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MindFad · Nov 4, 2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Yes I love you but not CRT's at 1024 hooked up to a dual 800. That's bonkers. Upgrade just the monitor.

Like I said earlier, if I had the money, I would�that Samsung 172x runs natively at 1280x1024 (good for me for a few years). And the pixel response and brightness are stellar.

And my eyes aren't that good, and 75Hz I can't stand at 1280x1024. So I'm gonna have to manage with 105x792 at 96Hz for awhile yet.

The fact that it's a dual 800 ain't that big a deal.

I want me some dual G5 lovin'.

Brass · Nov 4, 2004, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by JCS:
I was just pointing out that there is still a potentially large amount of indexing that needs to be done even to volumes that were fully indexed the last time you saw them. Who knows what has happened since, and if it has been done through a non-Tiger kernel?

My secondary point was that all disks will have to be scanned to check if any of these kinds of changes have taken place. So that Spotlight icon will certainly be throbbing every time a new volume is mounted, at least for a little while, and possibly for a long time (assuming the throbbing means that it's checking the disk or updating its index, as people have speculated here).

How would it? How can the MD database (which is just a bunch of plain files on disk) be updated by, say, a Panther Mac writing to its local disk? Bottom line: the only index that will be "always up to date" is one on a disk that has never been written to through a non-Tiger kernel.

Actually, how would it be sure which files were modified by a non-Tiger system? Time stamps? How could it be sure that timestamps from antoher system were correct according to it's own internal clock?

For that matter, what happens if you change the date on the Tiger system back and forth and reboot a few times?

What about modifying files in the Terminal? Is spotlight notified by the filesystem driver that a file has been updated, or is it only at a higher level?

If it is notified by the filesystem driver, then will the Finder also be notified and have it's windows kept up to date (which many of us have been complaining about for years)?

diamondsw · Nov 4, 2004, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Actually no that is not what it means. I mean having a dual 800 yet a CRT with a low res is some sorry ****.

Ah, my mistake. In that case, you have my sympathies.

DVD Plaza · Nov 4, 2004, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by rm199:
someone told me that some tiger apps run under panther. I think they were DVD player, stickies and calculator. Anyone tested this?

I tried moving Mail 2.0 from my Tiger PowerBook to my Panther PowerBook - but when I run it the dock icon bounces once and then it immediately quits.

Damnit the new layout, and some of its new support, finally make Apple's mail usable for me - I desperately need to move away from Entourage (I'm overloading it) but don't want to run Tiger on my primary PowerBook yet

JCS · Nov 4, 2004, 11:14 PM

Actually, how would it be sure which files were modified by a non-Tiger system? Time stamps?

Yes.

How could it be sure that timestamps from antoher system were correct according to it's own internal clock?

You can't be sure. Clock skew is sometimes just a fact of life. But dates are the only option in many situations.

For that matter, what happens if you change the date on the Tiger system back and forth and reboot a few times?

It will get angry! Actually, I just had to set my date back a day to keep a beta working. Most apps handle it well, but some don't. What can you do...

What about modifying files in the Terminal? Is spotlight notified by the filesystem driver that a file has been updated

More likely in the VFS layer, but the result is the same: it works.

If it is notified by the filesystem driver, then will the Finder also be notified and have it's windows kept up to date (which many of us have been complaining about for years)?

What, you want the Finder to concern itself with such mundane things? Ha, that's so 1989! Like, uh, use Spotlight or something...

Brass · Nov 4, 2004, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by JCS:
What, you want the Finder to concern itself with such mundane things? Ha, that's so 1989! Like, uh, use Spotlight or something...

Actually it was so 1984. In 1984 - 1999, an open Finder window always showed up to date content of a directory. The 2004 Finder does not (not sice the first Mac OS X Finder). I'd really like to see this fixed, as I know many others would. If notifications of changes are sent to Spotlight, hopefully they can be sent to the Finder as well.

Link · Nov 4, 2004, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by MindFad:
The fact that it's a dual 800 ain't that big a deal. I want me some dual G5 lovin'.

If you get a dual g5 and keep that same monitor I'm gonna kick your butt.

MindFad · Nov 5, 2004, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Link:
If you get a dual g5 and keep that same monitor I'm gonna kick your butt.

I'd considered the 9800 XT since it comes with an ADC connector, and I could use this monitor with it.

But I'll have that Samsung probably before I ever got a new tower.

geekwagon · Nov 5, 2004, 01:04 AM

Some network filesystems (CIFS comes to mind) will notify all connected clients whenever a file is changed by a different client. I know NFS can do this too but I think the server only notifies clients that have the file open, at least in NFSv3. Of course, it also requires a file-locking implementation that works (ie not Apple's.

)

I dunno if AFP supports this but if it did it would at least solve the problem for when you were connected to the share. When you first connect to the share the Spotlight daemon is going to have to scan the filesystem and check date/time stamps to see if the files have changed.. I really don't see any other way of doing it.

SMacTech · Nov 5, 2004, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
I tried moving Mail 2.0 from my Tiger PowerBook to my Panther PowerBook - but when I run it the dock icon bounces once and then it immediately quits.

Damnit the new layout, and some of its new support, finally make Apple's mail usable for me - I desperately need to move away from Entourage (I'm overloading it) but don't want to run Tiger on my primary PowerBook yet

I am surprised you actually thought that would work!

I sure as hell don't want spotlight to be indexing a network share. With 30 or so OS X Macs looking at a share, which one is supposed to scan the files looking for time-stamp changes?

The ability to do this correctly would require some agent on the server watching for file changes and modifying a single meta-data file store at the root of the share, which all OS X Tiger clients can then use.

As it is now, Spotlight is NOT scanning shares. Thankfully ! I connect to about 7 shares when I log on in the morning and certainly don't want my slow cube scanning the shares and updating the meta-data. Looking at the robocopy logs from last night, that would equate to almost 2 million files to scan.

Horsepoo!!! · Nov 5, 2004, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
I tried moving Mail 2.0 from my Tiger PowerBook to my Panther PowerBook - but when I run it the dock icon bounces once and then it immediately quits.

Damnit the new layout, and some of its new support, finally make Apple's mail usable for me - I desperately need to move away from Entourage (I'm overloading it) but don't want to run Tiger on my primary PowerBook yet

Almost every app save the DVD Player, the Terminal, Sherlock and maybe a few utilities has been compiled using GCC 4...you won't be able to get these to work under Panther.

Tsilou B. · Nov 5, 2004, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
I tried moving Mail 2.0 from my Tiger PowerBook to my Panther PowerBook - but when I run it the dock icon bounces once and then it immediately quits.

Damnit the new layout, and some of its new support, finally make Apple's mail usable for me - I desperately need to move away from Entourage (I'm overloading it) but don't want to run Tiger on my primary PowerBook yet

Have you tried Mozilla Thunderbird? You can download it from www.mozilla.org/thunderbird - it's free and it has many of the features of Tiger's Mail.app - and of course, it runs in Panther.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Nov 5, 2004, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Link:
If you get a dual g5 and keep that same monitor I'm gonna kick your butt.

And I'll take on his moms!

MPMoriarty · Nov 6, 2004, 01:50 AM

However Apple handles SpotLight over a network, I'm sure they'll do it fine. I mean they have the guy who created the BeOS file system BFS leading this project. I'm sure if anyone knows a great deal about indexing meta data in a file system its him. I recently had a chance to sit down and read his book...

"Practical File System Design"

Great book. Some parts went way over my head, but I understood the logic behind what he was saying. He's a very smart guy.

Mike

MindFad · Nov 6, 2004, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
And I'll take on his moms!

You'll kick my mom's butt?

Zimphire · Nov 6, 2004, 03:33 PM

Sissy-man

Simon · Nov 8, 2004, 04:24 AM

Re: Spotlight Indexing

Can somebody report how Apple is tying together Spotlight with the older Context Search?

- is the old content search still around or has it been entirely replaced by Spotlight?
- is there still a 'Content index' tab in the Finder's information panels?
- does it now refer to Spotlight's content indexing or do both content search engines coexist but with no ties in-between?
- is there some way (similar to the older content index) to manually specify which volumes Spotlight indexes?

TETENAL · Nov 8, 2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
Re: Spotlight Indexing

Can somebody report how Apple is tying together Spotlight with the older Context Search?

- is the old content search still around or has it been entirely replaced by Spotlight?

Read the article I posted earlier:

http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html

The old context indexing is one part of Spotlight now (the other part is meta data storage).

Simon · Nov 8, 2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Read the article I posted earlier:

http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html

The old context indexing is one part of Spotlight now (the other part is meta data storage).

I read that article already, but as far as I understand it doesn't specifically mention if Spotlight's content search is identical with the old (going back to the OS 9 days) content search or if it has been totally rewritten...

leperkuhn · Nov 8, 2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
I read that article already, but as far as I understand it doesn't specifically mention if Spotlight's content search is identical with the old (going back to the OS 9 days) content search or if it has been totally rewritten...

Totally re-written. The old content search was completely reindexed at set intervals, and the search was based on that. However, if you just saved a change in a file then the new content wouldn't be in the index.

Spotlight indexes that file right away, and the results are available immediately.

Mr Scruff · Nov 8, 2004, 08:00 PM

Had a chance to play with this build today, and I did a couple of test that may be interesting to some people (SYN in particular).

If you do in the terminal:

cd Desktop
touch foo

The file 'foo' appears on the Desktop instantly.

If you then do

rm foo

the file 'foo' disappears instantly. Very cool.

There are lots more things that I noticed, but I thought I'd mention this seeing as it's been an irritant to me and others for a while now.

TETENAL · Nov 8, 2004, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Simon:
I read that article already, but as far as I understand it doesn't specifically mention if Spotlight's content search is identical with the old (going back to the OS 9 days) content search or if it has been totally rewritten...

The article explicitly says it's SearchKit which is exactly what OS 9 had.

CharlesS · Nov 8, 2004, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
Had a chance to play with this build today, and I did a couple of test that may be interesting to some people (SYN in particular).

If you do in the terminal:

cd Desktop
touch foo

The file 'foo' appears on the Desktop instantly.

If you then do

rm foo

the file 'foo' disappears instantly. Very cool.

There are lots more things that I noticed, but I thought I'd mention this seeing as it's been an irritant to me and others for a while now.

Unfortunately, I remember people saying that the Panther betas had this also, and it was removed by the final release.

goMac · Nov 8, 2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
The article explicitly says it's SearchKit which is exactly what OS 9 had.

I don't know anything for sure, but I would be surprised. Anything ending in "Kit" is usually OS X. The term (blank)Kit was a carry over from OpenStep.

michaelb · Nov 8, 2004, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by goMac:
The term (blank)Kit was a carry over from OpenStep.

Mac OS X blankets - are they like the iPod socks?

Faux panther or tiger fur blanket... Me want!

MPMoriarty · Nov 9, 2004, 12:20 AM

Well I read the article and I understand that SpotLight is basically three things:

1) Enhanced SearchKit to handle indexing file names and content.

2) SpotLight meta data indexer to index all the supported meta data from files on a system

3) The SpotLight meta data store to hold all of the data after it has been indexed.

Is this right?

Mike

Webscreamer · Nov 9, 2004, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by michaelb:
Mac OS X blankets - are they like the iPod socks?

Faux panther or tiger fur blanket... Me want!

Simon · 03:28 AM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
The article explicitly says it's SearchKit which is exactly what OS 9 had.

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. I didn't know that OS 9's content search engine was called 'SearchKit'.

No need to get rough though...

And my questions 2 and 4 are still not answered by that page btw.

TETENAL · Nov 9, 2004, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. I didn't know that OS 9's content search engine was called 'SearchKit'.

Uh, sorry. I was wrong. Everybody can make mistakes. Bush just can't admit to them.

Simon · Nov 9, 2004, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Everybody can make mistakes. Bush just can't admit to them.

Bratwurstbratger�t? Ziemlich geil.

SYN · Nov 9, 2004, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
Had a chance to play with this build today, and I did a couple of test that may be interesting to some people (SYN in particular).

If you do in the terminal:

cd Desktop
touch foo

The file 'foo' appears on the Desktop instantly.

If you then do

rm foo

the file 'foo' disappears instantly. Very cool.

There are lots more things that I noticed, but I thought I'd mention this seeing as it's been an irritant to me and others for a while now.

wow. I didn't hope for it anymore

Now if item sizes were updated real time, I'd be in heaven

Catfish_Man · Nov 9, 2004, 01:45 PM

SearchKit was known as V-Twin prior to 10.3. I forget which system it was introduced in.

TETENAL · Nov 9, 2004, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
SearchKit was known as V-Twin prior to 10.3. I forget which system it was introduced in.

You are right. See here:

Apple Information Access Toolkit (AIAT)
An object-oriented information access engine, available in Classic Mac OS, that contains a collection of tools for indexing, searching, and analyzing large volumes of documents. Search Kit is the Mac OS X implementation of the AIAT. Formerly known by its code name V-Twin.

V-Twin was introduced some time during OS 8.

lookmark · Nov 9, 2004, 05:28 PM

I'd like to hear more about Safari 2.0.

Faster, yes, but how much faster? Fast as Firefox 1.0?

dopik · Nov 9, 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by lookmark:
I'd like to hear more about Safari 2.0.

Faster, yes, but how much faster? Fast as Firefox 1.0?

I'd would also like to hear how fast it is.

Do

Catfish_Man · Nov 9, 2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by lookmark:
I'd like to hear more about Safari 2.0.

Faster, yes, but how much faster? Fast as Firefox 1.0?

Faster, ime. Firefox seems similar to Camino for me, which is barely faster than Safari 1.2.4

Busemann · Nov 9, 2004, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
Firefox seems similar to Camino for me, which is barely faster than Safari 1.2.4

How do you bench this? Or is it just that it "feels" faster?

TETENAL · Nov 9, 2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Busemann:
How do you bench this? Or is it just that it "feels" faster?

lookmark · Nov 9, 2004, 06:33 PM

Hmm, Tet, I hope you're showing that graph as example of sample browser benchmarks... not as proof that Safari is still king of the hill, as that graph is seriously out of date. Netscape? IE? Camino .7? C'mon. I think there's pretty much widespread agreement -- whatever your opinion on the overall user experience -- that Camino .8 and Firefox 1.0 feel anywhere from a bit to quite a bit "snappier" than Safari 1.2.4.

Glad to hear that Safari 2 feels faster, or just as fast as Firefox/Camino. Any benchmarks, however rough, would also be welcome...

Superchicken · Nov 9, 2004, 10:29 PM

I for one am SERIOUSLY looking forward to the new iCal features. As a student and someone who's just learning to organize his life, this is GREAT! I'm so glad I'll be able to publish my calendars too!

Now lets just look forward to what Panter + iLife 05 will be like!

qnxde · Nov 10, 2004, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Unfortunately, I remember people saying that the Panther betas had this also, and it was removed by the final release.

http://www.manyetas.com/findersync.html

This replicates this functionality flawlessly for me, and I've never seen it use any amount of CPU time. (it's always at 0.0% CPU every time I've seen it in a top listing)

midwinter · Nov 10, 2004, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by Superchicken:
I for one am SERIOUSLY looking forward to the new iCal features. As a student and someone who's just learning to organize his life, this is GREAT! I'm so glad I'll be able to publish my calendars too!

Now lets just look forward to what Panter + iLife 05 will be like!

I've not heard anything about the new iCal. Any specifics?

awaspaas · Nov 10, 2004, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
Had a chance to play with this build today, and I did a couple of test that may be interesting to some people (SYN in particular).

If you do in the terminal:

cd Desktop
touch foo

The file 'foo' appears on the Desktop instantly.

If you then do

rm foo

the file 'foo' disappears instantly. Very cool.

There are lots more things that I noticed, but I thought I'd mention this seeing as it's been an irritant to me and others for a while now.

Unfortunately the feature only works on files named "foo"

graveguy · Nov 10, 2004, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by awaspaas:
Unfortunately the feature only works on files named "foo"

And 'bar'...don't forget 'bar'!!!

Etymology

Superchicken · Nov 10, 2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by midwinter:
I've not heard anything about the new iCal. Any specifics?

Read the first page of this thread.

Tsilou B. · Nov 10, 2004, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by lookmark:
I think there's pretty much widespread agreement -- whatever your opinion on the overall user experience -- that Camino .8 and Firefox 1.0 feel anywhere from a bit to quite a bit "snappier" than Safari 1.2.4.

That may be true for fast Macs, it's certainly not true on my old iMac G3/450. Safari launches much faster than Firefox or Camino, and if I open a tab group of 10 pages, Safari stays responsive and I can switch between tabs while they load whereas Firefox and Camino both display the spinning wheel for quite some time.

dopik · Nov 10, 2004, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
That may be true for fast Macs, it's certainly not true on my old iMac G3/450. Safari launches much faster than Firefox or Camino, and if I open a tab group of 10 pages, Safari stays responsive and I can switch between tabs while they load whereas Firefox and Camino both display the spinning wheel for quite some time.

It is the opposite for me. PowerBook G4 12' Rev. A RAM 640Mo...

Do

passmaster16 · Nov 22, 2004, 05:08 PM

What's the chances of Tiger eliminating .trashes and .ds_store resource files left on Windows network shares? Probably slim to none I'm sure... It becomes quite annoying to clean them up on servers or even on my usb flash drive which I swap from my Mac to my PC.

SMacTech · Nov 22, 2004, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by passmaster16:
What's the chances of Tiger eliminating .trashes and .ds_store resource files left on Windows network shares? Probably slim to none I'm sure... It becomes quite annoying to clean them up on servers or even on my usb flash drive which I swap from my Mac to my PC.

Add .metadata folders to the list.

passmaster16 · Nov 22, 2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by SMacTech:
Add .metadata folders to the list.

ah, yes forgot about those...i've been submitting feedback to Apple concerning this since jaguar, I really don't see how Apple expects Windows admins to even consider allowing Macs on the network when they litter the shares with resource files...