Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Mac Zealot · Jun 20, 2003, 08:48 PM

In September, it will have been 2 years since I bought my mac, exclusively for the use of OS X.

To this date, I am dissapointed with apple, why?

It's been almost 2 years and some of the primary programs (ichat, safari, etc) are STILL beta, they crash like crazy, sometimes refuse to respond, have memory problems, etc.

After a few weeks my "snappy" computer becomes a nightmare that lagbombs every week, same with my oldest brother's imac and my friend's g4 (and HE has 1gb ram!!!)

iPhoto is a steaming piece of crap, iMovie has waaay too many bugs, not to mention the OS takes forever to start up (up to 20 mins at that damn apple screen) and even longer to shut down.

WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH APPLE? If this happens on 3 different computers I'm reluctant to believe it's a hardware problem, but shoddy programing.

Sure my PCs required nuke and repaves every 3000 minutes, but it seems like my G4 does too nowadays, not to mention the updates every week and such.

It seems like Animal Farm, suddenly the only argument is "well at least it's not microsoft"

The only 3 things keeping me using the OS are it's great UI, it's unix underlaying, and the fact I can serve and play games at the same time.

But I get these lag bombs daily it seems and they last as long as 5 minutes. Sheesh!

karbon · Jun 20, 2003, 09:04 PM

No computer is perfect. Go buy a PC if you feel so miserable. Nobody's forcing you to use a Mac!

I myself love OS X. I think iChat and Safari are great applications. iMovie 3 and iPhoto 2 are slow, I agree, but they are still incredible apps! There's nothing like this for Windows...

cpac · Jun 20, 2003, 09:06 PM

somebody's having a tough day...

iChat - this has only been out since Jaguar - not quite a year yet.

Safari - this has been out even less time, and it's not like there aren't plenty of alternatives out there (OW, Camino, IE, etc.)

iPhoto - if you don't like it, don't use it. Use image capture and the finder and your favorite editing utility

What are you machine specs? I don't get "lag bombs" at all (unless using M$ software) - it might be that you don't have enough RAM or something, or that the machine you bought 2 years ago is just showing it's age or both (my TiBook 500 - top of the line when I bought it, definitely needs help, but still does pretty well with everything).

I, for one, am ecstatic about all the massive improvements I've seen since 10.0 and even with jaguar. Far from being disappointed, I'm excited: it's good now, but it's only going to get better! - We'll all know what's in store with Panther on Monday...

Guy Incognito 2 · Jun 20, 2003, 09:18 PM

Something's wrong with your machines.

DVD Plaza · Jun 20, 2003, 09:33 PM

Surely 20 minutes to startup tells you there is something wrong with your machine(s), given everyone else takes 1 minute.

Worst. Episode. Ever. · Jun 20, 2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Something's wrong with your machines.

Me thinks something's wrong with the operator.

MacGorilla · Jun 20, 2003, 09:49 PM

Yepper, want some cheese with that wine, bud?

Alex Duffield · Jun 20, 2003, 09:54 PM

What do all these systems have in common.???

Does the same person use all of them?? Does that person hack things??

I run a company with 30 + systems all running OSX, everything from Rev b imacs and B&W G3, eMacs, and new 1GHz G4s.

I have very little problems, and am able to maintain all these systems single handedly.

I would guess you have very little ram in your computers, and or have a bunch of system hacks running.

Try making sure you have more than 256 meg of ram minimum and do a totaly clean install of OSX. Dont change themes, or install any hacks.

Give it I try.

DBvader · Jun 20, 2003, 10:03 PM

boot of the OSX cd, and fix youre permissions and repair your hard disk.

that should fix a lot of your problems, especially the start up time...

i have a dual 867, and while its not as snappy as my Athlon, i like it much more than my PC.

hudson1 · Jun 20, 2003, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
In September, it will have been 2 years since I bought my mac, exclusively for the use of OS X.

To this date, I am dissapointed with apple, why?

It's been almost 2 years and some of the primary programs (ichat, safari, etc) are STILL beta, they crash like crazy, sometimes refuse to respond, have memory problems, etc.

After a few weeks my "snappy" computer becomes a nightmare that lagbombs every week, same with my oldest brother's imac and my friend's g4 (and HE has 1gb ram!!!)

iPhoto is a steaming piece of crap, iMovie has waaay too many bugs, not to mention the OS takes forever to start up (up to 20 mins at that damn apple screen) and even longer to shut down.

WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH APPLE? If this happens on 3 different computers I'm reluctant to believe it's a hardware problem, but shoddy programing.

Sure my PCs required nuke and repaves every 3000 minutes, but it seems like my G4 does too nowadays, not to mention the updates every week and such.

It seems like Animal Farm, suddenly the only argument is "well at least it's not microsoft"

The only 3 things keeping me using the OS are it's great UI, it's unix underlaying, and the fact I can serve and play games at the same time.

But I get these lag bombs daily it seems and they last as long as 5 minutes. Sheesh!

Well, I guess you have me baffled. You've had time to make 3629 posts on this message board so I have to assume that you've also had plenty of time to work on your severe Mac problems. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that you wouldn't find anyone around here who would claim to have a machine that's in similarly and chronically desperate shape, at least as you've described the symptoms. Seriously, what have you actually done as an attempt to restore your Mac to some sense of normalcy?

off/lang · Jun 20, 2003, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
some of the primary programs (ichat, safari, etc) are STILL beta

Hate to break it to you my friend, but Safari *is* still in beta.

Mac Zealot · Jun 20, 2003, 11:12 PM

You people certaintly do look on the bright side I bid you that

Ghoser777 · Jun 20, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
You people certaintly do look on the bright side I bid you that

Well, considering none of use have the same symptoms (20 minute startup? I'd be curious what it hangs on if you try to boot in verbose mode i.e. apple-v), there's not much we can say.

What exactly have you installed on your sysems? Do you have APE (Window Shade, other haxies from Unsanity) installed? Do you see a pattern of any kind i.e. I open Microsoft Word and then it lag-bombs.

I really can't compare my expierence at all to yours. Plus, there are great alternatives to iChat (AIM, Adium, and Fire), iPhoto (Image Capture and Graphics Converter), and the not publically released version of Safari (Camino, OmniWeb, iCab, Internet Explorer, Firebird Mozilla, Opera, etc).

Matt Fahrenbacher

mitchell_pgh · Jun 20, 2003, 11:45 PM

I feel like there are some legitimate reasons to complain, but the few that you have given are rather poor or unique to your systems.

I find that the Finder has become more and more of an issue. I have been finding that once a day or so... the think just crapps out... I simply relaunch it, but my girlfriend doesn't know how to do that... so it's an issue.

Photoshop is a bit slow. Granted, I have a G4 733 system. The speed difference from OS 9 to OS X is rather noticeable. If I hadn't fallen in love with 1) the general setup of OS X and 2) the advanced operating system, I would have probably stuck with OS 9 for a while longer...

Regarding the beta software... deal with it... I'll start listening to your complaints when it's version 1.0

iCal, iMovie, iChat... OK, they can leave something to be desired by advanced users, but have you used Windows or Linux lately? There are alternative to iChat... I like how it works and think Apple did a good job... sure there is room for improvement, but name an app that's 100% and I'll call you a lier. iMovie 3 is slower then v.2, but I think it's a great application for FREE... I would like to see an Panther update to many of the iApps, but who knows...

Your boot issue seems to be very specific you your computers... I have a G3 233 tower that boots in under 2 mins. so don't blame the OS.

Regardless, we could have stayed with OS 9 and it's speed, but our OS would be dead now. We need OS X and I'm willing to hold out for a few more years until they get this OS 100%, and I think we are getting closer every day. Panther promises to get us a little closer.

Once I went OS X, I couldn't go back...

snerdini · Jun 20, 2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
In September, it will have been 2 years since I bought my mac, exclusively for the use of OS X.

To this date, I am dissapointed with apple, why?

It's been almost 2 years and some of the primary programs (ichat, safari, etc) are STILL beta, they crash like crazy, sometimes refuse to respond, have memory problems, etc.

After a few weeks my "snappy" computer becomes a nightmare that lagbombs every week, same with my oldest brother's imac and my friend's g4 (and HE has 1gb ram!!!)

iPhoto is a steaming piece of crap, iMovie has waaay too many bugs, not to mention the OS takes forever to start up (up to 20 mins at that damn apple screen) and even longer to shut down.

WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH APPLE? If this happens on 3 different computers I'm reluctant to believe it's a hardware problem, but shoddy programing.

Sure my PCs required nuke and repaves every 3000 minutes, but it seems like my G4 does too nowadays, not to mention the updates every week and such.

It seems like Animal Farm, suddenly the only argument is "well at least it's not microsoft"

The only 3 things keeping me using the OS are it's great UI, it's unix underlaying, and the fact I can serve and play games at the same time.

But I get these lag bombs daily it seems and they last as long as 5 minutes. Sheesh!

Yes, OS X is far from perfect, but this thread gets a

zachs · Jun 21, 2003, 12:50 AM

It's been almost 2 years and some of the primary programs (ichat, safari, etc) are STILL beta, they crash like crazy, sometimes refuse to respond, have memory problems, etc.

iChat still has far to go feature-wise. But overall it's pretty stable for me.
Safari sometimes freezes when I launch the application (I get the spinning beachball).

After a few weeks my "snappy" computer becomes a nightmare that lagbombs every week, same with my oldest brother's imac and my friend's g4 (and HE has 1gb ram!!!)

I get lagbombs all the time, especially when running "big" apps such as Dreamweaver or Photoshop. (I can't leave them open...the whole computer slows down.) I have 384 MB of RAM, and I've tried using my friend's 512 MB RAM stick for a few weeks...same thing. Also, sometimes when I quit an app, I'll get the "jerky mouse" for about 5-10 seconds.

iPhoto is a steaming piece of crap, iMovie has waaay too many bugs, not to mention the OS takes forever to start up (up to 20 mins at that damn apple screen) and even longer to shut down.

I have about 200 photos and iPhoto is still slow - try resizing the window, that sucks and I wish you could turn off live resize.

Don't get me started on iCal...that's just a poor job and probably the worst iApp.

iMovie 3 just made things worse. It's slow and unresponsive, and I have even reinstalled iMovie 2 because it's just plain responsive.

In terms of the OS startup speed...forget it. I spend 15-20 minutes at the Apple screen. And that's without a force-restart. After several HD initializations and many clean installs, it's still the same - even zeroing all data doesn't change it.

WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH APPLE? If this happens on 3 different computers I'm reluctant to believe it's a hardware problem, but shoddy programing.

I constantly think that it's a matter of bad programming. Every time I get that stupid beach ball I wanna throw the computer out the window because it happens so often - in Apple's applications mind you. Accessing my iDisk takes forever - it's faster on Windows XP.

::maroma:: · Jun 21, 2003, 01:14 AM

I stopped reading when I read the part about it being 2 years with programs like Safari and iChat. I got news for you, they haven't been around for 2 years. But seriously, there is obviously something seriously wrong with your computing situation. I can assure you that you are in the extreme mintority here.

You have the right to be disappointed I guess, it's your life. But the problems you list are so extreme that you must know that this isn't the norm. Do you know how to troubleshoot? Have you tried to troubleshoot your problems? If so, what have you done?

This post was pretty useless, in that it was just a rant with no hope for anything constructive to come from it. I suggest that if you want to continue to be a "Mac Zealot" and use your Mac, you start either properly troubleshooting your problems, or start asking for help here. These kinds of posts don't help your situation any.

DaGuy · Jun 21, 2003, 01:29 AM

Dude you got some problems with your box or something unusual is going on.

I run all those apps (that are crashing and messing your life up) every day and I have absolutely no complaints. An occassional crash yes but nothing out of the ordinary.

I have two boxes. An iMac 233 and an iMac 17". They both run those apps quite decently -one a bit faster than the other, of course.

Get some diagnostic software and find what's going on.

Mac Zealot · Jun 21, 2003, 01:46 AM

k a reinstall + fixing houndreds of thousands of permissions did the trick ^_^

The thread really did need a

I just need to do the same on my bro's imac now. Funny thing is neither computer had any h4x0r things running.

jcb9 · Jun 21, 2003, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
It's been almost 2 years and some of the primary programs (ichat, safari, etc) are STILL beta, they crash like crazy, sometimes refuse to respond, have memory problems, etc.

Aside from the fact that neither iChat and Safai have been out for anything close to two years, I have to say that I don't have these problems at all. I don't use iChat (I prefer Adium), but when I have, I don't think it ever crashed. Safari never crashes for me, except for when I'm running one particular Java applet, and that's unstable on all the browsers I've tried.

After a few weeks my "snappy" computer becomes a nightmare that lagbombs every week, same with my oldest brother's imac and my friend's g4 (and HE has 1gb ram!!!)

Funny, because I have a clamshell iBook - 300 MHz G3 - pretty close to the bottom end of OS X supported machines, and I don't get "lag bombs" like you describe. Occasionally everything will grind to a halt, but not regularly.

iPhoto is a steaming piece of crap, iMovie has waaay too many bugs, not to mention the OS takes forever to start up (up to 20 mins at that damn apple screen) and even longer to shut down.

Again, that's funny - with my three year iBook, startup takes about 1/4 that time. Shut down doesn't take more than a few seconds. Err, I don't think it does, anyway. I never shut down. But when I do have to reboot, it's very, very quick.

iPhoto can be slow, yes, but speed alone doesn't make or break an app for me. I use iPhoto quite a bit, and quite like it. I'm sure I'll like it a lot more when I get a new Powerbook and it's (hopefully) a good bit faster.

Sure my PCs required nuke and repaves every 3000 minutes, but it seems like my G4 does too nowadays, not to mention the updates every week and such.

I've had my iBook for three years - my fiancee has had an iMac and an iBook for, oh, about two years now. So, five years combined for three computers. In that time, there's been one nuke-and-pave total.

In summary, it sounds like you either (a) are vastly exaggerating your problems because you're frustrated with something (b) have something seriously wrong with your machine or (c) need some cheese with your whine.

mrtew · Jun 21, 2003, 12:51 PM

I have had three TiBooks running OSX (cronic updater) and they've all been fine. I don't have crashes, I don't have slow this and that, I don't have programs quitting more than once a month, and I certainly don't have 20 minute start up times. And the crazy thing is I apply every single hack I can get my hands on. I am not saying any of this to make you jealous, but to let you know that there is something wrong with your computer(s)... it's not MacOSX. If you find out what it is you will be as happy as me.

IonCable · Jun 21, 2003, 01:03 PM

It's called Carbon Unit Failure. The trouble is this particular system failure will follow you to Windows also. What is a Carbon Unit Failure? The operator.

Isn't funny how everyone that complains about OS X, or any OS as sucking seems to have the delusion that THEY are the foremost expert on that particular system and/or they have not done anything wrong to cause the problem.

I've been a Mac user since the First PPCs, Windows before that, Atari OS, Amiga OS, C64 and nameless others. I don't begin to believe I know everything about any of them. In fact if my computer crashes I first assume I DID SOMETHING WRONG, like put some haxies in or installed an update that I shouldn't have.

just my 2 cents.

tikki · Jun 21, 2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
Something's wrong with your machines.

It must be the little crack lines in his case that are causing all his problems...

MacOS X may not be perfect, but imo it is far better than anything Windows or Linux offer.

RooneyX · Jun 21, 2003, 02:03 PM

iPhoto is quite good for quick automated touch ups, categorising and output.

iMovie doesn't even skip and renders fast in my Powerbook. Needs more video and audio layers.

iChat still needs features, mostly it needs to interface with other IM apps.

Mail is smart and wicked.

iCal needs a marquee tool for selecting multiple items and dragging them from one week to another week.

Safari will be the best browser pretty soon counting all platforms. My internet banking is the only thing I can't do at present.

iDVD is pretty spliffy. I'd like some keyframe animation features for creating motion backgrounds and menus.

tikki · Jun 21, 2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
iChat still needs features, mostly it needs to interface with other IM apps.

Use Proteus or Fire. I don't want iChat bloated with extra code to connect to networks I will never use.

sushiism · Jun 21, 2003, 02:32 PM

firstly ive had my tibook about a year, its lovely and fast to this day, starts up in a minute or under, has uptime of weeks if i dont restart, ive never had a kernel panic, everything runs great, osx is great, ichat isnt beta, safari has been out like a few months or something so i dont know how you can complain about osx in 2 years and claim safari to be a basic program of osx seen as it doesnt even come with it.
Theres something very wrong with your machines, bet you use dodgy hacks or something like that

dfiler · Jun 21, 2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
...
Funny thing is neither computer had any h4x0r things running.

You refering to them as 'h4xOr' makes me believe you were running hacks.

There was definatley something abnormally wrong with your system. I'm sure all of us would hate OS X if it crashed on us that much. Thing is... most of us haven't had a crash this year.

Morenix · Jun 21, 2003, 03:50 PM

i never saw any option to disable effects, to put borders instead shadows, or to turn the mac os x interface less hard to process.

So many macs out there that don't perform like good machines because apple only wants to sell new machines.

970 · Jun 21, 2003, 04:34 PM

"Regardless, we could have stayed with OS 9 and it's speed, but our OS would be dead now"

Cry me a river. I use OS 9 on G3 era machines, and there's nothing lost. OS 9 is still as productive as it ever was. Just because it is not in development doesn't mean it's no longer useful. Its got so much useful software that you could use 9 for the next 5 years without any difficulty.

The speed difference on sub 1 Ghz G4s is so significant that using OS X is a real pain.

Drizzt · Jun 21, 2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Morenix:
i never saw any option to disable effects, to put borders instead shadows, or to turn the mac os x interface less hard to process.

So many macs out there that don't perform like good machines because apple only wants to sell new machines.

I guess the fact that Windows XP doesn't run decently on anything slower than a P3 500 with more than 256MB RAM has nothing to do with selling machines? (How do I know, I've installed more than 40 machines with Windows XP since Feb.)

How about Windows XP has been available through the bought of new machines before you could get a boxed copy? Or that Microsoft allied with PC makers to get the IT-Industry up a bit by selling machines 'because of' Windows XP..

Go away PC Troll..

Morenix · Jun 21, 2003, 05:46 PM

I guess the fact that Windows XP doesn't run decently on anything slower than a P3 500 with more than 256MB RAM has nothing to do with selling machines? (How do I know, I've installed more than 40 machines with Windows XP since Feb.)

How about Windows XP has been available through the bought of new machines before you could get a boxed copy? Or that Microsoft allied with PC makers to get the IT-Industry up a bit by selling machines 'because of' Windows XP..

Go away PC Troll..

You've installed more than 40 virtual pcs with xp since feb.
Go away disturbed.

tikki · Jun 21, 2003, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Morenix:
You've installed more than 40 virtual pcs with xp since feb.
Go away disturbed.

Drizzt · Jun 21, 2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Morenix:
You've installed more than 40 virtual pcs with xp since feb.
Go away disturbed.

No, I'm working for a school board that is currently switching to Windows XP. I worked on the procedure used to standardise the installation, and I 'switched' more than 40 PCs from Windows pre-XP to Windows XP..

sniffer · Jun 21, 2003, 06:56 PM

He. This is funny. The last time I had a reinstall was when I got my copy of jaguar last fall I belive. Is there a way to find when the os got installed? Would have been pretty amazing if it lasts until Panther gets shipped. Mine have plenty of haxies. Even the boot up firmware picture is changed on this little babe (iBook).

Gul Banana · Jun 21, 2003, 07:53 PM

You've said you've fixed the problems, which is good, but... 20 minute startup? What the heck was wrong with that machine? My sawtooth takes 20 seconds, and even my slow-harddrive iBook is under a minute.

stew · Jun 21, 2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by 970:
Cry me a river. I use OS 9 on G3 era machines, and there's nothing lost. OS 9 is still as productive as it ever was. Just because it is not in development doesn't mean it's no longer useful. Its got so much useful software that you could use 9 for the next 5 years without any difficulty.

The speed difference on sub 1 Ghz G4s is so significant that using OS X is a real pain.

So true. Everyone's so excited suddenly about drop shadows and Unix buzzwords while forgetting what made Macs good computers before 10.1. There's still a lot of software I use that is OS 9 only, it feels significantly faster than X and I have scanner drivers, Windowshade, labels, customizable colors and Finder fonts without having to wait for future releases or installing 3rd party hacks.

ReggieX · Jun 21, 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by zachs:
I get lagbombs all the time, especially when running "big" apps such as Dreamweaver or Photoshop. (I can't leave them open...the whole computer slows down.) I have 384 MB of RAM, and I've tried using my friend's 512 MB RAM stick for a few weeks...same thing. Also, sometimes when I quit an app, I'll get the "jerky mouse" for about 5-10 seconds.

That's the VM swapping out. Ever since I moved my swap to my normal "scratch" SCSI disk, I can hear it writing out.

In terms of the OS startup speed...forget it. I spend 15-20 minutes at the Apple screen. And that's without a force-restart. After several HD initializations and many clean installs, it's still the same - even zeroing all data doesn't change it.

Dude, there's something seriously wrong wth your machine if you're seeing the Apple screen for more than a minute or two. At that point the system is running fsck on the boot disk. Having it run that long indicates some serious errors on your boot drive.

Boot from the installed CD, run Disk Utility on it, then restart from your boot drive while holding down the shift key to go into "Safe Boot" mode. Then run Disk Utility to Repair Permissions on your boot drive.

gorgonzola · Jun 22, 2003, 01:19 AM

thread isn't going anywhere. some people are saying, "your machines are highly abnormal" and others are saying it's not the case. no point continuing a "yes it is" / "no it isn't" argument.