[Feathers]

Well I guess with the lame improvements to the iMac and a total failure to get 500mhz+ G4's, Apple is seriously treading water now. As Steve used to measure screw-ups in Gil's I'm guessing he's scored quite a few this week himself.

1) Fractured the iMac market by adding further confusion to machine choice.

2) The only truly new machine, the Cube is grossly over-priced (Form over substance and then some)

3) The multi-processor illusion cannot camouflage the AIM dead-end the G4 appears to be in a market that rightly or wrongly measures power in Mhz.

4) Created inversion in the product range where a lesser specified machine costs more than a more highly specified machine. WTF.

Just like Tim Robbins in The Hudsucker Proxy...

STEVE & APPLE ARE IN TROUBLE!!!

[marc]

I'm confused by the negative reaction to the new machines. How come a 400 MHz, 13 GB iMac was cool a few months ago, but now a 500MHz, 30 GB iMac at the same price is lame? Why is a $1799 450 MHz G4 Cube with a $999 flat panel display (or $499 17" monitor) overpriced, when a $2499 450 MHz G4 tower with a $4000 flat panel display was so recently something to dream about? How is it bad, except to some people's ego, that the G4's are stuck at 500 MHz when the people who really need power know that a machine with dual 500 MHz processors and Gb Ethernet will get their work done radically faster than a GHz Pentium? (And if there was a GHz G4, and it cost twice as much as a 500 MHz machine, would you pay $7000 for it or would that, too, be overpriced?) I could explain to you why the new machines will be very welcome in my industry, but I am more interested in why you, personally, are dissatisfied. What were you hoping for?

[yoyo52]

I'm with you generally, Marc, but I think the problem is that it's easy to perceive the new products as nothing more than a repackaging of (now) old technology. If people were looking for new breakthroughs, then probably they were disappointed. Personally I think that packaging a G4 in an 8" cube is a technological innovation, and may well be a precursor to G4 laptops. And I think you have to admit that the speed thing is a marketing problem. No doubt there's a lot of the misinformed Jr. High locker room stupidity in comparing megahertzage (just made it up ), but unfortunately that kind of comparison is so ingrained in the consumer mind that Apple's 500 MHz may well not sell.

[This message has been edited by yoyo52 (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Trapper]

I have to put my 2� in here. I too am confused over all of the recent Apple bashing. Get a grip people! They changed the mouse and keyboard, something that nearly everyone in this forum had previously thought they ought to. How is that bad? They lowered the price of the iMacs, while upping the speed (in some models) and storage size a bit. What the hell is wrong with that? They changed the iMac colours to reflect consumer preferences. Again, what is the problem here? The cube - sure, it not nearly as expandable as some of us would like, but let's put things in perspective. 90% of us here in the forum want a mac that we can upgrade - 95% of the consumer market for Macs couldn't care less about PCI slots etc.

[Ca$h68]

Ok, here's what i think. Overall, good lineup(although the prices are too high). I would have like to have seen a 750mhz G4, but ah well. Didnt matter much. The mouse however, is STUPID. OOOO BOY A NICE LOOKING MOUSE?!?! COOOOOL! Oh.. wait a minute... one button?

>Ca$h throws it in the trash, like I did with the puck<

[MacNZ]

I must admit that when I watched the keynote I wasn't too impressed with the new iMacs. I thought the new colors was kind of a cover for the fact that the updated systems didn't really pack much greater a punch than the previous systems. But then again, I wasn't overly concerned by the iMac in particular. i think the thing to be worried about is the Powermac. Apple is staying in touch with PC makers by making dual G4's but it is not a good sign that faster G4's are taking so long and disrupting Steve's reall plans. Noone can really blame Apple for this because it has been Motorola's fault mainly (and maybe IBM's if they haven't solved it yet) that Apple has been stalling on getting faster systems out.
The other thing that someone said was that a lot of Apple's R & D money had gone into OSX. If that darn system had made it to market earlier too I think it would have made a huge difference in terms of the company's focus too! But we'll have to wait and see. I think the next six months will be interesting ones and I hope all goes well for Apple!

[P]

Might have been me who dropped that comment about OS X, in any case I agree with it. Apple has to ship OS X, and they have to ship it now. With OS X up and working, we can have 4, 8, 16 G4s in parallell and Wintel can stuff their MHz. That's the problem, for those who don't see it: To make sure people buy the expensive G4 towers, Apple have to keep the MHz down on the iMacs.

[Scott_H]

I'll agree that this current rev' of the G4 is a loser. BUT I don't think Apple is 'treading water" over it. They've brainwashed many into thinking that the dual G4s will run every application at 2.4 the speed. What a joke.

I was dissapointed with the iMac lineup. It's nice that there is a sub-1000 iMac, but there are no real advances to the iMac. A 100MHz speedbump was the minimum I expected after 9 months of waiting. What I really wanted to see was an upgradeable video card and a 17" monitor or headless iMac. That 15" screen is pathetic. It's also nice that I don't have to spend $50 on a mouse, now that the iMac comes with a real mouse.

I'll be getting a DVSE soon, but only because Apple has nothing better to offer for that price. I like the Apple OS, but I don't think their hardware is very competitive right now.

[oscar]

I don't think jobs said once that it will work on all applications, and did note that you needed a plug-in for photoshop. All apple is doing is getting the hardware out before the software, let people who want to order them, swap'em up over a few monthes, easing demand when macosx ships.


------------------
-See Yea!

[Ca$h68]

iMac doesnt come with a real mouse, it only has one button. 15" monitor is fine...

Ca$h

Ca$h,

You evidently dislike one-button mice. Why? Isn't that the way the Mac has always worked?

I've been using a two-button mouse on Windows for years. Now I've bought a PowerBook, and am having no problem adjusting to the one-button effect of the track pad.

And since you can easily go out and buy the two- (or three-, or twenty-) button mouse you desire, what is your objection to Apple sticking to its design philosophy?

[Ca$h68]

ok... lets see here:

A. The scroll wheel. EVERY MOUSE should have this from now on. I dont know how people can live without it, its sooooo convienient. Plus you can push it down, move your mouse like an inch and it autoscrolls.

B. Countless programs benifit from 2-3 button mice, the main one I use is Flash 4. Instead of "command" clicking, or whatever, I just hit the right mouse button and I can scale, edit, rotate, everything. Saves mondo time.

C. Games. One button mice just plain suck for games.

D. Apple is supposed to be using new ideas (they used firewire first, babied USB, all sorts of new technologies yet are still using the archiac one button mouse.... thats like building a porsche911 without disc brakes. Its stupid.

Ca$h

I can understand about wanting more buttons on a mouse, but not about the 15" monitor. How do you figure its large enough? I work on a 17 incher at work, and that's the minimum size I can stand for spreadsheets, graphics, and even word processing. 15 inches means that I have to scroll around too much, but with 17" I can see more of what I'm working on without squinting.

For games, I've found that bigger always = better. One of my friends has a 21"--quake is never the same on anything smaller after playing it on that beast.

Size matters--don't let Steve Jobs BS you into thinking it doesn't.

[Trapper]

Here's a quote from the recent issue of TidBITS:
-------------------------------
Although Apple's product announcements weren't revolutionary on a superficial level, some of them stack up better when viewed in more depth. For instance, the inclusion of the new optical mouse with all Mac models, putting gigabit Ethernet onto the motherboard of the Power Mac G4s by default, and dropping a second PowerPC G4 processor onto the motherboards of the top two Power Mac G4 models (without increasing prices) all raise the bar as to what is generally considered standard equipment. Apple isn't interested in entering a futile price war with PC manufacturers, but by beefing up the standard Macintosh, Apple can significantly close the gap with comparably outfitted PCs.
-----------------------------------
So, to all of you who are complaining that Apple is loosing its edge - shut your pie holes!

------------------
Travis Hreno
Department of Philosophy
University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario
CANADA
[email protected]

Ca$h,

Thanks for the reasoned reply. I actually agree with everything you said, and feel the same way about the scroll bar and extra buttons. Yet I still think Apple is doing the right thing by having a one-button mouse. Contradiction? No, let me explain:

I'm coming from the PC world where two-button mice are routine. Every time I teach someone about Windows, and I mean every single time, they have a problem with the two buttons. "Click? You mean the left button, or the right button?" What is obvious and intuitive to us, is not so to a newbie.

Apple plays to the newbie market, and so it's smart for them to make the one-button mouse standard. Those who need more (you and I, for instance) can buy our own. After all, since when do gamers EVER go with a stock solution?

I do wish, however, they included a scroll bar. That is intuitive to newbies and too wonderful to live without. There we agree.

PrivateCitizen

[P]

Originally posted by oscar:
I don't think jobs said once that it will work on all applications, and did note that you needed a plug-in for photoshop. All apple is doing is getting the hardware out before the software, let people who want to order them, swap'em up over a few monthes, easing demand when macosx ships.

True, but he made it seem like it.

On the mouse issue:
I replaced my puck mouse with a four-button wheel mouse after less than a month, and I love it. (Scroll wheels should be classified as a controlled substance; Man, they're addictive!) However, there is merit to the learning argument: it is easier for a newbie to use a one-button mouse. I'm thinking: How much could those pucks cost? Couldn't Apple include one for free, and let people choose which one to use?

So, are we standing in the silent crest of great cresting wave or has the tide gone out for good?

In a year, we could be dreaming over the new 750-1000mhz PPC G4 (G5?) and dazzled by the array and variety of new OS X native software.

or...

The processors could be a wash, the reality distortion field could fritz out under the strain of hoodwinking the entire industry into re-inventing the wheel for BSD/CARBON/DARWIN/AQUA/X and we could all be left high and dry.

Only time will tell. It is truly an exciting time to be a Mac user. And you thought the millennium was stressful...

[OldGuy]

At first, I too was disappointed by the Steve Expo, but then I figured what the heck has Dell or Gateway done in the way of innovation lately.

On the topic of a multi-button mouse; when I bought my iMac in February, before I left the store, the only stop I made was to pick up a Contour UniMouse. The hockey puck is still in its original plastic bag. The problem, however, is that I still haven't found a use for the two extra buttons.

------------------
CWINDOWS\SYSTEM
- all the reasons you
need to get a Mac.

[Ca$h68]

I dunno what happened to my original message, but about the 1 button mouse/newbie issue. Um.. how come they still package a 1 button retarded mouse with a G4 towere, the professional mac? I dont get it. Scroll wheels are awesome.

Ca$h

PS: Set your middle button to Auto Scroll using USB overdrive... (on contour mouse)

How many bristles does your paint brush have? How sharp is your pencil? How amny buttons does your airbrush have?

The point of a mouse is to point... and click.

I think the new mouse (and the old mouse) does this elegantly.

I can guarantee that the Macintosh is the only computer which is so loved and admired that people will comment on the most minute details. Who has honestly even considered the mice which come with other computers. What PC Maker could raise such a frevor by unveiling... a mouse.

[Ca$h68]

Yeah, but think if you had a click here, and you could drag it. Clicking with the other button could modify it. That doubles your proficiency. Multi-button mice make EVERYTHING easier.... games too.

Ca$h

[Feathers]

GUY'S TAKE YOUR GODDAM 1-BUTTON MOUSE DEBATE TO ANOTHER THREAD, PLEEEEEEASSE

Part of the thrust of my original post was that I think that from a MARKETING point of view, the new range is a disaster. Great for people who already know, love and understand Macs but NSG for trying to win NEW customers(particularly at the top and bottom end rather than in the middle!) which is what Apple STILL needs to do to survive.

Hell, we've supported Apple through thick and thin and now they're cash-rich and I still think they're fumbling the ball.

How many times in the past twelve months have they done stuff that seriously alienated even their own core, loyal customers. Er...500mhz machines becoming 450's for the same price!!! Remember that? WTF?

whats more surprising is that a year old technology (the G4) is still priced over and above $1599 (400 Mhz). Thats introductory price for a year old technology.
As for the iMac, an iMacDV without DVD ?!?1? couldnt they just have a 400 Mhz for the lowend, a 450 for midrange and 500 for the highend ? why did they have to introduce an iMac DV+, talk about confusion for customers. sheesh !!!!
And for petes sake Steve, so what if ATI fumbled and announced that Apple would bundle RADEON with the new macs ?!?!?!? thans a lot for taking it so hard, and including an ancient RAGE128 with 8/16 MB RAM. is it just me or do i see wintel notebooks with 8MB RAM ? and desktops with 32MB+ ? please correct me if im wrong.

And whats up with the monitors ? they look great and all. but $500 for a 17" monitor ?!?! christ....and not to mention that if u buy a new PM/Cube ull have to get one of Apples new monitors which are very economically priced at $500,$1000 and $4000.

The "Pro" keyboard ?!?!!? seems more like back to the future.....they should have introduced it with the original iMac.

Dont get me started on the Mouse. I agree, its an improvement, but still one button ?

G4 Cube...yeah really stunning design, ill give them that.....$1800 ?!?!!?? no upgradabilty, 16 MB RAGE 128 ? sorry...i see a better deal for those looking for a new computer and who were considering a machine with those specifications.

PM-G4-400.....$1500.....64MB RAM ?!?!? whats up with that ? i mean its not like RAM costs an arm and a foot u know ?

new colors ? i must agree, they do look great and a great improvment over the old ones (except for snow), but how many peripheral makers are goona stay in the Mac markets if Apple keeps releasing new colors every macworld ?

All in all, think they have it more confusing for customers, and they are holding back technology by keeping the G4 exclusively for the Pros.

4 imacs, 3 PowerMacs, 2 Cubes,3 ibooks and 2 PowerBooks. a very simple matrix i must say.i remember wen Steve introduced the original imac....he rediculed the previous Apple line up which had 15 different computers, and said they wanted to keep it simple. They now have 14 different products in their lineup.

[Ca$h68]

Yeah.... I agree... I hate to admit it, but I think my next computer will be a PC, but hopefully I wont have to use windows (ack).

The Mac OS is so much nicer, but since PCs are incredibly cheaper, incredibly better performing, and more options, I think I might go that route. Way to go apple, you just lost another customer.

Ca$h

Hint: You MIGHT win him back if you produce CHEAPER computers (aka ditch the fancy cases... spend more on hardware) and get GOOD video cards.

Ok, ok. Let's relax for a second and I would really appreciate it if people in this form would stop saying "WTF", an acronym for a phrase that is unnecesasry and immature.

That said, here is what I have to say about the current discussion:

"The new Pro Mouse doesn't have a scroll wheel or a second button! It sucks!"

Actually, one-button mice DO have some advantages. If you are a lefty, you will never have to worry about modifying software just to comfortably use a mouse. The newbie issue has been mentioned before.

I do have to agree, however, that scroll wheels could at least be an option. I personally do not own one, but I used a Microsoft scroll mouse on my cousin's new Gateway. I honestly was not impressed-the wheel clicked awkwardly and the scroll moved very far and too quickly for my tastes. (It behaved that way no matter how slowly you scrolled Maybe drivers can fix that.) However, a lot of people really really like these. So I'm torn about how Apple should be making their mice.

But WHY has no one even mentioned the fact that Apple is the only mainstream computer manufacturer to offer optical tracking standard? This is so cool and everyone just wants to bash Apple despite that fact. I have to clean my mouse innards WAY too often, and the Optical mouse ends that forever. Plus, it is more accurate than most other mice (it's even better than other optical mice).

"The new iMacs suck!"
What have you been smoking? Apple is on the verge of supplying an $800 iMac, and is expanding the range even more than previously. They have been speed-bumped, FireWire capable machines are now cheaper than before, and have bigger hard drives. This is the best iMac line Apple has ever had.

"The new iMac product range is too confusing!"

It's not that hard-you start with an entry level machine, and as you add features, you have to pay more. Consumer choice is GOOD. However, I also will agree that they shouldn't have called the new $999 model iMac DV, since it doesn't have a DVD drive. That is confusing.

"The multi-processor G4 computers don't offer a great performance improvement."

This is one of the very few credible complaints on this forum. Yes, the AIM alliance has fallen on hard times. Unfortunately, all we can do for now is wait for Mac OS X.

An interesting sidenote is that multiprocessing is often more effecient than a single processor whose clock speed is equal to two combined processors. Be used to have a white paper describing this on their website (http://www.be.com). Unfortunately, Be Inc seems to be basically stagnant. Now there is a company that is really treading water. You think Mac users have trouble with getting good applications, check out the Be folk...

[This message has been edited by Dagen (edited 07-31-2000).]

[garrettnelson]

My thoughts on this: This MWNY was a dud. Really. I don't know what Apple was thinking. The best thing I think they did was bring the low-end iMac down to $800. Other than that, they muddied the iMac line while not really adding much significant improvement. The dual G4s are great but nobody's really going to notice any improvemexcept on Photoshop, at least not until OS X ships. And the Cube? Does Apple really think that somebody's going to buy something more expensive than the G4 with less the power simply because it fits on your desk better?? Give me a break!

[wlonh]

yeah sure a dud , yeah right... i have been to many MacWorld Expos and this was so heavily attended and packed with vendors, makes the last two pale in comparison, people...

oh yeah, a dud.

Being well attended and being worth seeing are to different things.

I went and I didn't see much that I really needed or wanted.I bought an iMac DV last fall and haven't seen anything worth upgrading to.

I have zero on my buy list from Apple or anybody else. I would love to see some integration with A/V, music and video using firewire, but fetish speakers from Harmon Karmon and buttonless mice do not impress me.

I repeat, smoke and mirrors. Even Apple's new commercials on TV are derivitive crap which rehashes the original iMac ad campaign. I don't think they will have to threaten too many people to take those down from their home pages, there's not a lot of interest.

Apple needs to deliver on some of the promises made last year and quit with the deversion tactics.

We want real processor upgrades, competitive prices across the board and how about that new OS...

I bought my iMac to run it! By the time it gets out, it gets de-bugged and someone actually writes software I care about to run on it, I will probably be forced to upgrade again.

I am not buying another CPU until OS X is out hot and heavy. Who's with me?

[wlonh]

WORTH SEEING is an opinion

Attendance and vendors means interest and revenue, period.

business is business due to revenue, no??

[AusRob]

Most people have indicated that they were a little disapointed with the line up and that they would not be buying anything new this time. Well anyone who has just bought a DV/SE would probably think that. To anyone who does not already own a Mac or was thinking of switching platforms this "new line" may seem just the ticket. I'm sure there have been alot of people sitting on the fence saying "I'll just wait till they get a little faster or more affordable or I get a larger choice". Well Apple did that and I am sure a lot of people will come off that fence. Also, most of us on this forum are long term Mac users so we have a good idea of what previous models are like and how these new ones compare. People new to Mac will see their ONLY line available and will just maybe think "These computers are s**t hot" because they don't have the luxury of long term knowledge for that comparison. Maybe we should be asking not how they stack up to the previous model but how do they measure up to the opposition.

Wow! I just realized I am a senoir member! Internet time, what a trip!

Any how, The point I was trying to make is that Apple has critical areas of their business that still need attention. Their new OS is still lagging behind. The processor speed (admittiedly not under their control) is lagging behind. I don't mean to imply that their current line up isn't nuclear hot, it is (well the jurry is still out on the cube :-).

But, anyone who was been with the Mac community for even a little while will see these familar problems have not been addressed.

Sure, the iMac is single handedly luring attention away from anything the windows world can offer (except amybe Sony's new vaio notebook, rrrreeoooww! I wish it ran Mac OS!)

But even the mass middle of PC and MAc users can't help but notice:

a) The fastest processor Apple offers is 500mhz and they have been hawking that since this same time last year!
b) In laymen's terms 500mhz is *not* faster than 1000mhz, no matter what color case it comes in. Yes, there are different architectures. But, RISC and PPC were supposed to have less of a design limitation of speed than the CISC and X86 archetecture being beaten into the ground by Intel.

So, what to do? Light a fire under IBM and Motorola. They seem more concerned with power consumption than horsepower. Apple is still a major consumer of there chips and needs to address this.

If not TransMeta. this new chip claim to have the power to revolutionize the chip industry. Through a ROM-like software layer, it can emulate any other chip.

I am just saying I want to be wowed! The cube smells an aweful lot like the 20th anniversary Mac to me. pretty package, no surprises inside.

Originally posted by Ca$h68:
ok... lets see here:

A. The scroll wheel. EVERY MOUSE should have this from now on. I dont know how people can live without it, its sooooo convienient. Plus you can push it down, move your mouse like an inch and it autoscrolls.

B. Countless programs benifit from 2-3 button mice, the main one I use is Flash 4. Instead of "command" clicking, or whatever, I just hit the right mouse button and I can scale, edit, rotate, everything. Saves mondo time.

C. Games. One button mice just plain suck for games.

D. Apple is supposed to be using new ideas (they used firewire first, babied USB, all sorts of new technologies yet are still using the archiac one button mouse.... thats like building a porsche911 without disc brakes. Its stupid.

Ca$h

I use a control panel call Scrollability and with that I don't miss the scroll wheel, you just put your pointer near the edge of the window and it scroll.

Luc

I bet you use ducktape to fix anything on your car too eh?

Thats a really half-assed solution... If it doesnt have a scroll wheel, its junk... moving your cursor to the scroll bar defeats the purpose of having a wheel, as you could just click and hold and drag down a wee bit. Having a scroll wheel allows you to scroll downward from almost anywhere on the screen. Its great. Once you go scroll, you NEVER go back... (and you realize how RETARDED and closed minded Apple designers are)

Ca$h

[PeteL999]

I think the apple pro mouse is a nice mouse but they should offer an alternative mouse maybe with an extra button and a scroll wheel. Take Microsoft for instance they an optical mouse with two buttons and all the way up to four buttons plus a programmable scrolling wheel which works very nicely for games an internet use.

[Feathers]

Oh Dagen, WTF?

When you have a few more posts under the elastic of your underpants maybe then you can tell us how to conduct ourselves!

Welcome aboard! - It'd be worse if you were ignored.

[disectamac]

Originally posted by marlond:
The cube smells an aweful lot like the 20th anniversary Mac to me. pretty package, no surprises inside.

You know what Marlond, I hadn't smelled that until you pointed it out, I think you might be on to something but I'm not quite sure.

[iPaul UK]

Mice with scroll wheels.. I think many, if not most of us get by perfectly well without a multi-button scroll wheel mouse. And for those of you who need a mega mouse, then you have the option to go out and buy one! But I don't think it needs to be standard issue on Macs. Mice seem to be getting so complex now! Soon, there will be a keyboard with a mouse wheel hidden underneath it so you just punt the whole keyboard around on the desk! I bet thats your ideal mouse huh Ca$h!?

G4 Cube, yes, it's over priced for the spec. Anyone who is getting one is either, 1, not paying for it with thier own money. Or 2, Has more money than sense.

iMac line up. Hmm, Personally I think it's a pretty good line up.. BUT! DV stands for Digital Video, does it not? in which case you should be able to use Digital Video Discs on it! I think 3 varients of iMac was fine, 4 is too many. I think the price is pretty reasonable for all the models.

Well thats my 2 pennys worth!

Jeeze, I guess Apple sure is dead Feathers.

You're frustration inspired writings remind me of the myopic garbage that I recall reading in The Wall Street Journal a few years back, and that I've read ever since from the analysts that can't see past quartly figures or market share numbers.

Apple, the Macintosh, and the future of the Mac platform is all at an historic point right now. For the past three years Apple has completely revitalized it's hardware line up. Three years ago Apple was producing some of the worst hardware out there (not everything, but something�s were just bad, i.e. 6500). Apple now creates world class, high quality, beautiful and 'in touch' hardware. It's been incredible, and nobody would have predicted it's possibility three years ago.

Now here were are. Apple is about to complete the loop with the release of Mac OS X. Over the next three years Apple going to do the exact same thing it did with hardware to the software side. It's exciting, and if we took a lesson from Apple history we might all just see that exccitement.

No more FUD, please Feathers.


------------------
Eliott Wolfe
Winnetka, Calif