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SONY Hacks and fallout vs Charlie and further intolerences (Page 2)
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besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 12:55 PM
 
Maher's intended takeaway point was probably a general wake-up call towards the dangers of organized religion, that I support. Maybe his provocative approach is a good thing to challenge the extents in which we embrace organized religion.
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How does this challenge my point?
These days, Christians are not hunting down and killing those who blaspheme Jesus and His Mother. Eric Rudolph (abortuary and Olympic bomber) was condemnd roundly by anyone who breathed, unlike those who called the Paris Jihadists "activist" (Christiane Amanpour)
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How does this challenge my point? If hundreds of millions were in favor of human beings carrying out a God's wishes we'd be living in World War III right now.
God wishes
28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he; 33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask hin any question.
     
smacintush
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Jan 11, 2015, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
That's not what anybody is doing though. Liberals are whitewashing Muslims, not Muslim extremists. There is much disconnect.
Perhaps I stated it incorrectly.

There are a lot of people, liberals being dominant among them, that are and have been whitewashing islam itself, and by extension the so-called moderates. "When there are this many bad apples, there's something wrong with the orchard." is damn right. They have been bending over backward soft peddle Islam and appease its adherents in the name of...what? "Tolerance"? Tolerance for evil only begets more evil, as we are seeing.

As Maher observed in the Kimmel video, sure these so-called moderates may never have carried out these attacks themselves but they damn sure applaud it. You know, because "if you insult the prophet you get what's coming to you."

There is a distinct lack of moral clarity and moral courage in the west today and the Muslims are capitalizing on that.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 11, 2015, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maher's intended takeaway point was probably a general wake-up call towards the dangers of organized religion, that I support. Maybe his provocative approach is a good thing to challenge the extents in which we embrace organized religion.
No, he congratulated Christians for being able to take criticism and accept satire, it's rare that someone gets violent when people take shots at Jesus, because Jesus said (in no uncertain terms), "don't take revenge, don't do that". Maher specifically called out Islam as "the religion of bad ideas", not anyone else, and he's right. Mohammad didn't say to turn the other cheek, he said to take a pound of flesh in the name of Allah. That's the difference, that's why, sad to say (and I've given this more thought than usual lately), it's a religion whose existence we can no longer justify within modern context.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 11, 2015, 01:48 PM
 
Essentially, the fact is, there are many good, peaceful muslims, I know more than my fair share, but that's in spite of the religion's teachings, not because of them.
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besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
These days, Christians are not hunting down and killing those who blaspheme Jesus and His Mother. Eric Rudolph (abortuary and Olympic bomber) was condemnd roundly by anyone who breathed, unlike those who called the Paris Jihadists "activist" (Christiane Amanpour)

That does not relate to my point.

My point is that there aren't hundreds of millions of Muslims that believe they should carry out the wishes of their creator via these sorts of actions, which is what Maher seemed to be inferring to me.
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Perhaps I stated it incorrectly.

There are a lot of people, liberals being dominant among them, that are and have been whitewashing islam itself, and by extension the so-called moderates. "When there are this many bad apples, there's something wrong with the orchard." is damn right. They have been bending over backward soft peddle Islam and appease its adherents in the name of...what? "Tolerance"? Tolerance for evil only begets more evil, as we are seeing.

As Maher observed in the Kimmel video, sure these so-called moderates may never have carried out these attacks themselves but they damn sure applaud it. You know, because "if you insult the prophet you get what's coming to you."

There is a distinct lack of moral clarity and moral courage in the west today and the Muslims are capitalizing on that.

Agreed, maybe this is how I should have understood Maher too.

That being said, I still have a hard time believing that hundreds of millions would even applaud these acts. This particular claim was not a logical jump, but I'm inclined to let it go because it is a fairly minor quibble with the main thrust of his argument.

There are days when I really question whether humanity as a whole would be better off with or without religion. Not seeing these violent acts is of course a huge upgrade over this sort of violence, but...
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Essentially, the fact is, there are many good, peaceful muslims, I know more than my fair share, but that's in spite of the religion's teachings, not because of them.
Brigitte Gabriel addresses this.
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No, he congratulated Christians for being able to take criticism and accept satire, it's rare that someone gets violent when people take shots at Jesus, because Jesus said (in no uncertain terms), "don't take revenge, don't do that". Maher specifically called out Islam as "the religion of bad ideas", not anyone else, and he's right. Mohammad didn't say to turn the other cheek, he said to take a pound of flesh in the name of Allah. That's the difference, that's why, sad to say (and I've given this more thought than usual lately), it's a religion whose existence we can no longer justify within modern context.

I don't know enough about it to question this on a religious basis. These people though, if Islam ceased to exist, would they come up with something new that reinforces this way of thinking, or would they become fully secular?

In other words, is Islam (or any other religion) a home to people that are predisposed to thinking a certain way, or does Islam *cause* people to think a certain way?
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:16 PM
 
Chongo: people used to get annoyed with you pasting in snippets of articles without providing your own commentary so that we can have a discussion with you rather than an article. You seemed to have replaced that with posting videos. If these particular people weren't inclined to read your posts, why do you think they'd watch your video?

At least summarize it and provide your own commentary, rather than being some sort of news aggregator service.
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Chongo: people used to get annoyed with you pasting in snippets of articles without providing your own commentary so that we can have a discussion with you rather than an article. You seemed to have replaced that with posting videos. If these particular people weren't inclined to read your posts, why do you think they'd watch your video?

At least summarize it and provide your own commentary, rather than being some sort of news aggregator service.
Please, there are others that "post snippets...."
Miss Gabriel addresses the question of the "moderate majority of Muslims" I provide the clips to avoid being accused of "cherry picking" statements or drawing incorrect concusions" You can watch the clip, hear the person in their own words, and come to your own conclusion.
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Please,there a others theat "post snippets...."
Miss Gabriel addresses the question of the "moderate majority of Muslims" I provide the clips to avoid being accused of "cherry picking" statements or drawing incorrect concusions" You can watch the clip, hear the person in their own words, and come to your own conclusion.

When Abe isn't around you are the king of copy and paste.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
That does not relate to my point.

My point is that there aren't hundreds of millions of Muslims that believe they should carry out the wishes of their creator via these sorts of actions, which is what Maher seemed to be inferring to me.
He said the exact opposite of that.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't know enough about it to question this on a religious basis. These people though, if Islam ceased to exist, would they come up with something new that reinforces this way of thinking, or would they become fully secular?

In other words, is Islam (or any other religion) a home to people that are predisposed to thinking a certain way, or does Islam *cause* people to think a certain way?
They're taught from the cradle to believe that way, to hate, subjugate, and destroy, as part of their indoctrination and incorporated into their laws.
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Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
He said the exact opposite of that.
That is the point Mrs Gabriel is making. "The peaceful majority" is irrelevant.
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
They're taught from the cradle to believe that way, to hate, subjugate, and destroy, as part of their indoctrination and incorporated into their laws.
The extremists? Sure.

There is no way that every adherent is taught to hate, subjugate, and destroy at birth. This is something that is picked up as fanaticism is ratcheted up. If this wasn't so, if a third of the world's population was into this kind of hate we'd be living in WW III right now.
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The extremists? Sure.

There is no way that every adherent is taught to hate, subjugate, and destroy at birth. This is something that is picked up as fanaticism is ratcheted up. If this wasn't so, if a third of the world's population was into this kind of hate we'd be living in WW III right now.
Almost one quarter of one third of the worlds population is "fanaticized" The Crusades ended a long time ago, but the Jihad continues. If you haven't watched the video I posted, you need to. (Why are we afraid)

Eric Holder was asked if we are at war with radical Islam, as the president of France has said. His answer? Blah blah blah of course he won't say. We can't have Dearboristan go up in flames
Is the U.S. at War with Radical Islam? - NBC News
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Chongo: people used to get annoyed with you pasting in snippets of articles without providing your own commentary so that we can have a discussion with you rather than an article. You seemed to have replaced that with posting videos. If these particular people weren't inclined to read your posts, why do you think they'd watch your video?

At least summarize it and provide your own commentary, rather than being some sort of news aggregator service.
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Please, there are others that "post snippets...."
Miss Gabriel addresses the question of the "moderate majority of Muslims" I provide the clips to avoid being accused of "cherry picking" statements or drawing incorrect concusions" You can watch the clip, hear the person in their own words, and come to your own conclusion.
Also, are you guys afriaid to watch them?
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 04:28 PM
 
Col. Peter's idea sound like Carthaginian Peace. Leave smoking ruins and crying widows. If they rebuild, leave more smoking ruins and crying widows. (good enough summary?)

Peters' Plan to Fight Terror: 'Leave Behind Smoking Ruins & Crying Widows'
     
smacintush
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Jan 11, 2015, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Col. Peter's idea sound like Carthaginian Peace. Leave smoking ruins and crying widows. If they rebuild, leave more smoking ruins and crying widows. (good enough summary?)

Peters' Plan to Fight Terror: 'Leave Behind Smoking Ruins & Crying Widows'
Well, I for one think he's on the right track, a little weak for my tastes but he still has the right idea.
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:30 PM
 
Many of you have expressed disdain for Benedict XVI. It looks like some in the press are reassessing the criticism he received after the Regensburg address.
Regensburg Redux: Was Pope Benedict XVI right about Islam? (ANALYSIS) - Religion News Service
     
BadKosh  (op)
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Jan 12, 2015, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
That does not relate to my point.

My point is that there aren't hundreds of millions of Muslims that believe they should carry out the wishes of their creator via these sorts of actions, which is what Maher seemed to be inferring to me.
Assumption stated as fact......
     
besson3c
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Jan 12, 2015, 09:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Assumption stated as fact......
It's called common sense, moron.
     
Chongo
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Jan 12, 2015, 09:51 AM
 
It's estimated that up to 25% of Muslims are "radicialized. Out of 1.2 billion, that's hundreds of millions.
     
BadKosh  (op)
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Jan 12, 2015, 09:56 AM
 
Oh, that pesky numbers thing again.

But, realizing THAT would require actually thinking, not just emoting and relating fictional stereotypes.
     
Chongo
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
So, Cameron, Netanyahu and Abbas, Merkel, King Abdullah, Hollande are marching in Paris today. The US rep, Eric Holder? Why not Biden or Kerry?
It turns out Holder was in France for a terrorism summit and did not attend the Unity March. In a show of unity, the US was a no show.

Eric Holder, U.S. officials no-shows at Paris unity rally - NY Daily News
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:19 AM
 
I should know better than to jump in here, but really:

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It's estimated that up to 25% of Muslims are "radicialized. Out of 1.2 billion, that's hundreds of millions.
Source for that? Because that sounds extremely high.

Also note that both Hamas and Hezbollah have condemned the attacks on Charlie Hebdo. Those attackers are considered too extreme even by people widely considered terrorists.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
besson3c
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It's estimated that up to 25% of Muslims are "radicialized. Out of 1.2 billion, that's hundreds of millions.
Please, that is complete and utter bullshit, and defies all common sense, unless your definition of radicalized is completely skewed. Don't be a moron too.
     
besson3c
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Oh, that pesky numbers thing again.

But, realizing THAT would require actually thinking, not just emoting and relating fictional stereotypes.
You are still a moron.
     
BadKosh  (op)
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:56 AM
 
Mommie needs to change your diaper.

When you display actual common sense , we'll make a new thread.
Your personal opinion that you have common sense should be a red flag.
     
Chongo
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:58 AM
 
I can only go based on what I have seen on the news channels. These numbers are supposed to come from US and other countries inteligence services. If it's only 10%, that's over 100 million.
     
besson3c
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Jan 12, 2015, 10:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Source for that? Because that sounds extremely high.
Somebody's ass. What's sad is that both Chongo and BadKosh fail to see the logical failure in embracing these numbers. Again, if this were true we'd be living in WW III, these violent outbreaks would be virtually daily occurrences.

Beyond this, there still isn't any positive actionable outcome to this even if we all agree with these silly numbers.

Also note that both Hamas and Hezbollah have condemned the attacks on Charlie Hebdo. Those attackers are considered too extreme even by people widely considered terrorists.
There have been tons of other condemnations as well, hence my last comment.
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The extremists? Sure.

There is no way that every adherent is taught to hate, subjugate, and destroy at birth. This is something that is picked up as fanaticism is ratcheted up. If this wasn't so, if a third of the world's population was into this kind of hate we'd be living in WW III right now.
Extremism is the new norm within most ME countries themselves, as more become attracted to the romanticized hype of the "Great and Glorious Nation of Islam", and the concept that they can be part of something greater than themselves (sound familiar?). I think ~20% is pretty accurate, with another 30% who are sympathetic to that cause, though may not want to be (or don't have the "courage" to be) as violent themselves. Most Muslims we see in the Western world aren't in that 50%, though a growing number are. So while we feel there's a cushion between us and the more radical elements, that will disappear within the next decade and we (the USA, Canada, the EU, and many Asian countries) will be forced to deal with them head-on.

This will be the next world war, not China and/or Russia as some believe, as soon as one person within Islam gains enough power to rally them together. It's inevitable.
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:25 AM
 
"WW III" started on November 4 1979.
     
besson3c
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Mommie needs to change your diaper.

When you display actual common sense , we'll make a new thread.
Your personal opinion that you have common sense should be a red flag.
I'm calling you a moron because intellectual appeals do not seem to work with you, and saying that we should bury mosques in garbage is not only stupid, but offensive, and at least borderline hate speech.

So, you continue to be a moron.
     
besson3c
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
"WW III" started on November 4 1979.
If we are living in WW III right now, it is a pretty weak sauce war compared to the other WWs. Nobody else seems to be calling it that either, I don't think you can just invent wars.
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm calling you a moron because intellectual appeals do not seem to work with you, and saying that we should bury mosques in garbage is not only stupid, but offensive, and at least borderline hate speech.

So, you continue to be a moron.
The delusional assumption that you have offered "intellectual appeals/ideas" is a big problem for you. Again, that "Liberal Filter" where so much of what you assume to be true is actually your fictional stereotypes, fictional/strawman arguements and typical wrong headed liberal BS gets in the way of your point making ability. Do you even read your posts?

You also need to get a grip on what real hate speech is.
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:00 PM
 
Well this thread went to sh*t rather quickly. I mean if one is going to toss around a figure to support one's argument at least ATTEMPT to substantiate it with a citation. That would only only be good form. Just saying ...

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jan 12, 2015 at 03:39 PM. )
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:04 PM
 
So... why didn't the US send anyone to the march?
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You are still a moron.
Taking debating lessons from OAW, I see. This whole nonsense of baiting people with personal attacks has to stop.
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:14 PM
 
Baiting?
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So... why didn't the US send anyone to the march?
That's a very good question.
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's a very good question.
Doubly so because Obama is supposed to be sensitive to our world image.

Triply so because, you know, we went through 9/11 so we know a thing or two about islamic terrorism. And I believe the world stood by us then.

I'm kinda angry about it.
     
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's a very good question.
My spidey sense tells me that the US is indifferent to other country's suffering particularly if it may or may not upset people we're doing business with and/or trying to kill.
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Baiting?
Personal attacks used to cause someone else to blow-up/lose their temper, there's never a good reason to simply resort to name-calling. It's becoming an all-too-common tactic around here when people lose their cool (or want to get another person into trouble).
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
My spidey sense tells me that the US is indifferent to other country's suffering particularly if it may or may not upset people we're doing business with and/or trying to kill.
Ding, ding, ding! It's all about self-interest.
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osiris
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:24 PM
 
Yes. Painfully and obviously so. or is it painfully obviously... i forget.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm calling you a moron because intellectual appeals do not seem to work with you, and saying that we should bury mosques in garbage is not only stupid, but offensive, and at least borderline hate speech.

So, you continue to be a moron.
Depends on the mosque. If they're condoning these attacks they deserve to be buried in soiled diapers and filth, at the very least.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:25 PM
 
I think you're giving besson more credit than he deserves.

Originally Posted by osiris View Post
My spidey sense tells me that the US is indifferent to other country's suffering particularly if it may or may not upset people we're doing business with and/or trying to kill.
$5 says almost any country you would name sent someone to France. It was kind of staggering. If it had been much more sporadic, I wouldn't be as upset.
     
 
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