - simple as that. The Republican National Committee has targeted him, and has been running ads linking him to Hillary Clinton.

I don't think he could get away with it if Bush was running for re-election this year.
     
ablaze
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Sep 24, 2002, 05:53 AM
 
Originally posted by deekay1:


same here. vote him out of office and transatlantic relationships will be as good as ever.
I second that. The only reaction of Bush to German elections was "Those who are not on our side, are on the side of our enemy!". It sound like Star Wars in a way, or better Masters of the Univers. Does Bush really think the world is that black and white? That reminds me of the Hallstein doctrine in Germany. Hallstein (German state secretary in the 1950s) said that Germany would not maintain any diplomatic relations with any state that recognized the DDR as a sovereign state. That meant that all 3rd world states would not get any development aid if they recognized the DDR as a sovereign state� That is not politics of the 21st century! Welcome back to the Middle Ages.
     
Zimphire
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Sep 24, 2002, 08:49 AM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
So I guess Bush-bashing does win elections in Germany.

In the US, I live in a state where a Democrat is running ads with Bush in it saying positive things about him. Drives me fucking crazy.
     
red rocket
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Sep 24, 2002, 09:22 AM
 
Incidentally, I'm a British expat living in Germany. And no, I don't think that much of Bush, either. Nor Blair. As for the suggestion that I would've voted for Gore, that's probably true. I wouldn't have enjoyed voting for the faceless twit but I'd have done it anyway just to keep Bush out of office. Similarly with the German elections: I do think that Schroeder and Fischer are running down the country, and a change would have been beneficial. Reversely, I would have hated voting the fdp into government, as I think they're social fascists.
Of course, they didn't send me a ballot, more's the pity.
     
   
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