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digitaljames
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May 1, 2004, 11:20 PM
 
+1
     
olorin15
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May 1, 2004, 11:27 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
He does have a point. It's as if olorin15 can't stand ANY criticism about SS.
It's on the verge of zealotry.
You have not been criticizing SS in any way. All you've been doing is bitching about the way things are now in the theming community ever since SS came out. There's a huge difference. I can stand a lot of criticism about SS - I could post many issues I have with it. That's not the point. You are not attacking the app. You are attacking the system, without doing anything constructive about the situation. I find that silly. I'm a realist. The way things are now, probably 99% of people making and using themes are happy. There are some pope like you who are not, as there are always bound to be in any real situation. You can never make everyone happy at once. But Zimphire, if you do not like it, and 99% of the people do, then it's up to you, and you alone to change it. In an ideal world we'd have competition for SS, we'd have themers providing various choices, and all of us would be happy. In the real world, you either go with the majority, or you do something about it. And no, talking about it in this forum is not enough, b/c you are arguing with people like me, whom you can't convince to follow you. I like the theming stage as it is now, and when you say you don't, my only responce is "too bad" ...
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swiz
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May 2, 2004, 12:02 AM
 
I use guiKit for one reason, its safe and it keeps me from having to assist users in reparing their systems for whatever reason due to using anything other than SS.
I dont have time to do this, ****, I dont even have time to keep my themes updated anymore...

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digitaljames
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May 2, 2004, 12:04 AM
 
yeah...if you get too busy, someone might sneak in and get them drums....
     
goMac
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May 2, 2004, 12:05 AM
 
GUIKit isn't different from other formats besides that its encoded.
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deej5871
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May 2, 2004, 12:25 AM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
But Zimphire, if you do not like it, and 99% of the people do, then it's up to you, and you alone to change it. In an ideal world we'd have competition for SS, we'd have themers providing various choices, and all of us would be happy. In the real world, you either go with the majority, or you do something about it. And no, talking about it in this forum is not enough, b/c you are arguing with people like me, whom you can't convince to follow you. I like the theming stage as it is now, and when you say you don't, my only responce is "too bad" ...
That's like saying if a big company, say McDonalds, is doing something you don't like, rather than complain and try and get them to change it, he should just start up his own fast food company (this is in a world where McDonalds is the only fast food company, like SS is the only real themechanger). You think anytime you don't like something you should take it into you're own hands?

Did you read someone's reply to that, saying stop bitching about me bitching about others bitching? You are a double hypocrite then If you did not start bitching about SS and GUIkit, I'd have nothing to bitch about ...
It's an endless circle..

Sorry - what exaclty are you contributing by posting here, other than your teenage "I'm the smartest thing on this planet, and the whole world is unfair to me" attitude?
I'm stickin' it to the man...

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Adam Betts
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May 2, 2004, 01:04 AM
 
     
smeger
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May 2, 2004, 05:49 AM
 
I'm the author of ShapeShifter and ThemePark. I figured it was time to jump in and give you guys more stuff to fight about.


Point: I am not interested in creating a monopoly
"Link" and "dru" seem to really want there to be an evil monopoly, so I don't really expect them to believe me when I say that I'm not trying to monopolize OS X themeing. But it's the truth. I'm more motivated to write cool code when I've got competition.

I'd been telling Colin, the author of Duality and the forthcoming XTender, and Finlay, one of the authors of ThemeChanger that I would be competing with them at some point in the future for about a year prior to the release of ShapeShifter. And I did. I don't know what's up with XTender, but ThemeChanger is open source. If you aren't happy with ShapeShifter (I certainly am!), there's absolutely nothing at all stopping you from bringing ThemeChanger up to par.

Except for one thing: doing this stuff correctly is hard. My programming philosophy is that I make the software smart so that the user doesn't need to be. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in ShapeShifter that the user doesn't see or need to think about.

If I were interested in creating a monopoly, here are some things I would have done:
  • I would not have supported the dlta or "dot-theme" formats in ShapeShifter;
  • I would have removed "dlta" and "xscheme" export capabilities from ThemePark;
  • We would not have released guiKitty;
  • I would have actively attempted to obfuscate the guiKit file format as Microsoft does with their Word format.

I think it should be clear that implementing most of those options would have required me to do less work. Let me say that again: Doing stuff that would have given Unsanity a monopoly on theming would have been easier than the course we have actually taken.

I should hope that this would wrap up the monopoly argument.


Point: Every release of ShapeShifter has reset the demo period
'dru', this one's for you! Every single public release of ShapeShifter has provided an additional demo period of between four and fourteen days.

We've had sporadic issues where people did not get a new demo. If this happens to you, please contact tech support. You are supposed to get a new demo, and if you don't, it's my bug, my fault, and my responsibility, and I'd like to fix it. When the demo doesn't get reset, it pisses people off (with reason!) and makes us look bad, so if it continues to happen to you, please contact us!


Point: ShapeShifter is not free software
ShapeShifter is targeted at the average user who wants his or her Mac to look cool and doesn't want to worry about how it happens or whether they need to worry about it. If you prefer to change things manually and don't mind danger and visual inconsistency, you are not the target market.

If you're one of these masochistic people who wants to change stuff manually and doesn't mind doing an occasional OS reinstall, guiKitty was released partially to help you. The "rsrc" files that are exported from guiKitty contain only the elements that the theme creator actually themed. To actually use the "rsrc" file, you need to merge it with the default one. This allows the themed "rsrc" file to be independent of the operating system and application version, and was done on purpose to keep the theme independent of the OS version.

If you are someone who's comfortable with changing theme resources manually, this should not present a problem for you. If you're not comfortable with it, don't do it! Use ShapeShifter instead! Please!

Laine's excellent tutorial gives more details on this process.

And please realize that we don't consider this to be "getting around ShapeShifter". We consider this to be "power users can be more comfortable doing things manually and are not necessarily our target market".

But! If you are one of those who is comfortable installing things manually, or if you decide to use some method other than ShapeShifter to install your themes, please be careful! There are a lot of things that can go wrong, and there are a lot of ways to hose your computer doing this. I'm not kidding around, I'm not making this up. And if you try it and decide it's not for you, please get everything reverted back to Aqua before you go back to ShapeShifter. This can be a tech support nightmare for us.


Point: guiKit is not a human-readable file format
And why would you expect it to be?

guiKit is designed to be fast and to be small. Human readable file formats are not fast or small. Period, end of story.

The file format is also evolving quickly, which means that we will not publish details of the file format until it has stabilized, if ever. Please note that I am not promising you that we will ever publish a description of the file format - I'm saying that if we do, it won't be until the format has stabilized.

If you feel like writing your own theme changer program and reverse-engineering the guiKit file format and making sure that you keep your reverse-engineering up-to-date, we won't sic the DMCA on you.

The guiKit file format is not intentionally obfuscated - it does exactly what it's designed to do - convey theme information in a dense and fast form from one computer to another.

By the way, did I mention "guiKitty"? If you feel like converting a guiKit into a human-readable format, you can. For free. guiKitty doesn't help us at all, it's solely intended for people who want to get information out of a guiKit file without using ShapeShifter.


Point: ShapeShifter offers lots of stuff you can't get elsewhere
There's a reason everyone has adopted ShapeShifter so quickly - it does a lot of stuff that isn't available elsewhere. Here's list of things ShapeShifter can do that you can't do without it (and there's a lot, so I'm probably forgetting some of 'em):
  • Application skinning;
  • Auto-updating of Jaguar themes for Panther;
  • Color metal windows on Panther;
  • Non-hardcoded window titlebar transparency and window shadows on Panther;
  • Background patterns larger than 8x8 pixels in Cocoa applications;
  • Changes to text colors in places other than in menus;
  • Ability to change Finder's icon text colors;
  • Changing the color of textual Menu Extras;
  • Ability to use large metal window bevels in Safari;
  • Ability to change etched text foreground and background colors in many different apps;
  • Automatic handling of language localization issues;
  • Ability to exclude individual applications or easily turn off theming altogether;
  • Per-user themes;
  • Safety;
  • Something that gets better and adds more flexibility with every release!

Executive Summary
I don't really expect to change anyone's mind, and after this post, I'm probably going to return to my policy of not answering stuff like this publicly.

I'd like to think I'm pretty approachable, so if you've got feedback or feel like taking out some of your "the system's unfair!" anger out on me personally, feel free to shoot me an email or hit me on chat - if I'm online, it means I'm willing to talk, and unless you're just yelling at me, I probably will.

But please remember this - themeing OS X has grown dramatically in the past six months. We've got tons of new themes, and tons of new themers, and even new theme sites. And when Panther was first introduced, but ShapeShifter wasn't yet out, it looked like OS X themeing was about to die. If ShapeShifter wasn't responsible for this turn-around, what was?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled argument...
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Tarambana
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May 2, 2004, 06:36 AM
 
He, he, he. Great answer Smeger! I really think your post should be made sticky so that we don't have to come all over the same dicussion once and over again

Regards.

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May 2, 2004, 07:50 AM
 
BRAVO!
     
Zimphire
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May 2, 2004, 09:37 AM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
Let's see that happen - I have nothig aganst it as a concept.

If I were a themer, I would not care less if you or anyone else frowned at me ...
I am betting most Themers like making their users "happy" At least that is how it was when I was themeing.

Choice is good, but there is none currently. Why don't you go out and change that? Maye Xtender, if it ever comes out will do just that, who knows. But right now, there is no choice for most modern themes ...

Yes there is a choice. You aren't listening. You can manually install themes. I've been doing it for YEARS.

A way around what? I'm lost ...
Converting SS themes into usable ones that you can install manually.

No one's arguing again that ... obviously if ou don't want to use themes you do not need a theme switcher ... not sure where your are going with that.
Again, you aren't "listening" If I want to use ONE theme. Just one. I have no need for a THEME SWITCHER. Why should I pay $20 to just switch themes once?
That would be silly. Esp when you can do it without one.

I don't think - I know he hasn't yet made one. So what's your point? email Max and ask him to provide Smooth Stripes resources in a folder for everyone, and see what happens. Don't argue with me about this.
Heh YOU are the one arguing about it kiddo. I just stated my opinion. You are going around bitching at people for doing so.

Let go of the zealous attitude. It's just a program.
( Last edited by Zimphire; May 2, 2004 at 09:49 AM. )
     
Zimphire
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May 2, 2004, 09:44 AM
 
BTW

"If you're one of these masochistic people who wants to change stuff manually and doesn't mind doing an occasional OS reinstall, guiKitty was released partially to help you. The "rsrc" files that are exported from guiKitty contain only the elements that the theme creator actually themed. To actually use the "rsrc" file, you need to merge it with the default one. This allows the themed "rsrc" file to be independent of the operating system and application version, and was done on purpose to keep the theme independent of the OS version."

That is fine. You can hack the themes back to their regular status.I have NEVER EVER had to reinstall my OS from manually installing theme rsrcs never once. Ever.

The only people I have seen that has had to do it was because of certain other theme changers that would leave stuff behind.

My OS was never compromised. Nor should switching theme files cause it to be.

I was never implying you wanted a monopoly. But if themers JUST make SS compatible themes. That is what you will have. And that isn't a good thing.

What will end up happening is, someone will take guiKitty, paste together a working Extras.rsc (Just a copy/paste deal) and give it out on the interweb if the authors don't offer an option.
     
goMac
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May 2, 2004, 02:49 PM
 
The problem with guiKit is the method of accessing it to read. GuiKitty is the only option to read guiKit files, and this causes some issues. Some people do want the preference of changing their boot screens and login windows. This requires a file based changer. However, you can't open guiKit without guiKitty, and even with that, guiKit doesn't support boot panels or login windows. No one is expecting it to be human readable, but they're expecting it to be somehow human modifyable. guiKit is not a format that can do anything and everything like DLTA. It is restricted only to what SS can do. Even if it could be natively read by another theme changer, it is still stuck in SS's feature set. Not to try and plug to much, but XScheme supports an unlimited amount of files, and allows other theme programs to store their own data.

The problem with guiKit is its un-extendable and non-public nature. What SS and Xtender do is not very complex and pretty easy to code. Slava himself has said this on a few mailing lists. The only thing keeping other people from coding theme changers that do file masks is intimidation (they think its much harder than it really is), lack of information on how it works (copying files was pretty easy to figure out), and lack of an implementation layer such as APE or the Xtender engine. The latter won't be a problem soon because Xtender is an open API, meaning anyone can code for it, or perhaps even code a competing theme changer to run under Xtender. This just leaves intimidation and lack of knowledge as the barriers for everyone and their grandmother coding their own theme changers based on this new system. By overriding one command in the system and using about 5 lines of code you can write Aqua-backupless, no file writing, user based themes. This is even simpler to write than writing-file based theming.

When more theme changers start to appear guiKit will in the end fail because no one can read it. It will be confined to SS and other changers won't use it. Themes that currently exist in guiKit won't work with all the other programs and will have to be translated yet again to the format everyone else is using. The great thing about DLTA is it was still being used by others long after I finished designing, coding, and implementing it. In a market with many theme changers my format still saturated the market.

guiKit will only be successful as long as SS is the only game around. And when people begin to find out SS is a pretty simple program (which they will in time) I think we'll see many other theme changers, more than we even had in the past.
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iOliverC
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May 2, 2004, 02:57 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
guiKit will only be successful as long as SS is the only game around. And when people begin to find out SS is a pretty simple program (which they will in time) I think we'll see many other theme changers, more than we even had in the past.
I totally do not agree with this. Already themeing is a big, long job (with not many benefits), SS made it easier sure, so why are themers suddenly going to _again_ switch to another theme format. What do they gain?

And in the end, what does the user care about if the file format is open or not? Its still the same theme.
     
goMac
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May 2, 2004, 03:00 PM
 
Originally posted by iOliverC:
I totally do not agree with this. Already themeing is a big, long job (with not many benefits), SS made it easier sure, so why are themers suddenly going to _again_ switch to another theme format. What do they gain?

And in the end, what does the user care about if the file format is open or not? Its still the same theme.
The user doesn't care about the theme format. Thats the point. The user cares if the theme they download works in the theme changer they use. If it doesn't, they are unhappy. When other theme changers begin to appear they probably won't support guiKit. There will be a point when guiKit becomes a niche format because no one supports it, because they can't even read it. When this happens, all the themes that are in guiKit will be abandon because they simply won't work.
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olorin15
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May 2, 2004, 03:05 PM
 
Ahhh Zimphire ... you are just too smart for the rest of us here. You are obviously that power^2 user that's certainly NOT the target market for SS. Like Smeger said, if you are such an advanced user, then you should have no problem using guikitty to extract resources and then merge them with the default ones. If it takes you a few minutes to apply all those changes manually, then this will only take you an extra minute. So what the hell is your problem then? If it's such a trivial thing for you, why should themers worry about it? You seem like a terribly small minority here ... I'm not even trying to defend SS or the themers here, I'm just questioning your attitude. You ARE a power user, and you HAVE all the tools. What ARE you complaining about???
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olorin15
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May 2, 2004, 03:08 PM
 
If coding a theme changer is so easy, like you say it is, why haven't you released your Xtender yet? Just curious, what's holding you back? Seems like you are sitting on a gold mine ...
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Frisbee
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May 2, 2004, 03:24 PM
 
Suggestion for Smeger: Why not ditch the .tpark files and just use .guiKit as the replacement? That way it's extremely easy to make mods.
     
goMac
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May 2, 2004, 03:49 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
If coding a theme changer is so easy, like you say it is, why haven't you released your Xtender yet? Just curious, what's holding you back? Seems like you are sitting on a gold mine ...
The theme changer is done.

The nice installer and launcher for the Xtender engine is not.
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bOOzo
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May 2, 2004, 03:53 PM
 
All I can say is that I release my themes for ShapeShifter since that's the only way they will look right. Plus it's safe and very easy to use etc.
Themes that will look ok without SS, like Aqua Extreme and SmoothStripes are distributed as dlta files, which work with both ThemeChanger and SS.
Those of you who say that coding a theme changer is easy are mistaken, I know how much effort Jason puts into ShapeShifter and I think you will have a hard time making a better theme changer..
I can't believe this thread has gone on so long btw
     
swiz
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May 2, 2004, 04:10 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
And when people begin to find out SS is a pretty simple program (which they will in time) I think we'll see many other theme changers, more than we even had in the past.
No we wont, not enough people care about themes for OSX.

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olorin15
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May 2, 2004, 04:31 PM
 
Originally posted by swiz:
No we wont, not enough people care about themes for OSX.
Not only that, but also who wants to put their precious time into making a NEW changer, when there already is a very good one that's accepted by all current themers? Most people interested in Mac themes are theme users, like me. A few are themers like Max or Swiz. And only a coupe are crazy enough to write code that makes theming possible, like Smeger If Xtender comes out eventually, I'm 99% confident that'll make everyone feel like there's now enough competition, and the story will end there. This isn't the Linux community, where every other person thinks they should write a new window manager cuz everyone before them got it all wrong.
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Zimphire
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May 2, 2004, 04:49 PM
 
Originally posted by bOOzo:
All I can say is that I release my themes for ShapeShifter since that's the only way they will look right. Plus it's safe and very easy to use etc.
Themes that will look ok without SS, like Aqua Extreme and SmoothStripes are distributed as dlta files, which work with both ThemeChanger and SS.
Those of you who say that coding a theme changer is easy are mistaken, I know how much effort Jason puts into ShapeShifter and I think you will have a hard time making a better theme changer..
I can't believe this thread has gone on so long btw
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May 2, 2004, 06:12 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
There will be a point when guiKit becomes a niche format because no one supports it, because they can't even read it. When this happens, all the themes that are in guiKit will be abandon because they simply won't work.
This is crazy talk. ShapeShifter has a number of major advantages over Xtender or any other switcher - 1. it's got a major head start and therefore the majority of mindshare, 2. it's well-integrated with the ONLY decent theme building app: ThemePark, and 3. the guy coding it is busting his ass non-stop to make it all work together better. You're right - the average user doesn't give a f*ck whether a format is human-readable... the average user also will never feel a need for anything beyond what GUIkit offers - basically a small, fast no-nonsense file that delivers the goods. Until something comes along that delivers some serious effects or abilities that SS doesn't, SS will remain #1... just another theme switcher, no matter how 'open' it is, wouldn't be able to strip any appreciable marketshare from Unsanity at this point. GUIkit is hardly in danger of becoming a niche format
     
goMac
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May 2, 2004, 08:23 PM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
This is crazy talk. ShapeShifter has a number of major advantages over Xtender or any other switcher - 1. it's got a major head start and therefore the majority of mindshare, 2. it's well-integrated with the ONLY decent theme building app: ThemePark, and 3. the guy coding it is busting his ass non-stop to make it all work together better. You're right - the average user doesn't give a f*ck whether a format is human-readable... the average user also will never feel a need for anything beyond what GUIkit offers - basically a small, fast no-nonsense file that delivers the goods. Until something comes along that delivers some serious effects or abilities that SS doesn't, SS will remain #1... just another theme switcher, no matter how 'open' it is, wouldn't be able to strip any appreciable marketshare from Unsanity at this point. GUIkit is hardly in danger of becoming a niche format
Have you been in the OS X theme changer market long enough to see how many theme changers there have been? SS has no major head start. All it does is override files. iTunes skins? Override the iTunes.rsrc. It's not that hard.

A team of coders could easily develop an open source changer to rival SS even if Xtender never does. You made my point for me. Only one person is coding SS. A team of 3 or 4 people could blow it out of the water.
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May 2, 2004, 08:29 PM
 
An open format has a huge advantage over a closed format simply because both themers and theme users have a choice which programs they want to use.

Anyone remember the words vendor lock-in?

BTW just something to say, whoever said that SS had a headstart really just lost their credibility in whole. There have been theme apps since ~10.0.4 if I remember correctly, and SS definately wasn't one of them.
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May 2, 2004, 08:52 PM
 
Originally posted by a child in tights:
BTW just something to say, whoever said that SS had a headstart really just lost their credibility in whole.


Youre so obnoxious. They have a headstart compared to that Xtender. Thats the point you moron. Go play your video games and leave these kind people alone.

Btw, that sentence doesnt even make sense. Stop making up phrases and acting like the best thing since sliced bread. Im done here

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May 2, 2004, 08:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Link:
An open format has a huge advantage over a closed format simply because both themers and theme users have a choice which programs they want to use.

Anyone remember the words vendor lock-in?

BTW just something to say, whoever said that SS had a headstart really just lost their credibility in whole. There have been theme apps since ~10.0.4 if I remember correctly, and SS definately wasn't one of them.
I hate to get involved in this whole debacle, but i don't really think a theme changer for 10.0.4 is relevant. Shape shifter has a head start because it already has a whole lot of themes for it. What other theme changer has that support in panther?

none.

So please, if you're going to continue this argument atleast keep it to facts that matter, not some obscure reference to a theme changer that no one uses anymore.
     
Holigen
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May 2, 2004, 08:58 PM
 
Originally posted by gomac:
Have you been in the OS X theme changer market long enough to see how many theme changers there have been? SS has no major head start. All it does is override files. iTunes skins? Override the iTunes.rsrc. It's not that hard.

A team of coders could easily develop an open source changer to rival SS even if Xtender never does. You made my point for me. Only one person is coding SS. A team of 3 or 4 people could blow it out of the water.
If its not that hard, then why dont you get your rear in gear and do it. Stop responding to this crap and fix up your installer or whatever and "blow it out of the water". Why are you acting so confrontational to everyone here? Like someone else (I think olorin) said, you should stop responding and work on your stuff. No one really cares for those negative rhetorical questions...

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goMac
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May 2, 2004, 09:01 PM
 
What if a bunch of people fed up with paying for SS got together and wrote their own free changer? I can think of a bunch of scenarios of other theme changers being written, possibly free ones.

I don't really know what Jason is doing over their, I honestly don't pretend to know. Most of the work is in a resource file assembler. Considering we open sourced ours, there probably won't be much work writing one for anyone who wants to.

What most people don't realize is Xtender is two programs. Its currently causing somewhat of a crisis here as we're starting to think we should market them seperately. Xtender itself really has little to do with themes. It is an application enhancer (for lack of better wording) like APE. It provides the ability to override any function (or file) in the operating system. This is royalty free and has an open API. Anyone can program for it.

The second part is the theme plugin for Xtender. This will actually take theme files you give it and mask them to the real files.

When you look at it, developers now have all the tools they need to code a theme changer. They can use the Xtender engine for free (like SS uses the APE engine) for overiding files. They can use ThemeKit (which is currently open source and on sourceforge) for opening theme files in any format (GuiKit with GuiKitty) and generating resource files. This leaves very little left to code. Here is an example program which generates a resource file from an XScheme using ThemeKit:

Code:
//This program will write out a complete resource file that works with the current //operating system from the first variation in a theme. //Any theme for Mac OS X Public Beta or higher will work and be compatible with Panther //Open up the theme TKTheme *myTheme = [[TKTheme alloc] initWithThemeFromFile:@"/My/File/Path"]; //These two lines really aren't needed, but they print out the name and description //of the first variation. NSLog([[[myTheme theVariations] objectAtIndex:0] name]); NSLog([[[myTheme theVariations] objectAtIndex:0] description]); //Write a resource file for the first variation [[[myTheme theVariations] objectAtIndex:0] writeResourceFile:@"To/This/Path"]; //Lets be nice and clean up the memory [myTheme release];
You can see in 5 lines of code I have opened a theme file, and written out a compatible resource file for the OS, and 2 of those lines weren't even needed. This is using a framework available to the public right now. With simple modifications (and no extra lines) this code could be used on a DLTA, .theme, or .guiKit. Someone could couple this with the Xtender engine's forthcoming file masker, and they would have a full theme changer with user based themes. I can't really believe Xtender is much better to code for than APE, but I don't see where the hold up is. The same process can be re-applied for skinning other apps.

I invite anyone interested in seeing how easy/complex it is to write a theme changer to take a look at our ThemeKit on sourceforge, and the Xtender API when it comes out. We would be happy to see other theme changers using Xtender technology.
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goMac
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May 2, 2004, 09:02 PM
 
Originally posted by RedStar:
What other theme changer has that support in panther?
Duality 4 was written under 10.3.
ThemeChanger has been updated for Panther.
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Link
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May 2, 2004, 09:30 PM
 
Originally posted by the senseless jerk who made fun of me:
Stop making up phrases and acting like the best thing since sliced bread. Im done here


You just can't deny the truth can you?

BTW duality and themechanger do have support. I have both on here
Aloha
     
RedStar
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May 2, 2004, 09:37 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
Duality 4 was written under 10.3.
ThemeChanger has been updated for Panther.
Originally posted by Link:
BTW duality and themechanger do have support. I have both on here
How does jetblack, orbital, etc. work on those?

I have nothing against duality / themechanger....just reiterating why shapeshifter has its head-start.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 10:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I was just pointing out, people should offer their themes in two formats. One for SS, and one you'd be able to manually install.

No one should be FORCED to have to shell out money JUST to use themes.

There SHOULD be a choice.
I believe I mentioned Panther's lack of shaped window shadow support. You cannot have a window shadow in Panther that fits anything but the default Aqua window shape, WITHOUT SHAPESHIFTER.

Oh. Not to mention all the other things that you cannot do without Shapeshifter in Panther.

It ends up becoming a giant pain in the ass to support the old way when the Shapeshifter way makes life so much more robust for the themer.

You actually think the themes being created are about you, the user? They are not. They are about the artist's personal expression, and if he/she decides to share it with you, that's a bonus. He or she is not a slave to the community, and anything he/she gives is to be cherished.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 10:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:

Takes me a few minutes, I don't have to run any third party software. And it's never messed up my machine.

I used to swap themes 10 to 20x a day just messing with my own


I've never had a problem. If you know how to do it, there SHOULDN'T BE a problem. [/B]
Keep playing with fire. One day you'll hose your machine and it won't boot. Then we won't have to listen to you in the forums.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 10:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Now If SS gives themers a way to modify themes in a way that OS X alone wont let them, then good on SS. They have provided a feature that OS X alone cannot or wont provide.
It has become glaringly apparent that the majority of anti-Shapeshifter people do not understand what Panther theming would be like without Shapeshifter. Shapeshifter gives Panther theming features that it does not normally have. THAT is why it has been embraced by themers. There was a huge cloud of doubt hanging in the air before the release of Panther, from the theming community. They were unsure of where theming would go when it was discovered that Panther had abandoned shaped window shadows. Many themers were ready to abandon the hobby entirely, claiming that theming would be dead with Panther's release date.

Unsanity SAVED theming by making Shapeshifter, an application that overcomes these roadblocks. I have been watching this situation for a long time. You people think Shapeshifter came out of the blue for no reason at all? It came out of necessity. You forget quickly.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 10:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Link:
The irony, zimph - I think there's no benefit at all for the theme makers to distribute in a format they actually have to PAY to use
Wrong.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 10:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
SS doesn't make theming possible. The ability is already there.
Wrong.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 11:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:

Right. And when someone comes out with a theme similar to those aboves themes, but doesn't require SS, you'll be seeing the non-SS users moving away from the themers.

No one is trying to FORCE any themers to make two themes. I just know a lot of people that will frown on said themer if they make a theme that can only be used if you use SS.
Oh, boo hoo. Max will be greatly hurt by you not using his guiKITS when you don't use them in the first place, and when he is giving them to us out of the goodness of his heart. It is something he likely does for HIMSELF, and fine, if others enjoy it, so be it. But I have a feeling he would be just as happy keeping them to himself, for his own personal enjoyment, and content not to twist your arm into anything.

Shapeshifter lets themers do MORE. That is why it is the de facto, now.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 2, 2004, 11:13 PM
 
Originally posted by smeger:
And when Panther was first introduced, but ShapeShifter wasn't yet out, it looked like OS X themeing was about to die. If ShapeShifter wasn't responsible for this turn-around, what was?
BOOM. End of conversation.
     
swiz
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May 2, 2004, 11:16 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
Have you been in the OS X theme changer market long enough to see how many theme changers there have been? SS has no major head start. All it does is override files. iTunes skins? Override the iTunes.rsrc. It's not that hard.

A team of coders could easily develop an open source changer to rival SS even if Xtender never does. You made my point for me. Only one person is coding SS. A team of 3 or 4 people could blow it out of the water.
So lets see it buddy. Period.

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swiz
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May 2, 2004, 11:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Link:
An open format has a huge advantage over a closed format simply because both themers and theme users have a choice which programs they want to use.

Anyone remember the words vendor lock-in?

BTW just something to say, whoever said that SS had a headstart really just lost their credibility in whole. There have been theme apps since ~10.0.4 if I remember correctly, and SS definately wasn't one of them.
Head start on theming in any valuable affect. The others dont change text colors system-wide, can't color Finder windows and a host of other stuff. This is a head start on any theme changer that is actually attempting to really push the boundaries of OSX theme application.

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NetworkShadow
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May 2, 2004, 11:19 PM
 
Originally posted by swiz:
So lets see it buddy. Period.
I think swiz sums it all up well.
click one
     
Lateralus
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May 2, 2004, 11:29 PM
 
Originally posted by Link:
TEH IRONY ZIMPH - I THINK THEIR NO BN3FIT AT AL FOR TEH TH3ME MAEKRS 2 DISTRIBUTA IN A FORMAT THEY ACTUALY HAEV 2 PAY 2 USE (THINK TH3MEPARK ITS NOT FRE) - SHESH TAHT MAANS THEY HAEV 2 PAY WUT $40 2 MAEK TH3MAS
DONT?!!?!? OMG WTF THEY GET PADE ANYTHNG FOR MAKNG UNSANITY RICH
*CRIK3TS??!??!? OMG WTF LOL WUT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS1!111 WTF LOL
...just shut up.
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deej5871
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May 2, 2004, 11:35 PM
 
Originally posted by kwyjiboy:
Wrong.
First of all, I'm replying to your second "Wrong." post because you posted 2. He is actually right. OSX has a built in themechanger and it is called Extras.rsrc. Simple resource swapping is built in and doesn't require third-party software (it can, but not necessarily).

Second, you septuple posted, there has got to be some rule against that crap. Maybe you should learn to put more than one quote in a single post.. It pisses me off and I swear you only do it to raise your post count.
     
kwyjiboy
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May 3, 2004, 12:04 AM
 
Originally posted by deej5871:
First of all, I'm replying to your second "Wrong." post because you posted 2. He is actually right. OSX has a built in themechanger and it is called Extras.rsrc. Simple resource swapping is built in and doesn't require third-party software (it can, but not necessarily).

Second, you septuple posted, there has got to be some rule against that crap. Maybe you should learn to put more than one quote in a single post.. It pisses me off and I swear you only do it to raise your post count.
I am not here to participate in this invisible, purile posting contest that exists solely in your head. I am here to voice my opinion. I will quote a reply TO THAT REPLY, and not to someone else's, just to appease some kind of obsessive-compulsive neurotic desire of yours.

I find it offensive that you did not read anything I have posted, and simply refer to it all as "crap".

I will not read a 4 page long forum at the interval you specify, make a list of things in a word processor, then come back and collect responses to 20 some peoples' posts into one long-winded, 20 screen long post. That is inane and just plain absurd. No. I think I will click the reply button to the individual posts AS THE FORUM CONCEPT WAS DESIGNED. I hope this shuts you the hell up, but I doubt it.
     
Link
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May 3, 2004, 12:33 AM
 
Originally posted by RedStar:
How does jetblack, orbital, etc. work on those?

I have nothing against duality / themechanger....just reiterating why shapeshifter has its head-start.
I hate to break it to you, but 99% of the mac themes out right now SUCK... seriously, all they are is a bunch of either super-beveled themes or completely flat "trendy" things.

They almost all look the same. Blah I say There are a few nice creative ones but those are few and far between.

Hey that's my own opinion though ok? If you think the mac themes rawk and want to pay $20 to the $40 the person who made the theme paid to use it, hey that's fine with me. Keep in mind here we should be paying the theme makers not the people who decide to get rich by making a program that exchanges files.
Aloha
     
Holigen
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May 3, 2004, 12:40 AM
 
Originally posted by kjwboy:
I am not here to participate in this invisible, purile posting contest that exists solely in your head. I am here to voice my opinion. I will quote a reply TO THAT REPLY, and not to someone else's, just to appease some kind of obsessive-compulsive neurotic desire of yours.

I find it offensive that you did not read anything I have posted, and simply refer to it all as "crap".

I will not read a 4 page long forum at the interval you specify, make a list of things in a word processor, then come back and collect responses to 20 some peoples' posts into one long-winded, 20 screen long post. That is inane and just plain absurd. No. I think I will click the reply button to the individual posts AS THE FORUM CONCEPT WAS DESIGNED. I hope this shuts you the hell up, but I doubt it.
Nice...

If all Mac themes suck, buy a PC and quit your incessant whining. Maybe theyll be more appreciative of your retarded zealotry toward whatever operating system youre running at the moment. Grow up dude...

[edit:
thumb did not work
]

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NetworkShadow
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May 3, 2004, 12:43 AM
 
I think 60 to 75% is a more realistic number for themes that suck... I don't even really even count some of the themes on ResEx as themes, they just suck too bad. Maybe if you account for the bad ones on ResEx it might be closer to 80% of OS X themes suck.

I've got close to 30 themes on my SS list, and I don't keep just any POS theme. I think that's a good number of "ok" to great quality themes! I wouldn't be so quick to say there are only a few are good themes out there.
click one
     
Adam Betts
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May 3, 2004, 12:46 AM
 
Originally posted by Link:
I hate to break it to you, but 99% of the mac themes out right now SUCK... seriously, all they are is a bunch of either super-beveled themes or completely flat "trendy" things.

They almost all look the same. Blah I say There are a few nice creative ones but those are few and far between.

Hey that's my own opinion though ok? If you think the mac themes rawk and want to pay $20 to the $40 the person who made the theme paid to use it, hey that's fine with me. Keep in mind here we should be paying the theme makers not the people who decide to get rich by making a program that exchanges files.
I'm far from being a zealot or anything but you've completely lost your credibility for that post alone.

99%? Not even Zimphire, deej or Link (Zelda's boyfriend, not you) would agree with that.
     
 
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