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jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 12:13 AM

Here's what I did, and what I encourage. $100 for iTools is too much for me, and probably 95% of the people out there. But the service does have value, and Apple is probably committed to ending their free service. Basically, I sent email to Apple about .Mac that said, in short:

1) Offer tiered service starting at $0 for crappy email service. (.Mac email)
2) The next level of service is good email plus 10-20MB iDisk/ webhosting space. $20/year. (.Mac Classic)
3) Next tier has more web space (50MB) for same services as above ($50/year) .Mac+
4) Finally, at $75/year, the iTools that exist. .Mac Pro

So everyone send an email/ feedback that says:

I will pay $20/year for .Mac email plus a 20MB for iDisk/ webhosting. I will not pay $100/year for .Mac as currently proposed.

If Apple gets a few thousand of these, you can bet Apple will respond.

skyman · Jul 18, 2002, 12:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jrome:
Here's what I did, and what I encourage. $100 for iTools is too much for me, and probably 95% of the people out there. But the service does have value, and Apple is probably committed to ending their free service. Basically, I sent email to Apple about .Mac that said, in short:

1) Offer tiered service starting at $0 for crappy email service. (.Mac email)
2) The next level of service is good email plus 10-20MB iDisk/ webhosting space. $20/year. (.Mac Classic)
3) Next tier has more web space (50MB) for same services as above ($50/year) .Mac+
4) Finally, at $75/year, the iTools that exist. .Mac Pro

So everyone send an email/ feedback that says:

I will pay $20/year for .Mac email plus a 20MB for iDisk/ webhosting. I will not pay $100/year for .Mac as currently proposed.

If Apple gets a few thousand of these, you can bet Apple will respond.<hr /></blockquote>DONE!

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 08:37 AM

A: Hi. I see you are selling that there block of cheese for $12.99. Well, I won't pay it.
B: Uhm. OK.
A: I'll give you $6.00.
B: Huh?
A: $6.00.
B: Uh. No.
A: Why?
B: I. Am. Not. Sure I understand the question.
A: Why? Why will you not sell it to me for what I say?
B: Well, I could give you the real answer involving dairy farmers feeding their families, keeping up with the enormous expense of raising and caring for dairy cattle, producing product, competition, distribution and middlemen, profit and loss, accountablility to investors and all that, but that would just be a lesson in basic economics and I have a sneaking suspicion it would be entirely lost on you.
A: Does this mean you will not sell me the cheese for $6.00?
B: That would be the short answer, yes. I will not sell you the cheese for $6.00. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

hellooperator · Jul 18, 2002, 08:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by maxelson:
A: Hi. I see you are selling that there block of cheese for $12.99. Well, I won't pay it.
B: Uhm. OK.
A: I'll give you $6.00.
B: Huh?
A: $6.00.
B: Uh. No.
A: Why?
B: I. Am. Not. Sure I understand the question.
A: Why? Why will you not sell it to me for what I say?
B: Well, I could give you the real answer involving dairy farmers feeding their families, keeping up with the enormous expense of raising and caring for dairy cattle, producing product, competition, distribution and middlemen, profit and loss, accountablility to investors and all that, but that would just be a lesson in basic economics and I have a sneaking suspicion it would be entirely lost on you.
A: Does this mean you will not sell me the cheese for $6.00?
B: That would be the short answer, yes. I will not sell you the cheese for $6.00. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>C: I would like to buy half a block of cheese for $6.50.

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 08:46 AM

B: The deal is package. $12.99. Unless you'd like me to pay the guy who cuts the cheese and sharpens the knife. In which case... lemme see... nope. Still $12.99.

KaptainKaya · Jul 18, 2002, 08:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by maxelson:
B: The deal is package. $12.99. Unless you'd like me to pay the guy who cuts the cheese...<hr /></blockquote>

[ 07-18-2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: KaptainKaya ]

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 08:54 AM

My words are chosen carefully. I am a highly trained professional...

jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 09:30 AM

What the hell are you talking about. Did I actually end up on CheeseNN by accident? Which would be fine, I like cheese, too. I jst get the sense that margins are a lot lower on cheese than they are on bits. If the cheese costs $5 (including all costs), Mr. Cheese Seller would have to sell 6 times as much at $6 than he would at $12 to make a profit. But if the cheese costs only $1, Mr Cheese Seller needs to sell a little more than twice as much.

Now, I dunno about the price elasticity of cheese; it's probably not that great. So I don't think Mr. Cheese Seller will even double his sales of cheese, assuming $12 is a fair price. So I suggest that Mr. Cheese Seller keep his prices high.

On the other hand, Apple should offer more options for .Mac.

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 09:34 AM

Do you take the bible literally as well?

jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 10:26 AM

You and me both, apparently.

el chupacabra · Jul 18, 2002, 10:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by maxelson:
A: Hi. I see you are selling that there block of cheese for $12.99. Well, I won't pay it.
B: Uhm. OK.
A: I'll give you $6.00.
B: Huh?
A: $6.00.
B: Uh. No.
A: Why?
B: I. Am. Not. Sure I understand the question.
A: Why? Why will you not sell it to me for what I say?
B: Well, I could give you the real answer involving dairy farmers feeding their families, keeping up with the enormous expense of raising and caring for dairy cattle, producing product, competition, distribution and middlemen, profit and loss, accountablility to investors and all that, but that would just be a lesson in basic economics and I have a sneaking suspicion it would be entirely lost on you.
A: Does this mean you will not sell me the cheese for $6.00
B: That would be the short answer, yes. I will not sell you the cheese for $6.00. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>A: Hi. I see you are selling that there block of cheese for $99.99. Well, I won't pay it.

B: Uhm. OK.
A: I'll give you $40.00.
B: Huh?
A: $40.00.
B: Uh. No.
A: Why?
B: I. Am. Not. Sure I understand the question.
A: Why? Why will you not sell it to me for only 30% more than what its worth? I'm still willing to be ripped off but I dont have $100.
B: Well, I could give you the real answer involving multi billionares, top exectutives, board of directors etc.. Settling for no less than 3,000,000 a year (the actual average being 15 mil), keeping up with the enormous expense of their new jaguar or jet airplane every week, raising their family in an estate the size of the MGM Grand Hotel, producing product (cheap labor in hong kong), losing to competition, starving the middlemen, EXTREME profit, unaccountablility to investors and all that(i.e. stock is going down), but that would just be a lesson in basic economics and I have a sneaking suspicion it would be entirely lost on you. Why am I even explaining this? Your just my employee, the one who does all the work while I sit back and collect $$$$$$$ on your hard earned labor from a business which I inherited.
A: Does this mean you will not sell me the cheese for $40.00? ? I mean cheese isnt even your main product...you sell computers...so why are you ripping people off on a small block of cheese? Is it because of the color of the cheese...the blue food coloring?

B: That would be the short answer, yes. I will not sell you the cheese for $40.00 Go starve to death for all I care as for me, The great MEEE needs 12 new jet skis.
A: Then I will go to Wal Mart down the street where the cheese is cheaper and the employees are payed more, And you will continue to have the crumby sales figures and market share that you do

Good day

[ 07-18-2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: el chupacabra ]

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 11:03 AM

And you enjoy your little trip to walmart. I am so sorry it wasn't what you wanted.
(and I do not use this smiley lightly because i find it most annoying BUT)

jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 01:10 PM

Tell Apple that you will pay $20/year for current iTools if you actually would. Apple can take these comments into account then decide whether or not to lower the price.

The pointlessness of the cheese analogy has been made pretty clear. I don't know how Apple will respond; I'm just suggesting that you ask. Companies respond to consumer requests. To beat the cheese to deayh one last time consider this: what if 100 people asked cheeseman for a lower price. Would he respond? If it turned out to b more profitable for him, he would. Ask the cheeseman to lower his price, sit back, and see what happens.

$20 to save iTools.

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 01:27 PM

Oh, jeez. It is just cheese. I could have easily used a car analogy. Or Apartment rent. Or geegaws. Or milk. Or porkbellies. Or bubble gum. A hooker. A massage therapist.The premise is the same. One wishes to have a service/ product. Vendor will supply customer with service/ product. Vendor will be compensated for product/ service. If customer wishes the product, he will pay the vendor's price or seek alternatives.
What? You think this is an arbitrary number? Do you NOT think they considered rebellion? DO you think they do not know who their customers are? Do you think they do not recognize the track record of harsh and intense criticism? Did you think they were not prepared for this backlash?
Here's what I think happened
OK. We can't afford to do this any more. Like lifetime free tech support. It is a drain. We need to charge. WHat do we charge and what do we offer? What does it cost us now?
Calculations taken.
OK. Add the standard 30% Add in this, this, this and this.
Or your scenario (I assume): I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY! MORE! MORE! <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />
So. Seek an alternative, already.
What was the choice. Charge or kill the service? You'll probably get your email only. But I am still sure you'll have to pay. Because it costs THEM.

chris v · Jul 18, 2002, 01:32 PM

Mmmm.... <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=45;t=001111#000000" target="_blank">Cheese...</a>

Just waxing nostalgic...

CV

[ 07-18-2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: chris v ]

jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 01:57 PM

Hmmm. 64 slices of American Cheese.
Maxelson, don't tell me you never haggled? It's like the scene from "The life of Brian" when the venodr didn't know what to do withhout Brian haggling.
Of course Apple has done research. That;'s fine. The fact remains, I won't pay $100 for .Mac, and I'll move on if that's the only option they offer. If they offer .Mac classic for $20, I'll pay. Apple can take this information and decide what to do with it. If thy ignore it, fine, I'll move on w/o .Mac.
C'mon, Apple expects us to haggle!

maxelson · Jul 18, 2002, 03:20 PM

Plead, sure. OK. Haggle, well, I guess we are mudding in details. I will be very interested to see what happens.
And I hate haggling. Car dealership? Ugh. It is why I buy Saturns. I'll bargain hunt, but I will not haggle. Makes for a tough time shopping in Mexico, I'll tell ya...

scaught · Jul 18, 2002, 04:03 PM

haggle? HAGGLE? hahahaha

you haggle with a booth owner at a swap meet for a crappy screwdriver set. you cant really do the same thing with a well respected (maybe not around here at this time) multinational.

maxelson, you made your point quite well. tis a shame such beautiful prose seems to waste on SOME people.

jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 04:19 PM

I hve haggled for my car. I haggled for the web-hosting I got for my Mom (they charged me $80, I told him when I signed up that it was $60/year with automatic renewal, and they never norified me of a price increase). I haggled $100/month off of my apartment rent. I haggled to get an LA phone number for my cell phone when I lived in LA.
I understand the aversion to haggling; but I do not share it. Haggling, also known by its more corporate synonym, negotiating, is often beneficial to buyer and seller. Sometimes it's more trouble than it's worth, and some people hate the whole concept-- thus you have fine businesses like Saturn, and mass, fixed-price retailers like Costco.
Just last month, I haggled $70 off of a Sony CLIE NR70. Most of this haggling was quite easy (excpet the car); for my apartment, I just told the agent that $1800/month was probably too much (my budget was already stretched). The price came down. I sent 2 emails to get refunded for the web-hosting fees. For the Clie, I just showed a competing ad.
I hope Apple offers the option I propose; if they don't, I'll move on and I'll miss the service a little, especially the publishing of iPhoto websites in 1-step.
Haggling even got me a signing bonus at my job. How about that!

starfleetX · Jul 18, 2002, 04:34 PM

<img src="http://brad.project-think.com/images/cheese-power.jpg" alt=" - " />

M�s queso, por favor.

theolein · Jul 18, 2002, 05:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by maxelson:
A: Hi. I see you are selling that there block of cheese for $12.99. Well, I won't pay it.
B: Uhm. OK.
A: I'll give you $6.00.
B: Huh?
A: $6.00.
B: Uh. No.
A: Why?
B: I. Am. Not. Sure I understand the question.
A: Why? Why will you not sell it to me for what I say?
B: Well, I could give you the real answer involving dairy farmers feeding their families, keeping up with the enormous expense of raising and caring for dairy cattle, producing product, competition, distribution and middlemen, profit and loss, accountablility to investors and all that, but that would just be a lesson in basic economics and I have a sneaking suspicion it would be entirely lost on you.
A: Does this mean you will not sell me the cheese for $6.00?
B: That would be the short answer, yes. I will not sell you the cheese for $6.00. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>MacSheep:My company is better than yours.
X86Sheep:Isn't.
MacSheep:Is.
WinSheep:Why?
MacSheep:We have the best computers and the best OS.
WinSheep:Why?
MacSheep:Steve says so.

Edit:Jrome, you have made a very good proposition. Why some people *want* to pay more, even if they don't have to is beyond me.

[ 07-18-2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: theolein ]

jrome · Jul 18, 2002, 08:43 PM

Wow, I never thought my post would lead to such interesting discussions of cheese.
My point is only this: Apple will not respond to people asking them to keep it free; they obviously anticipated this, and Apple probably does not want to cater to all the freeloaders. The objective of my post was to provide Apple with an alternative that would be attractive to Apple by itself; I'd pay $20/year for the current iTools, and I bet a ton of others would as well. If Apple thinks they can make more money selling at $20 a pop than they can at $100 a pop, you can bet they'll offer it as an option.
For those who want it to be free forever, think of it this way. What if Apple introduced all the iApps today and wanted $100/year for the 4 of 'em + the iTools they have. I'd probably pay. Since I get iApps for free, I won't pay the $100.
Maybe if Apple comes out with 1 or 2 more great apps like those, the $100/year will seem like a bargain. Including 1 QT pro license would be a great start.
Apple will get some $$ from me; I already ordered X.II, and I might spring for QT Pro. But I doubt I'll use iTools; $100/year is too much for stuff I don't need.
But I'd gladly pay $20.

milhous · Jul 18, 2002, 11:15 PM

I enjoy Kraft Singles myself

<img src="http://www.kraftfoods.com/corporate/art/section/about/grocery/singles.gif" alt=" - " />

Usually yellow preferred, but white will also be acceptable.

But i agree with jrome, tiered access would've been the best thing to do. However, iTools as is had a sort of tier system, except that was only for iDisk space.

The e-mail's been sent.

milhous · Jul 18, 2002, 11:19 PM

Also in case anyone wishes to leave feedback for the .Mac team, the link is below:

<a href="http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html" target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html</a>

maxelson · Jul 19, 2002, 07:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jrome:
Wow, I never thought my post would lead to such interesting discussions of cheese.
<hr /></blockquote>jrome, man... it's ALL about the cheese. Blessed are the cheesemakers. Behold the POWER of cheese. That Ti 800 with the 20GB iPod don't mean squat without theres a fine lump of vintage cheddar to set alongside. Gimme Stilton with that .mac, and I'll pay $200 a year.
Cheese.
Where would we be without it? Oh, god. The horror. I can't even IMAGINE. Don't WANT to.

jrome · Jul 20, 2002, 12:14 AM

Man, I guess I don't frequent MacNN often enough to understand this cheese thing. Maybe if they change the name from .Mac to .Cheese, there'll be a better response. Then you could sign up as cheddar and be [email protected] . If they offered that for $20/ year, I'd jump on it.