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Got a new ride! (Page 6)
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downinflames68
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Sep 24, 2010, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Peoples future opinion of your car drives its resale value. Fair enough if your not bothered in any way about that but most people are. It's a strong reason why people don't buy manual shift Mercedes as they can be hard to sell second hand, or luxury cars without leather.

If you need to bolster the resale on your car then pick a model that will be more popular. It's not the buying decision, just one of them. Rob is quite right with his Mini analogy in this respect. And in calling out the new Mini and a piece of cynical marketing crap.


IMHO

Woot.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 24, 2010, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
I'm saying the cars that are valuable to enthusiasts, are valuable to collectors, which are the "cool" cars. Nobody is ever going to freak out about you owning a porsche with an automatic transmission. Not ever. People who drive appliances might think it is a cool car, but anybody who's into cars will just say "cool bro!" and roll their eyes.
The PDK already makes up 70% of 911 sales, so apparently it has taken some measure of popularity.
     
downinflames68
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Sep 24, 2010, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
So why do you drive that Audi?

The pure excitement of a real family car?


YouTube - Audi drift

S4/S6
     
downinflames68
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Sep 24, 2010, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
The PDK already makes up 70% of 911 sales...
Exactly. And most cars on the road are boring appliances. You are only reinforcing my point. Not many of the 'enthusiasts' drive PDK 911s. Just like most mustangs are not GT500s. Just like most Contours are not SVTs.

The smaller production numbered, hardcore model is the one to own. ALWAYS. Not the most popular run of the mill version. I'm sure a 911 with pdk is a great car... but it will never be as coveted as one with a proper manual transmission.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 24, 2010, 06:34 PM
 
Well if you're gonna be driving it exclusively on the track, the PDK would be a great choice. But if you're buying a lower-end 911 and aren't spending every waking minute at the track, I don't see why you'd want to have the PDK (and the used-Boxster-sized hole it brings to your wallet).
     
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Sep 24, 2010, 07:07 PM
 
The PDK 911 hits 0-60 far faster than the manual.
And they're less of a ball-ache in traffic.

PDK C4S for everyday. GT3 for fun. Period.
     
richwig83  (op)
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Sep 24, 2010, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
The PDK 911 hits 0-60 far faster than the manual.
And they're less of a ball-ache in traffic.


PDK C4S for everyday. GT3 for fun. Period.

Same applies for the DSG in the vw/audi's! But some people still manage to overlook that!
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imitchellg5
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Sep 24, 2010, 07:34 PM
 
I said it about 38 times earlier in this thread...
     
CreepDogg
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Sep 25, 2010, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Exactly You obviously don't. You drive boring, unremarkable, appliances. Every vehicle I've owned, was worth more WITH a manual. Because the automatic was less desirable, in every single case. That's because I tend to drive interesting things.
Let's see, from what I've gathered, you've had...

Neon - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA hilarious overstyled piece of crap, WAY more blingy than a new Mini (even the NAME is overstyled and blingy)
Prelude - yeah, had one of those too. Sorry - automatic would've been worth more (and is more desirable to a broader market). So - FAIL.
Accord - yeah, fascinating (and also worth more with an auto)
SVX - wait, doesn't that only come with an automatic unless you do some really expensive and/or time-consuming retrofit? Once again, FAIL.
Some random lame Audi high on the cockometer - sure hope you find one of the 3 people who care when you sell it...

Man, since you think your cars define how 'interesting' you are, you must be REALLY pathetic...
     
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Sep 25, 2010, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Yes, I've driven several. Also, sometimes cynical marketing works. In the case of the Mini it's worked really well.

And yes they are quite good to drive. Personally I would have rather they shelled this pretty good car in a design that was as innovative as the original not a mindless pastiche.
So in your world, 'good to drive' = 'crap'? Just trying to understand.

You could say that iPhones are overmarketed. Does that make them 'crap' too?
     
CreepDogg
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Sep 25, 2010, 01:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
The smaller production numbered, hardcore model is the one to own. ALWAYS. Not the most popular run of the mill version. I'm sure a 911 with pdk is a great car... but it will never be as coveted as one with a proper manual transmission.
If you have the time and patience to market your car at resale to one of the handful of people who care, perhaps. Not to mention, if you keep the car in pristine condition and don't drive it more than, say, 2500 miles a year. Because you're going to pay more for that 'hardcore' model up front, and unless you find someone else willing to pay extra for that 'hardcore' model and/or you don't do the extra things to keep that vehicle 'hardcore', you'll just end up getting hit harder by the depreciation.

Not to mention, you better pick the right 'hardcore' model, because some will end up being coveted, and some will not. So choose wisely.

The boring appliances have a much wider market and will have a much steadier resale. Boring? Maybe, but that sometimes also makes them THE one to own. A lot of people have wives and jobs and homes and don't have the time or patience for finding one of the 3 people who care about their 'hardcore' vehicle, and they just want to get from Point A to Point B and maybe have a little fun along the way. Hence - lots of appliances with a fun side to them on the market. Funny how that works!
     
downinflames68
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Sep 26, 2010, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
If you have the time and patience to market your car at resale to one of the handful of people who care, perhaps. Not to mention, if you keep the car in pristine condition and don't drive it more than, say, 2500 miles a year. Because you're going to pay more for that 'hardcore' model up front, and unless you find someone else willing to pay extra for that 'hardcore' model and/or you don't do the extra things to keep that vehicle 'hardcore', you'll just end up getting hit harder by the depreciation.

Not to mention, you better pick the right 'hardcore' model, because some will end up being coveted, and some will not. So choose wisely.

The boring appliances have a much wider market and will have a much steadier resale. Boring? Maybe, but that sometimes also makes them THE one to own. A lot of people have wives and jobs and homes and don't have the time or patience for finding one of the 3 people who care about their 'hardcore' vehicle, and they just want to get from Point A to Point B and maybe have a little fun along the way. Hence - lots of appliances with a fun side to them on the market. Funny how that works!
Completely and totally disagree. Sorry. I have not seen one case where the boring run of the mill model was worth more than the hardcore "enthusiast" version. What would you rather own? A boring V6 64 mustang? Or a Gt500?

Exactly.
     
LegendaryPinkOx
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Sep 26, 2010, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Completely and totally disagree. Sorry. I have not seen one case where the boring run of the mill model was worth more than the hardcore "enthusiast" version. What would you rather own? A boring V6 64 mustang? Or a Gt500?

Exactly.
I think CreepDogg's point was you'll get more bang for the buck buying a V6 mustang today for $21,078 and driving it as a peppy appliance, than dropping $53,645 for a GT500 and babying it so it doesn't depreciate.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/models/
( Last edited by LegendaryPinkOx; Sep 26, 2010 at 01:17 PM. Reason: for reference)
are you lightfooted?
     
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Sep 26, 2010, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
What would you rather own? A boring V6 64 mustang? Or a Gt500?
Herpes.
     
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Sep 26, 2010, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Completely and totally disagree. Sorry. I have not seen one case where the boring run of the mill model was worth more than the hardcore "enthusiast" version.
Awesome.
     
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Sep 26, 2010, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Completely and totally disagree. Sorry. I have not seen one case where the boring run of the mill model was worth more than the hardcore "enthusiast" version. What would you rather own? A boring V6 64 mustang? Or a Gt500?

Exactly.
I'm in the "my car doesn't define me" camp. I drive a Honda because I have had decades of solidly positive experience with them. My car has an automatic-not because I don't like manuals but because I like not having to bother with them sometimes. Besides, if I want a fairly exciting ride, I can drive my wife's S2000 with a 6-speed and over 230HP.

But again, driving for me isn't about making people envy me. It's about getting where I want to go safely, comfortably and reliably.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Sep 26, 2010, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Completely and totally disagree. Sorry. I have not seen one case where the boring run of the mill model was worth more than the hardcore "enthusiast" version. What would you rather own? A boring V6 64 mustang? Or a Gt500?
Neither. I like to have cars that start reliably in cold weather and take turns at more than 3mph. I'd take a, say, 2006 Civic or Corolla over either of those.

Now, if I wanted a car to keep in a garage 362 days out of the year and sink money into 'restoring' and 'show off', I might have a different answer for you.

Bottom line - as others have said, if you actually want to drive your car regularly, you're not going to do any better with your 'hardcore' model, and are likely to do worse. You seem to be forgetting that if it's 'worth more' when you sell it, it's also 'worth more' when you buy it. Which means there's lots more room for depreciation.

And, closer to topic, an Accord or Prelude with a manual is not the 'hardcore enthusiast' model, it's just a different choice. One that has a smaller market to sell to than one with an automatic.
     
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Sep 26, 2010, 11:29 PM
 
And yes, in Rob's world, I'm one of the 'sheeple' who drives 'appliances'. I think I can live with that. Just means I must be doing something right.
     
richwig83  (op)
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Sep 27, 2010, 04:16 AM
 
Wow... Talk about going off topic!!

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Sep 27, 2010, 05:11 AM
 
Rawr.

That car really needs to be black.
     
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Sep 27, 2010, 05:27 AM
 
White is the most popular car colour in Oz, because it reflects the heat. I can't imagine getting into a black car when it's 45°C outside.

Great for you northerners though.
     
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Sep 27, 2010, 06:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Neither. I like to have cars that start reliably in cold weather and take turns at more than 3mph.
To be honest, you're only reinforcing Rob's image of you as an uninformed sheeple driver.
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
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Sep 27, 2010, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by richwig83 View Post
Wow... Talk about going off topic!!
Yeah, it's too bad that Rob's back, as it's now impossible to have a good car thread without him crapping all over it.
     
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Sep 27, 2010, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yeah, it's too bad that Rob's back, as it's now impossible to have a good car thread without him crapping all over it.
The OP could always put a disclaimer in the post. Something like I will kill anybody who craps all over this thread by mentioning resale values.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 27, 2010, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Completely and totally disagree. Sorry. I have not seen one case where the boring run of the mill model was worth more than the hardcore "enthusiast" version. What would you rather own? A boring V6 64 mustang? Or a Gt500?

Exactly.
You started talking specifically about an increase of value over cars with a manual gearbox vs. the same exact same car with an automatic, which I can agree if you have an enthusiast-geared car such as a G37 or a E30 BMW is probably true to a certain extent. For example, take a car like your UrS6. They can be had very cheaply, but I also know a man who payed over $10k for a very well-cared for example (with S2 conversion). The average person who's looking for an old Audi would think that's a total rip-off, but a fan of the car would see it as well worth it. So I think that your side of the argument is correct in some ways, as is the other side. People always place their own values on things regardless of market value, and that doesn't just go for cars.
     
downinflames68
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Sep 27, 2010, 11:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Let's see, from what I've gathered, you've had...
You forgot a few:

68 Charger 383 Hurst 4spd.
78 Mercury Marquis Brougham
Neon - A 2400lb 132hp pocket rocket that I learned a lot on. I street raced, I autox'd and I discovered that small cars can be a lot of fun to drive. I ALSO discovered that having a base model sucks. This is the car I sunk money into, never to see again. Why? Base model. And most of my "upgrades" came stock on the higher end models. I upgraded to a cluster with a tachometer, I upgraded to fold down rear seats, I upgraded to the R/T swaybars, I upgraded to to a DOHC muffler... all of that stuff came standard on the higher end models. I swore from that point onward I would only own the best example of any car I was interested in.

Prelude - Sorry. You're totally and completely wrong. The demand for a 5spd is FAR FAR FAR greater than an automatic. I can take polls on every prelude forum if you'd like, or you can just admit you don't know what you are talking about.

Accord (92 and 89), the 5spd was much more fun to drive, returned better MPG, and was more reliable... but I agree here. Since honda doesn't offer a "performance" version of the accord, the automatic is worth more. Agree.

SVX - Yep. Auto only. I did buy the top of the line one, which is worth more than the cloth interior FWD model with fewer options. And, like always, the 5spd versions are worth more than the automatics. Same car, same mileage, 5spd is more desirable, and worth more. You lose again.

S6. Yeah, my 300hp AWD wagon sucks. That must be why it went up in value about $1500 over the past year.
     
downinflames68
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Sep 27, 2010, 11:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by LegendaryPinkOx View Post
I think CreepDogg's point was you'll get more bang for the buck buying a V6 mustang today for $21,078 and driving it as a peppy appliance, than dropping $53,645 for a GT500 and babying it so it doesn't depreciate.

Ford - Cars, SUVs, Trucks & Crossovers | Ford Vehicles | The Official Site of Ford Vehicles | FordVehicles.com
True, if you're buying new. However, eventually, that v6 mustang will be worth almost nothing, whereas the hardcore one will still be worth a bit. But I cannot think of one "used" example where the enthusiast version is worth less.

Mini vs Mini Cooper S
Civic vs Civic Si
Neon vs SRT4
Impreza vs WRX
A6 vs S6
A4 vs S4
318 vs M3
528 vs M5

The "fast" version is always more desirable, and more expensive.
     
downinflames68
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Sep 27, 2010, 11:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Neither. I like to have cars that start reliably in cold weather and take turns at more than 3mph. I'd take a, say, 2006 Civic or Corolla over either of those.
Would you rather have: Civic with automatic vs Civic Si with 5spd?
Corolla automatic vs Corolla S?

Wait... isn't the corolla s the same thing with a stupid bodykit? Bad example there....
     
downinflames68
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
You started talking specifically about an increase of value over cars with a manual gearbox vs. the same exact same car with an automatic, which I can agree if you have an enthusiast-geared car such as a G37 or a E30 BMW is probably true to a certain extent. For example, take a car like your UrS6. They can be had very cheaply, but I also know a man who payed over $10k for a very well-cared for example (with S2 conversion). The average person who's looking for an old Audi would think that's a total rip-off, but a fan of the car would see it as well worth it. So I think that your side of the argument is correct in some ways, as is the other side. People always place their own values on things regardless of market value, and that doesn't just go for cars.
Think you mean RS2. But yeah, you get it.
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:14 AM
 
How’s the car doing Rich?
     
richwig83  (op)
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Sep 28, 2010, 04:13 AM
 
I don't know..... Ask Rob, he's the expert!

Bought a WALK kit for it, should help it out of the corners a little!
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Sep 28, 2010, 09:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Neon - A 2400lb 132hp pocket rocket that I learned a lot on. I street raced, I autox'd and I discovered that small cars can be a lot of fun to drive. I ALSO discovered that having a base model sucks. This is the car I sunk money into, never to see again. Why? Base model. And most of my "upgrades" came stock on the higher end models. I upgraded to a cluster with a tachometer, I upgraded to fold down rear seats, I upgraded to the R/T swaybars, I upgraded to to a DOHC muffler... all of that stuff came standard on the higher end models. I swore from that point onward I would only own the best example of any car I was interested in.
Thanks for making my point for me. You sank a bunch of cash in to 'upgrade', never to see again. So your car had the features that higher-end models had, and you lost out. See a pattern here?

Prelude - Sorry. You're totally and completely wrong. The demand for a 5spd is FAR FAR FAR greater than an automatic. I can take polls on every prelude forum if you'd like, or you can just admit you don't know what you are talking about.
You're talking about the 5 people who participate in prelude forums. I'm talking about the general population. Yes - there are a number of people who will always want the 5spd (for the record, I had the 5spd too). But the number of people who want an automatic is far far greater. They're just the folks who don't participate in forums, because 1) they're not that into it, and 2) they don't want you crapping on their threads.

SVX - Yep. Auto only. I did buy the top of the line one, which is worth more than the cloth interior FWD model with fewer options. And, like always, the 5spd versions are worth more than the automatics. Same car, same mileage, 5spd is more desirable, and worth more. You lose again.
So wait, which is it? You bought the top of the line one, which is auto only and 'worth more'. But, in the next sentence, the 5spd versions are 'worth more'. Which is it?

S6. Yeah, my 300hp AWD wagon sucks. That must be why it went up in value about $1500 over the past year.
How do you know? Did you sell it and re-purchase it?
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Would you rather have: Civic with automatic vs Civic Si with 5spd?
Corolla automatic vs Corolla S?

Wait... isn't the corolla s the same thing with a stupid bodykit? Bad example there....
Right now, for my needs, I'd take the automatic in each case. And there are a LOT of people like me. Remember, I'm one of the 'sheeple' that drives 'appliances'! In order for there to be 'sheeple', doesn't there have to be a large 'herd'?
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
True, if you're buying new. However, eventually, that v6 mustang will be worth almost nothing, whereas the hardcore one will still be worth a bit.
Actually, eventually, they'll both be worth almost nothing (assuming they're both driven and not kept for 'collectors' in a garage).

But - at whatever point you're talking about, I guess the question would be the relationship between:
a) $21,078 minus 'nothing', and
b) $53,645 minus 'a bit'

But I cannot think of one "used" example where the enthusiast version is worth less.

Mini vs Mini Cooper S
Civic vs Civic Si
Neon vs SRT4
Impreza vs WRX
A6 vs S6
A4 vs S4
318 vs M3
528 vs M5

The "fast" version is always more desirable, and more expensive.
Duh. Some of those even come with automatics, and they're STILL more expensive. And, once again, more expensive to buy AND sell. Which, shockingly, is why there's a market for both the base models and the 'fast' versions.
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 09:55 AM
 
When I sold my '93 Civic 3-door (with a 5-speed) in 2002, the really big selling point was "low mileage," NOT the 5-speed. I stepped up to a Civic Coupe with an automatic because it was 1) on the lot and ready for me to drive away and 2) it's mileage ratings were within a couple digits of the manual Coupe's. I loved that car, and drove it for 5 years, then I traded it in on a Civic Sedan, also with an automatic. Got top dollar for the Coupe, too.

Not all drivers are enthusiasts, and not all drivers want to be enthusiasts. Further, the majority of drivers in my area would be (more) dangerous in "enthusiast" cars with more pick up, speed and horsepower than they already are in large trucks and "armored soccer mom carriers."

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Think you mean RS2. But yeah, you get it.
Oh yeah, oops. And I want one.
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Prelude - Sorry. You're totally and completely wrong. The demand for a 5spd is FAR FAR FAR greater than an automatic. I can take polls on every prelude forum if you'd like, or you can just admit you don't know what you are talking about.
You think that's relevant.

SVX - Yep. Auto only. I did buy the top of the line one, which is worth more than the cloth interior FWD model with fewer options. And, like always, the 5spd versions are worth more than the automatics. Same car, same mileage, 5spd is more desirable, and worth more. You lose again.
Well yeah, because there are a handful of homemade 5 speed conversions. Does the difference in price reflect the time and money invested to complete the swap?

S6. Yeah, my 300hp AWD wagon sucks. That must be why it went up in value about $1500 over the past year.
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
In other news, they've just announced film six in the Fast and Furious saga. It'll be based in Wales, and will involve Dominic Toretto killing lots of sheep with his ninja throwing stars whilst driving a WRC over the Brecon Beacons trying to avoid the Taffyban.
The working title is "Faat and Foorious, Isn't It".
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 10:27 AM
 
That will be much better than any Fast and Furious film so far.
     
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:05 PM
 
Manual trannys are never as reliable as automatics.

More fun to drive? Sure. More reliable for day to day driving? Hell no.
     
Laminar
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Manual trannys are never as reliable as automatics.

More fun to drive? Sure. More reliable for day to day driving? Hell no.
Really? I'd wager that a few gears meshing is much much more reliable than the valve bodies, bands, solenoids, vacuum stuff, electronics, etc. that you get with an automatic. More points of failure = less reliability. Sure, your clutch will wear out, but if it's not abused, a manual transmission/transaxle can last forever.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:32 PM
 
Clutches are cheaper to replace, too.
     
sek929
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:40 PM
 
Look, I'm only talking out of experience. Out of all the cars I've had with autos they all work great and needed zero maintenance. In my standard cars, and my friends, there is nothing but throwout bearing problems, slave cylinders, linkage issues, etc etc.

If I had to get a car built for longevity I'd easily get an automatic, I've never had any part of auto transmission give me any problems since I've got my license. Auto trannies can last forever too, with little to no maintenance.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Look, I'm only talking out of experience.
Take that shit to the PL

But seriously, the mechanics I know agree: More parts = more stuff that can fail. Clutch = simpler = better.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Take that shit to the PL

But seriously, the mechanics I know agree: More parts = more stuff that can fail. Clutch = simpler = better.
It's official: Parachute > hang glider > airplane
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Laminar
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:51 PM
 
Pencil > Typewriter > Computer
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:52 PM
 
Replacing the clutch is the least of my worries.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 28, 2010, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
It's official: Parachute > hang glider > airplane
I'd be curious to see you chances of dying per those examples.
     
Laminar
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Sep 28, 2010, 01:07 PM
 
Also, manual and automatic transmissions serve the same function. The same can't be said of the other comparisons.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 28, 2010, 01:08 PM
 
That crossed my mind as well.
     
 
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