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Producer · May 9, 2003, 11:12 PM

First does anyone know what Apple is using for the itunes 4 music store? Are they using webcore? If so does that mean when Itunes 4 is brought to windows that webcore will be on windows...

With Quicktime and Webcore on Windows what could be next? Cocoa?

MindFad · May 9, 2003, 11:16 PM

I think he said the service was being brought to Windows, not iTunes. Meaning there will probably be a web-based version of the music store. I could be wrong, though. Anyone else know for sure? And yeah, I believe iTunes 4 does use WebCore.

mikemako · May 9, 2003, 11:27 PM

I've read in several places that iTunes itself is being ported to Windows & that Apple is preparing to seed it to developers.

This is kinda cool, but makes me a little sad because iTunes is one of the best things about the Mac experience and now with it being ported to Windows there may be less incentive to "switch".

Should be great for the revenue stream though.

Stratus Fear · May 9, 2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by mikemako:
I've read in several places that iTunes itself is being ported to Windows & that Apple is preparing to seed it to developers.

This is kinda cool, but makes me a little sad because iTunes is one of the best things about the Mac experience and now with it being ported to Windows there may be less incentive to "switch".

Should be great for the revenue stream though.

For anyone to switch for one given app in the first place would be kind of shallow. The reason to switch would be for the entire Mac experience, not just because iTunes is better than most MP3 library programs on Windows. So if Windows does get iTunes, I don't really think it matters that much. We still have everything else and Mac OS X. Windows users don't get that stuff

Don Pickett · May 9, 2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
For anyone to switch for one given app in the first place would be kind of shallow. The reason to switch would be for the entire Mac experience, not just because iTunes is better than most MP3 library programs on Windows. So if Windows does get iTunes, I don't really think it matters that much. We still have everything else and Mac OS X. Windows users don't get that stuff

Actually, the reason is to allow the other 95% of the computing world to give Apple money.

Stratus Fear · May 9, 2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
Actually, the reason is to allow the other 95% of the computing world to give Apple money.

That's not what I was referring to. I know full well that's why the music store will reach Windows. I was commenting on the "oh darn, iTunes will be on Windows" comment, and why it wouldn't stop people from switching to Apple.

asmodeus · May 10, 2003, 12:21 AM

iTunes 4 doesn't use Webcore.

alex_kac · May 10, 2003, 12:30 AM

the iTunes Music Store interface isn't HTML. It isn't webcore based.

The Music Store just sends XML data to iTunes which iTunes then renders itself.

zachs · May 10, 2003, 12:43 AM

I believe it uses WebObjects.

Nonsuch · May 10, 2003, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
For anyone to switch for one given app in the first place would be kind of shallow. The reason to switch would be for the entire Mac experience, not just because iTunes is better than most MP3 library programs on Windows.

Yes, but having a best-of-breed jukebox program free with every Mac is definitely a plus. Apple knows that no one feature of the Mac is a killer in and of itself--it's dozens of features and apps that, together, make the Mac desireable (in theory at least). You won't buy a Mac just for iTunes, but you might buy it for iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, Safari, OS X/Aqua, etc. Removing the incentive to get iTunes could make a would-be switcher that much more reluctant to take the plunge.

I always thought that if Apple ported iTunes to Windows, they would probably cripple it in some important way. Maybe it wouldn't have Smart Playlists or the ability to play live streams. I can't easily imagine Apple just handing over one of Apple software's crown jewels.

krove · May 10, 2003, 01:06 AM

All they have to do is charge for it. $50, $100?

Apple would make a bundle...

JoeBruin · May 10, 2003, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by krove:
All they have to do is charge for it. $50, $100?

Apple would make a bundle...

nope. give it away for free. they'd rely on the iTMS revenue to fund it.

free = more users/potential music buyers

Appleman · May 10, 2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by krove:
All they have to do is charge for it. $50, $100?

Apple would make a bundle...

No, they have to give it for free. Make money in another way.

iTunes will be portted to Windows, as I understood from previous rumors and fact that Apple did put an ad at Monster which is gone now

ApeInTheShell · May 10, 2003, 04:42 AM

If
iTunes is free for Windows
then
shouldn't .Mac and the entire iLife
suite be included at no extra charge
else
Apple ports iTunes basic
Implements $20-$30 upgrade for
all the hoots and whistles on the mac.
end

Hozie · May 10, 2003, 08:26 AM

Guys, don't forget that by the time they have iTunes, we'll have Panther (probably 10.3.2 or something already) and the whole host of goodies it permits. I think that if Apple has decided to port iTunes, they are confident enough about their future software to do so.

I for one believe that Panther will make the whole Mac experience even more streamlined and will take OS X even further ahead of Win XP than it already is. And, considering Longhorn won't be out for another year and a half at best (more than 2 years at worst), I think the mac platform isn't in any danger from this iTunes for windows thing...

My 2 cents.

pliny · May 10, 2003, 09:09 AM

what do people use to play mp3s and organize their music on pcs? how do they compare to itunes? does anybody know and can they post something about it?

Hozie · May 10, 2003, 09:44 AM

Well, in my experience, people either use WinAmp or Windows Media Player. The former is a lightweight, .mp3 player that is highly customizable. For example, my brother has set it up so that it shows as a long bar at the bottom of his screen. He can see which song is playing, scroll forward, turn down the volume, select a playlist, etc...

The latter is an all-round bloated piece of MS software that many people use because it ships as a standard on Win XP. It theoretically has many features that iTunes has, but it manages those in a unintuitive way. I have had media player for ages on the PC and I never did get around to use it to organize my music...

What I did on the PC was to make a huge directory full of .mp3's and just name them logically. (i.e. Surname, Name - Song Name). If I then wanted to put things in a playlist, I just made the equivalent of aliases in a subdirectory. The advantage of XP is that when you navigate to a directory that holds .mp3's, you can click a button 'play all', which opens the tunes in Windows Media Player.

It's a rather crude way of doing playlist management, but hey, it's Windows, right?

. Anyways, praise Apple for iTunes

rmendis · May 10, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Producer:
First does anyone know what Apple is using for the itunes 4 music store? Are they using webcore? If so does that mean when Itunes 4 is brought to windows that webcore will be on windows...

Actually it is an interesting point.

I think iTunes 4 is a Cocoa app...in which case everybody knows that it is very easily ported to Windows. Though Cocoa has changed much since it's OPENSTEP days. Now it incorporates (or depends on) much of the Core* stuff as well. The Core* stuff should be very portable, so this isn't an issue, but it may also mean that the modern Cocoa along with Core* will soon be ported to Windows.

This opens up the possiblity for Apple to release Cocoa as a true cross-platform API/environment for both Windows and Mac OS X...as an additional incentive for developers to use it instead of Carbon.

What is for sure is that Cocoa is no longer dependent on DisplayPostScript as it now uses Quartz which is completely Apple owned technology. So perhaps the per user license fee issue is moot and Apple will be able to make the Cocoa environment on Windows a free runtime.?

FYI: the iTunes Music Store vends it's service as XML. Sort of like SOAP web services or .NET. So it can accommodate several clients.

My guess is that Apple chose to port iTunes, cos it was probably quicker and easier than getting a Windows player to support the iTunes Music Service.

Rickster · May 10, 2003, 10:36 AM

iTunes 4 isn't a cocoa app, and doesn't use WebCore. You can verify this by looking inside the application wrapper.

SoClose · May 10, 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Rickster:
iTunes 4 isn't a cocoa app, and doesn't use WebCore. You can verify this by looking inside the application wrapper.

Correct! Here's the listing of system frameworks that iTunes 4 links to:

/usr/lib/libz.1.1.3.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.1.3)
/usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 60.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Carbon (compatibility version 2.0.0, current version 122.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/IOKit.framework/Versions/A/IOKit (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 120.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/QuickTime.framework/Versions/A/QuickTime (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 171.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/vecLib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 135.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/AGL.framework/Versions/A/AGL (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/OpenGL (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreAudio.framework/Versions/A/CoreAudio (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/AudioUnit.framework/Versions/A/AudioUnit (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 14.0.0)
/System/Library/Frameworks/SystemConfiguration.framework/Versions/A/SystemConfiguration (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 53.0.0)

This listing is from the otool developer tool.

calumr · May 10, 2003, 11:04 AM

It doesn't link against the AppKit or Foundation frameworks:

Code:
% otool -L /Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes | grep "AppKit"

% otool -L /Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes | grep "Foundation"

There goes that theory...

vmpaul · May 10, 2003, 11:46 AM

How is Apple going to handle the DRM on a Windows platform? You know, the 3 machine authorization?

chabig · May 10, 2003, 11:48 AM

Call me naive, but I think iTunes for Windows would help encourage switchers. You see, we are all familiar with Windows because it rules the market, so we see the advantages of Mac OS on a daily basis.

But the Windows people just don't know squat about Macs. They don't know how great Macs are. They think Windows can't be improved upon. All we need to do it show them a few example of the quality of Mac software and their eyes may be opened enough that they are willing to take a look at a Mac.

tooki · May 10, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Producer:
...the itunes 4 music store?... when Itunes 4 ...

Mmmm, yeah... I guess you missed that big sticky thread about iTunes topics NOT belonging here.

iTunes isn't Mac OS X, it's an application. And Windows most certainly isn't OS X, it's... crap! And webcore isn't OS X, it's [currently] part of Safari, which is an application.

So post in the Software forum.

tooki