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booboo · Jul 19, 2002, 06:30 AM

As an upgrade to 10.1, Jaguar at $129 is too expensive...?

edit: Please note, this poll is not about how much Jaguar should retail for: it's about how much it should be available for to current 10.x owners...

[ 07-19-2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: booboo ]

sniffer · Jul 19, 2002, 06:46 AM

Sad that the coupons are to no use. Wonder why they gave us those in the first place?
I think it could have been some kind of discount for those who bought 10.1 at least. Not everyone bought a copy of 10.1 or a new mac right after 10.1 was shipped. It has been shipped during the whole year. :/

asxless · Jul 19, 2002, 09:29 AM

It is not the money. It is the principle.

Apple has simply made a Customer Relations 101 level pricing blunder that has damaged their relationship with their most loyal and valuable customers -- the early adopters. The OS X early adopters should get SOME price break, even if it is only psychological. For example, Apple could have told current OS X users that they could upgrade to OS X for $99 instead of the $129 full list price. But they would have to get it directly from Apple, etc. Or Apple could have bundled .net for 6 months for 'upgraders'. There were lots of opportunities for a win/win, Apple just didn't do it.

Unless the Apple Store is grossly inefficient, Apple would make as much off a $99 'upgrade' as it will make off most sales of 10.2. Because anyone who actually pays the full list price of $129 for 10.2 just has to be 'the 1st on their block' or doesn't understand how retailing/discounting works. You can bet that MacZone, MacConnection, MacMall (and probably a local retailer/discounter near you) are putting together the advertising campaign to sell 10.2 for $99 as we post. A little patience can save you $30+.

BTW I paid $99 for OS X 10.0 from a mail order outfit; it was delivered to my door and and I installed it on the day of the commercial release. FWIW I won't be paying to upgrade OS X until I've had a chance to use it (at an Apple Store) on a TiBook to confirm that key Finder bugs, MIA energy saver features, etc. have been fixed/included in the final release.

asxless in iLand

[ 07-19-2002, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: asxless ]

cutterjohn · Jul 19, 2002, 09:41 AM

yep. As far as I am concerned 10.0 SHOULD have been at the 10.2 level.

As for sherlock3, ichat, etc. ad nauseum: I could care less about these things, and they're damn well not worth $129 to me.

All I wanted was OS9 feature parity, optimized/accelerated Aqua/GUI, general system optimizations that should have long since been done, and now appear to have been done in 10.2 plus a decent finder. (Hasn't been very stable for me in 10.1.5, alot of quirkiness and crash/restarts, fortunately not taking down the entire machine with it.)

I don't use chat programs, I don't use sherlock, I don't care about a calendar application, I don't use iphoto, imovie, etc. etc. Let the gumbies who use/care about this extra bloat pay for it. I really think that Apple should offer a stripped down OSX without all the extra bloat apps, making them $30 apiece addons with the stripped down OS at something reasonable like $50, but ONLY if they include a nice printed/BIG/useful/comprehensive(mostly) manual like SuSE.

CreamyAcorn · Jul 19, 2002, 10:00 AM

What a load of crap, honestly.

Okay, I agree that users who bought 10.0 had every reason to get an upgrade discount on 10.1.

But I, unlike a certain amount of vocal users, didn't buy PB, or 10.0, because I did my research, browsed these forums, so I KNEW that neither of the aforementioned releases were of any value to me.

Then, 10.1 came out, looked promising, I browsed these forums and read some articles, played with it in the store, and finally came to the conclusion that it was for me. So i plunked down the CN$200 for it. I'm happy, it was a great release, no complaints.

So here comes the next upgrade. I avoided all of the "How much will Jag cost?" type threads, because in my mind, since I had boughten 10.1 at full price, I simply assumed that I would get 10.2 at an upgrade price, just how previous users had gotten it. But no, looks like apple wants to screw over those who paid full price on 10.1 as well.

edddeduck · Jul 19, 2002, 10:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cutterjohn:
yep. As far as I am concerned 10.0 SHOULD have been at the 10.2 level.

As for sherlock3, ichat, etc. ad nauseum: I could care less about these things, and they're damn well not worth $129 to me.

All I wanted was OS9 feature parity, optimized/accelerated Aqua/GUI, general system optimizations that should have long since been done, and now appear to have been done in 10.2 plus a decent finder. (Hasn't been very stable for me in 10.1.5, alot of quirkiness and crash/restarts, fortunately not taking down the entire machine with it.)

I don't use chat programs, I don't use sherlock, I don't care about a calendar application, I don't use iphoto, imovie, etc. etc. Let the gumbies who use/care about this extra bloat pay for it. I really think that Apple should offer a stripped down OSX without all the extra bloat apps, making them $30 apiece addons with the stripped down OS at something reasonable like $50, but ONLY if they include a nice printed/BIG/useful/comprehensive(mostly) manual like SuSE.<hr /></blockquote>10.2 has arrived so fast because of 10.0 not in spite of it.

10.2 would not even be 50% ready if it had not had all the feedback from all those machines for 10.1 and 10.0.

I would have been great but it is not feasible to release an operating system so complex and perfect in one go anymore in

1982 Ok
1996 maybe
2002 Not possible

OSes are very complicated things and they take time to get right. From the feature list (NOT "i" apps) it is a lot more that a update so Apple has decided to charge for it, you get it free with new mac's anyway so I feel the arguements for and against are good but I am willing to play because I think it is worth it.

If Apple didn't want to lose the X (ten thing) then they could have called this release X 11 ;-) It's that good and revolutionary.

Oh and for $129 they should bundle missing manual with it.

Cheers Edwin

benh57 · Jul 19, 2002, 11:16 AM

Well said Edwin. I can't believe all these whiny ****s who keep saying "10.2 is just a bugfix, it should be free". Uh.. are you going to say that for every OSX release? 10.1 is great. There is NO WAY apple could have programmed the feature-set of 10.2 and had it ready 2 years ago.

You people have no clue how much work this stuff is.

dwishbone · Jul 19, 2002, 11:19 AM

10.0 came with my iBook so I can't complain about buying it twice. Apple released a free update, 10.1, which I got at the local CompUSA. It was leaps and bounds over the performance of 10.0 and I imagine that Jaguar will be an even bigger jump than the difference between 10.0 and 10.1. I would be pissed if I bought 10.1 outright. look at the alternative people. you gripe and complain. if this was M$ you would have had to BUY 10.1 for $100-200...they wouldnt have gave it away. 10.1 was a complete rebuild of OS X...it wasnt an update. it was a FREE OS. If you knew how you could go to a local CompUSA and hack the disk and get MacOS X for free!
I am more upset about .MAC than Jaguar. I do feel however that if you shell out cash for Jag then you should get .Mac for free for a year. And for the 10.1 whiners I do hope Apple has an uprade program for you.

MacGorilla · Jul 19, 2002, 11:24 AM

I think there should be an upgrade price. I will still buy it because of all the cool technology included.

Talleyman · Jul 19, 2002, 11:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by benh57:
Well said Edwin. I can't believe all these whiny ****s who keep saying "10.2 is just a bugfix, it should be free". Uh.. are you going to say that for every OSX release? 10.1 is great. There is NO WAY apple could have programmed the feature-set of 10.2 and had it ready 2 years ago.

You people have no clue how much work this stuff is.<hr /></blockquote>Well, since the Apple employees are donating their time (not unlike the complainers here), I agree! 10.2 and everything Apple ever offers should be free, or better yet programmed to my specifications (read: "stripped down").

Apple makes money, a lot of money, and so do you! You are in the richest 10% in the world and you're whining about paying for a luxury product! So, take that $129 and donate it to the World Relief Fund, or the Kenyan Childrens Foundation, or a local homeless shelter. Better yet, stop futzing on the computer and donate your TIME to the local Homeless shelter...go clean the pens at the animal shelter.

Bottom line: We live in a Democracy built on business! We like computers...no, we like expensive computers! So, the company that makes these luxury items is wanting more money for the newest technology. Pay it or don't. But please be rational, reasoning and fair.

JT

rgbrock1 · Jul 19, 2002, 11:54 AM

I don't think it's too much considering the development time involved for Apple.
I'll gladly hand over my $130 when it's available in August.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by booboo:
As an upgrade to 10.1, Jaguar at $129 is too expensive...?<hr /></blockquote>

Xeo · Jul 19, 2002, 12:12 PM

I agree with asxless. Just something to show early adopters that it was worth out time. Honestly, I do think it's time to pay again. I wouldn't mind paying full price because I believe it'll be worth it. However, if Apple has offered something, some kind of a break, it would make Apple look good. After hearing the responses to the keynote, they need that right about now.

Griggsy · Jul 19, 2002, 12:14 PM

it's a point upgrade not a full version number, therefore charge an upgrade price not a full version price, seems logical. If this goes through what happens at 10.3 another �100 , not bleedin likely matey

C.J. Moof · Jul 19, 2002, 12:20 PM

If they're gonna give me $129 worth of improved computing experience, I'm there. What does that mean?

1) Never have me see the complaints in my .sig again.
2) Impress me with speed improvements
3) Make the beachball a rare visitor
4) I really wish my Cube could print.
5) Impress me with a magically synching Palm, Bluetooth phone and iPod Trio.

From here, I can make a long list of things I'd like to see. Rendezvous has potential. Transparent SMB networking isn't a luxury, it's necessary.

iChat? Call me when it covers multiple networks, like Fire. My IM buddies are mostly on ICQ. When the top of their list of reasons to get Jag-Wire is an IM client, I'm really worried....
iCal? I'll probably still use Now Up to Date + Contact.

seb2 · Jul 19, 2002, 12:44 PM

what really upsets me is that it's over �160 here, more than $30 more than what you pay in the us.

ok, there are education prices -- i'm a student -- $69 versus �114, difference of $45... what the...?

if the prices here were at least the same, i wouldn't as much feel like a milk cow.

Appleman · Jul 19, 2002, 01:08 PM

Couldn't agree more with you seb2, we really pay far more than US-citizins, for soft and hardware.

Payed E 42,- instead of $30,- for QuickTimePro.

iPod Apple Store USA: $299,- $399,- $499,-
iPod Apple Store Europe: E399,- E499,- E649,- !!!!!!!

Just to remind you: the dollar and euro are more or less equal.

Why?

[ 07-19-2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Appleman ]

booboo · Jul 19, 2002, 01:17 PM

Here is the dumbest argument: we "should have waited for 10.2 before buying into OS X..."

Who gained from the early adopters? Who gained from the bug reports? Who gained from the momentum built up by those of us posting our feedback, endlessly discussing OS X in forums like these, with the sole purpose of doing our bit to make OS X better...

And what do we get by way of thanks? The opportunity to buy OS X again. Full price.

Thanks Apple

(I bought a G4/400 to run OS X. I replaced this with a G4/733 to try to run OS X better...I have 2 licenses for OS X, both 10.1)

booboo · Jul 19, 2002, 01:46 PM

Stop Press! Here in the UK Apple Store 10.2 is �99.00 That is over $150 (last time I checked the exchange rate...)

I am so hopping mad!

One other thing.

Apple needs to get 10.2 as visible as possible. This is the version of OS X Jo Public and Windows users might be won over by.

OK, we think OS 10.1 is pretty cool, but there is a degree of rdf at work here, as anyone who has tried to show off 10.1 can attest.

We forgive the spinning beachball to ourselves - or at least have gotten used to it - we accept that sometimes the system gets a little bogged down, and the corner of the window can end up inches behind where the cursor wants it to be. We put up with this because we have learned of the benefits of X. We learned those benefits after using OS X over a period of time.

First impressions count.

Watch the confusion of a newbie or the disbelief of a Windows user at what we put up with - or at least what I put up with on my 733 - and you can't help feeling a little apologetic. "It's just the way Quartz works - it's very advanced - uh - it'll be much faster in the next update..."

Apple needs OS X to gain market share.

I bought a load of iMac's (on behalf of various people and organisations) All shipped with 10-10.1. Mac OS X 10.2 was what I've waited for: the update I feel can provide long-time non-techie Mac users with a suitable/equivalent or better experience than 9 - right down to and including acceptable UI responsiveness, Spring-loaded folders and an email client that doesn't keep forgetting all its settings.

Just think about it. To us at home, when Mail loses its settings it's not that big a deal, but for technophobes in an office this is disaster. And Mail is several orders of magnitude more temperamental that Outlook Express ever was.

Currently all these iMac's are running OS 9, and at �99 here in the UK - that OVER $150 ! - it's going to stay that way for another year. Not necessarily even my decision.

Who loses? You decide.

In my opinion, Apple should ride this one out. 10.2 can be $129. retail. But to current 10.x users, it should be distributed in the same way 10.1 was. Free copy in store, or "handling charge".

I feel sick over this, I really do.

[ 07-19-2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: booboo ]

JohnD · Jul 19, 2002, 02:07 PM

You guys forget the TAX.
Apple already made a gesture to early adopters at the 10.1 update.
Anyone after 10.1 is not an early adopter anymore.
I think it's more like Apple introduces the 10.2 update a little early.
Apple did an awful lot to make 10.1 better and I think it is a very good usable system already.
If 10.2 promises what they say it does it's not a bad investment but I can understand the people complaining about the price looking at the timeframe.
Aren't we back at 12 'o clock now?
Only the .Mac part is really bad, Apple made promises which they do not keep!

JLL · Jul 19, 2002, 02:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CreamyAcorn:
�because in my mind, since I had boughten 10.1 at full price, I simply assumed that I would get 10.2 at an upgrade price, just how previous users had gotten it. But no, looks like apple wants to screw over those who paid full price on 10.1 as well.<hr /></blockquote>Since Mac OS 8: Full price (8.0), free (8.1), full price (8.5), free (8.6), full price (9.0), free (9.1/9.2), full price (10.0), free (10.1).

Please tell me what you think that Jaguar will cost according to the above mentioned.

JKT · Jul 19, 2002, 02:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by booboo:
Stop Press! Here in the UK Apple Store 10.2 is �99.00 That is over $150 (last time I checked the exchange rate...)

I am so hopping mad!<hr /></blockquote>Umm, the UK price includes VAT. IIRC, the US price doesn't include sales tax which might account for the price disparity?

FWIW �99 is $156.27 at the moment and $129 is �81.72 (which with 17.5% VAT is �96.02).

Edit: Forgot to mention, I think that the price is $30 too much, FWIW.

[ 07-19-2002, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: JKT ]

JLL · Jul 19, 2002, 02:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by booboo:
Stop Press! Here in the UK Apple Store 10.2 is �99.00 That is over $150 (last time I checked the exchange rate...)<hr /></blockquote>Well $150 - British VAT = $127,65

Who should be mad?

JLL · Jul 19, 2002, 02:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by booboo:

Just think about it. To us at home when Mail loses its settings it's not that big a deal, but for technophobes in an office this is disaster. And Mail is several orders of magnitude more temperamental that Outlook Express ever was.<hr /></blockquote>What on earth are you talking about? My Mail has never lost it's settings.

booboo · Jul 19, 2002, 02:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by booboo:

Just think about it. To us at home when Mail loses its settings it's not that big a deal, but for technophobes in an office this is disaster. And Mail is several orders of magnitude more temperamental that Outlook Express ever was.<hr /></blockquote>What on earth are you talking about? My Mail has never lost it's settings.<hr /></blockquote>Do e search...

punkboy · Jul 19, 2002, 02:42 PM

someone help me out - i just don't understand what the new version affords me. i have a 600mhz ibook which i mostly use for development purposes (j2ee java stuff). i won't get much out of quartz extreme, i hate apple's mail program, i use yahoo for IM, don't use this .mac thing, and the command line utility "find" forks wonders for finding things on the HD. sherlock? whatever. springy folders? bah. $129? not worth it as far as i can tell unless i'm missing something. perhaps i'll have to just to be compliant in the future but for now it just doesn't seem like i need it.

Group51 · Jul 19, 2002, 03:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by punkboy:
someone help me out - i just don't understand what the new version affords me. i have a 600mhz ibook which i mostly use for development purposes (j2ee java stuff). i won't get much out of quartz extreme, i hate apple's mail program, i use yahoo for IM, don't use this .mac thing, and the command line utility "find" forks wonders for finding things on the HD. sherlock? whatever. springy folders? bah. $129? not worth it as far as i can tell unless i'm missing something. perhaps i'll have to just to be compliant in the future but for now it just doesn't seem like i need it.<hr /></blockquote>It is faster (apparently), it has sub-pixel rendering (sharper fonts) and Windows networking.

I will buy, of course, as I will pay for .Mac, but I would rather there was an upgrade price. Does anyone know if there is an upgrade price for Photoshop Elements 2.0?

seb2 · Jul 19, 2002, 03:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JohnD:
You guys forget the TAX.
...<hr /></blockquote>i don't want to get picky, but in the u.s., you don't pay any sales tax if you order in another state, do you?

Toyin · Jul 19, 2002, 03:50 PM

I've used 10.1 as my primary OS since it's release. It's faster and more efficient than OS9(except scrolling) on my Dual500. I've got a lot of work done on it and I'm quite productive with it (though 10.1.5 is kicking my butt). I expected to pay $129 for 10.2 based on QE and the improved finder alone. The incorporation of isync, ical, addressbook, and mail with my Palm phone is just icing on the cake for me.

The .mac, Quicktime Pro, and Quicktime Mpeg2 support is another story though.

neilw · Jul 19, 2002, 04:03 PM

Just slightly off-topic, I think it is also kinda sucks that folks buying Macs between now and 10.2 get the priveledge of only paying $20 for the upgrade. Sorry, but those who buy within a month should get it free. I'm not sure what past Apple policy has been, though I don't really care in this case.

I don't actually think the $129 is that horrible in isolation, but when you add it to the .MAC fiasco, new QT Pro licensing, and $20 for MPEG-2, it feels like Apple has made a push to soak its users in every way possible simultaneously. Very bad PR in the midst of the switchers campaign.

Maybe Apple is trying to get all the bad press out of the way at once?

yuliang · Jul 19, 2002, 04:04 PM

I preordered mine right after the keynote with my student discount... hehehehe

$69 for poor college students!!!!! =)

Personally...I think Apple's fair compared to MS. XP Pro costs over $200! I paid for the public beta, got 10.0 free with my TiBook. got 10.1 free again, and finally 10.2... so for me, I don't feel screwed at all.

I do understand why someone would be pissed to pay $129 for 10.1 and then $129 for 10.2, and just less than a year apart.

Leonard · Jul 19, 2002, 04:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Griggsy:
it's a point upgrade not a full version number, therefore charge an upgrade price not a full version price, seems logical. If this goes through what happens at 10.3 another �100 , not bleedin likely matey

<hr /></blockquote>The problem is it's NOT a point upgrade. According to the NEW numbering schemes 10.1.2, 10.1.3, 10.1.4, and 10.1.5 are point releases, 10.2 is a full version release packed full of performance enhancements, new features and new apps. Apple put a lot of work into it.

I will be buying it once it's out on store shelves. I don't believe in preorder... I want something when I pay for it not a promise of something.

[ 07-19-2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

mikerally · Jul 19, 2002, 04:19 PM

If there is an Apple Store in your state you have to pay sales tax, even if you order from the Apple Store online.

asxless · Jul 19, 2002, 04:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by seb2:
i don't want to get picky, but in the u.s., you don't pay any sales tax if you order in another state, do you?<hr /></blockquote>It depends. For practical purposes, you are generally correct; _most_ peole do not pay sales tax on _most_ mail order purchases. But Apple does collect & pay state sales tax on all purchases made via their online store. See below for more details.

FWIW I _believe_ that all states require that sales tax be _paid_ but who is required to do the collecting/paying varies from state to state. Some states are very strict and require sales tax be collected & paid by the _seller_ on ALL sales. Some states only require companies with physical stores in their state to collect & pay sales tax and require the _purchaser_ to pay the sales tax if the seller did not collect it. BUT... this rule is almost never enforced. So most people (my guess would be 99.9999999%) do not voluntarily send in the sales tax. Apple seems to have taken the sales tax high ground and collects & pays state sales tax even when they are not _required_ to do so. BTW I _think_ that this was true even before Apple started opening retail outlets. It's also the reason I rarely buy anything from the online Apple Store. Clear as mud?

axless in iLand

[ 07-19-2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: asxless ]

asxless · Jul 19, 2002, 04:51 PM

OPPs hit reply instead of edit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[ 07-19-2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: asxless ]

OwlBoy · Jul 19, 2002, 04:51 PM

I'm Gonna buy it, mainly uz... well I never payed for OS X yet. Well I guess I did for the PB... but my old iMac's (revA) monitor went out and it was still under our extended warenty. So we got from comp usa for free cuz they ****ed around with us when we bought the iMac. My iMac was replaced with a snow one that had 10.0 and 9.1 on it. Also, on the same day it was replaced, I got the 10.1 update CD for free...

Now I have my own G4 iMac that came with 10.1.

I have not payed for OS X yet, cept for the PB. So I don't have alot of trouble buying 10.2... (heres to hopeong that 10.3 is free

).

The only other OS's my family / I has bought are 7.6, 9.0 and the PB of X.

So if you read that, you see that for my story its not that bad buying it.

-Owl

[ 07-19-2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: OwlBoy ]

seb2 · Jul 19, 2002, 05:06 PM

thanks for the explanation, asxless!

i did not know apple always collected taxes. -- makes me feel less bitter.
guess i now have to jump onto the e.u. for those stupid minimum taxes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

seriously, i'll buy jaguar. i mean, come on -- yes, it's a lot of money -- but on the other hand, i'll enjoy it a lot and when i see how much other big software companies (cough) charge for their "updates" and how long it takes them to respond to security issues (apple has shown twice that they take this seriously and responded very quickly, never forget that), i guess that's just the way things are and accept it.

cutterjohn · Jul 19, 2002, 06:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Talleyman:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by benh57:
Well said Edwin. I can't believe all these whiny ****s who keep saying "10.2 is just a bugfix, it should be free". Uh.. are you going to say that for every OSX release? 10.1 is great. There is NO WAY apple could have programmed the feature-set of 10.2 and had it ready 2 years ago.

You people have no clue how much work this stuff is.<hr /></blockquote>Well, since the Apple employees are donating their time (not unlike the complainers here), I agree! 10.2 and everything Apple ever offers should be free, or better yet programmed to my specifications (read: "stripped down").

Apple makes money, a lot of money, and so do you! You are in the richest 10% in the world and you're whining about paying for a luxury product! So, take that $129 and donate it to the World Relief Fund, or the Kenyan Childrens Foundation, or a local homeless shelter. Better yet, stop futzing on the computer and donate your TIME to the local Homeless shelter...go clean the pens at the animal shelter.

Bottom line: We live in a Democracy built on business! We like computers...no, we like expensive computers! So, the company that makes these luxury items is wanting more money for the newest technology. Pay it or don't. But please be rational, reasoning and fair.

JT<hr /></blockquote>and here I was under the apparently mistaken impressiont hat Apple employees were people who, by definition, are paid to produce results for Apple. Silly me. They're actually not paid, just volunteers, must be linux.

booboo · Jul 19, 2002, 06:03 PM

Prior to and around the time Mac OS X was released there was a lot of talk about how easy ("trivial" even) was the Carbonisation process.

So I bought OS X - nice to be an early adopter, support Apple and all that - and waited for my app's.

And waited, and waited.

18 month's on neither Cubase SX or Logic Audio (or even Digital Performer) have arrived.

When they do arrive, I think there's a fairly good chance they won't even work in 10.1 due to Core Audio "issues".

So not upgrading is (probably) not an option.

Anyway, I feel had, and I'm just so surprised that either most of you either have plenty of disposable income, or are just so blindly pro-Apple you're never going to find fault with the mothership's decisions.

My G4 - 3 months ago - wiped out all my surplus cash, and now I need to find another �100.

I can't remember the last time Adobe didn't offer an upgrade for say Photoshop.

[ 07-19-2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: booboo ]

Mongrel · Jul 19, 2002, 06:04 PM

How's this: Anyone who lives in the Denver/Boulder area, drop me a line, and we WILL only pay $65 for the upgrade. Or better yet, TWO folks call me, and we'll only pay $43! I think you see where I'm going with this...

IonCable · Jul 19, 2002, 06:17 PM

Leonard has got it right. Apple has changed it's numbering system for updates which is arbitary anyway. There are no "rules" for upgrade numbers, heck MS doesn't even use them. Apple did make the mistake of calling first major update 10.1, it should have been named 10.0.9 or something. The next major version you can bet will be 10.3 and so on. Apple wants to keep the OS X name for as long as possible, hence all the major updates will be 10.x and the small one will be 10.x.x.

slider · Jul 19, 2002, 06:20 PM

They want to keep the X, so if you think that because it's a bug fix just because it's only .2, then you can expect to continue to complain for .3.4.5.6.7.8.9. Jaguar is not 10.1.5.

Griggsy · Jul 19, 2002, 06:25 PM

It's just how it looks to the normal consumers, when most other software manufacturers use increments like this for small upgrades, to shell out for a full version at every decimal point seems a touch unfair and against market standards.

Apple just seems to have dropped the ball since the expo interms of PR, this and .mac have left an unusually bad taste.

And if this becomes the norm does this mean �100 every year to 18 months for a current OS, I love Apple and i love OS X, but that doesn't mean i have to be happy at paying for what I consider to be a matter of an upgrade CD and therefore �20.

Brazuca · Jul 19, 2002, 06:46 PM

I think that whether or not Apple thinks it should charge this much for the upgrade, they are opening themselves to a lot of trouble.

Microsoft charges a lot for its software and is thus faced with increased efforts to "save a buck" through piracy, copying, etc.

I don't think anyone can argue that the higher the price, the lower the (quantity) demand(ed). The problem in this case is that Apple will find it very hard to keep those who don't want to pay from getting the software anyways. So they are faced with elasticities: Will the increase in revenue that comes from a higher price offset the loss in sales to people not upgrading or pirating?

I've always liked Apple. I've *never* pirated any of their software though I've also always taken advantage of the education discount. I'm not going to spend that much money on thus upgrade unless I'm convinced that the features are worth it. So far, I'm not.

JLL · Jul 19, 2002, 07:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brazuca:
I think that whether or not Apple thinks it should charge this much for the upgrade, they are opening themselves to a lot of trouble.<hr /></blockquote>Why are they suddenly opening themselves to a lot of trouble? The situation wasn't any different with 8.1 -> 8.5, 8.6 -> 9.0, 9.2 -> 10.0.

JohnD · Jul 19, 2002, 07:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brazuca:
I think that whether or not Apple thinks it should charge this much for the upgrade, they are opening themselves to a lot of trouble.

Microsoft charges a lot for its software and is thus faced with increased efforts to "save a buck" through piracy, copying, etc.

I don't think anyone can argue that the higher the price, the lower the (quantity) demand(ed). The problem in this case is that Apple will find it very hard to keep those who don't want to pay from getting the software anyways. So they are faced with elasticities: Will the increase in revenue that comes from a higher price offset the loss in sales to people not upgrading or pirating?

I've always liked Apple. I've *never* pirated any of their software though I've also always taken advantage of the education discount. I'm not going to spend that much money on thus upgrade unless I'm convinced that the features are worth it. So far, I'm not.<hr /></blockquote>If you want to use Jagwire to the full you have to pay $129 once plus $100 per year, Apple gives a very promising $50 discount for iTool members!

Brazuca · Jul 19, 2002, 07:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brazuca:
I think that whether or not Apple thinks it should charge this much for the upgrade, they are opening themselves to a lot of trouble.<hr /></blockquote>Why are they suddenly opening themselves to a lot of trouble? The situation wasn't any different with 8.1 -> 8.5, 8.6 -> 9.0, 9.2 -> 10.0.<hr /></blockquote>I'm being compared to Kelly Hogan (ugh!) for answering questions like this. So I'll just shut up and let the chips fall where they may. I think I've said enough and people are getting tired of me.

MegaGrunt · Jul 19, 2002, 08:31 PM

I vote we rename it to 10.2 Hyena!

If Apple gets enough bad press off of this, they will do the right thing and provide an upgrade price rather than mauling their most enthusiastic customers.

asxless · Jul 19, 2002, 09:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MegaGrunt:
I vote we rename it to 10.2 Hyena!<hr /></blockquote>ROTFL The $129 price has certainly made a lot of folks howl.

I don't think I'll ever be able to get the hynea image out of my head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

asxless in iLand

iRei · Jul 19, 2002, 09:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MegaGrunt:
I vote we rename it to 10.2 Hyena!

If Apple gets enough bad press off of this, they will do the right thing and provide an upgrade price rather than mauling their most enthusiastic customers.<hr /></blockquote>Ya. Lets scare possible switchers away and fuel the Mac bashers. That leaves us with a plateform that is going to wither and we'll be back to the good old days before steve returned.

I don't know about you BUT I DO NOT like that plan.

Dr Evil · Jul 20, 2002, 12:55 AM

If you want to get technical, early adopters got $30 off of 10.0 if you bought Public Beta. When I got PB I didn't think I would get a discount, but I really wanted it so I paid anyway.

I've bought 8.5, Public Beta, and 10.0 and got 9 with my iBook. I have no problem paying for something that I will use. Since I do get the Education Discount, I am more likely to buy, but I could have just as easily gotten a non-legal copy.

I for one am out raged at paying the full price for Jaguar. I just paid for a full verison of 10.0 16 months ago and got a copy of 10.1 with my G4 last November. I understand that Apple gave us 10.1, but they OWED it to us early adopters. There were NO programs at 10.0 launch and for a long time afterward. 10.0 performace on the notebooks was and still is awful. I get almost 4 hours in 9 but not even 2.5 in X, although 10.1 made strides. I hear that 10.2 is better, but they OWE that to the people who for a year and half had NO power saving features on the notebooks. Even $30 off would make me happy. I can handle paying something, but full price for something that I should had a year and half ago like POWER MANAGEMENT, Windows file sharing, print sharing, responsive Finder, graphics acceleration for QT and for the system its self is ridiculus.

Microsoft hasn't even charged for OS'es in that span of time aside from 98 SE if memory serves me right. But 98 SE wasn't a required update like 10.2 will be. I bet that all the new iApps will REQUIRE 10.2 in the coming months like iSync and iCal do now.

Between Jaguar and the whole .mac thing, I am not real thrilled with Steve, and Apple for that matter.