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Who are the neocons?
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macintologist
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Mar 22, 2005, 09:38 AM
 
-They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.

-They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.

-They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.

-They accept the notion that the ends justify the means � that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.

-They express no opposition to the welfare state.

-They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.

-They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.

-They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.

-They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.

-They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.

-They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.

-They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.

-Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable.

-Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.

-9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.

-They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)

-They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.

-They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.
     
BoomStick
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Mar 22, 2005, 09:50 AM
 
That post was like the energizer bunny of stupid.
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 22, 2005, 02:16 PM
 
I haven't seen that much **** since I had to drain my septic system.
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The forbidden fruit.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Mar 22, 2005, 02:29 PM
 
Wow, macintologist take a powder already.

That post is such a sloppy hodge-podge of slung together, misused, and COMPLETELY off target political terms and ideas, that it reads more like any one of trillions of random nonsense documents that monkeys typed somewhere along the multi-million year timeline of banging randomly on keyboards until serendipitously reproducing the complete works of Shakespeare.
     
budster101
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Mar 22, 2005, 02:59 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
-They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.



- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

- I need to rant.

Finished?
     
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Mar 22, 2005, 03:16 PM
 
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Shaddim
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Mar 22, 2005, 03:24 PM
 
Wow... the bitterness over losing the last election continues. Just amazing.
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adamk
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Mar 22, 2005, 04:26 PM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
That post was like the energizer bunny of stupid.
and yours did nothing to rebuke it. way to go!

but his points do entail a lot of what has been publicly endorsed by the project for a new american century. you may not find each bullet explicitly on their website but for a majority, they hold true. here is their statement of principles.

here is one stated goal:
"we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles."
which is a prettier way of saying:
-They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
-They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
-They accept the notion that the ends justify the means � that hard-ball politics is a moral necissity
-They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
-Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable.
-Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.
-9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
or am i the only one? you may have some semanitc trouble with the word imperialism, empire, as i do, but the end result is still similiar.

no matter what you choose to call them - i've always understand "neocons" to refer to these guys - many are in positions of power in our gov't.
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 22, 2005, 04:45 PM
 
And you can do what other than bitch?
To create a universe
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The forbidden fruit.
     
macintologist  (op)
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:02 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
And you can do what other than bitch?
The neocons are globalists. They believe in the new world order. They accept giving up national sovereignty to a one world government.

It's already been admitted. Congressmen Ron Paul, a Republican from Texas has made it public that plans are in place to create a one world government.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:05 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
The neocons are globalists. They believe in the new world order. They accept giving up national sovereignty to a one world government.

It's already been admitted. Congressmen Ron Paul, a Republican from Texas has made it public that plans are in place to create a one world government.
Yes, one world government -- ours.

Muhahahahahahahah! Muhahahahahahaha! Muhahahahahahah!
     
Shaddim
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:08 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
The neocons are globalists. They believe in the new world order.
As opposed to the EU's plan for globalization?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:10 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
The neocons are globalists. They believe in the new world order.
Hate to burst your bubble. The NWO was Klinton's idea.
Only a freaking leftist would want the New World Order.
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The forbidden fruit.
     
adamk
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:21 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Yes, one world government -- ours.
i never had the idea that they wanted to rule the world ourselves, rather be able to control the governments around the world, to get the natural resources the US needs. it's far easier to coerce another country into giving up vital resources, changing policies by withholding money, than it is to govern that country, and have to provide all the guaranteed rights of citizens to their citizenry.

one area the neocons are falling behind in is supporting democratic allies, like Taiwan and India. not sure how selling high-performance F-16's to the nuclear equipped, dictator-led government of pakistan is sitting with the world's largest democracy, aka pakistan's bitter rival.

but maybe democracy is just icing on the strategic cake (double icing if we are selling to both india and pakistan).
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
adamk
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:26 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Hate to burst your bubble. The NWO was Klinton's idea.
Only a freaking leftist would want the New World Order.
no, hate to burst your... ah, too easy. the phrase "new world order" was uttered by george h. bush in 1991.
link
[edit: who took the phrase from Winston Churchill]
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 22, 2005, 05:43 PM
 
Did you even read the article? It's about
Now the challenge is to reach higher � to foster economic freedom and prosperity for all people of the region.
Peace.


The NWO is about one world government. A socialist idea. The left.
Still, resist the NWO no matter who you think is responsible.
To create a universe
You must taste
The forbidden fruit.
     
adamk
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Mar 22, 2005, 06:04 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Did you even read the article? It's about
Peace.


The NWO is about one world government. A socialist idea. The left.
Still, resist the NWO no matter who you think is responsible.
well, i read the speech.

and the speech may be about peace, but some of the promises required for that peace were not met. for example:
First, we must work together to create shared security arrangements in the region. ... This does not mean stationing US ground forces on the Arabian Peninsula, but it does mean American participation in joint exercises involving both air and ground forces. It means maintaining a capable US naval presence in the region, just as we have for over 40 years. Let it be clear: our vital national interests depend on a stable and secure Gulf.
if we had kept our troops out of the Arabian Peninsula, history might have been different on september 11th. whether or not we were invited/asked to stay, george bush obviously recognized this as a requirement, but it wasn't carried through with (blame him or clinton - i blame both).

and the second part of that passage fits in with the neocon strategy - maintain our access to oil at, sorry, vital national interests, at all cost.

and i'm not sure how any of this deals with socialism, where the workers own and reap the benefits of their work. i don't remember clinton rescinding ownership of corporate stocks and distributing them equally among all citizens of the US.

i guess i would ask that you define what the New World Order is then. and how it compares with the neocons strategy.
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 22, 2005, 06:24 PM
 
I still don't understand what this mythical neocon is.

The New World Order is the one world government envisioned by the liberal left for a socialist utopia. Financed by the rich and working man to redistribute all the "wealth" equally among all. Even if your ambition is to be a leech upon the system.
To create a universe
You must taste
The forbidden fruit.
     
budster101
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Mar 22, 2005, 06:31 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
I still don't understand what this mythical neocon is.

The New World Order is the one world government envisioned by the liberal left for a socialist utopia. Financed by the rich and working man to redistribute all the "wealth" equally among all. Even if your ambition is to be a leech upon the system.
Neocon is the new "N" word.

They hated being called Liberals so much, they had to make up a word of their own...
     
placebo1969
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Mar 22, 2005, 08:59 PM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
Neocon is the new "N" word.

They hated being called Liberals so much, they had to make up a word of their own...
I know you put the in, but I agree with this. Neocon is just used as a pejorative, much as Liberal is used. Sounds like schoolyard name-calling to me.
     
adamk
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Mar 22, 2005, 11:53 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
I still don't understand what this mythical neocon is.

The New World Order is the one world government envisioned by the liberal left for a socialist utopia. Financed by the rich and working man to redistribute all the "wealth" equally among all. Even if your ambition is to be a leech upon the system.
and how is this being carried out right now? in the united states? do you see this happening when segregation of wealth is becoming greater in most countries?
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
Zimphire
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:00 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
That post was like the energizer bunny of stupid.


And I agree.

Most of those lists like that are.
     
Zimphire
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:04 AM
 
Originally posted by budster101:
Neocon is the new "N" word.

They hated being called Liberals so much, they had to make up a word of their own...
Difference is, Liberal was originally supposed to mean something good. But over the years their anal retentive overly politically correct nature lent them a bad connotation.

"Neocon" is just another 2-bit word the left came up on their own to demonize the right.

It's the buzzword of the year, used by clueless lefties on the interweb.
     
nath
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Mar 23, 2005, 02:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
"Neocon" is just another 2-bit word the left came up on their own to demonize the right.
Afraid not. I guess you meant to say 'came up with', but you'd still be wrong. The term has been around for years and was initially self-referential, as in the title of Irving Kristol's book, published in 1983.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It's the buzzword of the year, used by clueless lefties on the interweb.
Whether you think it's clueless or not, there's very little factual inaccuracy in the OP's summary of 'neo con' beliefs. Whether these are also the beliefs of key players in the current administration is another matter (although there does seem to be quite a lot of crossover between the two groups).

But I can understand why people would want to use ad hom attacks to disassociate themselves from such vile ideas so plainly expressed, so well done for having at least some self-esteem. Sometimes embarrassment is enough.
( Last edited by nath; Mar 23, 2005 at 06:46 AM. )
     
itai195
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Mar 23, 2005, 02:21 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
It's the buzzword of the year, used by clueless lefties on the interweb.
Surely, you meant to say 'internets.'
     
macintologist  (op)
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Mar 23, 2005, 04:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Difference is, Liberal was originally supposed to mean something good. But over the years their anal retentive overly politically correct nature lent them a bad connotation.

"Neocon" is just another 2-bit word the left came up on their own to demonize the right.

It's the buzzword of the year, used by clueless lefties on the interweb.
Incorrect, I am not leftwing. I am libertarian. I am using Neocon to attack those who want big government and an American empire.
     
roberto blanco
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Mar 23, 2005, 05:01 AM
 
they are the fascists of the 21st century. no doubt about it.

abuse of power, imperialism, war mongering, nationalism etc. it's all there. straussian philosphy is as close as you can get to "national socialism".

except that in this case, the (abuse of) power isn't dirived from a strong and centralized govt., but from a religio-fascist superstructure that operates from within the us.

naming wolfowitz the head of the world bank is just another small step towards their final goal.

life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators - r. dawkins
     
macintologist  (op)
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Mar 23, 2005, 05:17 AM
 
Originally posted by roberto blanco:
they are the fascists of the 21st century. no doubt about it.

abuse of power, imperialism, war mongering, nationalism etc. it's all there. straussian philosphy is as close as you can get to "national socialism".

except that in this case, the (abuse of) power isn't dirived from a strong and centralized govt., but from a religio-fascist superstructure that operates from within the us.

naming wolfowitz the head of the world bank is just another small step towards their final goal.
They also want to grow government, and expand the welfare state.
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 23, 2005, 08:35 AM
 
Originally posted by adamk:
and how is this being carried out right now? in the united states? do you see this happening when segregation of wealth is becoming greater in most countries?
Segregation of wealth?
You're kidding, right?
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The forbidden fruit.
     
Zimphire
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Mar 23, 2005, 09:08 AM
 
Yes I know, the people who use it always have a lame excuse why.
     
Shaddim
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Mar 23, 2005, 11:19 AM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
Surely, you meant to say 'internets.'
The ones Algore invented?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
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Mar 23, 2005, 11:22 AM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
They also want to grow government, and expand the welfare state.
By privatizing SS?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
BoomStick
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Mar 23, 2005, 11:23 AM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
They also want to grow government, and expand the welfare state.
Holy carp, you really ARE the energizer bunny of stupid!
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 23, 2005, 11:31 AM
 
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Welfare state.
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You must taste
The forbidden fruit.
     
adamk
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:22 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Segregation of wealth?
You're kidding, right?
i guess i meant 'distribution' of wealth, but i think you know what i meant. am i kidding? about what? asking you a question? no, i was trying to see what reasoning you had for believing that wealth could/is being redistributed to the poorer people in the US.

consider in 1979 the top 1% made/earned 33 times what the lower 20% made. this changed to 88 times by 2000. do you not see a growing disparity here?
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
adamk
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:24 PM
 
dp
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:32 PM
 
So you want what?
Regulation as to how much someone can make?
To create a universe
You must taste
The forbidden fruit.
     
nath
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:41 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
So you want what?
Regulation as to how much someone can make?
An admission that the 'trickle-down' economic theory long proposed by your favoured politicians has demonstrably failed would be nice.
     
BoomStick
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:52 PM
 
Reward for failure and punishment for success is not an option.
     
adamk
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:59 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
So you want what?
Regulation as to how much someone can make?
i want you to answer a question with an answer, not a question. so, you are scared of the new world order, right? do you see any evidence of this new world order being imposed on you right now, or when clinton was president.

and to answer your question, i do believe their should be some regulation as to how much somebody can make. i think minumum wage is too low and should be raised so people making minimum wage can afford to buy food w/o food stamps or rely on gov't support to make ends meet.

should there be a cap on how much you could make? no.
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
nath
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Mar 23, 2005, 12:59 PM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Reward for failure and punishment for success is not an option.
Nice dodge. Even managed to get a bit of dogma in there!
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 23, 2005, 01:01 PM
 
Raised to how much?
$50k/year?
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The forbidden fruit.
     
adamk
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Mar 23, 2005, 01:13 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Raised to how much?
$50k/year?
um, like i said before, enough so that they don't need to rely on gov't foodstamps for food? and maybe we could give everyone a cadillac too.

i guess you really don't believe this New World Order stuff do you? or do you just have no evidence that it is actually and in any way being implemented?
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" begins with yrself.

"He that fights for Allah's cause fights for himself. Allah does not need His creatures' help." -koran, the spider, 29:7
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 23, 2005, 02:01 PM
 
NWO is one world government.
There is no solid evidence it IS being implemented.
To create a universe
You must taste
The forbidden fruit.
     
Shaddim
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Mar 23, 2005, 02:37 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
NWO is one world government.
There is no solid evidence it IS being implemented.
`cept by the Europeans...
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
macintologist  (op)
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Mar 23, 2005, 05:15 PM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Welfare state.
See neocon budget deficit.
     
bubblewrap
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Mar 23, 2005, 06:28 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
`cept by the Europeans...
Now we're getting somewhere.
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The forbidden fruit.
     
roberto blanco
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Mar 24, 2005, 03:04 AM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
They also want to grow government, and expand the welfare state.
yup. just like the fascists in the 1930s (of course the term "welfare state" should be closely analyzed here (fine print))

too bad for some that their nice little liberal/conservative dichotomy universe is falling apart.

politics isn't essentially about having a small or big govt., it's about the excercise of power.

life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators - r. dawkins
     
macintologist  (op)
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Mar 24, 2005, 09:50 AM
 
Originally posted by adamk:
um, like i said before, enough so that they don't need to rely on gov't foodstamps for food? and maybe we could give everyone a cadillac too.

i guess you really don't believe this New World Order stuff do you? or do you just have no evidence that it is actually and in any way being implemented?
The neocons and globalists want to bring down America so they can usher in their new world order under the guise of the united nations. They are doing this by growing gov't to the point where it cannot be sustained. See growing budget deficit, spending increases. The neocons are also taking small steps at stripping us of our 4th and 5th amendment rights. They endorse the usa patriot act, as well as FDR's the New Deal. They support judicial activism. The neocons don't have the interests of the American people at heart. They endorse a one world gov't. The plans are there! Listen to Ron Paul!
     
roberto blanco
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Mar 24, 2005, 10:51 AM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
The neocons and globalists want to bring down America so they can usher in their new world order under the guise of the united nations.
interesting, could you please elaborate (especially the part about the united nations).

life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators - r. dawkins
     
   
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