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Jobs is Officially Gone, Apple Slooowws
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freudling
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Jun 12, 2012, 02:08 AM
 
Ok, kill me. I like what I see... and appreciate all of Apple's efforts. Mountain Lion looks decent... and the Retina MacBook Pro looks awesome.

BUT...

iOS looks pretty much the same old. Not much happening there. Yes, Siri on iPad, some nice updates...

But after all of this time... I feel Jobs would have said, "At WWDC we move over to Retina, no looking back." I feel Apple's a bit weak here...

You can say it's manufacturing costs... blah blah.

They should have moved all their rigs over to Retina. Dump the optical drive for good.

Looks to me like they couldn't get it done... not enough battery life for the 13s and other technical challenges probably has held them back. And about the iMacs I have no idea.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 02:42 AM
 
The move over to retina and all-Flash is EXPENSIVE.

The flagship is a generation ahead. This is normal.
Just like almost every other industry (it's been standard practice in high-end audio for decades and decades), you figure out first what *can* be done, regardless of cost, and sell that as the high-end model.

As your sales, experience, and time allow component prices to drop, you successively engineer lower-endish models to fill up the line.

If iOS is ho-hum to you, I give you a Big Fat "Who Cares?"
a) I'm pretty damn happy with iOS 5, and
b) the additions to iOS 6 are pretty major, even if they don't matter to you.


Also, I see no evidence that Apple is "slowing". Quite the contrary. We're seeing two major OS releases developed concurrently. That's a pretty big difference from 2007, when Apple explicitly admitted that Mac OS development would be delayed due to resources being tied up on the iPhone.

These "OMG Steve is gone Apple is toast!" posts are really, really idiotic.
I wish people would shut the **** up.
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2012, 02:59 AM
 
I'd say a key factor in staggering the retina display is to give developers a generation to work with it before it becomes the standard.
     
freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 03:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'd say a key factor in staggering the retina display is to give developers a generation to work with it before it becomes the standard.
Ya, or you just move ahead and make everyone hurry up and catch up.

When they released the iPhone 4 they hit it with Retina. Everyone had to update their Apps. Yes, they had the old one still selling but Apple is about moving forward, and quickly.

When Jobs was around they made big bold moves and antiquated things even just a year old. They didn't care.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 03:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
When they released the iPhone 4 they hit it with Retina. Everyone had to update their Apps. Yes, they had the old one still selling but Apple is about moving forward, and quickly.

When Jobs was around they made big bold moves and antiquated things even just a year old. They didn't care.
Really now?

Here's what ACTUALLY happened:

When they released the iPhone 4 they hit ONE MODEL with Retina, and kept the old one in the line-up. In fact, two years later, they STILL have a non-retina model in the lineup.

Bizarrely, you even wrote pretty much that to cover your bases, but ignored that it completely smashed your own point:
Yes, they had the old one still selling but Apple is about moving forward, and quickly.
Yes, they kept the legacy around but Apple is about dropping legacy, so today it is DOOMED because Steve Jobs is dead and everything is different.

     
freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Really now?

Here's what ACTUALLY happened:

When they released the iPhone 4 they hit ONE MODEL with Retina, and kept the old one in the line-up. In fact, two years later, they STILL have a non-retina model in the lineup.

Bizarrely, you even wrote pretty much that to cover your bases, but ignored that it completely smashed your own point:

Yes, they kept the legacy around but Apple is about dropping legacy, so today it is DOOMED because Steve Jobs is dead and everything is different.

Here's reality. They today... just today... at WWDC 2012... ANNOUNCED BRAND NEW MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros.

But these new units never got Retina displays. That's the difference. Instead of moving the product lines forward they're stuck with the same low res screen.

All the Blogs, news outlets... waiting... hoping... hearing... publishing... about how Apple was to move all of their iMacs and laptops over to Retina.

Instead, they discontinue the 17" MacBook Pros, and offer a black sheep amongst the herd Retina option 15" whateverbook that cost $400 more than an entry 15" Pro, with the rest getting spec bumps.

I believe Jobs would have unveiled all Retina lines at once, like he did with the switch over to Intel. Boom. Done. Next.
     
freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:37 AM
 
And what else? No iWork update, no mention of Apple TV, no Siri SDK, and Mountain Lion has some nice updates but it's barely a departure from Lion (I'm currently on Mountain Lion Beta).

Powernap... LOL.
     
P
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:56 AM
 
The Retina display seems to be mostly because of cost. Compare to the situation with the first MBA and the way they're priced now.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:00 AM
 
I don't really think Apple is slowing down one bit, quite the contrary. As others have said, they're picking up the pace software-wise, new versions OS X and iOS are released every year! Not too long ago, OS X development slowed down because engineers were re-allocated from OS X to iOS. In that respect, Cook's Apple is »faster« than Steve's Apple (although I wouldn't formulate it this way).

Regarding hardware, Apple is also following its established pattern: reuse components as much as you can, use the economy of scale and integrate new technologies from the top down. This is economically very smart, also considering that the Airs account for most of the volume: if you run into display manufacturing problems for screens for your most popular product, you are in deep shit. Instead, they chose to lower the prices.

This keynote follows the long-established pattern that some people are disappointed of keynotes as long as there isn't »one more thing«.
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besson3c
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:16 AM
 
I don't understand where you are coming from freudling. This was one of the most overwhelming WWDCs in recent memory.

Did Apple outfit all Macs with Superdrives immediately? No, because they cost extra money. Why doesn't Apple sell larger Cinema Displays for the same price as the previous models? Again, costs. Apple for years was (maybe still is) skimpy on RAM because it also costs money. When have they ever absorbed the costs of bleeding edge technology rather than making their customers who want it pay the premium for it?

The retina transition is not going to be all that complex as far as updating apps go, I don't think Apple is terribly worried about this, this is a cost thing.

I fail to see how you can make this into a sign of Apple lacking balls in a post-Steve Jobs Apple, unless you are just seeing what you want to see.

I like Apple and all, but I also don't understand your insistence on referring to Apple employees (not just Jobs) as if you know their precise place in Apple, their personality, how they contribute to the company, the politics there, and project all of this stuff. We all know very little about Steve Jobs and the rest of Apple that isn't part of some journalist's or author's little narrative possibly skewed to serve their purpose.

You are making wwaayyyyyyyyy too many assumptions and projections here.
     
imitchellg5
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:29 AM
 
I think that if you're looking from the standpoint of Apple breaking out revolutionary new products all the time, Apple has slowed down. We aren't being hit by shiny all-new stuff as often as we had been right after Jobs came back to Apple and up until the iPhone 4. Instead, Apple seems to have been focusing on engineering excellence. While the iPhone 4S may be disappointing because it wasn't a new design, and the MacBook Pro may be disappointing in some aspect because it isn't really much more than a design evolution, you have to admit that the engineering that Apple has put into their new hardware and software is mind-blowing. I think Apple has found a sort of pinnacle of design aesthetic that they're cautious to take too far. Instead, they're focusing on what's made Apple so great all along: It just works.
     
imitchellg5
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I believe Jobs would have unveiled all Retina lines at once, like he did with the switch over to Intel. Boom. Done. Next.
Hmm. You mean like how he kept the 17" PowerBook G4 and the Power Mac G5 around after the switch to Intel?
     
nonhuman
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I think that if you're looking from the standpoint of Apple breaking out revolutionary new products all the time, Apple has slowed down. We aren't being hit by shiny all-new stuff as often as we had been right after Jobs came back to Apple and up until the iPhone 4. Instead, Apple seems to have been focusing on engineering excellence. While the iPhone 4S may be disappointing because it wasn't a new design, and the MacBook Pro may be disappointing in some aspect because it isn't really much more than a design evolution, you have to admit that the engineering that Apple has put into their new hardware and software is mind-blowing. I think Apple has found a sort of pinnacle of design aesthetic that they're cautious to take too far. Instead, they're focusing on what's made Apple so great all along: It just works.
Maybe the problem is not that Jobs is gone, but that Ive has peaked.
     
Eug
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Hmm. You mean like how he kept the 17" PowerBook G4 and the Power Mac G5 around after the switch to Intel?
Or like how He introduced the 12" AluBook and 17" AluBook with USB 2 just weeks after releasing the 15" TiBook with USB 1, and then kept them all around together as one mixed line for almost a year...
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:41 AM
 
Or perhaps some people feel such a sense of entitlement to technological advancement that's impossible to match on Planet Reality.
     
ort888
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:41 AM
 
The only thing I agree with is that iOS 6 is a little underwhelming.

Guessing what Steve Jobs would have done or would not have done is already tiresome.

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Thorzdad
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'd say a key factor in staggering the retina display is to give developers a generation to work with it before it becomes the standard.
Also, it gives the screen manufacturer time to ramp-up reliable high-volume production of the much larger screens.
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:55 AM
 
I'm not seeing any slowing, looks to be about the same pace they've been running for a few years now.
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freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:59 AM
 
Sure you can point out exceptions here and there but with Jobs at the helm Apple took risks and was bold. I feel they're more conservative now.

They might release Retina products later this year... but I think Jobs would have pushed everyone to just make it happen for yesterday. It would have been much more compelling and further bring the competition to their knees.

I'm sorry I'm not impressed. I'm running iOS 6 Beta and Mountain Lion and while I like both, they're not much of a departure at all from previous versions. Just a few sprinkles extra.

And they copied Android on the new iOS keyboard!

But I do love the new Siri! Full support for Canada baby!!!
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 12:01 PM
 
There were a lot of tradeoff decisions and slow periods during SJ's leadership. freudling's claim that all lines would necessarily have Retina displays under SJ is absurd. There's no basis whatsoever for such an assumption.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
ort888
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Jun 12, 2012, 12:21 PM
 
Things always moved slow.

We've just been spoiled by the massive explosion of iOS in the last 5 years.

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Jun 12, 2012, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The only thing I agree with is that iOS 6 is a little underwhelming.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
iOS looks pretty much the same old. Not much happening there. Yes, Siri on iPad, some nice updates...
I totally disagree. iOS6 really got me excited.
There are some phenomenal changes, and many really innovative features.

* new Maps app, with 3D and flyover, turn-by-turn navigation, even from home screen. AWESOME
* Passbook, incl. location awareness looks AWESOME
Did you catch that this will include the possibility of electronic coupons ?
* Facetime over cellular - about time, good to have
* Shared Photostream - NICE
* Guided Access - GREAT for kids
* Call-back reminders, quick message when receiving a call and do-not-distrube are very nice

I don't know what you guys expected ? Sliced bread ?

-t
     
ort888
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Jun 12, 2012, 12:57 PM
 
I was hoping for some cool way for 3rd party apps to use widgets, icons for folders, a universal file system of some sort, shortcuts to important settings (one button that turns bluetooth on and off, etc...), a way to make apple apps we don't want go away... changing icons (like the calendar icon) or maybe something cool and new we weren't expecting.

I'm not saying it's a bad update, just that it's not that exciting.

It's definitely the smallest leap forward of any of the main iOS upgrades. To be fair, there is less to address now, less obvious problems to solve... but still...

I have a feeling that there will be more cool new stuff when we see the "new" iPhone.
( Last edited by ort888; Jun 12, 2012 at 03:01 PM. )

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imitchellg5
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Jun 12, 2012, 02:12 PM
 
I just want the weather app icon to say something other than 73˚...
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I just want the weather app icon to say something other than 73˚...
Mine says 23˚.
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2012, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
* Facetime over cellular - about time, good to have
Also known as "we're turning this shit on now AT&T. Deal with it."
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't understand where you are coming from freudling. This was one of the most overwhelming WWDCs in recent memory.
I always have trouble figuring out whether freudling is against "for" or for "against", depending on when he's changed his mind or meds.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I think that if you're looking from the standpoint of Apple breaking out revolutionary new products all the time, Apple has slowed down. We aren't being hit by shiny all-new stuff as often as we had been right after Jobs came back to Apple and up until the iPhone 4.
Discounting the iPhone 3G (or, for that matter, the 3GS), the iPad 2, all iMacs since the original G5 eight or what years ago, and all laptops except for the 2010 MacBook Air since late 2008, and all Apple hardware between 2003 and 2006 (which, IIRC, was smack in the middle of Jobs' tenure).

This retina MBP is easily on par in significance to mobile computing with the 2010 MacBook Air.

On the software side, there really isn't all that much left to *do*, at least on the desktop... I'm happier than I've ever been with the Mac OS, and Mountain Lion will clinch what issues I still have...
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
On the software side, there really isn't all that much left to *do*, at least on the desktop...
I disagree. They're converging iOS and the Mac OS. This is gonna take a lot of work.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I believe Jobs would have unveiled all Retina lines at once, like he did with the switch over to Intel. Boom. Done. Next.
They introduced a 15" MacBook Pro and a Core Duo iMac initially.

That was IT. NOTHING ELSE.

The 17" MacBook Pro didn't ship until April. The 13" MacBook came in May. The Mac Pro didn't even follow until August—and that, apparently, was because they were way ahead of schedule.

And the iPad and iPhone lines were also entirely switched over to retina. Boom. Boom. Boom. Tsk.
(Except they're still selling non-retina iPhones AND iPads, aren't they.)
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I disagree. They're converging iOS and the Mac OS. This is gonna take a lot of work.
Never.

And Tim Cook has actively discounted it, as well.

They're bringing them up to feature parity as best they can, but they will never merge them.

If you're talking about growing iOS to be more and more a suitable replacement for traditional OSen, then you're right, of course: Apple have their work cut out for them to bring more "serious" software to the new interface (the way they did with iPhoto). This may not be a priority, though. I'm not certain an iPad in its current form actually needs a Logic to complement the utterly amazing iOS GarageBand.

But the work there is not going to happen on the desktop, other than to add useful features developed for iOS back into the Mac, where it makes sense (as in Mountain Lion).
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Sure you can point out exceptions here and there but with Jobs at the helm Apple took risks and was bold.
They still are.

The problem with your assertion is that for your claims, there are nothing BUT exceptions.

There is not one single instance where Apple went whole hog across the line, except for the very first round of product introductions after Jobs took the helm, when they killed off 30 products and all legacy ports for the iMac and the smurfMac.

None. Zero. Zip. Not one.

The one you've mentioned—the intel switch—was staggered over eight months.
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Never.
I'm not talking about unforking them, I'm talking killing the finder.
     
freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
They introduced a 15" MacBook Pro and a Core Duo iMac initially.

That was IT. NOTHING ELSE.
I'm serious how delusional are you? Really? I'm seriously asking you. Do you actually believe what you write?

So they introduced their Pro laptop and iMac as Intel... and what I'm saying is that they should've done this at the least here. At least upgrade the iMacs too.

All they did was offer 1 model as Retina. To me that's not enough.
     
freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:33 PM
 
Ok, couple things I've noticed on iOS 6.

Apple has the same keypad as Android now for the phone. And I mean the exact same. Android has had this keyboard for well over 1.5 years. Either somebody leaked this UI to them from Apple or Apple copied them.

And although they had Apple TV for some time, they seemed to have really copied Netflix... the new iTunes store is all horizontal scrubbing in movies just like Netflix. It's hard to tell the difference.
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:35 PM
 
All they did was offer one Retina display model. One model that is leading the industry.

Not good enough for you? Sodie's too cold, your teef hurt? Too freaking bad.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 12, 2012, 04:37 PM
 
Oh wow, Apple was so embarrassed over the Mac Pro it took the New badge off it on the store!

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Jun 12, 2012, 04:37 PM
 
My bet is there is not enough retina display manufacturing capacity to switch more products. Thsi is new technology, and to make those big panels at a high quality isn't introduced overnight.

-t
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
My bet is there is not enough retina display manufacturing capacity to switch more products. Thsi is new technology, and to make those big panels at a high quality isn't introduced overnight.

-t
I think it's notable they're releasing the hardware a month before you get the software. That's got to be a Cook move. Apple almost never does shit like that.

Cook is also Mr. Supply Chain. If anyone could flex the muscle to make everything retina it would be him.

For freudling's scenario to work Cook would have used less than the maximum level of supply chain muscle but still be in such a hurry to release he trips over himself.

This didn't happen. Things aren't all retina because it wasn't possible. If anything Steve would have waited another year. That's not fast.
     
turtle777
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:12 PM
 
This is the problem with all the rumor sites and hype blogs. Even before something is ready and available in mass quantity, everyone is expecting it to ship ASAfrigginP.

In the past, you just wouldn't know about it until it shipped in mass quantity. Today, Apple has a harder time to completely control the leaks.

-t
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
They introduced a 15" MacBook Pro and a Core Duo iMac initially.

That was IT. NOTHING ELSE.

The 17" MacBook Pro didn't ship until April. The 13" MacBook came in May. The Mac Pro didn't even follow until August—and that, apparently, was because they were way ahead of schedule.

And the iPad and iPhone lines were also entirely switched over to retina. Boom. Boom. Boom. Tsk.
(Except they're still selling non-retina iPhones AND iPads, aren't they.)
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I'm serious how delusional are you? Really? I'm seriously asking you. Do you actually believe what you write?
WTF, freudling?

No, seriously, WTF?

Originally Posted by freudling View Post
So [in January 2006] they introduced their Pro laptop and iMac as Intel... and what I'm saying is that they should've done this at the least here. At least upgrade the iMacs too.
They introduced a SINGLE MODEL of their pro laptop line, and updated their consumer machines by replacing the MLB and keeping everything else the same.

I'm sure they could have updated the entire iMac line to retina graphics. Since you think it's feasible, please do try and find out what a 27" panel at 5120 x 2880 would cost.
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
WTF, freudling?

No, seriously, WTF?


They introduced a SINGLE MODEL of their pro laptop line, and updated their consumer machines by replacing the MLB and keeping everything else the same.

I'm sure they could have updated the entire iMac line to retina graphics. Since you think it's feasible, please do try and find out what a 27" panel at 5120 x 2880 would cost.
This is what I mean. There's too many excuses being flung around. If they can offer Retina screens in tiny products and the iPad, then why can't they on their notebooks and desktops. It's all speculation.
     
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Jun 12, 2012, 05:53 PM
 
Cost? They need to be able to sell $1,000 notebooks and can't if they have retina displays?

This isn't a hard question to answer.

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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2012, 06:03 PM
 
a) cost, and

b) yield (associated with cost)

Even reality isn't immune to a modicum of common sense.
     
ort888
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Jun 12, 2012, 06:10 PM
 
Let's be honest as well. I'm going to bet that the majority of the computer buying public doesn't care that much about retina displays. Not enough to pay significantly more for one.

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Spheric Harlot
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Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
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Jun 12, 2012, 06:27 PM
 
Just like nobody is buying the iPad 3 over the 2?

No, the difference will be apparent, and if it's like the iPad 2 vs. 3, it will be completely convincing, even you're already decided on what you're going to buy. It may not be enough to change your mind, though, true.

But they'll be standard across the line next year or the year after, anyway.
     
gradient
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Jun 12, 2012, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
...they copied Android on the new iOS keyboard!
I've looked over the iOS6 preview and don't see a noticeable difference in the keyboard. What's the deal here? Not that I care if a good idea from Android migrates over to iOS (it certainly goes back and forth).
     
Phileas
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Jun 12, 2012, 09:01 PM
 
The iPad 3 display is awesome, if the Macbook display is anything like it it'll revolutionize the industry. Reading on the new iPad is a total pleasure, with no eye-strain of any kind (for me).
     
Wiskedjak
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
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Jun 12, 2012, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
This is what I mean. There's too many excuses being flung around. If they can offer Retina screens in tiny products and the iPad, then why can't they on their notebooks and desktops. It's all speculation.
I love how you criticize as "speculation" people's criticisms of your speculations.
     
freudling  (op)
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Jun 12, 2012, 09:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post
I've looked over the iOS6 preview and don't see a noticeable difference in the keyboard. What's the deal here? Not that I care if a good idea from Android migrates over to iOS (it certainly goes back and forth).
The iOS 6 Beta has a white keyboard and blue upper number well. Keys and call button styled differently. It's totally different. What don't you understand?

Are they just making fun of Android here and not going to market with this?

Because it's a complete rip off.
     
 
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