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Google I/O 2015 (Page 3)
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starman
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Jun 3, 2015, 01:59 PM
 
Well, do you think the government chose 1000 random people?

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OreoCookie
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Jun 3, 2015, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
My current fear with Apple isn't that they're "as evil as Google." All large companies are subjectively evil to a certain extent. My fear with Apple is how serious and self-important they've become.

Remember when they were the upstarts and renegades? They took chances. They had quirky little ads. Their products made people smile. They were orchestrating a revolution.

Today, they're releasing overly-serious ads that resonate with no one, and Google is opening their keynotes with giant games of Pong and ads that are better than anything I've seen from Apple in years.

This isn't an advertisement contest, but Google's is definitely starting to resonate with me more than Apple's. Not everyone will feel the same way, but I know of many long-time Apple users who are tired of rolling their eyes at the crazy prices and inflated egos.
I see things a bit differently: instead of marketing, I think what is more important what actually motivates companies to do what they do — and building a good product they're proud of does not necessarily have to interfere with the company making a tidy profit. I don't give a rodent's rear end whether one company opens keynotes in a better way. I appreciate companies who do good work, and whose values and goals align more closely with mine. And I really have the opposite reaction towards Google than you do: I don't agree with their stance on privacy and found it incredibly sad when it became clear that they'll stick to an ad revenue based business model. It is in their business interest to ingest all your data and use it for their benefit. Just a few days ago, I was interested in what Google charges for Drive storage, and had to sign in to even just look at the support page — I don't like that.

I don't think Apple has changed much, and I find the complaint that the feeling among some users is that Apple charges more to be quite strange: I'm paying less and less for my computers over the years. Apple is still decidedly in the premium camp and is very stingy at times (e. g. you have to pay $80 for a USB-C dongle, pay extra for all sorts of adapters and the iCloud storage pricing tiers are on the expensive side). Apple in this regard isn't too different from, say, Porsche here.
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starman
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Jun 3, 2015, 02:39 PM
 
What attracted me to Apple years ago was the fact that it was the only company that wanted to be different than the beige crap that was coming out in the late 80s. They had a different look and a different attitude.

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Jun 3, 2015, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
And since we don't know the circumstances, let's just assume the worst, right?
With the Feds? Absolutely. Yeah, I think Tim Cook will omit or lie if it serves him, or Apple. Being the CEO of the wealthiest company in the world, it won't be the last time, either.
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Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 3, 2015, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
And since we don't know the circumstances, let's just assume the worst, right?
............yes!

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Considering the governments track record? Yes.
This.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
With the Feds? Absolutely. Yeah, I think Tim Cook will omit or lie if it serves him, or Apple. Being the CEO of the wealthiest company in the world, it won't be the last time, either.
And this.

As congenial as Tim Cook appears, he's responsible to a load of shareholders and powerful rich people. The bottom line is the dollar, no matter how many times he blasts those focused on ROI in quarterly calls, and that only concerned a social issue with which he happened to agree.

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Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 3, 2015, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
What attracted me to Apple years ago was the fact that it was the only company that wanted to be different than the beige crap that was coming out in the late 80s. They had a different look and a different attitude.
There's a danger in relying on any of these companies to help establish or reaffirm a sense of identity — they're mostly interested in your identity mirroring their own so that you continue to empty your wallet into their own accounts. For all the talk of a revolution, they still consist of a company hiring employees who wouldn't be doing that job without the money.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 3, 2015, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I see things a bit differently: instead of marketing, I think what is more important what actually motivates companies to do what they do — and building a good product they're proud of does not necessarily have to interfere with the company making a tidy profit. I don't give a rodent's rear end whether one company opens keynotes in a better way. I appreciate companies who do good work, and whose values and goals align more closely with mine. And I really have the opposite reaction towards Google than you do: I don't agree with their stance on privacy and found it incredibly sad when it became clear that they'll stick to an ad revenue based business model. It is in their business interest to ingest all your data and use it for their benefit. Just a few days ago, I was interested in what Google charges for Drive storage, and had to sign in to even just look at the support page — I don't like that.
That's absolutely okay. The fact that Google stores so much information on us is definitely creepy, but I don't believe they'd relinquish what data they do have any faster than Apple, which is the primary point I'm making.

I also believe the work Google is doing, while often walking a very fine line, is actually getting better and better. I also believe the "intersection of liberal arts and technology" approach that Steve Jobs pushed has gradually shifted from a reality into a hollow campaign that isn't quite as true as they believe it to be.

I don't think Apple has changed much...
While I disagree with you, I know you're not alone in that line of thinking. To me, they've just felt different. I can't always quantify that feeling, but it's there.
     
starman
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Jun 3, 2015, 06:35 PM
 
You guys are all paranoid.

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Laminar
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Jun 3, 2015, 07:16 PM
 
No response to the "What can't OS X do?" replies you got?
     
starman
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Jun 3, 2015, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No response to the "What can't OS X do?" replies you got?
I though we covered that already. Just because devs don't do something doesn't mean the OS/device is incapable of it.

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Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 3, 2015, 08:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
You guys are all paranoid.
I'll accept that.

     
OreoCookie
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
That's absolutely okay. The fact that Google stores so much information on us is definitely creepy, but I don't believe they'd relinquish what data they do have any faster than Apple, which is the primary point I'm making.
It's not about relinquishing data (which, say, for law enforcement purposes can be entirely legitimate and justified), but about using the data for their business: Their primary business is based on analyzing the data they aggregate (in 2014 literally 89.5 % came from ad revenue). Google is milking the data as best as they can whereas Apple has no revenue stream associated to that. In addition, if you listen to what the upper echelon of Google is thinking about the future of privacy and data, it's downright creepy and scary (to me).
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I also believe the work Google is doing, while often walking a very fine line, is actually getting better and better.
Why do you think so? Search results get polluted more and more with ads, I need to login to do tasks where I definitely do not need to be logged in (e. g. to ask Google to index a new website or look up pricing information), and the way they tried to push Google+. Plus, thinking of services like their RSS reader, they came in, killed the paid market and then abandoned the product. About 10, 15 years ago they really had a better feel to it, like a research project that somehow made it into the wild (which it was).

I understand a lot of the dissatisfaction with Apple, there are quite a few legitimate points of criticism. But I think Google has fared even worse, even though I know not everybody minds (and that's ok).
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I also believe the "intersection of liberal arts and technology" approach that Steve Jobs pushed has gradually shifted from a reality into a hollow campaign that isn't quite as true as they believe it to be.
I'm not quite sure why you think so, I mean just have a look at the Apple Watch which is a computer that is also a fashion item (or equivalently, a piece of design) — and in view of the competition that combination is quite unique. But I'm genuinely curious: where do you think Apple has deviated from its path here?
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besson3c
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I though we covered that already. Just because devs don't do something doesn't mean the OS/device is incapable of it.
So then what won't Linux do?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I though we covered that already. Just because devs don't do something doesn't mean the OS/device is incapable of it.
Isn't this like saying that just because my KIA doesn't do 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, it doesn't mean it's incapable of doing so? The engineers just haven't done it yet.
     
starman
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So then what won't Linux do?
Linux has a long history of a lack of official, proper drivers for hardware.

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starman
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Isn't this like saying that just because my KIA doesn't do 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, it doesn't mean it's incapable of doing so? The engineers just haven't done it yet.
Um, no. You're missing the point.

Your engine is set in stone. Saying "Macs don't HAVE games" isn't the same as saying "Macs CAN'T do games".

Case in point: FF XIV is coming to the Mac next expansion.

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starman
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:53 AM
 
I find it hilarious that people don't understand the Google revenue model. They have hardly anything physical, yet make all this money. Where do you think it all comes from?

Hint: YOU.

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The Final Dakar
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Jun 4, 2015, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Your engine is set in stone. Saying "Macs don't HAVE games" isn't the same as saying "Macs CAN'T do games".
My engine and my car are two different features. My car can indeed be changed (software-wise, too!). (engines are not set in stone, either).


Originally Posted by starman View Post
Case in point: FF XIV is coming to the Mac next expansion.
The game launched on September 22, 2010.
Getting a game five years late isn't exactly winning any contests. The opposite, actually.
     
starman
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Jun 4, 2015, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
My engine and my car are two different features. My car can indeed be changed (software-wise, too!). (engines are not set in stone, either).




Getting a game five years late isn't exactly winning any contests. The opposite, actually.
Oh really? Apparently they think the opposite or else they wouldn't have put engineering time into it.

Maybe that's why they make the big bucks and you don't?

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The Final Dakar
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Jun 4, 2015, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Oh really?
Yes, really. What 'contests' did getting the game 5 years late win?

Originally Posted by starman View Post
Apparently they think the opposite or else they wouldn't have put engineering time into it.
And this helps all those Mac enthusiasts who were interested in FF XVI in 2010 because they only had to wait five years for their device to be 'capable' of it. Laughably, they probably replaced whatever hardware they had back in 2010. They could have bought a PC since then to play it and gotten it sooner. But that's not a problem, right?

Originally Posted by starman View Post
Maybe that's why they make the big bucks and you don't?
You love your appeal to authority arguments.
     
starman
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Jun 4, 2015, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yes, really. What 'contests' did getting the game 5 years late win?
Why does it have to be a contest?

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And this helps all those Mac enthusiasts who were interested in FF XVI in 2010 because they only had to wait five years for their device to be 'capable' of it. Laughably, they probably replaced whatever hardware they had back in 2010. They could have bought a PC since then to play it and gotten it sooner. But that's not a problem, right?
You think very one-dimensionally. Why did these people have to wait at all? If they wanted the game that badly they could have played it on their PS3 or PS4. Square-Enix felt that there's money to be made on the Mac platform. It's as simple as that. As for hardware, WoW, Guild Wars 2, and other games have run just fine on the Mac for years. Your argument is beyond confusing since you should be smart enough to realize all that. Or, you just want to argue.

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The Final Dakar
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Jun 4, 2015, 12:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Why does it have to be a contest?
I don't consider it a contest in the strict sense, but if you're trying to satisfy the customer a 5 year delay for a game is a complete failure.


Originally Posted by starman View Post
You think very one-dimensionally. Why did these people have to wait at all?
Because they couldn't play the game on their chosen platform.

Originally Posted by starman View Post
If they wanted the game that badly they could have played it on their PS3 or PS4.
Right. That's an argument against the Mac as a game platform. I might be able to take my girlfriend to see Pitch Perfect 2, but if I don't hint that it might happen five years down the line, no one will blame her if she looks into a boyfriend who better suits her needs and wants instead.


Originally Posted by starman View Post
Square-Enix felt that there's money to be made on the Mac platform. It's as simple as that.
I missed what this point is supposed to be about in relation to the discussion. Clarify, pls


Originally Posted by starman View Post
As for hardware, WoW, Guild Wars 2, and other games have run just fine on the Mac for years.
I don't recall making a hardware argument. I made a consumer upgrade cycle argument – that is the wait for a game to come to mac was so long the average consumer likely moved onto new hardware – opening the door to just getting a PC and eliminating the fuss and muss because delays (and uncertainty) suck.


Originally Posted by starman View Post
Your argument is beyond confusing since you should be smart enough to realize all that. Or, you just want to argue.
It's not, you just didn't get my point. It's ok. I may not have stated it clearly enough.
     
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Jun 4, 2015, 05:39 PM
 
If iMacs had respectable gfx cards I'd own a new one right now.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 4, 2015, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It's not about relinquishing data (which, say, for law enforcement purposes can be entirely legitimate and justified), but about using the data for their business: Their primary business is based on analyzing the data they aggregate (in 2014 literally 89.5 % came from ad revenue). Google is milking the data as best as they can whereas Apple has no revenue stream associated to that. In addition, if you listen to what the upper echelon of Google is thinking about the future of privacy and data, it's downright creepy and scary (to me).
I don't care if they use it for business. I'm free to ignore those ads just as easily today as I was before I started uploading my pictures to Google Photos.

The more Google uses data to make ads more relevant, the more they keep these services free. I'm okay with that.

Why do you think so? Search results get polluted more and more with ads, I need to login to do tasks where I definitely do not need to be logged in (e. g. to ask Google to index a new website or look up pricing information), and the way they tried to push Google+. Plus, thinking of services like their RSS reader, they came in, killed the paid market and then abandoned the product. About 10, 15 years ago they really had a better feel to it, like a research project that somehow made it into the wild (which it was).
I'm in complete agreement with you that Google+ being pushed down everyone's throats, especially with YouTube, was ridiculous and tone-deaf on Google's part. No one cared about Google+ then, and they care about it even less today.

I still miss Google Reader too.

I understand a lot of the dissatisfaction with Apple, there are quite a few legitimate points of criticism. But I think Google has fared even worse, even though I know not everybody minds (and that's ok).
I know what Google is doing is creepier.

I just don't like Tim Cook standing up in front of everyone and playing the ethically superior card. If he really cared about ethics and protecting consumers, they wouldn't be trying to kill Spotify's free listening function.

I'm not quite sure why you think so, I mean just have a look at the Apple Watch which is a computer that is also a fashion item (or equivalently, a piece of design) — and in view of the competition that combination is quite unique. But I'm genuinely curious: where do you think Apple has deviated from its path here?
It's mostly a subjective issue, but I've found their products in the past few years to be far less aesthetically compelling, and often just plain lazy. In other words, I find both the "tech" and "liberal arts" aspects of Apple's products to be falling short.

The iPhone 6 and 6 Plus
They were late to the big phone game, stuck with an 8 MP camera sensor, and those horrible stripe/line things on the back are a horrible eyesore, to say nothing of the big camera nub.

Also, why haven't they moved the lens to the center, where it's far less likely to accidentally cover with a finger? This problem is made worse because the dedicated shutter release button is supposed to be the volume-up button, located only a centimeter away from the lens, rendering it useless. Stupid and impractical.

iOS 7 and 8
They think the new design language that Jony developed is amazing, but I find Google's Material Design to be far easier on the eyes, and possibly even more consistent (except for the triangle/circle/square at the bottom). iOS' app icons are ridiculously uneven and inconsistent. At least you can change them on Android.

Staying with that note, Apple sticking with the grid layout on iOS drives me insane. Apple keeps it looking somewhat close to what they want by keeping it, but if you asked users if they'd prefer a little bit more customization, I guarantee you about 90% of them would say, "Absolutely!" I'm stunned by how many Android users swear by their widgets, which will never be a possibility on iOS.

The New MacBook
Great design? Possibly. But at what cost? The elimination of nearly every port and new, flush keyboard drive a little further down the road of "liberal arts," and leave the technology side of things behind. They're not so much at the intersection any longer — they're at a hipster tea shop a mile down the road.

Yes, that analogy was ridiculously stupid.

The only product that I've remained satisfied with is probably Mac OSX. The additions they made in Yosemite were mostly great across the board. No complaints there.

Lastly, the Apple Watch.
Is it pretty? Mostly, albeit rectangular instead of circular, which I'll probably never get over.

Is it prettier than the competition? Maybe. It depends on who you ask. Is it any prettier than the Huawei Watch? Not in my eyes.

Is it inventive from a software perspective? Absolutely not. It's mostly a pretentious, "You should be exercising more!" instead of, "Hey! Let me make your life a bit easier!" That's my biggest problem with 2015 Apple: they're so concerned about pushing pet agendas instead of technology, and it's hampering their products. They're still flying off the shelves, but I'm not sure they're for me anymore.

Again, this is almost entirely subjective and personal. I might even be in the minority in my thinking. I'm okay with admitting that. There are faaaarrrrr smarter and more talented people than me on MacNN. Just throwing my two cents out there.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 4, 2015, 06:56 PM
 
I love you both.

     
besson3c
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Jun 4, 2015, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Linux has a long history of a lack of official, proper drivers for hardware.
So why does OS X get a free pass for not having certain software despite being capable, while Linux doesn't?

The point is lacking software is a thing. What is possible in theory doesn't really mean much. As far as this gaming argument with CTP you have going on, can you please summarize your argument, because I don't think I get it.
     
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Jun 5, 2015, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I love you both.

My little girl loves Angry Birds, we end up playing about an hour of it every night.
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Jun 5, 2015, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Is it inventive from a software perspective? Absolutely not. It's mostly a pretentious, "You should be exercising more!" instead of, "Hey! Let me make your life a bit easier!" That's my biggest problem with 2015 Apple: they're so concerned about pushing pet agendas instead of technology, and it's hampering their products. They're still flying off the shelves, but I'm not sure they're for me anymore.
Not sure I agree with you on that one. The Apple watch is the first smart watch that actually does make my life easier, in a very quiet, unobtrusive way. I am using it far more than I thought I would.

What I like most about it is that it works for me, but without telling the world. A tap to remind me an upcoming meeting, a quick glance tells me who's calling me even though I am nowhere near my phone. My messages and texts are almost exclusively read on my watch, often answered there as well.

It's not perfect yet, by a long stretch, but it's more than a shiny toy.
     
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Jun 5, 2015, 09:56 AM
 
Please, people, keep it on topic.
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Jun 5, 2015, 10:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I don't care if they use it for business. I'm free to ignore those ads just as easily today as I was before I started uploading my pictures to Google Photos.
As long as you are aware of it and ok with it, I completely understand. Many consumers, though, are not. Others seem to deny the obvious (»Apple is doing just the same!«).
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I just don't like Tim Cook standing up in front of everyone and playing the ethically superior card. If he really cared about ethics and protecting consumers, they wouldn't be trying to kill Spotify's free listening function.
Apple has done some things which are also not really in the consumer's interest, and perhaps, also not even in their own interest (e. g. charging overinflated prices for items that should be in the box or being stingy with online storage pricing, feel free to add other things here). But I think these are just facets: in the realm of privacy, sustainability or diversity, I love and support Apple's efforts, and I don't think it's hypocritical if they aren't behaving morally or well in other areas (e. g. their participation in the wage depression scheme).
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
It's mostly a subjective issue, but I've found their products in the past few years to be far less aesthetically compelling, and often just plain lazy. In other words, I find both the "tech" and "liberal arts" aspects of Apple's products to be falling short.
Looking at your list, I think your criticisms can be summarized as saying that (1) aesthetically they are not doing as well as they used to and (2) they make unnecessary compromises (such as skimping out on ports). Personally, even though I agree with almost all of your individual points, I feel this is too microscopic. What I understand as Apple's idea that they see themselves at the intersection of liberal arts and technology is encapsulated quite well in the Apple Watch: they try to computerize areas that have had nothing or little to do with them in the past, and to make that technology more accessible. It's a fashion item, plain and simple, and Apple isn't ashamed of that. And as fashion items go, it's definitely not a necessity, just in the same way that a BMW 5-series is not a necessity (and you may want one anyway).

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is reliability — normal people expect their watches, phones, fridges, etc. to just work. As I see it, part of the reason why Apple devices are perceived to be less reliable (and perception is what matters), is that we now have 1 billion Apple devices in the wild, so even rare problems occur eventually. Hence, it is not surprising that Google has and Apple is expected to focus on reliability in their most recent iterations. Reliability should be more in the focus if Apple wants to be at the intersection of liberal arts and technology.

As far as design goes, I feel iOS 7/8 is a bit too sterile, I like it, I find it functional, but I am not in love with it. I'd feel a lot better if buttons got their outline back. I also don't like the lines on the iPhone 6/6+ (to me the most beautiful iPhone as an objet d'art was definitely the 4S), and I agree that the camera hump is not a good design element.
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Jun 5, 2015, 12:09 PM
 
The camera hump makes the camera possible. The alternative would have been a thicker phone. Many phones make exactly the same compromise, this is a known pain point for Ives, who hates the bump just as much as we do, probably more because it is his baby. As technology progresses, the bump will most likely go - although this is pretty much the definition of a First World Problem.

The Macbook is all about being small and mobile - it's an iPad for people who don't want to use an iPad. If you use it as such, it works just fine. I like mine for the portability, battery life and weight. I use it constantly, at home, in the office when I want to get some writing done away from my desk, showing work to clients. It's not a work station, it's not a production machine, but it has its place.

If the Macbook doesn't work for you, get a Macbook Air or Pro. If none of Apple's offerings float your boat, buy a PC or a Chromebook - we use a few of them at work, they work well for specific tasks. There's choices, people. Choices.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 5, 2015, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The camera hump makes the camera possible. The alternative would have been a thicker phone.
You're right.
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The Macbook is all about being small and mobile - it's an iPad for people who don't want to use an iPad.
I had the same visceral »I want one!« reaction to the new MacBook as I did to the original Air — even though both were machines with significant compromises. Those won't matter nearly as much in later revisions I reckon. I like the new trackpad (I love that I can click »down« anywhere), I think I can live with a single port, but I'm not sure about the keyboard. Probably I'd get used to it the same way I got used to any notebook keyboard (my IBM model M weighs more than my 13" Retina). Nevertheless, I'd prefer to have more than one port. In any case, I don't believe any of this is different compared to 5 or 10 years ago, Apple has always made such products (again, the original Air comes to mind), and I don't see it as an indication that Apple has left the tech/liberal arts intersection.
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Phileas
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Jun 5, 2015, 05:00 PM
 
For the way I work, and I suspect quite a few others, ports aren't needed very often.

Printing? Wireless. Doc storage? In the cloud. Photos? Different cloud, but cloud nonetheless. It's really, really rare that I ever plug anything into any of my Macs these days. The little 12" machine is my note taking, researching, writing machine.

The keyboard does feel a little weird at the beginning, but I got used to it within five minutes.
     
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Jun 5, 2015, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
For the way I work, and I suspect quite a few others, ports aren't needed very often.
I would probably get a dock such as this one (preferably, the Thunderbolt 3 version of it ). I like the idea of just having to connect one cable and be done with it, but I think it's just a case of Apple arriving just a bit earlier than everybody else. I can see that the MacBook shows the future of the notebook just like the first two generations of MacBook Airs did.

Printing? Wireless. Doc storage? In the cloud. Photos? Different cloud, but cloud nonetheless. It's really, really rare that I ever plug anything into any of my Macs these days. The little 12" machine is my note taking, researching, writing machine.
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The keyboard does feel a little weird at the beginning, but I got used to it within five minutes.
Probably you're right. I mean everyone who raves about the feel of current keyboards with scissor keys just has forgotten about the good old times when notebook keyboards worked like regular keyboards (my first PowerBook G3 aka 3500 had a much better keyboard) — and people just got used to it. I do wish, though, that in the Pro line-up they make a version of the new key switches with more travel (although I expect to be disappointed …).

In any case, back on the topic of whether Apple has left the intersection of liberal arts and technology, I don't think these issues (of implementation of good design) are a sign.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
 
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