[TETENAL]

Apparently Apple isn't giving anything useful back to the KHTML folks, so they are not benefitting from Safari at all.

So, when will KHTML merge all the WebCore changes?

by Zack Rusin

You can�t even imagine how I hate that question. The truth is �most probably never�. I just read the article on /. about Safari supporting the �all crack Acid2? test and people raving how great it is for KHTML. The truth is that KHTML will probably never get those patches. What�s most probably going to happen is that one of us will simply reimplement it from scratch (and at the moment the reality is that if it�s not going to be Allan or Germain it�s not going to happen).

Code in Safari is hugely inconsistent and changes are always interdependent. There�s basically no way of merging in one change without bringing a whole bunch of others in. And you know what? Don�t even tell me about merging stuff like render_canvasimage.h,cpp. It outright uses OS X api�s. We�ll never be able to merge that in - someone will have to implement it. And what�s going to happen when someone does? Some jackass on /. or some other equally stupid site will be praising Apple.

In the past when someone spent long hours implementing something in KHTML, they at least got a �thank you� from people using Konqueror. Now it�s �well finally! It was working in Safari. khtml developers are lazy�. Where�s the fun in that?

Do you have any idea how hard it is to be merging between two totally different trees when one of them doesn�t have any history? That�s the situation KDE is in. We created the khtml-cvs list for Apple, they got CVS accounts for KDE CVS. What did we get? We get periodical code bombs in the form of them releasing WebCore. Many of us wanted to even sign NDA�s with Apple to at least get access to the history of their internal vcs and be able to be merging the changes incrementally, the way they can right now. Nothing came out of it. They do the very, very minimum required by LGPL.

And you know what? That�s their right. They made a conscious decision about not working with KDE developers. All I�m asking for is that all the clueless people stop talking about the cooperation between Safari/Konqueror developers and how great it is. There�s absolutely nothing great about it. In fact �it� doesn�t exist. Maybe for Apple - at the very least for their marketing people. Clear?

[Millennium]

Ridiculous.

The patches are available right on Dave Hyatt's blog. The KHTML folks can use them anytime they want, as they choose. Although Hyatt made the mistake of not including licensing data, it can be presumed that they fall under the same license as WebCore itself.

If the KHTML team doesn't want to include the patches, then that's their prerogative, but Apple has done its part. The rest is solely up to the KHTML team.

[Thinine]

It's not that Apple isn't giving anything back to KHTML, it's that the changes they made are large and drastic. It's up to KHTML to implement those changes, if they want to take the time. Apple is under no obligation to do their work for them.

[TETENAL]

It's not that Apple isn't giving anything back. It's the fact that Apple is giving back in way that makes it almost impossible for the KHTML developers to reimport Apple's patches (while formally fulfilling the requirements of the license).

Hyatt talks briefly about the allegations:

"KHTML developers respond to my posting of the WebCore Acid2 patches here and here.

For what it's worth, the patches I posted are to WebCore, which consists of both KHTML and KWQ (our port of Qt). They are posted to illustrate all the WebCore bugs that had to be fixed in Safari to pass the Acid2 test. They are not solely KHTML patches. The antialiasing bug was in KWQ, and so doesn't even apply to KHTML. The better object element support necessarily involves KWQ as well, since the plugin code is (obviously) platform-specific."

[TETENAL]

bump

[yukon]

As I heard it, Apple was contributing the code back with many changes and no history, so the kong developers couldn't quite tell what was going on as each change wasn't seperate and logged. Supposedly the patches available depend on functionality added by Apple that wasn't easily understood and incorporated into KHTML, or wasn't up to the "coding stardards" of KHTML, and as above some changes depend on OS X libraries (how surprising). In any case, Apple is abiding by the license, and they're doing more than required....they could of course do more to make it easier for KHTML to incorporate those changes, but this is still a company doing more than it has to in order to use LGPL code.

I'm not certain on all of that, but the title "Apple isn't giving anything back to KHTML" needed a response.

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Ridiculous.

The patches are available right on Dave Hyatt's blog. The KHTML folks can use them anytime they want, as they choose. Although Hyatt made the mistake of not including licensing data, it can be presumed that they fall under the same license as WebCore itself.

If the KHTML team doesn't want to include the patches, then that's their prerogative, but Apple has done its part. The rest is solely up to the KHTML team.

You obviously haven't RTFA.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Angus_D

You obviously haven't RTFA.

I had read it, actually, though there were some clarifications made after that post such that I understand the situation better.

So for all intents and purposes, WebCore is a fork of KHTML. I'm still forced to wonder what the big deal is. Although forks in Open-Source software aren't something I'd call common, this wasn't the first, and it won't be the last. Even if the code can't be merged straight in, there's no doubt that it can still be useful.

[TETENAL]

The KHTML developer has responded to Hyatt:

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/14

[kcmac]

I am speaking out of total ignorance here so take my comments in that context.

As a lay person, this is what you would expect when you have people paid to work on things and people volunteering to work on things.

Apple and it's employees have huge motivation to progress rapidly with the development of Safari and the rest of OS X. The original developers, while certainly highly motivated individuals, just do not have the same resources. Yeah, there may be a lot of volunteers out there but they are not in the same building, focused on the task.

I am guessing that half of their frustration would be that even if everything was presented real time or in the exact fashion that they would want it, they simply would not be able to keep up since they are volunteers and geographically separated. Apple does appear to be releasing revisions back to the community.

I can only say go Apple, go.

[Chuckit]

It sounds to me (from all the entries I've read on the topic) like the main problem is that Apple has customized WebCore too much, so integrating changes to WebCore back into KHTML is a painful process.

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It sounds to me (from all the entries I've read on the topic) like the main problem is that Apple has customized WebCore too much, so integrating changes to WebCore back into KHTML is a painful process.

Well, not only that but they are also not being terribly transparent in what they're doing. There are obvious major advantages to it being a two-way street.

The Compiler team is a good model for how Apple can interact successfully with an open-source project. It sounds like the WebCore guys could learn some lessons there.

[Person Man]

Bump.

Looks like Apple has addressed the KDE developers' concerns AND THEN SOME.

Now we can download and compile the latest version of WebKit and run it within Safari without having to wait until Apple gets around to updating it in Mac OS 10.4.15...

Go here for more info.

I must say I'm quite surprised. Apple could have taken the "easy" way out and just ignored the whole thing. But this is pretty nice.

[[APi]TheMan]

From Hyatt's weblog:

"We've already received and committed several patches from external contributors and the repository has only been live for a few hours!"

Sounds like people are actually helping out. That's great!

[JLL]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Bump.

Looks like Apple has addressed the KDE developers' concerns AND THEN SOME.

A little note: Apples change to the WebCore development is not because of the KDE discussion - it has been discussed at Apple for a long time.