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The Complete Annihilation of American Liberty (Page 12)
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lpkmckenna
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Apr 25, 2010, 11:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So you think the illegals will somehow turn over a new leaf once a US citizen and not break the laws? The illegals are especially unwelcome for just that reason.
/spits out coffee

Hold on: do you think illegal immigrants are more involved in crime than everyone else? That after long days of picking strawberries for minimum wage and working as nannies for privileged white people, that they are running the gangs and illegal grow-ops and making meth in trailers? 'Cause I got news for you...

Besides, crime stats have been in free fall since the 70s, stop moaning about it.
     
smacintush
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Apr 26, 2010, 01:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why does the "all of the above" approach that you embrace with energy policy not apply here? Why can't you advocate abandoning entitlements while at the same time look at our defense spending which seems quite out-of-hand?
I don't think you know my position on energy policy. The "all of the above" thing you mentioned is a mindless Republican party slogan and has nothing to do with me. Not to mention that my opinion has greatly changed on the matter, as well as on immigration.

Nevertheless, since we are speaking about things that will never happen in the real world, sure we can do it simultaneously. Why not? When I wrote of doing entitlements first I was really just trying illustrate that I believe as a whole entitlements are a far worse problem than defense spending and I don't don't believe we should have them, even if they were cost effective.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
besson3c
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Apr 26, 2010, 01:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I don't think you know my position on energy policy. The "all of the above" thing you mentioned is a mindless Republican party slogan and has nothing to do with me. Not to mention that my opinion has greatly changed on the matter, as well as on immigration.

Nevertheless, since we are speaking about things that will never happen in the real world, sure we can do it simultaneously. Why not? When I wrote of doing entitlements first I was really just trying illustrate that I believe as a whole entitlements are a far worse problem than defense spending and I don't don't believe we should have them, even if they were cost effective.

Well, respectfully first let me apologize for using the term "you" when I should have said "many Republicans". Secondly, let me respectfully say that there are many other discussions and threads where various people have gotten into the notion of ending entitlement programs and all of that. For the purpose of my original question, let's keep it within the scope of defense spending...

Why is it that fiscally minded individuals of all kinds have let us build up such an incredibly wasteful stockpile of more weapons of all sorts than we'll ever possibly need? I mean, what could be more wasteful?

I understand having some defense and weaponry and stuff, but don't we have more weapons than the next 15 countries on the list combined, or something like that? Why was there so much backlash (including from Sarah Palin) about reducing our stockpile of nuclear weapons, for instance, from absolutely insane to a little less insane?

Let's face it, the days of worrying about a country waging war on us are over, this is a zero sum game. What we do have to worry about is rogue states and terrorist organizations getting a hold of these, and a better way to do this would actually be to reduce the weapons that are made so that these aren't stolen/smuggled, and with these sorts of organizations the least of our worries is them having bigger and badder weapons than us.
     
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
/spits out coffee

Hold on: do you think illegal immigrants are more involved in crime than everyone else?
Yes.
     
smacintush
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why is it that fiscally minded individuals of all kinds have let us build up such an incredibly wasteful stockpile of more weapons of all sorts than we'll ever possibly need? I mean, what could be more wasteful?
Wasteful is pretty subjective I think. As I said, I think a tens of trillions in entitlement liabilities are far worse, but that's my opinion.

I think the real answer is the same as why "liberty" minded individuals gave us Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, an oppressive and economcally stifling federal income tax system and likely universal healthcare. It's not about what they tell you it's about. It's about gaining power. One group wants power and control over other countries, the other wants power and control over its citizens.

Let's face it, the days of worrying about a country waging war on us are over, this is a zero sum game.
I agree that these days that seems unlikely, but to say those days are "over" seems To be pretty naive and dangerous thinking.

What we do have to worry about is rogue states and terrorist organizations getting a hold of these, and a better way to do this would actually be to reduce the weapons that are made so that these aren't stolen/smuggled, and with these sorts of organizations the least of our worries is them having bigger and badder weapons than us.
I know you'll disagree, but I think a fairly large military is still necessary if we were to defend ourselves properly even under modern circumstances. I think that for example if we know that the goverment of Iran is is sponsoring and supporting terrorist action against America, we are justified in a full scale war and removal of the goverment. The kind of action that completely demoralizes it's population that they never let a goverment like that in their country again.

Much like we did Japan.

That takes military strength.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
subego
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Apr 26, 2010, 06:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Yes.
You're arguing the letter of his post rather than the spirit.

What he's saying is that the vast majority of people who break immigration laws seek some form of non-criminal employment.

If breaking immigration laws was a good predictor of general criminal behavior, you would find less of the people who break those laws seeking legitimate employment. This is especially true considering the types of employment available are generally low paying and labor intensive.
     
ebuddy
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Apr 26, 2010, 06:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy
With your help, we could fix the party by voting for a black republican this fall.
I would've been more accepting of your revision had it helped you comprehend my post, but since it didn't I took the liberty of reposting.

(Yes, I know that Black Republicans exist, but when the party chairman (who knows a things or two about Black Republicans) basically admits that there is no reason for a Black person to vote Republican, you have to wonder why any blacks bother to run as Republicans.)
Black republican candidates for office most assuredly do exist and one will likely be running in your district. They need white voters too and they'd appreciate your support. Maybe white Democrats would be more apt to vote for a black republican than a black democrat, who knows.

To your link; Steele has been a huge disappointment in his failure to energize the base and garner support around a simple republican message. I thought he would be brilliant for the republican party, but he's just not organized and passionate enough. His statement in your link is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He mentions in one breath how the republican party has abandoned the black community then closes the statement by championing support for the tea party. One message at a time Steele.

meh
ebuddy
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Please be our tour guide on the path to enlightenment, BadKosh.

Also, how do I get my whites whiter?
Clorox. maybe Oxyclean?
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, all of the dudes going on about reducing our deficit... What I'd like to know is if you're willing to look at cutting our defense budget?
Sure. Defense is buying and using the technology to protect us or defend our friends/interests. We don't buy P-51's, or even SR-71a's anymore. Entitlements increase every year and have nothing but a welfare state, corruption of those who have learned to scam it, to show for all those liberal policies.Those in power refuse to clamp down on that corruption. The current bleeding heart libs keep wasting money on unemployment while at the same time regulating the crap out of those who create jobs. The liberal policies have almost ruined us for the future by the spend, spend, spend attitude. They started with FANNIE and FREDDIE and continue today as they try to 'stop' Wall Street, Ruin the health insurance industry while STILL not insuring everybody as they promised. If the legislation were important you would have thought they would have read it first. Now they want to add on some 'fixes' because they find themselves screwed as well.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 12:16 PM
 
dupe
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You're arguing the letter of his post rather than the spirit.

What he's saying is that the vast majority of people who break immigration laws seek some form of non-criminal employment.

If breaking immigration laws was a good predictor of general criminal behavior, you would find less of the people who break those laws seeking legitimate employment. This is especially true considering the types of employment available are generally low paying and labor intensive.
Which is why less illegals were coming back as our economy tanked. The violent thugs are still causing problems. Potheads and human trafficing are funding it.
     
besson3c
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Apr 26, 2010, 12:40 PM
 
So, can we talk about the defense budget without obligatory comments about entitlements? Like I said, there have been many threads for assessing entitlements. I think it's abundantly clear at least to me that conservatives in general are not so crazy about them.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 01:28 PM
 
We don't like ANY tax dollars wasted.. The regulations required to even buy a hammer makes everything cost more. Remember the 800 dollar toilet seats for the C5a? Again, over regulation is whats costing the government so much to operate. Lets talk about our wasteful political leaders. Nanci Pelosi pisses away millions to travel. She doesn't seem to care but again, she's a lib.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Apr 26, 2010, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, can we talk about the defense budget without obligatory comments about entitlements?
This surprises you? Apparently they can't talk about entitlements without you bringing up the defense budget, so... why shouldn't the reverse also be true?
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
/spits out coffee

Hold on: do you think illegal immigrants are more involved in crime than everyone else? That after long days of picking strawberries for minimum wage and working as nannies for privileged white people, that they are running the gangs and illegal grow-ops and making meth in trailers? 'Cause I got news for you...

Besides, crime stats have been in free fall since the 70s, stop moaning about it.
They are paid BELOW minimum wages as illegals.
"privileged white people" you mean because they are successful, and not on welfare?

Why couldn't these wonderful people you refer to get in line to come here legally? The law isn't important to them. They were crappy citizens of their own country, and will be worse here. We don't need more lawbreakers. You go live in AZ and then get back to us about how peaceful things are now.
     
subego
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Apr 26, 2010, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Which is why less illegals were coming back as our economy tanked. The violent thugs are still causing problems. Potheads and human trafficing are funding it.
Is there some percentage of law-abiding (beyond having broken immigration laws) versus criminal wherein this is no longer an important factor in the overall determination of policy?

Aren't there numerous changes in policy which could be effected that would vastly improve that percentage?
     
subego
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Apr 26, 2010, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why couldn't these wonderful people you refer to get in line to come here legally?
Because, at the current rates we allow immigration, they'd be dead of old age by the time we got to their spot in the line.
     
besson3c
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Apr 26, 2010, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
This surprises you? Apparently they can't talk about entitlements without you bringing up the defense budget, so... why shouldn't the reverse also be true?

No surprise, what gave that impression? This was just a request, cause I want to hear more takes on our defense budget.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
No surprise, what gave that impression? This was just a request, cause I want to hear more takes on our defense budget.
You're complaining that people are bringing your off-topic post back on topic. Good luck with that.
     
besson3c
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You're complaining that people are bringing your off-topic post back on topic. Good luck with that.

I'm not complaining, I'm requesting. There is no real topic in this thread, it's all over the place.
     
DrTacoMD
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
You go live in AZ and then get back to us about how peaceful things are now.
I wrote up a long, angry rant based on this point, but I'll restrain myself. The gist: I lived in Arizona for thirteen years before work took me away about a year ago. How long have you lived there?

I'll probably go start up a separate thread for the immigration talk though. This thread's got enough topics going at once already.
Trust me. I'm a Taco.
     
subego
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:46 PM
 
Do it. I'm in.
     
olePigeon
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Apr 26, 2010, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Again, over regulation is whats costing the government so much to operate.
The $800 toilet seat has little to do with regulation, and more to do with antiquated accounting techniques. Regulation keeps the $800 toilet seat from being $1600.

The U.S. government's purchase order process is needlessly complicated and expensive, it needs to be streamlined.

Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Lets talk about our wasteful political leaders. Nanci Pelosi pisses away millions to travel. She doesn't seem to care but again, she's a lib.
They all do that.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
olePigeon
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Apr 26, 2010, 05:04 PM
 
I'm actually for the Arizona bill, but for a different reason. It's a crummy bill and is designed to target latinos. Face it, it is. Illegal asian and white immigrants won't be targeted.

However, it underlines a fundamental problem that isn't going to be fixed. Both Democrats and Republicans are afraid of pissing off their latino voters when it comes to border control and immigration. I think this bill will force the Federal government to reevaluate the states' responsibility as it pertains to immigration; it's a Federal problem, but the states are irrevocably involved.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
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you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
DrTacoMD
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Apr 26, 2010, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do it. I'm in.
Done and done.
Trust me. I'm a Taco.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 26, 2010, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because, at the current rates we allow immigration, they'd be dead of old age by the time we got to their spot in the line.
Boooooo - Hooooooo. Why not stay and fix their own country? Not patriotic about their country, and not law abiding or patriotic here either. Still lawbreakers and illegal invaders no matter how much you ignore it.
     
besson3c
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Apr 26, 2010, 06:18 PM
 
What actionable suggestions do you have for reforming immigration, BadKosh?
     
BadKosh
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Apr 27, 2010, 09:09 AM
 
Lower the number of outsiders who could become citizens. Raise the bar. Make it a law that anyone caught as an illegal can never be a citizen. Remove the anchor baby rule. Make it retroactive to 1985 that If you came here as an illegal you are not a citizen.

I would also put a military barrier around our southern border and shoot to kill as a further incentive to stay home. The citizens of Mexico deserve the government they have. Corruption is a way of life for them. We don't need that culture of lawlessness here. We need just the opposite.

What would you do with illegal invaders, give them all your stuff?
     
SpaceMonkey
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Apr 27, 2010, 09:10 AM
 
BadK0sh spends his weekends sitting on the porch with a loaded shotgun, I suppose.

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BadKosh
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Apr 27, 2010, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
The $800 toilet seat has little to do with regulation, and more to do with antiquated accounting techniques. Regulation keeps the $800 toilet seat from being $1600.

The U.S. government's purchase order process is needlessly complicated and expensive, it needs to be streamlined.



They all do that.
WHO do you think put all those regulations into place? The democrat run congress during the 1960's and 1970's. I worked for Lockheed during the hearings on the cost of stuff for the C5's and We knew first hand who was making things cost more.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Apr 27, 2010, 09:24 AM
 
My understanding is that the $800 toilet seat problem is basically because of unnecessarily detailed technical specifications, not so much accounting issues. There have been efforts by the Pentagon to instruct purchasing agents to basically buy more items "off the shelf."

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
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Apr 27, 2010, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What actionable suggestions do you have for reforming immigration, BadKosh?
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Lower the number of outsiders who could become citizens. Raise the bar. Make it a law that anyone caught as an illegal can never be a citizen. Remove the anchor baby rule. Make it retroactive to 1985 that If you came here as an illegal you are not a citizen.

I would also put a military barrier around our southern border and shoot to kill as a further incentive to stay home. The citizens of Mexico deserve the government they have. Corruption is a way of life for them. We don't need that culture of lawlessness here. We need just the opposite.
What would you do with illegal invaders, give them all your stuff?
Nice little article on this subject
Immigration Reform? Let's Try Mexico's Immigration Law!
in the country legally;
have the means to sustain themselves economically;
not destined to be burdens on society;
of economic and social benefit to society;
of good character and have no criminal records; and
contributors to the general well-being of the nation.
The law also ensures that:

immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;
foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;
foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;
foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;
foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;
those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.
and further down:
Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)
Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)
Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)
The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)
Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)
A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)
A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).
Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)
Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)
Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)
Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.
Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

"A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)
Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)
Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)
Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)
Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)
     
BadKosh
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Apr 27, 2010, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
BadK0sh spends his weekends sitting on the porch with a loaded shotgun, I suppose.
Wrong assumptions. Working on Special effects models and taking care of the house. I don't even have a shot gun. I prefer my 45ACP.
     
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Apr 27, 2010, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Wrong assumptions. Working on Special effects models and taking care of the house. I don't even have a shot gun. I prefer my 45ACP.
Well, jeez, you're not going to be shooting any illegals with that kind of attitude. I mean, if the federal government's not going to step up and the state governments aren't allowed to, then someone has to, right? It's amusing that you decry a "culture of lawlessness" while advocating that state governments violate constitutionally-defined powers.

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
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Apr 27, 2010, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
Originally Posted by ebuddy
With your help, we could fix the party finding a black republican this fall.
Fixed that for ya.


Originally Posted by Dork
(Yes, I know that Black Republicans exist, but when the party chairman (who knows a things or two about Black Republicans) basically admits that there is no reason for a Black person to vote Republican, you have to wonder why any blacks bother to run as Republicans.)
And we have yet another Republican National Committee chairperson admitting that the Southern Strategy pursued by the GOP over the years has alienated black voters. I certainly can't say the man lied .... but I was totally shocked that he was crazy enough to actually say it given the controversy surrounding him now.

Then again, I heard a progressive talk show host the other day suggest that he was crazy like a fox to do so. He basically felt that Steele played the "race card" in a way to make it more difficult for the RNC to fire him.

We shall see ....

OAW
     
ebuddy
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Apr 27, 2010, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because, at the current rates we allow immigration, they'd be dead of old age by the time we got to their spot in the line.
How long does it take?
ebuddy
     
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Apr 27, 2010, 07:05 PM
 
This guy has the Immigration Thing all figured out:

Install microchips in illegal immigrants, GOP candidate says � Iowa Independent

“I think we should catch ’em, we should document ’em, make sure we know where they are and where they are going,” said Pat Bertroche, an Urbandale physician. “I actually support microchipping them. I can microchip my dog so I can find it. Why can’t I microchip an illegal?

“That’s not a popular thing to say, but it’s a lot cheaper than building a fence they can tunnel under,” Bertroche said.
He's actually campaigning on "Why can't we treat illegals more like dogs"! Brilliant!
If he doesn't succeed, I guess the illegals will Annihilate all our Liberty.
     
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Apr 28, 2010, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Well, jeez, you're not going to be shooting any illegals with that kind of attitude. I mean, if the federal government's not going to step up and the state governments aren't allowed to, then someone has to, right? It's amusing that you decry a "culture of lawlessness" while advocating that state governments violate constitutionally-defined powers.
No, I said I had a 45ACP, but that is for home protection. I live in Loudoun County VA, which has had an illegal problem that spilled over from Fairfax County VA. The local constabulary has been cracking down due the to the violent crimes where latino's were the cause. Another thread on immigration will illustrate that states can do something.
     
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Apr 28, 2010, 11:22 AM
 
Nm - gonna post in the appropriate thread.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
besson3c
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Apr 28, 2010, 11:43 AM
 
The whole argument about how illegals commit more crimes (aside from their INS status) is just dumb, cause crime is a great way to fly under the radar!

I can't help thinking that simplifying the INS process would help turn a lot of those illegals into legals.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 28, 2010, 12:28 PM
 
But who'd want a bunch of invading illegal lawbreakers becoming citizens? Why is that such a difficult concept to fathom?

How about close the borders? How about giving the illegals here a month to get out, and the rest caught in the US can never be legal? Finally figure a better way of processing those who want to come here.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Apr 28, 2010, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
But who'd want a bunch of invading illegal lawbreakers becoming citizens?
He said "legal," not citizens. And the answer to who would want that? Pragmatists.

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
besson3c
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Apr 28, 2010, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
But who'd want a bunch of invading illegal lawbreakers becoming citizens? Why is that such a difficult concept to fathom?

How about close the borders? How about giving the illegals here a month to get out, and the rest caught in the US can never be legal? Finally figure a better way of processing those who want to come here.

This was the sort of unactionable answer I expected you to give me in response to my last question to you. You surprised me by not doing so, but now you've flip flopped and are back to pie-in-the-sky ideas.

Either that or this is just my mental problems again.
     
subego
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Apr 28, 2010, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
How long does it take?
I'm not sure, but only 20,000 immigrants are allowed from Mexico per year, and it's on a first-come first-served basis.

Depending on the state of the economy, you have something between 1/4 and 1/2 million people doing it illegally per year.

I'm just doing the math.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 29, 2010, 08:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This was the sort of unactionable answer I expected you to give me in response to my last question to you. You surprised me by not doing so, but now you've flip flopped and are back to pie-in-the-sky ideas.

Either that or this is just my mental problems again.
Actually, it requires a LEADER not some community activist and coward to get this done. The warning to get out is a gift as they could be picked up this second by enforcing the laws on the books. Those protesting illegal teens on their walk should have been grabbed and deported along with their folks as well. laws are to be enforced, and the libs seem to suck at such things. Listen to all the illegals and their activist mouthpieces making it sound like they are not breaking any laws. Ignorance is no excuse. The libs are selective of what laws they will abide by. Just ask Al Sharpton, Jackson etc.
     
ebuddy
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Apr 29, 2010, 09:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not sure, but only 20,000 immigrants are allowed from Mexico per year, and it's on a first-come first-served basis.

Depending on the state of the economy, you have something between 1/4 and 1/2 million people doing it illegally per year.

I'm just doing the math.
I get what you're saying, but I think the average amount of time to become a documented citizen is what... 3 years? There were over a million people naturalized as US citizens in 2008 alone and if a fifth of them are Mexicans, this is more than 200,000 allowed from Mexico per year. To be clear, this is what it is all about. I'm well aware of their work ethic and culture including their strong familial bond and I readily welcome them, but I don't think we ask too much for citizenship in the US. We're all committing chunks of our lives towards greater prosperity and opportunity in this country. When we don't, it doesn't work. IMO the alternatives for residency have set our guests up for failure.

As an aside: I agree with some who've said there isn't near enough focus on the employers of illegal labor, but I also don't think we champion the merits of legal immigration enough.
ebuddy
     
subego
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Apr 29, 2010, 11:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I get what you're saying, but I think the average amount of time to become a documented citizen is what... 3 years? There were over a million people naturalized as US citizens in 2008 alone and if a fifth of them are Mexicans, this is more than 200,000 allowed from Mexico per year. To be clear, this is what it is all about. I'm well aware of their work ethic and culture including their strong familial bond and I readily welcome them, but I don't think we ask too much for citizenship in the US. We're all committing chunks of our lives towards greater prosperity and opportunity in this country. When we don't, it doesn't work. IMO the alternatives for residency have set our guests up for failure.
I'm glad you responded, because I completely misread the (poorly worded) wiki article. The 20,000 cap is on Eastern hemisphere countries, and it's for visas.

Ugh. Totally my bad, and again, thanks for setting that straight.

Now, since I had thought there was a direct immigration cap that was nonsensically low, I didn't really consider the visa issue. Though smaller in scale, you still have an situation where demand far outstrips supply. The cap for the Western hemisphere is 120,000. Even if Mexico was given this entire allotment, you would have a growing population of people who wanted one and would be mathematically restricted from getting it, in perpetuity.

If I understand the way visas work, this ends up being irrelevant, because it's a bit of a stretch to think you can get sponsorship as unskilled labor. These people are up the creek, mathematics or not.

The reason you have numbers in excess of the hemisphere cap for just one country in 2008 are threefold. First, there was a price increase for naturalization in 2007, so a bunch of people applied in '07' but didn't get put through until '08. Second, a bunch of people applied so they could vote in the November election. Third, and most germane to our discussion, only about 15% of those naturalized did so on work visas, the rest were given to people such as relatives, spouses, and those seeking asylum. These aren't included in the cap, but aren't the kinds of status your average illegal immigrant enjoys.
     
smacintush
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Apr 30, 2010, 12:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
But who'd want a bunch of invading illegal lawbreakers becoming citizens? Why is that such a difficult concept to fathom?
Maybe it's because "lawbreaker" does not necessarily mean "bad person".

Sometimes laws are unjust, or unjustified, or they cause people to choose between being a "lawbreaker" and prospering.

I'm not a scofflaw, I rarely even exceed the speed limit. I'm one of those people that sit at the traffic light at two in the morning until it turns green. If my country became like Mexico I wouldn't hesitate to skip to another country. Laws be damned.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
subego
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Apr 30, 2010, 12:59 AM
 
I'm always a little taken aback by those who are just so sure they wouldn't do the same thing if put in their shoes.
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 30, 2010, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
But who'd want a bunch of invading illegal lawbreakers becoming citizens?
Ummmm .... do you have *any* idea of how the USA became independent? Your country was *founded* by a bunch of lawbreakers.
     
 
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