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Scientology kills another person (Page 2)
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sek929
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:00 PM
 
It's easy to deny what your original intent was when you post a blanket one-liner and then spend thirty posts explaining what "you really meant."

Even saying it's "the oldest trick in the book" isn't cliché enough for what that is. That's why I used our own little NN meme of saying that this entire exchange has been very Kevin-like, and you know how many arguments he 'won' with this style of changing the meaning of posts for pages and pages.

Major religions believe in the power of belief and prayer: True
Major religions are like the CoS because they often deny medical care: False

...and with that you can be absolutely sure I'm done with replying to you in this thread. I apologize to OlePigeon for crapping all over the place.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:04 PM
 
Most religions these days make an effort not to kill their adherents. Scientology and Christian Science are novelties in this sense.
Rank amateurs compared to the quakers.
     
TheWOAT
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Difference between a religious person who believes in cures out of modern medicine and a person who doesn't believe in voodoo crap like exorcism.

A religious person with voodoo crap beliefs:

Treats with modern medicine. While on modern medication, they do their holy water and exorcism on the side, or whatever voodoo crap. Believes it is working and sick person is cured. Stops taking medicines since they believed person is cured. Person dies. Or they just died from exorcism.

So Scientology is just like most religions; Believing in cures outside modern medicine.



A person with doesn't believe in voodoo crap:

They doesn't believe that exorcism or prayer works. Continue on modern medicine as they believe it is what's keeping the person healthy, and not some voodoo crap.
You make is seem like exorcisms are common. Quite realistic scenarios there, champ. I know plenty of Catholics, not many believe in exorcisms.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Shaddim, are there any Scientologist at your Church?

Since there are Atheists who attend, I wonder.
Yep, we have one that I know of. But, there are far more atheists.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
brassplayersrock²
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:08 PM
 
this thread has shown me that i'm glad i don't knnow one or two of you in real life.
     
sek929
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
You make is seem like exorcisms are common.
You kidding? Exorcism is right up there with that bread thingy for religious people
     
sek929
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
this thread has shown me that i'm glad i don't knnow one or two of you in real life.
Thanks for sharing?
     
TheWOAT
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
You kidding? Exorcism is right up there with that bread thingy for religious people
Maybe your right, I guess they are like spiritual laxatives, every once in a while its good to clean out your soul of dirty demons.
     
hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yep, we have one that I know of. But, there are far more atheists.
And why do you feel that you need to respond with a person attack when I said.

"So Scientology is just like most religions."


Do you feel Scientology is inferior?
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hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:35 PM
 
Well, lets hope exorcism isn't perform that often in Christianity.

If it was, I would start to think most Christians are mentally ill and need to have the demons exorcise out of them.

Maybe they should stop trying to exorcise the gayness out of people.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:41 PM
 
not you sek, don't worry
     
TheWOAT
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Well, lets hope exorcism isn't perform that often in Christianity.

If it was, I would start to think most Christians are mentally ill and need to have the demons exorcise out of them.

Maybe they should stop trying to exorcise the gayness out of people.
Maybe you should stop driving while intoxicated.
     
hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:44 PM
 
So Shaddim is the biggest hypocrite.

He says most religions are similar and all of them are correct, because in infinite levels of infinite possibilities everything has to happen and all God(s) exist. So Scientology must be right too.

Yet he gets defensive when I say "So Scientology is just like most religions."
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:44 PM
 
okay, y'all do know that all religions are just placebos right?
     
hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
Maybe you should stop driving while intoxicated.
I don't drink alcohol.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:44 PM
 
I'm not going to bother to quote anyone specific, because most people here are sane. I just want to clear things up a little for hyteckit, given that he is ridiculously hostile to religion (as many atheists are) and has a lot of misconceptions about Christianity (as many Western atheists do).

Your original argument was that most (if not all) religions use prayer, faith, dogma, etc. as a substitute for modern, scientific, clinically proven medical procedures.

There are certain cults (Scientology, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses) who believe that modern science is humanistic, evil, and heretical. These small subsets of those who believe in some sort of dogma or philosophy are a tiny fraction of the overarching population.

Christianity teaches that there is a single God who is in control of the universe. Given that belief, Christians will sometimes ask God to intervene and, being an active participant in the lives of everyone on the planet, maybe allow things t that's o work out in a positive light. Christians believe that since God controls everything, He is capable of doing anything. It's not that a Christian will say "God, please take away my grandmother's terminal breast cancer", believing that his grandmother shouldn't undergo surgery, chemo, or radiation therapy. It's more of a "God, I really really want my grandma to live, and if it's in your plan, please see that she does".

There are some Christians on the outer edges who believe that things like mental problems are God's way of telling you there's something wrong with your spiritual life. However, any Christian who has an ounce of common sense is aware that science can prove to us where many mental problems come from - for instance, clinical depression stems from an imbalance of serotonin in the human brain. It's not necessarily because God is trying to teach you a lesson. In fact, it's nearly always because of a physiological problem caused by circumstance or genetics.

You claim that religious types believe that physiological and psychological problems are cured by something other than medicine. Now, if you want to look at the broader picture, then sure. Christians believe that God is in control; therefore, anything that happens in an individual's life is a direct result of God's plan for that person. However, it's not like God just does it all supernaturally - He works through ways that we can understand...like medicine and psychology. Scientologists believe that any mental or psychological problem is a direct result of alien entities being attached to your physical body, and removing those entities one by one is the only way to relieve yourself of your mental duress.

You need to not generalize every person who believes in God as a crazed "fundie" who doesn't accept anything that modern science has to say. All that kind of behavior does is make you appear hostile, ignorant, and hateful. If you are interested in showing what you believe is truth (e.g. "There is no god") to those around you, you might take a slightly more benevolent and friendly approach.
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TheWOAT
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:46 PM
 
I thought religions were opiates, after being crutches.
     
hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I'm not going to bother to quote anyone specific, because most people here are sane. I just want to clear things up a little for hyteckit, given that he is ridiculously hostile to religion (as many atheists are) and has a lot of misconceptions about Christianity (as many Western atheists do).

Your original argument was that most (if not all) religions use prayer, faith, dogma, etc. as a substitute for modern, scientific, clinically proven medical procedures.

There are certain cults (Scientology, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses) who believe that modern science is humanistic, evil, and heretical. These small subsets of those who believe in some sort of dogma or philosophy are a tiny fraction of the overarching population.
I'm defending Scientology.

You are the one being hostile to religion, such as Scientology, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses.

I merely state the fact that Scientology is like most religions.

So why is Scientology as being singled out as the nutty religion when most religions are the same?

If you are an adult over 18 years old and refuse medical treatment because of your beliefs or moral values, that's your choice. It's your right. If you want to commit suicide, that's your choice and should be your right.

I'm just making the point Scientology is like most religions.

People believing in miracle cures and exorcism are just as nutty.


Why are you singling out Scientology as being nuttier and inferior?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:56 PM
 
who in their right might, besides a scientologist, would defend scientology?
     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:57 PM
 
That's just it. Not all religions are the same.

Do you actually know anything about Scientology, outside of Tom Cruise's well-publicized freak-out on Oprah's couch?

It's not a religion. It's a scheme to weasel as much money as possible out of people. It teaches complete fabrications made up by a science fiction author who was looking for a quick and dirty way to get rich. Scientology teaches that you must invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in the "church" in order to rid yourself of the aliens that are causing all of your problems (psychological and otherwise).

Conversely, Christianity is free. It teaches that people are inherently sinful (bad, selfish, etc), and that the only way to redeem oneself is through Christ (salvation). It costs no money. It does not demand much out of you, when you actually stop and read what the Bible tells you about right and wrong.

Not all cults and world religions are the same by any stretch of the imagination. Christianity does not hunt you down and try to ruin your life if you reject your beliefs. Scientology does.

I should add that I am not being hostile to any religion. I'm not running around calling names or flinging poo at others. I am merely stating what certain cults teach.
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brassplayersrock²
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Jan 7, 2009, 09:00 PM
 
not going to argue with you shuifimam, just pointing out that christianity isn't free. they ask for donations as well. every single mass.

     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 09:04 PM
 
(a) that's catholicism (mass), and (b) churches are non-profit organizations. It's no different from giving money to the Salvation Army or your local homeless shelter.

Donating money is not a requirement to participate, nor is it a requirement for salvation. Scientology dictates that money must be spent in order to achieve redemption (in their case, the complete removal of all body thetans).
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Chuckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 09:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
I'm defending Scientology.

You are the one being hostile to religion, such as Scientology, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses.

I merely state the fact that Scientology is like most religions.

So why is Scientology as being singled out as the nutty religion when most religions are the same?
Because they aren't. We've demonstrated this over and over again, and you've been like, "Nope, they both have beliefs, therefore no difference." It's like trying to prove that a person working in a soup kitchen is just like a rabid dog because they both have teeth.

Most religions do not tend to bring serious physical harm to their members. A few do. That's a pretty big difference in my eyes.
Chuck
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hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 09:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
That's just it. Not all religions are the same.

Do you actually know anything about Scientology, outside of Tom Cruise's well-publicized freak-out on Oprah's couch?

It's not a religion. It's a scheme to weasel as much money as possible out of people. It teaches complete fabrications made up by a science fiction author who was looking for a quick and dirty way to get rich. Scientology teaches that you must invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in the "church" in order to rid yourself of the aliens that are causing all of your problems (psychological and otherwise).

Conversely, Christianity is free. It teaches that people are inherently sinful (bad, selfish, etc), and that the only way to redeem oneself is through Christ (salvation). It costs no money. It does not demand much out of you, when you actually stop and read what the Bible tells you about right and wrong.

Not all cults and world religions are the same by any stretch of the imagination. Christianity does not hunt you down and try to ruin your life if you reject your beliefs. Scientology does.

I should add that I am not being hostile to any religion. I'm not running around calling names or flinging poo at others. I am merely stating what certain cults teach.
sifuimam, please follow the thread.

This thread is about medical treatment. Not about donations.

If we want to compare the difference between religions, we would be here forever.

And:

Similar != same


If the thread had the topic: Scientology believes in the afterlife! They are nuts.

Then I reply: So Scientology is like most religions.

Do you make it a habit of responding with: Not all religions are the same. It's not a religion. It's a scheme to weasel as much money as possible out of people.

Come one. Follow the discussion.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 09:51 PM
 
You guys seriously need to follow the discussion.

The thread is started by olePigeon by saying:

The latest victim of Scientology is Jett Travolta. I knew it the instant they said Jett died from a seizure. Scientologists refuse to treat mental disorders, saying they're just a weakness of character. Aliens put evil thetans into peoples' brains and make them have autism and seizures.
I heard/read he was taken off medication because John Travolta said that the Scientology treatments were working.

So I made the comment "So Scientology is just like most religions."

You know "just like", "alike", "similar".


An intellectual person who wants a civil discussion would have ask "How is Scientology just like most religions? In what respect? Please elaborate."


I would then respond with "Well, Scientology like most religions, believe in cures outside of modern medicine."


Yet, I get responses like:

Shaddim: So, we could assume, from your post, that most atheists are mentally damaged?

shifuimam: They are not the same. It's not a religion. It's a scheme to weasel as much money as possible out of people. It teaches complete fabrications made up by a science fiction author who was looking for a quick and dirty way to get rich.

sek929: You are ridiculously hostile to religion.



Seriously guys? Did you guys not learn how to have an intellectual discussion or civility?

I know you guys hate Scientology, but geez. Learn some civility. Learn how to have an intellectual discussion.

I'm the one treating all religion with the same respect.

It's the religious people here who are ranking religions on which one is superior and which one is inferior. Even from Shaddim who said he respects all beliefs.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
sifuimam, please follow the thread.

This thread is about medical treatment. Not about donations.
Yes, and as everyone else has already pointed out, Scientology's attitude toward the mental health profession is far more hostile than that of most religions. You, however, continue to fire back with "all religions are the same", which is why I brought up a few points as to why all religions are not the same.

If we want to compare the difference between religions, we would be here forever.

And:

Similar != same


If the thread had the topic: Scientology believes in the afterlife! They are nuts.

Then I reply: So Scientology is like most religions.
But even in the strict context of attitudes toward medical and mental health care, Scientology is NOT like most religions. Most religions do not force adherents to believe that modern medicine is evil and something to be avoided.

Do you make it a habit of responding with: Not all religions are the same. It's not a religion. It's a scheme to weasel as much money as possible out of people.
Um. I said it once. That is not "making a habit". That's saying something once.

Come one. Follow the discussion.
...says the guy who has yet to make any coherent, logical arguments in this discussion. Your responses have been hostile and reactionary, which makes it pretty hard to "follow the discussion" to your liking.
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hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 10:10 PM
 
Here's my Atheist, Catholic, and Scientologist in a bar joke:

A Catholic goes up to the Scientologist and says "Your religion is nuts. You believe that Aliens are the cause of mental illness and you guys can cure it by exorcism."

An Atheist goes up to the Catholic and says "Your religion is nuts. You believe that Demons are the cause of mental illness and you guys can cure it by exorcism."

The Catholic reply "But unlike Aliens, Demons are real."

Both the Catholic and Scientologist then tells the Atheist "Maybe you are mentally ill because you don't believe in God and need to be exorcise."

The Atheist the replies "I guess both of you are similar."

The Catholic and Scientologist both responded at the same time "No, we are not the same."
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
I'm the one treating all religion with the same respect.
You're kidding, right? You have made it clear throughout your PWL posts that you have zero respect for any religion.

You aren't looking at religions objectively at all. So far, you've been generalizing "religion" based on a few fringe groups - JWs, Christian Scientists, and Scientologists. You've used this as an argument that "all religions believe in cures outside of medicine".

People have repeatedly pointed out that most religious people do not deny medicine's value, and you've pretty much ignored them.

It's the religious people here who are ranking religions on which one is superior and which one is inferior.
Hmm. If you look back at what I wrote, I was stating some objective points about several religions. Regardless of my personal beliefs, Scientology does demand hundreds of thousands of dollars out of its followers. Regardless of my personal beliefs, Christianity (e.g. the Bible) doesn't dictate that followers should ignore science and medicine and rely solely on God for relief from physical pain or problems.
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shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 10:18 PM
 
Could you do me a favor? Please link to and quote some official statements that the Catholic church (or any mainstream - e.g. non-fringe - Christian church, for that matter) believes that mental illness is exclusively or primarily the result of demonic forces (possession).

Because, you know, what I'm seeing from the National Catholic Partnership on Disability says nothing to that effect:

Pope Benedict XVI offered great guidance to the newly forming Council when he directed “I express appreciation to those who help and care for [people with mental illness] … and I exhort them to strive to ensure that medical, social and pastoral assistance for those in need is never lacking, respectful of the dignity proper to every human being. The Church, particularly through the work of her chaplains, will not fail to offer you her help, well aware that she is called to express Christ’s love and concern for those who suffer and for those who look after them.”
Also, here:

The Vatican guidelines stress that most behaviors that appear to be caused by demonic possession are actually triggered by psychiatric illness.
And some commentary by a former student and employee of Carnegie Mellon university brings up a very good point about the difference between auditing in Scientology and exorcism in the Catholic church:

Demonic possession in Catholic belief involves malevolent angels rather than deluded aliens, and is treated as an extraordinary case (for which other explanations like mental illness must be considered first) rather than ordinary (how many BTs is the average person supposed to have?)
( Last edited by shifuimam; Jan 7, 2009 at 10:32 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
You guys seriously need to follow the discussion.

The thread is started by olePigeon by saying:






So I made the comment "So Scientology is just like most religions."

You know "just like", "alike", "similar".


An intellectual person who wants a civil discussion would have ask "How is Scientology just like most religions? In what respect? Please elaborate."


I would then respond with "Well, Scientology like most religions, believe in cures outside of modern medicine."
And then we'd be right where we are now with everybody objecting, "Hey, that's not remotely accurate. Most religions allow and even encourage modern medicine."

Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Seriously guys? Did you guys not learn how to have an intellectual discussion or civility?
It's hard to have an intellectual discussion with somebody who just keeps repeating, "No, really, the sky is polka-dotted yellow and green. No, it is. Hey, no need to get hostile, I'm just pointing out that the sky is not blue! It's not!" If I started doing that right now, you'd respond to me in much the same way people have responded to you, wouldn't you? You'd think I was just saying it to make a point.

What you are saying — that the attitude of most religions toward medicine is the same as Scientology's — is patently ridiculous. It's very hard to believe that even you seriously buy it. Even worse, you just keep repeating the absurd claim instead of making any kind of logical argument. When challenged, you seem to retreat to the idea that many religions have supernatural beliefs, but that's totally unrelated to the claim that Scientology just like most religions. Unless you can demonstrate that most religions try to prevent their adherents from getting needed medical care, it seems pretty clear that Scientology is very not like them in a significant way.
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hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Could you do me a favor? Please link to and quote some official statements that the Catholic church (or any mainstream - e.g. non-fringe - Christian church, for that matter) believes that mental illness is exclusively or primarily the result of demonic forces (possession).

Because, you know, what I'm seeing from the National Catholic Partnership on Disability says nothing to that effect:



Also, here:



And some commentary by a former student and employee of Carnegie Mellon university brings up a very good point about the difference between auditing in Scientology and exorcism in the Catholic church:
You seriously?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...27evil%27.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...war-Satan.html

The Vatican has a Chief exorcist and a exorcist squad that is in charge of driving demons and the devil. They are even offering training course to hundreds of priests to perform those exorcism. They are using exorcism to treat alcohol addiction, drug addiction, homosexuality, and bad behavior, because they are obviously possessed by demons or the devil.

"The rite of exorcism involves a series of gestures and prayers to invoke the power of God and stop the "demon" influencing its victim."
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:21 PM
 
I'm not denying that there are exorcisms performed by the Catholic church (and other Christian churches). Re-read my question:

Please link to and quote some official statements that the Catholic church (or any mainstream - e.g. non-fringe - Christian church, for that matter) believes that mental illness is exclusively or primarily the result of demonic forces (possession).
Yes, there are isolated cases of what even I would call possession, but it is not a regular occurrence. Every time a person begins to experience depression or hallucinations or other psychological problems, the church does not immediately say "it must be possession; there is no other possible explanation".

Scientology unequivocally says that any psychological or mental health problem is directly and exclusively caused by invisible aliens attached to the human body.
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sek929
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
who in their right might, besides a scientologist, would defend scientology?
Somebody willing to pick a fight, at all costs, with anything remotely religious.

To quote Stan after being told what Scientology is, and if it's any more retarded than the story of Jesus.

"Yeah, it's way more retarded than that."
     
sek929
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:24 PM
 
Okay, we've got Shaddim, Chongo, Chuckit, Shifuimam, and I agreeing in the same thread.

Somebody check the temperature in hell.
     
shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
You seriously?
I seriously what...?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...27evil%27.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...war-Satan.html

The Vatican has a Chief exorcist and a exorcist squad that is in charge of driving demons and the devil. They are even offering training course to hundreds of priests to perform those exorcism. They are using exorcism to treat alcohol addiction, drug addiction, homosexuality, and bad behavior, because they are obviously possessed by demons or the devil.

"The rite of exorcism involves a series of gestures and prayers to invoke the power of God and stop the "demon" influencing its victim."
Did you even read the content of both of those articles? They are specifically talking about the Catholic church being concerned about an increased interest in the occult, and wanting to ensure that their clerics are well-versed in how to deal with people who have become heavily involved in occultism (which can include possession).

There was no mention anywhere of exorcism being used to treat alcoholism, drug addiction, homosexuality, or "bad behavior".
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hyteckit
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:41 PM
 
Let me elaborate.

Scientology, like most religions, believe in cures outside of modern medicine and that they DO WORK.

Scientologist believes they can cure mental illness through exorcism. So do Christians, Jewish, Muslims, Hindus, as well as many religions. What is exorcism? It varies. It could be just simple prayers, gestures, and rituals to physical contact or restraint.

What do Scientologist do during this exorcism? Give the person vitamins and minerals, and seclude them and don't allow anyone to talk to them.

What do Christians do during this exorcism? Holy water, Bible, prayers, and physical constraints or seclusion. Or just a simple prayers and gestures.

What do HIndus do during exorcism? Seclusion, then make a lot of noise to scare the demons away.


Most Christians believe prayers do work as a cure for disease. They pray to God in various ways. If you are an exorcist, you recite prayers in Latin. and have your own gestures and rituals. You know you are cool that way. Prayer could involve a Bible, a cross, and putting your palms together. It could involve standing or kneeling, with your head looking up or looking down. You can say your prayer out loud or in silence. It could involve different gestures such making a sign of the cross and saying "Amen" after you are done with the prayer. Whether they believe this prayers, gestures, rituals is a form of exorcism is not important. What's important is that they believe these prayers, rituals, and gestures do work.



So going back to how is Scientology is like most religions in regards to modern medicine?


John Travolta has been treating his son's disease with modern medicine for many years. At the same time his son is being treated with Scientology exorcism of minerals and vitamins, and seclusion. John Travolta has strong faith in his beliefs and truly believe Scientology exorcism is working and his child's disease is in remission. So he decides to take his son off modern medicine after treating him on it for over a decade and it has only made his son dependent on the drug. These drugs could have many side effects.

How is that any different from a Christians?

If John Travolta was a Christian and believe in the power of the prayer and exorcism (prayer, gestures, rituals, seclusion) is working, and believes prayer and exorcism has lead to his child's disease to go into remission. He would take his son off the drug because he truly believes he has been cured because doesn't want his son to be too dependent on the drug because of the many side effects. If prayers seems to have cured his son, do you continue given your child drugs that has many side effects? No.

If a person has Chemo to help with his child's cancer and believes it has finally gone into remission, do you continue your child's Chemo? No, because Chemo has bad side effects.


You don't believe the drugs that Travolta's son is taken has side effects? Do you guys want to make assumptions again?

How do you know how John Travolta feels? Maybe he saw his child suffering from the drugs for over a decade and believe Scientology exorcism has finally given him hope that he can eliminate some suffering.

I think you guys are souless pricks, who just want to attack other's religion.

Christians are no better than Scientologist is this regard. They both believe in cures outside of modern medicine.
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shifuimam
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:47 PM
 
I'm not sure you really know that much about Scientology. I've done pretty extensive research on it.

A Catholic or Christian believes that prayer might help. In very rare cases (again, note that this is the extreme exception, not the norm), he could believe that exorcism might help.

Scientology dictates that Hubbard's theories on body thetans (aliens) and auditing will, beyond any doubt whatsoever, ultimately be the only way to deal with problems related to mental health.

Do you see the distinction here?

I don't buy that Travolta had his kid on medication until recently and only quit the meds because of side effects. I find it much more likely that the CoS pressured him into it, because of how militant they are about boycotting any pharmaceuticals that impact the brain and the neurological system.
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I'm not sure you really know that much about Scientology. I've done pretty extensive research on it.

A Catholic or Christian believes that prayer might help. In very rare cases (again, note that this is the extreme exception, not the norm), he could believe that exorcism might help.

Scientology dictates that Hubbard's theories on body thetans (aliens) and auditing will, beyond any doubt whatsoever, ultimately be the only way to deal with problems related to mental health.

Do you see the distinction here?

I don't buy that Travolta had his kid on medication until recently and only quit the meds because of side effects. I find it much more likely that the CoS pressured him into it, because of how militant they are about boycotting any pharmaceuticals that impact the brain and the neurological system.

You don't buy that Travolta had his kid on medication until recently?

Please back up your claim with facts.

His son has been suffering from Kawasaki disease for many years. It requires screening every 1-2 years. It is also not uncommon that a relapse of symptoms. I don't know anyone with Kawasaki disease, so I don't know what a parent or child has to go through.

Do you guys have experience with Kawasaki disease?
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:14 AM
 
Religion effects people's view on what's considered a mental illness. Your plan on medical treatment depends on your views on whether it's a mental illness or not. Is Autism really a mental illness? How about ADD? How about homosexuality?

Your religious beliefs influence you to believe homosexuality as a mental illness? Okay, so what's the cure. Modern medicine? Counseling? Prayer? Exorcism? Is that what Christians would do?

You don't believe ADD is a mental illness? It's just an excuse for laziness? Give him vitamins and minerals and let your child sit in a corner until he is ready to study? Is that what a Scientologist would do?

You are an Atheist? Are you mentally damaged as Shaddim says?

Religions influences your views on what's consider a mental illness.
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shifuimam
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:28 AM
 
I'm so bored with this conversation. You're not going to really pay attention to anything I say, and I'm sick of wasting my time.

Also, you really need to learn how to write different tenses and forms of verbs.

All I said was that I would take Travolta's claims with a grain of salt. The CoS is notorious for manipulating its members into saying and doing things they would not otherwise say or do. I'm not saying that it's a fact that the CoS made him drop the meds from his son; I'm saying that it's possible and even likely. HIs son was thought to be autistic. However, the CoS boycotts psychological and mental disorders, so of course he wouldn't agree with that diagnosis.

Your second post is completely incoherent and irrelevant to the discussion. I don't know whether you're insinuating that I believe homosexuality is a mental illness or what - you make no sense.

Most of your posts are nothing but odd collections of thoughts that aren't well-formed. There's nothing wrong with standing up for your beliefs, values, and opinions, but you really need to work on how you communicate your views.
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I'm so bored with this conversation. You're not going to really pay attention to anything I say, and I'm sick of wasting my time.

Also, you really need to learn how to write different tenses and forms of verbs.

All I said was that I would take Travolta's claims with a grain of salt. The CoS is notorious for manipulating its members into saying and doing things they would not otherwise say or do. I'm not saying that it's a fact that the CoS made him drop the meds from his son; I'm saying that it's possible and even likely. HIs son was thought to be autistic. However, the CoS boycotts psychological and mental disorders, so of course he wouldn't agree with that diagnosis.

Your second post is completely incoherent and irrelevant to the discussion. I don't know whether you're insinuating that I believe homosexuality is a mental illness or what - you make no sense.

Most of your posts are nothing but odd collections of thoughts that aren't well-formed. There's nothing wrong with standing up for your beliefs, values, and opinions, but you really need to work on how you communicate your views.
Wait. You say Travolta's son has autism? That's your belief. Based on what exactly?

Travolta and his wife say their son has Kawasaki syndrome, because that's the diagnosis from the doctor.

We are suppose to believe your claim over Travolta's because he is a Scientologist, thus a liar as they refuse to believe in the existence of autism and ADD?



Does my 2nd post make sense now?

So you believe Scientology has alter Travolta's view on what disease his son has, and base on that, his plan of approach on what medical treatment to give his son.

Most Christians think homosexuality is a mental illness, thus the need to cure it as a mental illness.

Most Homosexuals don't believe homosexually is a mental illness. Thus nothing needs to be cured.


Travolta has been medically treating his son for Kawasaki syndrome.

You want Travolta to medically treat his son with autism.

Does my 2nd post make sense now? Your plan of approach to treat the illness is what you believe the illness to be.

Travolta said his son has Kawasaki syndrome. You called him a liar based on what again?

You are just making assumptions that his son has autism, when Travolta has said his son has Kawasaki syndrome.

I must believe you then cause you are a doctor that treated Travolta's son.

Man, you are ridiculous.
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Shaddim
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Okay, we've got Shaddim, Chongo, Chuckit, Shifuimam, and I agreeing in the same thread.

Somebody check the temperature in hell.
just shows how much of a space cadet hyteckit is.
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Shaddim
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
So Shaddim is the biggest hypocrite.

He says most religions are similar and all of them are correct, because in infinite levels of infinite possibilities everything has to happen and all God(s) exist. So Scientology must be right too.

Yet he gets defensive when I say "So Scientology is just like most religions."
I said the all possibilities exist, including one where you have a lick of common sense, but that may be stretching it.

Just because you're drowning doesn't mean you can stretch what I said out of context.
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:57 AM
 
What lead to Travolta's son's death?

What disease does Travolta's son have? Autism or Kawasaki syndrome?

How was Travolta medically treating his son the last few years?
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Jan 8, 2009, 01:39 AM
 
     
hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 02:07 AM
 
I guess many Christians do believe exorcism works.

Haha.. a Priest in Florence scam 30,000 people every year out of millions by performing exorcism made up of "lots of small donations". So Christians are like Scientologist, believing in cures outside of modern medicine. He made $6 million! Nice. He did see 80 patients a day, more than doctors see patients, so I guess he deserves it.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12253
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 02:09 AM
 
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11755

Catholic officials plan “exorcism center” in Poland


Father Jankowski said typical cases included people who turned away from the Church, embracing New Age therapies, alternative religions, or the occult. He said internet addicts and yoga devotees were also at risk.

According to Father Trojanowski, he sees as many as 20 people a week who are under the influence of evil.

"My remedy is based on spiritual means, which cannot be replaced by any pharmaceutical remedies," said Father Trojanowski. "I do not stop at the level of just treating symptoms. I'm very much interested in the soul of a person. As a priest, I keep asking questions a doctor will never ask."

Exorcists consider only a small fraction of people to be completely possessed by demons, displaying supernatural strength or revulsion towards sacred objects and speaking in exotic languages. Such cases require a direct confrontation with demons.
Haha... internet addicts and yoga devotees. Evil I say. I'll cast the demons out of you.

20 people a week? That's it? Priest in Florence see 30,000 people every year.
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 02:10 AM
 
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11819

Number of exorcisms on the rise on Australia's Gold Coast


Increased interest in Satanism and the occult has led to a rise in exorcisms in the Australian state of Queensland, the Courier Mail reports.

One priest who asked not to be identified said he presently carried out exorcisms at least once every two weeks.

"Being possessed by a demon is terrifying in one's mental and emotional life," he said to the Courier Mail. "Some of these manifestations are extremely powerful, causing people to be plagued by disturbances. They hear voices and see hideous creatures in their sleep.

"There has been a recruitment of pagan practices, and it's sheer poison.”
I don't know. I think the devil is winning because of the internet craze. Too many damn internet addicts, yoga devotees and Satanism on the web.
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hyteckit
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Jan 8, 2009, 02:13 AM
 
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11997

Diabolical possession should be handled by exorcists, Vatican official says


The regent of the Apostolic Penitentiary, Bishop Gianfranco Girotti, said this week that when a person believes he is dealing with a case of diabolical possession, it should be handled by an exorcist instead of a confessor.

During a seminar the bishop said that in cases of visions, “diabolical, mystic and supposedly supernatural phenomenon,” the “confessor should be particularly prudent and experienced.” However, he recommended “the intervention of an exorcist” as these are “complex and delicate cases.”
Of course. Dealing with exorcising demons requires a doctor's degree. It's complex. The devil is cunning.
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Shaddim
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Jan 8, 2009, 02:14 AM
 
Guess you missed this part:
“I would like to make clear the following: any sort of special rite of benediction, such as the laying on of hands, is forbidden. Exorcisms are also prohibited,” the cardinal wrote in his letter. A priest must be authorized by the diocese to carry out an exorcism.
this is standard rote for almost every jurisdiction. Of course, one scam artist = the entire Roman Catholic church, according to hyteckit "logic". Right?
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