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Is Christianity polytheistic?
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smacintush
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:22 PM
 
Yep, another religious thread…

Depending on which Christian tradition you adhere to, I see the following possibilities:

1. The trinity. How exactly is the concept of the trinity any different than pantheistic pagan beliefs? I mean, it's different, but the underlying concept is the same. Separate manifestations of the whole. All separate, yet all one.

2. Satan. It seems to me that if you have a…being if you will…that has power and influence in some form and worship of that being has significant results then that is by definition a deity.

3. Same with Mary.

So it seems to me that depending on the denomination you may have a minimum of TWO deities, and as many as FIVE.
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:25 PM
 
1) 1x1x1 = 3

2) -1

3) No relevance.
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MacosNerd
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
1. The trinity. How exactly is the concept of the trinity any different than pantheistic pagan beliefs? I mean, it's different, but the underlying concept is the same. Separate manifestations of the whole. All separate, yet all one.
One creator who has decided to manifest himself in a triune manner. There's not 3 seperate different beings but rather one. I'll be the first to say that I cannot fully comprehend this but that doesn't make it any less true and I believe by faith by what the Bible says.

2. Satan. It seems to me that if you have a…being if you will…that has power and influence in some form and worship of that being has significant results then that is by definition a deity.
So if I bow down to a judge, or a rich person, they are to be considered deities because they have power and influence . No, satan is a created being who wanted to be like God and tried to usurp his power. Since rebelling his main desire aside from having us worship him, is to try to mess up God's plans. Of course that will have the same result as his rebellion - utter failure.

3. Same with Mary.
This is a catholic thing and in some circles they are (wrongfully) saying she is a coredemptrix meaning on par with Jesus. This is heresy and not supported in the Bible. The Bible clearly states that she was a normal girl and had no special powers and there is only one redeemer and intercessor
     
smacintush  (op)
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
One creator who has decided to manifest himself in a triune manner. There's not 3 seperate different beings but rather one. I'll be the first to say that I cannot fully comprehend this but that doesn't make it any less true and I believe by faith by what the Bible says.
This is why I said: "depending on which Christian tradition you adhere to." Some believe that the there are three separate individual manifestations who are one god.

So if I bow down to a judge, or a rich person, they are to be considered deities because they have power and influence . No, satan is a created being who wanted to be like God and tried to usurp his power. Since rebelling his main desire aside from having us worship him, is to try to mess up God's plans. Of course that will have the same result as his rebellion - utter failure.
The supposed influence of satan goes beyond that of a mortal man. Bad example. And being created by God doesn't make him any less of a deity.

This is a catholic thing and in some circles they are (wrongfully) saying she is a coredemptrix meaning on par with Jesus. This is heresy and not supported in the Bible. The Bible clearly states that she was a normal girl and had no special powers and there is only one redeemer and intercessor
Nonetheless, Catholics are Christians.
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:55 PM
 
I've questioned the trinity before. It's either a paradox, which is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned, or its monotheistic because it says it is.
     
MacosNerd
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Jan 31, 2008, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
This is why I said: "depending on which Christian tradition you adhere to." Some believe that the there are three separate individual manifestations who are one god.
Virtually every denomination believes in the Trinity because its a basic concept within the Bible. 3 manifestations does not mean there are three Gods. Here's another example. You have a physical body, and a soul. Does that mean there's two of you?

The supposed influence of satan goes beyond that of a mortal man. Bad example. And being created by God doesn't make him any less of a deity.
doesn't matter, power does not equate deity. There is only one God and he created everything. It matters not if people bow down and worship angels. That does not make them deities

Nonetheless, Catholics are Christians.
Not necessarily. A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus as his savior acknowledging that there's no other way to achieve salvation. The folks who believe in the coredemtrix stuff are catholics but are not Christians because they believe there's another way to heaven. also belonging to a denomination does not mean you are a Christian, just a member of the denomination. A person can be a Baptist, go to church for years and years yet, reject Jesus and his offer for salvation. That means he's not Christian.

There's a thing called cultural Christianity. People who go to church, call themselves Christians because they go to church but reject his offer of salvation.
     
iranfromthezoo
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Jan 31, 2008, 09:17 PM
 
The easiest way to explain the Trinity is like an orange. If you look at an orange you have the seeds in the middle, the good stuff that you eat (what do we call them) and then the skin. They are all considered the orange but have different parts and missions to accomplish...you know the skin protects the orange, the meat of it is the good stuff and the seed reproduces the orange for someone else to enjoy.

Satan is not on the same level of a deity. Satan is not like God which is Omnipresent. Satan cannot be everywhere all the time. He isn't all powerful like God. I'd even say he isn't all knowing but that is debatable and a different topic of discussion.

I'll have to agree with MacosNerd on the Catholicism thing.

Does that make sense?
     
Chuckit
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Jan 31, 2008, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
Not necessarily. A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus as his savior acknowledging that there's no other way to achieve salvation.
I don't think bringing your personal ideology in will do anything but muddy the waters. From a theological standpoint, Catholicism belongs in the Christian family of religions. In fact, it's the oldest extant member of that family.

Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
The folks who believe in the coredemtrix stuff are catholics but are not Christians because they believe there's another way to heaven.
Even among the Mary-worshippers, I don't know anybody who looks at it like, "Well, OK, I've pissed off Jesus, but there's always Mary to go to."
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iranfromthezoo
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Jan 31, 2008, 09:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I don't think bringing your personal ideology in will do anything but muddy the waters. From a theological standpoint, Catholicism belongs in the Christian family of religions. In fact, it's the oldest extant member of that family."

I agree Catholicism belongs to the Christian family. But MacosNerd saying that Jesus is the only to heaven is not a personal ideology , it is in fact Christian theology(i.e. John14:6). Understand I know this is treking into murky waters and I will not say anything inflammatory but calling something that is plainly stated in the Bible is not a personal ideology but a reenforcement of beliefs.

I agree everyone has their own belief system and if that's working for you that is fine. (not trying to start a flame war, so sorry Chuck if this came across as that way.)
     
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Jan 31, 2008, 09:47 PM
 
Co-Redemptrix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Co-Redemptrix is a title of the Blessed Virgin Mary which has not been approved the Catholic Church.
1x1x1=1
45/47
     
MacosNerd
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I don't think bringing your personal ideology in will do anything but muddy the waters. From a theological standpoint, Catholicism belongs in the Christian family of religions. In fact, it's the oldest extant member of that family.
No argument that's Christian denomination. Yet that does not mean that someone who sits in a pew for 40 years at St. Johns is a Christian. Yes the denomination is a Christian denomination and yes the oldest one. That doesn't detract from the Biblical foundation that to be a Christian you need to accept Jesus Christ.

Edit: I already said this once but I'll reiterate it for clarity. The same exact thing can be said for Baptists, Methodists or any other denomination. Just attending church does mean you are a Christian (The Biblical definition of a Christian)

Even among the Mary-worshippers, I don't know anybody who looks at it like, "Well, OK, I've pissed off Jesus, but there's always Mary to go to."
I wasn't saying that they thought of Jesus less but rather putting Mary on the same level as Jesus. That's heresy. Point out the Bible Passage that says Mary was sinless, or Mary was God, or Mary rose from the dead. You cannot because its not true.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:37 PM
 
1. The trinity. How exactly is the concept of the trinity any different than pantheistic pagan beliefs? I mean, it's different, but the underlying concept is the same. Separate manifestations of the whole. All separate, yet all one.
Three incarnations, one being. Many other religions have similar beliefs; that there is only one creator god, but that it has many faces.

2. Satan. It seems to me that if you have a…being if you will…that has power and influence in some form and worship of that being has significant results then that is by definition a deity.
According to legend, it works for YHWH and it's called the Adversary. Is the Adversary worshiped? By some it is, but not by traditional Christians. Is it a god? Much like other beings of this type, yes, in certain ways it is.

3. Same with Mary.
The vast majority of Christians revere Mary, they may even pray to her for guidance, like they would to other saints, but "worship" is probably pushing it too far.
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Shaddim
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Nonetheless, Catholics are Christians.
That may be, but they can still be wrong in the eyes of the rest of Christendom.
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Shaddim
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo View Post
Satan is not on the same level of a deity. Satan is not like God which is Omnipresent. Satan cannot be everywhere all the time. He isn't all powerful like God. I'd even say he isn't all knowing but that is debatable and a different topic of discussion.
Historically, not all deities are considered omnipotent. On the contrary, such a concept is quite alien to other religions. In fact, in the myths, most are simply more powerful than man, and their power varied greatly.
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:42 PM
 
What is the definition of deity that we are using here? Ultimately we're arguing over definitions here, it seems.
     
smacintush  (op)
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
Virtually every denomination believes in the Trinity because its a basic concept within the Bible.
I know of Seventh Day Pentecostals that don't believe in the trinity at all. To them Jesus IS THE ONE AND ONLY God.

Then there is the distinction between the trinity and the triunity.

As someone said, this only muddies the waters and there is no point in arguing who is "right" about it.

3 manifestations does not mean there are three Gods. Here's another example. You have a physical body, and a soul. Does that mean there's two of you?
As I said, there are many religions who believe that there is ONE divine "whatever you wanna call it" and they worship their DIFFERENT Gods as manifestations of the SINGLE divine. This is exactly the same concept as the trinity IMO, except Christians don't think of it that way.

doesn't matter, power does not equate deity. There is only one God and he created everything. It matters not if people bow down and worship angels. That does not make them deities
It comes down to what definition of "deity" you accept. Satan is and eternal "being" that has the power to influence our lives. Sure sounds like a deity to me.
( Last edited by smacintush; Feb 1, 2008 at 01:07 AM. )
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smacintush  (op)
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Historically, not all deities are considered omnipotent. On the contrary, such a concept is quite alien to other religions. In fact, in the myths, most are simply more powerful than man, and their power varied greatly.
Yes, exactly.

Being a god doesn't necessarily mean being The Supreme Ultimate God.
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smacintush  (op)
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The vast majority of Christians revere Mary, they may even pray to her for guidance, like they would to other saints, but "worship" is probably pushing it too far.
Yes you may be right. That was lazy posting on my part.

Nonetheless, Mary IS prayed to by certain Christians. This may also count her as a deity. Worship isn't a pre-requisite for whether one is a god or not.

Then again there is this. Take it for what you will.

As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I practiced Mary worship for many years without realizing it. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by good people, sincere people that I trusted. I prayed rosaries and wore a scapular and engaged in other “devotions” which I honestly thought were good and pleasing to God. Because of my lack of knowledge of the Bible and of Church history, I honestly had no idea that I was actually worshipping Mary.
If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her.
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Feb 1, 2008, 02:12 AM
 
Yes, I beleive that christianity is polytheistic in that we believe in more than one god existing in the universe.

As a Mormon, we believe in God the Eternal Father, in his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Three distinct beings, one purpose. We pray to God the Father in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ.

Aside from my personal belief in Joseph Smith seeing Jesus standing next to God the Father, Jesus is seen praying to his Father, sitting on the right side of his Father, and being spoken of by his Father in the Bible... to say they are the same being is purposefully limiting your knowledge. Tunnel vision of a sort.

Aside from this, the Bible clearly states on many occassions that there are many other gods as well (see here: The Skeptical Review Online - Print Edition - 1990-2002), though God the Father is who we are commanded to worship.

It's easy to take one verse in the Bible and say "see, this is what the Bible says", but if you open the whole Bible up you get quite a different story.
     
Don Pickett
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Feb 1, 2008, 02:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
Virtually every denomination believes in the Trinity because its a basic concept within the Bible. 3 manifestations does not mean there are three Gods.
Virtually every Western denomination. The various Eastern denominations do not accept the Trinity in the literal sense of the Western denominations, the disagreement about a literal, Western interpretation versus a metaphorical/mystical, Eastern interpretation was one of the final things which drove the split between Eastern and Western Christianity.

Here's another example. You have a physical body, and a soul. Does that mean there's two of you?.
I think this analogy misses a bit: you're assuming the soul exists as a thing which can be quantified.
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Feb 1, 2008, 02:29 AM
 
I personally do consider trinitarian Christianity to be polytheistic and that it therefore fails to satisfy the 7 laws of Noah, but I think trinitarian Christianity is still obviously preferable to non-Abrahamic religion or atheism.

torsoboy, I'm interested in your Mormon outlook. I have some Mormon friends including a favorite professor. They are never up front like you have been in this thread concerning the polytheistic appearance of Mormonism. So I have to ask, do many Mormons really recognize their faith as polytheistic? And if so, how do they reconcile that belief with their acceptance of the strict monotheism of the Hebrew Scriptures?

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Feb 1, 2008, 02:43 AM
 
Doesn't this whole discussion strike you as somewhat irrelevant? I mean, you're arguing over the definitions of words, not anything of any real substance.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 02:45 AM
 
Trust me peeb, you wouldn't understand.

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Feb 1, 2008, 02:46 AM
 
Speaking from my experience, most Mormons make a distinction between polytheism and believing that there are other creatures like God who rule over other kingdoms. In Mormonism, the god they call Elohim is the only god of our world.

I think it's also worth noting that the Hebrew scriptures do not necessarily rule out the existence of other supernatural beings; it's just that Israel is not to worship any of them because the Lord is their God and he is more powerful than anything else.
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Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 02:56 AM
 
Speaking from my experience, most Mormons make a distinction between polytheism and believing that there are other creatures like God who rule over other kingdoms. In Mormonism, the god they call Elohim is the only god of our world.
Interesting. Do Mormons think Elokim is distinctly different from the Tetragrammaton?

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I think it's also worth noting that the Hebrew scriptures do not necessarily rule out the existence of other supernatural beings; it's just that Israel is not to worship any of them because the Lord is their God and he is more powerful than anything else.
One could obtain such a view from superficial reading of some passages, but that's not really a tenable position given the totality of the Scriptures. I made up a list back in college for a religion class to challenge that line of thought, actually.

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Feb 1, 2008, 03:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Trust me peeb, you wouldn't understand.
You think I would not understand why you're arguing over the definitions of words, not anything of any real substance? Well, try me, unless you don't have any response, that is...
     
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Feb 1, 2008, 03:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Interesting. Do Mormons think Elokim is distinctly different from the Tetragrammaton?
Interesting that you should ask. Yes, they do. The general belief is that "Elohim" usually refers to God the Father and the Tetragrammaton generally means the preexistent Jesus acting as part of the Godhead. The Godhead is not generally thought to be polytheistic because inasfar as Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also considered to be gods, they are also considered to be one with the Father.

Also interesting, as long as we're getting into the murkier depths of Mormonism, is the idea of the Heavenly Mother. It's not official doctrine and none of the current leadership will touch it with a 10-foot pole, but many early Mormon leaders (and a lot of modern members) seem to have believed that God has a wife.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
One could obtain such a view from superficial reading of some passages, but that's not really a tenable position given the totality of the Scriptures. I made up a list back in college for a religion class to challenge that line of thought, actually.
I agree it's not fully tenable that the Hebrew scriptures endorse the idea of other gods, but I think you can take a large portion of them without contradicting the idea. Personally, I think some of the Bible's authors believed the other gods they were writing about were real and others didn't, but I doubt most Jews would agree with me.
( Last edited by Chuckit; Feb 1, 2008 at 03:33 AM. )
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Feb 1, 2008, 03:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
One could obtain such a view from superficial reading of some passages, but that's not really a tenable position given the totality of the Scriptures. I made up a list back in college for a religion class to challenge that line of thought, actually.
It's quite clear that the writers of parts of the OT believe in many gods, and flatter Yahweh with the conceit that he is the most powerful. Now, you can make the case that this disappears later in scripture, but it is certainly there at times.
     
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Feb 1, 2008, 03:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Interesting that you should ask. Yes, they do. The general belief is that "Elohim" usually refers to God the Father and the Tetragrammaton generally means the preexistent Jesus acting as part of the Godhead.
And when both names are combined what do they think then?

The Godhead is not generally thought to be polytheistic because inasfar as Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also considered to be gods, they are also considered to be one with the Father.
Interesting, but then I don't understand the compulsion to separate them in the first place or to worship a form (if the personage of Jesus is worshiped by Mormons).

Also interesting, as long as we're getting into the murkier depths of Mormonism, is the idea of the Heavenly Mother. It's not official doctrine and none of the current leadership will touch it with a 10-foot pole, but many early Mormon leaders (and a lot of modern members) seem to have believed that God has a wife.
Interesting. I imagine you already know that Judaism teaches there are feminine qualities of God but certainly no consort with Him (according to Judaism).

I agree it's not fully tenable that the Hebrew scriptures endorse the idea of other gods, but I think you can take a large portion of them without contradicting the idea. Personally, I think some of the Bible's authors believed the other gods they were writing about were real and others didn't, but I doubt most Jews would agree with me.
The Jewish people were delivered out of polytheistic Egypt and continued to flirt with it off and on. It was a very strong evil impulse "back in the day." We made a golden calf because we wanted a tangible link to the divine when we lost faith in Moshe Rabbeinu during his absence. The prophets continually warned us against the inclination to worship other deities or to use them to worship. Most of our kings were, unfortunately, guilty of chasing after other gods. So yes there was a lot of polytheistic conduct, but that doesn't mean the Scriptures endorse such belief - quite to the contrary. If anyone disagrees with what I've written here, please feel free to offer chapter and verse.

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Feb 1, 2008, 03:48 AM
 
Sorry to derail this thread smacintush, btw. Do any Christians believe in divinity of Mary? It would be interesting to know if there were/are. I also don't think any modern Christian denomination believes in the Devil as a god, although I have heard that some early Christians thought Jesus and the Devil were brothers of some kind; Zoroastrianism definitely seems to have had heavy influence on Christian thought.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Feb 1, 2008 at 04:10 AM. )

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Feb 1, 2008, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
Yes, I beleive that christianity is polytheistic in that we believe in more than one god existing in the universe.

As a Mormon, we believe in God the Eternal Father, in his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Three distinct beings, one purpose. We pray to God the Father in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ.
Something to consider, if I were to wear a mask with 3 distinct faces carved into it, would you consider me to be 3 separate people?
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Feb 1, 2008, 06:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I personally do consider trinitarian Christianity to be polytheistic and that it therefore fails to satisfy the 7 laws of Noah, but I think trinitarian Christianity is still obviously preferable to non-Abrahamic religion or atheism.
In your (Jewish) point of view, it might, but for Catholics it's just one God in three different forms. For them it's monotheistic (and that's what counts). I'm not versed in the interpretations of Baptists or so (mostly Americans), though.
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Feb 1, 2008, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
In your (Jewish) point of view, it might, but for Catholics it's just one God in three different forms. For them it's monotheistic (and that's what counts). I'm not versed in the interpretations of Baptists or so (mostly Americans), though.
You're right that I'm speaking of my Jewish view. I never claimed to be speaking for Catholics or other Christians. However, the facts remains that 1!=3, so to split a godhead into distinct personages looks very much like polytheism to me, and in addition to that, to worship any sort of form is to me equivalent to idolatry and therefore could also be considered a second direct violation of the covenant with Noah.

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OreoCookie
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Feb 1, 2008, 11:54 AM
 
No, sure, it's how each group interprets its scripture.
Even within all major streams of religion (e. g. different flavors of Judaism or Christianity), the interpretation is quite different. I was talking about this quite a bit with a very good friend who is a devout Catholic. Diversity is great!
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Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:00 PM
 
I like diversity too, and I like comparative religion discourse.

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iranfromthezoo
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Okay after writing a really nice and well written reply only to get a server busy message for the 700th time I am going to paraphrase this.
The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

(I do have to credit a masters of divinity and lifeway cr for this also)
     
Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:25 PM
 
Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

"R. Yochanan: Any verse the heretics use to 'prove' that there is more than one G-d, a (nearby or the same) verse refutes them."

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iranfromthezoo
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

"R. Yochanan: Any verse the heretics use to 'prove' that there is more than one G-d, a (nearby or the same) verse refutes them."
Wow! I never thought I would see that website again. No offense Big Mac and believe me I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, I just don't think the OP's thread was questioning the validity of the Christianity as the website you pointed out. So I will not start a flame war with me only saying I respect what your saying and what the guy says but I think you can agree with me on this one and you can give 1000 people one sentence to read and you can get 1000 different perspectives.

I understand the premises for that website but there is still some "questions" I have about it's validity and accuracy that I think we could better discuss somewhere else. So hit me up if your up for a discussion. I am in no way wanting to debate anything because you have your beliefs and obviously I have mine and I am not going to try to sway anyone from believing what they believe. In the end the question of is Christianity valid and what the Bible states about G-d along with the trinity for that matter is something only you can decide for yourself.
     
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

"R. Yochanan: Any verse the heretics use to 'prove' that there is more than one G-d, a (nearby or the same) verse refutes them."
Unfortunately it's not that simple - since the scriptures are a team effort, pulling out any one (or more) quote tells you, at best, what some people thought at some point. There are still elements in the OT that clearly show that some people believed in more than one god while the worshipped the god of Abraham.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo View Post
Wow! I never thought I would see that website again. No offense Big Mac and believe me I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, I just don't think the OP's thread was questioning the validity of the Christianity as the website you pointed out. So I will not start a flame war with me only saying I respect what your saying and what the guy says but I think you can agree with me on this one and you can give 1000 people one sentence to read and you can get 1000 different perspectives.

I understand the premises for that website but there is still some "questions" I have about it's validity and accuracy that I think we could better discuss somewhere else. So hit me up if your up for a discussion. I am in no way wanting to debate anything because you have your beliefs and obviously I have mine and I am not going to try to sway anyone from believing what they believe. In the end the question of is Christianity valid and what the Bible states about G-d along with the trinity for that matter is something only you can decide for yourself.
I'm not trying to start a flame war, but why wouldn't you see that website again? What troubles you about that site? Truly its a site for Jews who have been targeted by missionaries, but it's also a free resource on the Internet and I don't see a problem with citing it as a source for those who are interested. You don't have to look at it if you don't want to. I also happen to think that questioning whether or not Christianity is polytheistic is a rather bold way to assail your religion, and it's not the type of thread I would have posted. I chose to be honest here and give my opinion though, come what may.

We're discussing hot button religious topics in this thread. If you're going to make bold claims about the Hebrew language and the Hebrew Scriptures, I don't see any problem with responding to you. I'm sorry if you're offended, however. My intent is not to harm Christians in their belief, but if we're going to talk comparative religion we're invariably going to get into debates on the fine points and people may well get offended by it.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
iranfromthezoo
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I'm not trying to start a flame war, but why wouldn't you see that website again? What troubles you about that site?

We're discussing hot button religious topics in this thread. If you're going to make bold claims about the Hebrew language and the Hebrew Scriptures, I don't see any problem with responding to you. I'm sorry if you're offended, however.
Oh please don't take my statements as that. I saw the website again after someone showed it to me. I thought I would never be shown that website again is what I mean.

You didn't offend me but rather interested me and I wanted to have a communication with you about what your views are of Jesus. I take it that your Jewish because of your spelling of G-d. I don't have my Bible with me right now (aren't I such a terrible Christian) but I do remember something being plural but let me go back and look and look at the original.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 12:47 PM
 
Oh, I'm glad to read that then. If I realize that I'm really offending people in this thread I'm likely to quit it before things get too heated because that not what I want to do whatsoever. I am an Orthodox Jew. Regarding G-d/God, I choose as an individual convention on these forums usually to spell it out without the hyphen for a few reasons that I can go into quickly if you're interested. (The quotation I gave had a hyphen because it came from a Jewish source.) I do follow the orthodox convention of substituting a k for the h in the transliterated Elo'k'im because I'm more sensitive to Hebrew appelations of HaShem. Elsewhere I do usually hyphenate.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Feb 1, 2008 at 01:01 PM. )

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turtle777
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo View Post
I think you can agree with me on this one and you can give 1000 people one sentence to read and you can get 1000 different perspectives.
As far as the Jewish community goes, that would be an understatement.

Don't 2 Rabbies represent at least 5 opinions ?

-t
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:02 PM
 
All monotheistic religions have polytheistic elements. Angels and demons are merely the "demoted" gods of the Canaanite mythos that Judaism evolved from. The ancient Israelites acknowledged the existence of beings like Baal and Asherah, but simply called them demons instead of gods.

The Greco-Roman world was also moving in this direction for some time. Most philosophers spoke of Zeus as God and saw the other gods as his lesser minions. Had Christianity not arisen, the worship of Zeus would have fully evolved into monotheism.

Modern Hinduism is essentially monist-monotheism; there is only one Brahman, but many ways of seeing him. A case could be made that Trinitarianism is really a monist faith and not a monotheistic one.

Of course, arguing about whether there is one God of many faces, and/or one God and many lesser gods/angels/demons, is merely a debate similar to the angels dancing on a pinhead. What matters is being a good person. "Not everyone who calls me Lord is worthy of Heaven, but only those who do what what my Father requires."
     
turtle777
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:12 PM
 
Well, to chime in on the original question:

There is not ONE right answer and view in Christianity, as the views differ greatly.

First, between the different denominations, you have different readings and interpretations of the Bible. You also have different traditions that play a big role.

Secondly, even among the same denominations, you will find different readings and interpretations of the Bible and different interpretations of their unique tradition.

So, it's gonna be hard to boil it down to a simple sentence or definition.

However, the majority of the Christian denominations accepts a Trinitarian view that has to be described as Monotheistic. Or in other words, three "things" in ONE. "Things" can be anything from persons, manifestations, spirits etc. You can get eternally hung up on semantics in this discussion.

-t
     
Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
As far as the Jewish community goes, that would be an understatement.

Don't 2 Rabbies represent at least 5 opinions ?

-t
That is the classic Jewish joke - talking to two Jews will yield three different opinions, or there are three synagogues for two Jews - one for one, one for the other and one that neither would go to. Those jokes contain a lot of truth, but they can also mislead those who don't understand the Jewish condition toward the wrong conclusion. Judaism promotes mass education, intellectual openness, debate and individual inquiry into the faith, which naturally yields a lot of opinions. However, from the outside it seems that Jews are more divided than they really are.

Classically most Jews were "orthodox," and there wasn't much division in orthodoxy. In modern times there is more division, but most of the dividing lines are drawn based on belief level and certain eltist principles held by some minorities. I personally think the greatest division is between Torah believing Jews who believe in the primacy of Torah and the encompassing Torah framework (orthodox in general) versus Torah doubting Jews (conservative, reform, atheist). However, there are also some "ultra-orthodox" movements that consider non-religious Jews in general to not be Jews at all, which is destructive and very much a violation of Torah. The point is, the differences in doctrine between Jews are very small, but the differences in levels of belief and observance are large.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Feb 1, 2008 at 01:22 PM. )

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Big Mac
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
All monotheistic religions have polytheistic elements. Angels and demons are merely the "demoted" gods of the Canaanite mythos that Judaism evolved from. The ancient Israelites acknowledged the existence of beings like Baal and Asherah, but simply called them demons instead of gods."
Not true. Jews believe in angels but I doubt you can offer any proof that any of them came from the Canaanite pantheon. It is true that some Jews were guilty of worshiping Baalim and Asherot, but Judaism never refers to them as real forces.

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Kerrigan
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:37 PM
 
I know a lot of uneducated Jihadis from back in the day used to go wild thinking that Christians were polytheists. In fact, they probably still do. But if you have an elementary school education, and have attended two Sunday school sessions, you should be able to grasp the precepts of the trinitarian doctrine, and realize that it is not polytheistic.
     
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:40 PM
 
It might be, but so what? What you are arguing over is the definition of the word.
     
Jawbone54
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Feb 1, 2008, 01:54 PM
 
I'm not going to go into a massive rant concerning Christian monotheism, but my particular denomination rejects the idea of the Trinity consisting of three distinct "persons."

We are a truly monotheistic sect of Christianity that believes there is more than sufficient biblical evidence that the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" are not three separate persons, but are three manifestations of the same, eternal, single God.

If anyone wants a PDF book that details it in full, just let me know and I'll email it to you.
     
 
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