Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Applications > Extensive, real-world test of Keynote...

Extensive, real-world test of Keynote...
Thread Tools
gregpins
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 12:15 PM
 
I have an important presentation on Monday and had hoped to make it using Keynote (I ordered it the day of the...keynote...and received the next day).

I had such high hopes, because PPT does not run well on my TiBook 550, and it's embarrassing to have to continually ask a Windows-equipped colleague to run the show or boot into OS 9 and run PPT 2001.

Alas, after trying to build my presentation in Keynote for the last few days, I've given up. While Keynote does have some terrific attributes, namely wonderful transitions and terrific looking display, I'll be booting into OS 9 and running PPT 2001 tomorrow. Why?

PPT runs beautifully in OS 9 (but not Classic). Keynote chokes on embedded video the same way PPT X does. It stutters in slide show the same way PPT X does. Advancing slides is still not instantaneous, though better than PPT.

Apple's support notes indicate that Keynote "runs best", i.e. runs at all, with 32 mb of VRAM, eliminating a large portion of the installed PowerBook base, including my 1 year old TiBook 550. Enfuriating.

So much for people blaming Microsoft for problems with PPT X performance. Apple's own brand-new presentation software has basically the same problem, which means it is still -- at 10.2.3 -- an OS X problem of poor performance. Wonder when OS X will actually get back to the "snappy-ness" of OS 9? 10.3? 10.5? Who knows.

There HAS to be a solution to this that does not include me spending another $3,000.

Even if Keynote could handle embedded video, there are still some real problems. Keynote's handling of text content is very poor. There is no real outline schema of promotion of and demotion of points. It just indents. No existing master slide that changes the bullet and decreases text size and leading automatically. You could build it manually, but with difficulty. It's a real problem. PPT is much more mature, and it shows.

If you have a very new, very fast (I'm guessing 867 or higher) PowerBook, buy Keynote. But build your presentations in PPT and import them to take advantage of Keynote's cool animations and transitions and great drop shadows. Otherwise, save your money.

If Keynote is to be a big part of an Apple office suite (which I have high hopes for), it is badly in need of improvement. It may be good enough for Steve Jobs running simplistic presentations off dual processor towers, but it isn't good enough for a new business presentation for a medium ad agency -- the bread and butter of Apple's dwindling group of enterprise customers.

Very high hopes dashed for now.

Just my two cents.
     
tikki
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Evansville, IN
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 06:13 PM
 
I think Keynote runs great on my iBook, and I only have 8mb VRAM.

Speed is just different for different people I guess.

work: maczealots blog: carpeaqua
     
gregpins  (op)
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 07:31 PM
 
Originally posted by tikki:
I think Keynote runs great on my iBook, and I only have 8mb VRAM.

Speed is just different for different people I guess.
Agreed. If you do basic slides and graphics, it runs ok. If you embed video and do animations, it chokes.
     
Producer
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 07:38 PM
 
it's also a 1.0 that's been out for a week compared to an app that is much more mature (how old is pp anyway?) Apple's apps should also advance at a much faster rate because they have a newer code base...probably much less code and less bloat....
     
Gul Banana
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 10:28 PM
 
The graphics card really is very important to Keynote for some reason. It runs fine with embedded movies and complex animations on my G4/400... because I've got a Radeon 8500 in there. Unfortunately, upgrading the graphics subsystem of a laptop is pretty much out of the question, so yeah, if you're running it on a laptop it had better be a newer one. My iBook 800 is fine (it has the recommended 32 MB of VRAM, after all) but anything with lower specs than that experiences the problems you are talking about. At least it's not SLOWER than Powerpoint on the same operating system
[vash:~] banana% killall killall
Terminated
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 11:09 PM
 
PPT runs beautifully in OS 9 (but not Classic). Keynote chokes on embedded video the same way PPT X does. It stutters in slide show the same way PPT X does. Advancing slides is still not instantaneous, though better than PPT.

Apple's support notes indicate that Keynote "runs best", i.e. runs at all, with 32 mb of VRAM, eliminating a large portion of the installed PowerBook base, including my 1 year old TiBook 550. Enfuriating.

So much for people blaming Microsoft for problems with PPT X performance. Apple's own brand-new presentation software has basically the same problem, which means it is still -- at 10.2.3 -- an OS X problem of poor performance. Wonder when OS X will actually get back to the "snappy-ness" of OS 9? 10.3? 10.5? Who knows.
Like I posted in the other thread, MPEG-2 video is silky smooth in PPT X (TiBook GHz Radeon 9000 64 MB), but not Keynote. MPEG-2 video is useless in Keynote. ie. While OS X does slow things down, Keynote is the main culprit here. It just so happens that unfortunately, with OS X your 550 MHz is also a problem in PPT.

The ironic thing is Keynote supports drag and drop of .mpg into slides, but PPT does not. With PPT you have to manually import the video. But at least it works.

But I've never used video in any of my presentations, so it's moot... for me for the time being anyway.
     
sushiism
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 11:43 PM
 
just tried it, played my imported movies flawlessly
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2003, 11:43 PM
 
Originally posted by sushiism:
just tried it, played my imported movies flawlessly
What type of movies?
     
symonsl
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 01:03 AM
 
PPT runs beautifully in OS 9 (but not Classic). Keynote chokes on embedded video the same way PPT X does. It stutters in slide show the same way PPT X does.
As a point of clarification: were you using video mirroring? 1000s of colors?
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 01:31 AM
 
Originally posted by symonsl:
As a point of clarification: were you using video mirroring? 1000s of colors?
Millions of colours. I did not try mirroring yet.
     
clarkgoble
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Provo, UT
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 02:45 AM
 
Interesting. I've been playing around with it a bit, deciding if it is worth buying. (At this stage I'm leaning against it since I already have Office) One thing I noticed is that if I drag any large video file - whether Quicktime or MPEG - it will kill Keynote entirely.

Admittedly that's not too fair a test. And it consisted of dragging and dropping trailers from Apple (The XMen and Kill Bill trailers) as well as some short South Park clips.

Still, that does seem surprising.
     
Gee4orce
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Staffs, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 05:08 AM
 
An important consideration is wheter or not the external VGA output on the laptop has the full benefit of graphics acceleration. I know this is feature that is highlighted on the new laptops, so that implies that its possibly something that was missing on the old ones ? Therefore, you might have much better performance with video mirroring...

...just a guess.

An alternative - export your whole presentation as a Quicktime move ??
     
clarkgoble
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Provo, UT
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 06:47 AM
 
The video files I tried were all between 8 meg and 15 meg. Not that big considering the nature of video. I think this actually is a bug in Keynote. Its not that big a deal to me since I don't typically use video. However it is something people ought to keep in mind.

My system is a dual 867, so I have the most recent hardware.

Further Keynote doesn't just act flakey. It completely crashes and is removed from the dock. Not even a warning pops up.

People ought to mention this to Apple's feedback. (You know how it goes, the more feedback the more likely they are to pay attention)
     
JLL
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 08:16 AM
 
Originally posted by Gee4orce:
An important consideration is wheter or not the external VGA output on the laptop has the full benefit of graphics acceleration. I know this is feature that is highlighted on the new laptops, so that implies that its possibly something that was missing on the old ones ? Therefore, you might have much better performance with video mirroring...

...just a guess.

An alternative - export your whole presentation as a Quicktime move ??
If you have 16 MB VRAM and connect an external display, Quartz Extreme will be disabled.
JLL

- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
     
gregpins  (op)
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 12:43 PM
 
Originally posted by symonsl:
As a point of clarification: were you using video mirroring? 1000s of colors?
No external monitor connected. 1000s of colors.
     
gregpins  (op)
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 03:19 PM
 
Originally posted by clarkgoble:
The video files I tried were all between 8 meg and 15 meg. Not that big considering the nature of video. I think this actually is a bug in Keynote. Its not that big a deal to me since I don't typically use video. However it is something people ought to keep in mind.

My system is a dual 867, so I have the most recent hardware.

Further Keynote doesn't just act flakey. It completely crashes and is removed from the dock. Not even a warning pops up.

People ought to mention this to Apple's feedback. (You know how it goes, the more feedback the more likely they are to pay attention)
I have sent detailed feedback to Apple. Crazy that I can play 4 movies at once flawlessly using Quicktime Player and can't run run one in PPT or Keynote.
     
[APi]TheMan
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chico, CA and Carlsbad, CA.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 13, 2003, 03:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Gul Banana:
The graphics card really is very important to Keynote for some reason.
Because Keynote is hardware accelerated.
"In Nomine Patris, Et Fili, Et Spiritus Sancti"

     
alxalxnet
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 16, 2003, 04:42 AM
 
I have exactly the same problem with my Titanium 400 Mhz, but here's how I sorted it out.

I now create all my presentations in KeyNote, and I export everything in Quicktime. Keynote gives you the option to export the file as "Quicktime Interactive Slideshow", instead of a simple Quicktime movie.

That means that once you launch the exported file in Quicktime, you don't need to pause/play the movie. You can use the arrow keys to move back and forth through transitions and builds exactly as you would do through a Keynote slideshow.
     
Talleyman
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Denver
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 17, 2003, 08:20 PM
 
I just placed a training movie for Final Cut Express from apple's web site, and expanded it to take up 90% of the slide and it played flawlessly.

Sorry you are having problems.

400mhz AGP PowerMac. with Radeon 8500

JT
========================================
http://www.sledgetech.com

PowerMac G4 800/Powerbook G4 Aluminum, 1.25ghz

It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it......Steven Wright
     
Pepi Picklefoot
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 17, 2003, 08:31 PM
 
Flawless video playback here also.
     
nforcer
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 18, 2003, 01:30 PM
 
Originally posted by gregpins:
PPT runs beautifully in OS 9 (but not Classic). Keynote chokes on embedded video the same way PPT X does. It stutters in slide show the same way PPT X does. Advancing slides is still not instantaneous, though better than PPT.
Apple's latest apps have some serious performance problems, and I think that's clear to everyone who tries to do some really extensive stuff with them. (Fine for simple stuff, and even a few complex things... dog slow with many things. Is part of the problem with the hardware? I would hope not!)

But anyway, by any chance are you using Quicktime 6.1 and if not, does upgrading to it help performance at all?
     
jwblase
Senior User
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The workshop of the TARDIS...
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 18, 2003, 03:06 PM
 
From what I understood, many of Keynote's problems stemmed from the fact that the application is graphics-hardware accelerated, and there's a bug in certain ATI graphics drivers that causes many of Keynote's problems.

Have you updated the system to 10.2.4? Does this solve the problems? I believe that 10.2.4 had updated graphics drivers, but I could be wrong.

Sorry your presentation didn't work out, but it's good that Keynote get the wrinkles ironed out.

BTW: Of course PPT is more mature, however, PPT had many of the same problems when it first came out. It had it's growing pains, and now so does Keynote.

JB
---------------------------
"Time will tell. It always does."
-The Doctor
     
slider
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: No frelling idea
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Feb 18, 2003, 03:35 PM
 
Apple Office suite beyond AppleWorks. I don't think so. Although I would like to see what Apple could build with it, Apple needs M$ Office, and can't risk taking away even more users thereby eliminating M$ profit incentive. Even further off topic, that whole monoply settlement should have been to open up its office code. Then an Apple Office, but, it's moot.
     
KeynoteHQ
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 14, 2003, 02:59 PM
 
The tip about upgrading to 10.2.4 is a good suggestion. The upgrade has solved issues for a number of Keynote users, including the VRAM problem on iBooks.
     
beb
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Kill Devil Hills, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2003, 01:34 PM
 
I don't use Powerpoint or Keynote. I build presentations using iDVD. I can have Photoshop-built slide frames with Soundstudio edited sounds and then have a button for video and make changes all the way up to burning the disc the hour before the presentation.
     
STH
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2003, 07:17 PM
 
I just tested some formats...

Sorenson (Finding Nemo Trailer) - no problem, even with scaling + rotating

DivX (ffmpeg DVD rip, 3ivx playback codec) - same as above

MPEG2 (DVD rip, Quicktime MPEG2 Decoder) - stuttering really bad!!

MPEG1 (from various encoders) - stuttering, but not as bad as MPEG2



Could this be MPEG related?

I need to present a lot of MPEG movies...so this is kind of bad. But then again - QT fullscreen can finally stop/pause so that's better anyway...

     
alxalxnet
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2003, 10:18 PM
 
SHT, What's your computer's configuration?



Originally posted by STH:
I just tested some formats...

Sorenson (Finding Nemo Trailer) - no problem, even with scaling + rotating

DivX (ffmpeg DVD rip, 3ivx playback codec) - same as above

MPEG2 (DVD rip, Quicktime MPEG2 Decoder) - stuttering really bad!!

MPEG1 (from various encoders) - stuttering, but not as bad as MPEG2



Could this be MPEG related?

I need to present a lot of MPEG movies...so this is kind of bad. But then again - QT fullscreen can finally stop/pause so that's better anyway...

     
STH
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2003, 01:51 PM
 
TiBook 867 w/ Radeon9000 32MB

More than enough for some quirky MPEGs...
     
mousemd
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Dec 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 17, 2003, 04:00 PM
 
I have to agree with the original poster in some regards...

I have used both Keynote and Powerpoint, and while I do like keynote's themes, I don't like the way it handles text. I am forced to manually adjust font sizes so that the text can fit. At least Powerpoint automatically adjusted for this.

We'll see if it can handle my next presentation due in the next 2 weeks. I haven't used the video option, but certainly it's handling of text could've been much better.
     
alxalxnet
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 18, 2003, 05:40 PM
 
Could you please explain the process in detail? I'm really interested.

Originally posted by beb:
I don't use Powerpoint or Keynote. I build presentations using iDVD. I can have Photoshop-built slide frames with Soundstudio edited sounds and then have a button for video and make changes all the way up to burning the disc the hour before the presentation.
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:00 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,