[budster101]

So, all of you anti-Americans out there, have a nice read.

To Kill an American

You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

So an Australian dentist wrote the following to let everyone know what an American is... so they would know when they found one. (Good on ya, mate!!!!)

An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek.

An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan.

An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.

An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim.

In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses.

An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.

An American lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the world.

The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each person to the pursuit of happiness.

An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need.

When the Soviet army overran Afghanistan 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country!

As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.

Americans welcome the best, the best products, the best books, the best music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the! least.< /I>

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.

Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2001 earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 other countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

So you can try to kill an American if you must.

Hitler did.

So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and every bloodthirsty tyrant in the history of the world.

But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.

Author unknown

Maybe after reading this some of you will finally, :::: get it :::: but I doubt it.

lata'

[BRussell]

Did you also believe the "Africa please help" and "Official notice to all eBay Customers" emails?

[Atomic Rooster]

By American they really mean any white skinned westerner.

[budster101]

Tell that to the other 2,300 who died in 9/11...

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by budster101

Tell that to the other 2,300 who died in 9/11...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

By American they really mean any white skinned westerner.

That would be mostly Canadians eh?

[xenu]

... "They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American. "

This bit made me laugh.

But then, I had only just finished reading this ...

"There's nothing quite as powerful as insiders telling it like it is. For years now we've had well-intentioned outsiders saying that the Guantanamo Bay military commission is flawed and designed to produce fabricated results. The three leaked emails that emerged this week from officers working within the US military commission apparatus blow the whistle on just how rigged, fixed, flawed and farcical is the trial process for alien enemy combatants held at Guantanamo Bay.

The British Attorney-General, Lord Goldsmith, has argued that the US process is unacceptable because it does not meet international standards of fairness.

Lord Steyne, a British appellate judge, has said that the US authorities were making "a preordained arbitrary rush to judgement by an irregular tribunal, which makes a mockery of justice".

The Brits were so incensed by what the Americans were proposing by way of the Guantanamo Bay trials that they insisted their citizens be sent home. Since arriving in Britain those detainees have been released, although some are under surveillance, nothing solid having been found to require their further incarceration.

Lex Lasry's comprehensive reports for the Law Council of Australia have been hammering out the same message with vast amounts of detailed assessment.

In what is now a cringing embarrassment for Australia, we have John Howard, Philip Ruddock and Alexander Downer insisting the US military commissions couldn't be fairer. George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales are the remaining few people in the world who agree."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/n...125851922.html

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by xenu

The Brits were so incensed by what the Americans were proposing by way of the Guantanamo Bay trials that they insisted their citizens be sent home.

No. Just the gobby leftist ones - the majority of us were quite happy with the job being done at Gitmo.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. Just the gobby leftist ones - the majority of us were quite happy with the job being done at Gitmo.

Link?

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. Just the gobby leftist ones - the majority of us were quite happy with the job being done at Gitmo.

I'm a conservative and I actually detest what's going on down there. Lets just "detain" anybody without due process who we may think is a threat.

[James L]

I agree with some parts of this, and totally disagree with others. I actually laughed at this part:

When the Soviet army overran Afghanistan 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country!

The US motives in Afghanistan had nothing to do with rescueing the poor Afghani people... and everything to do with fighting the spread of communism. The US did not directly help the Afghani people by putting ground troops down to fight the USSR, and when Russia pulled out, the US basically totally turned their back on Afghanistan, allowing what would become the Taliban to come to prominence (oh yeah, during the whole process they also trained and funded Osama).

Sorry, nope, I don't buy at all that the US motives in Afghanistan in the 80's where anything but self serving.

I could pick other holes in your post apart, but I understand that you posted it in good faith, in good spirit, and that the US has done a lot of good in the world too, so I won't.

Cheers,

James

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Link?

Kind of hard to link to real people who one meets in the pub.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Kind of hard to link to real people who one meets in the pub.

I know Brits like to go to the pub but I never thought that those few one met would constitute the majority of Brits. You learn something new every day, don't you?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I know Brits like to go to the pub but I never thought that those few one met would constitute the majority of Brits. You learn something new every day, don't you?

One extrapolates local findings (i.e. I've only ever met one person who was against Gitmo) and mixes them with other findings, such as an 80%+ support for the police action in shooting that Brazilian guy (which there is a link for but I can't find it at the moment).

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

One extrapolates local findings (i.e. I've only ever met one person who was against Gitmo) and mixes them with other findings, such as an 80%+ support for the police action in shooting that Brazilian guy (which there is a link for but I can't find it at the moment).

I take it you don't work and have probably never been educated in empirical science? Your "local" findings will give you the results of your friends. Your friends will mostly have similar views to you(Just is that way in life). But since your views aren't representative of the majority in Britain your local findings are worthless. Next time try to be honest and just say "Well my buddies from the pub all agree with me". That way you are both honest and I won't have to point out the obvious flaws in your "reasoning".

And you've been saying that about the poll about the Brazilian who was executed but been completely unable to find it. Let me guess. You found it on Kill-A-Muslim.com but haven't been able to find it on any reputable sites?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I take it you don't work

For half the year, correct.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

and have probably never been educated in empirical science?

Correct.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Your "local" findings will give you the results of your friends. Your friends will mostly have similar views to you(Just is that way in life). But since your views aren't representative of the majority in Britain your local findings are worthless. Next time try to be honest and just say "Well my buddies from the pub all agree with me". That way you are both honest and I won't have to point out the obvious flaws in your "reasoning".

You only ever speak to your buddies while you're out and about? How boring.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And you've been saying that about the poll about the Brazilian who was executed but been completely unable to find it. Let me guess. You found it on Kill-A-Muslim.com but haven't been able to find it on any reputable sites?

I believe it was Sky News.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

For half the year, correct. Correct.

It shows

You only ever speak to your buddies while you're out and about? How boring.

This is one of the most amazing back-peddles I've ever seen. You've gone from the majority(speaking about Brits), to your friends at the pub, to your friends. That actually takes some skills but I can't wait to see the next step in this attempt of yours

I believe it was Sky News.

I believe it was kill-a-muslim.com. All you need to do is provide a link and if it was sky news it shouldn't be so difficult for you to dig it up.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

It shows

Yep. Oh well. We can't all be stuck in crappy jobs all year round, can we?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

This is one of the most amazing back-peddles I've ever seen. You've gone from the majority(speaking about Brits), to your friends at the pub, to your friends. That actually takes some skills but I can't wait to see the next step in this attempt of yours

What are you talking about? Go reread it. You accuse me of only talking to friends about it (i.e. assuming that the only people I speak to down at the pub are friends). I simply stated that you must have a very boring life if you only ever talk to friends in the pub - we tend to end up in conversations with complete strangers (which is the whole point of the pub - to meet people - if one only ever wanted to talk to friends one would have house parties and save on beer costs).

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I believe it was kill-a-muslim.com. All you need to do is provide a link and if it was sky news it shouldn't be so difficult for you to dig it up.

No, it was on Sky News, July 24th. I just don't know what they do with their "elapsed" polls.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yep. Oh well. We can't all be stuck in crappy jobs all year round, can we?

oooh, now it's a crappy job. That almost hurt

What are you talking about? Go reread it. You accuse me of only talking to friends about it (i.e. assuming that the only people I speak to down at the pub are friends). I simply stated that you must have a very boring life if you only ever talk to friends in the pub - we tend to end up in conversations with complete strangers (which is the whole point of the pub - to meet people - if one only ever wanted to talk to friends one would have house parties and save on beer costs).

yada yada yada. Still people at "your" pub. bah, don't know why I bother, you won't understand.....

No, it was on Sky News, July 24th. I just don't know what they do with their "elapsed" polls.

They haven't got a single story mentioning that poll. Perhaps Kill-A-Muslim.com is lying to you?

[Macrobat]

Couldn't find the poll, Doofy, but here is a link to another forum where Brits are discussing the poll when it was current.

http://www.ukipforum.co.uk/about4991-0.html


Appears he's correct Illogic. Need help with that knee?

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by James L

I agree with some parts of this, and totally disagree with others. I actually laughed at this part:



The US motives in Afghanistan had nothing to do with rescueing the poor Afghani people... and everything to do with fighting the spread of communism. The US did not directly help the Afghani people by putting ground troops down to fight the USSR, and when Russia pulled out, the US basically totally turned their back on Afghanistan, allowing what would become the Taliban to come to prominence (oh yeah, during the whole process they also trained and funded Osama).

Sorry, nope, I don't buy at all that the US motives in Afghanistan in the 80's where anything but self serving.

I could pick other holes in your post apart, but I understand that you posted it in good faith, in good spirit, and that the US has done a lot of good in the world too, so I won't.

Cheers,

James

That email is pretty stupid. I am all for america but that trys to make us sound perfect, which we are far form. That stuff is very idealistic.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

Couldn't find the poll, Doofy, but here is a link to another forum where Brits are discussing the poll when it was current.

http://www.ukipforum.co.uk/about4991-0.html


Appears he's correct Illogic. Need help with that knee?

How long did it take for you to think up "Illogic"? I hope you didn't get a headache.

Now, lets deal with your link.

1. I might have missed it but I didn't see the question asked in the poll. Could you point it out?

2. Sherwin said 80%+. The numbers mentioned in that thread is 76%.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

oooh, now it's a crappy job. That almost hurt

Well, you brought jobs into it.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

yada yada yada. Still people at "your" pub. bah, don't know why I bother, you won't understand.....

Wow. You only go to one pub? How boring is your life?
It's not unusual to go to 10 a night here.

I'm probably within comfortable "night-out" driving distance of in excess of 5,000 pubs (Heck, there's four of them in my little village (population: about a hundred)), over half of which I've probably been to. We get around a lot. When you do this and actually talk to the scary strangers in those pubs, you get a pretty good idea of the national feeling about most things.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

They haven't got a single story mentioning that poll. Perhaps Kill-A-Muslim.com is lying to you?

See the third article down here? That was the poll. You'll note that if you click on it it doesn't go to the appropriate results. Not my fault if the sky.com webmaster doesn't know what he's doing.

74% said the shoot to kill policy shouldn't be reviewed - i.e. 74% of folks are happy with the shooting in the circumstances.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

2. Sherwin said 80%+. The numbers mentioned in that thread is 76%.

I monitored that poll. It varied between 74% and 85% as it went on (as live, active polls do). 80% was the average.
Sorry. I'll use the lowest figure: 74%. Still a bit of a majority.

[Zenbone]

Originally Posted by budster101

Maybe after reading this some of you will finally, :::: get it :::: but I doubt it.

Please, just let us snatch the pebble from your hand so we can go home.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Well, you brought jobs into it.

I was pointing out the flaws in your "extrapolation" of the "results" you got when you were out drinking. And guessed why that was. I was right.

Wow. You only go to one pub? How boring is your life?
It's not unusual to go to 10 a night here.

I'm probably within comfortable "night-out" driving distance of in excess of 5,000 pubs (Heck, there's four of them in my little village (population: about a hundred)), over half of which I've probably been to. We get around a lot. When you do this and actually talk to the scary strangers in those pubs, you get a pretty good idea of the national feeling about most things.

Yup, I live such a boring life. Can you please teach me how to have fun, oh master?

Like I said, you don't get the flaw in your "reasoning". I won't bother you more with it.

See the third article down here? That was the poll. You'll note that if you click on it it doesn't go to the appropriate results. Not my fault if the sky.com webmaster doesn't know what he's doing.

74% said the shoot to kill policy shouldn't be reviewed - i.e. 74% of folks are happy with the shooting in the circumstances.

Yup, I finally found it.

But the question was not about the shooting of the Brazilian. It was about the shoot-to-kill policy.

"Shoot to kill: Should the policy be reviewed?"

Again you screw up in your attempt. It's about the shoot to kill policy. The shoot to kill policy states that if the police is 100% certain that a man poses a threat then they can shoot to kill.

The poll says nothing about how happy people are about the execution of an innocent man late for work.

You've now gone from claiming the majority of Brits supports what's done in Gitmo to saying 80%+ are happy about the shooting of the innocent Brazilian.

I've shown you to be wrong on the latter. Will you now try to prove your first claim?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I monitored that poll. It varied between 74% and 85% as it went on (as live, active polls do). 80% was the average.
Sorry. I'll use the lowest figure: 74%. Still a bit of a majority.

1. It's an online, non-scientific poll.

2. It said nothing about the execution of the innocent Brazilian.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I was pointing out the flaws in your "extrapolation" of the "results" you got when you were out drinking. And guessed why that was. I was right.

Bzzzzt. Wrong again. I don't go out "drinking". I don't drink. I go out "talking".

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yup, I live such a boring life. Can you please teach me how to have fun, oh master?

No. You are not ready for such things, young jedi.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

But the question was not about the shooting of the Brazilian. It was about the shoot-to-kill policy.

"Shoot to kill: Should the policy be reviewed?"

Again you screw up in your attempt. It's about the shoot to kill policy. The shoot to kill policy states that if the police is 100% certain that a man poses a threat then they can shoot to kill.

The poll says nothing about how happy people are about the execution of an innocent man late for work.

The poll was started the day after the Brazilian was shot - in direct response to his shooting. You can read it as "Shoot to kill: in light of the shooting of an innocent man late to work, should the policy be reviewed". Context, my friend, context. How can it not be related?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You've now gone from claiming the majority of Brits supports what's done in Gitmo to saying 80%+ are happy about the shooting of the innocent Brazilian.

I've said that the majority of Brits are "quite happy" with what's being done at Gitmo, not "support" what's being done. That's because most of us simply don't care.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

How long did it take for you to think up "Illogic"? I hope you didn't get a headache.

Now, lets deal with your link.

1. I might have missed it but I didn't see the question asked in the poll. Could you point it out?

2. Sherwin said 80%+. The numbers mentioned in that thread is 76%.

Not long at all, simply read a few of your older posts and saw your "old" nick - the conclusion was obvious.

1. No, obviously, I cannot - but I think the inference as to the gist of it is again, obvious, from the responses, which you virtually acknowledge with your #2 in the quoted post.

2. So shoot him, he missed by an entire 4 percentage points. I've personally witnessed "misses" by you with a wider margin.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Originally Posted by von Wrangell
I know Brits like to go to the pub but I never thought that those few one met would constitute the majority of Brits. You learn something new every day, don't you?

Originally Posted by Doofy

One extrapolates local findings (i.e. I've only ever met one person who was against Gitmo) and mixes them with other findings, such as an 80%+ support for the police action in shooting that Brazilian guy (which there is a link for but I can't find it at the moment).

If one can extrapolate from a bunch of alkys in a pub.

100% of your tiny islanders are drunks, smoke too much, tell bullsh!t stories, like toothless women, etc, etc....

[Hawkeye_a]

great definition of 'An American' in the initial post.

And also, i think when ppl in the middle east refer to 'Americans' they refer to 'white westerners'. Thats the general stereotype imo.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

100% of your tiny islanders are drunks, smoke too much, tell bullsh!t stories, like toothless women, etc, etc....

Nope. I've got that running at about 98% at the moment.

[analogika]

One note: Online polls are complete and utter bull.

a) they require people to find them, rather than the other way around.

b) they require the people that find them to take enough interest to actually read them.

c) they require those who actually bothered to read them to actually participate.

This necessarily implies that the only people who participate in online polls are those who are strongly opinionated, and who happen to read the sites where the respective polls are posted.

It's like those Mac-related polls that are occasionally linked to here, that invariably end up with 98% or some such bull figure in favor of the Mac.

Representative?

Right.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika

One note: Online polls are complete and utter bull.

Hey, newsflash. All polls are complete and utter bull. This is why it's best to go talk to the mythical "man in the street".

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Hey, newsflash. All polls are complete and utter bull. This is why it's best to go talk to the mythical "man in the street".

Actually, there is a whole science built around trying to determine just who this "man in the street" is, and where to find him, and then attempting to do so.

Results vary, but they do tend to be a *whole* lot more trustworthy (read: representative of general public opinion) than anecdotes from somebody's last pub visit, related on a web board.

Of course, you know that.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by James L

The US motives in Afghanistan had nothing to do with rescueing the poor Afghani people... and everything to do with fighting the spread of communism. The US did not directly help the Afghani people by putting ground troops down to fight the USSR, and when Russia pulled out, the US basically totally turned their back on Afghanistan, allowing what would become the Taliban to come to prominence (oh yeah, during the whole process they also trained and funded Osama).

If you read about the guys at the CIA who ran the program, the motive was even simpler: it was revenge for Vietnam. When Gust Avrakotos was brought into the Afghanistan program, he was told, simply, "we're killing Russians." Most excellent book on the subject.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

If you read about the guys at the CIA who ran the program, the motive was even simpler: it was revenge for Vietnam. When Gust Avrakotos was brought into the Afghanistan program, he was told, simply, "we're killing Russians." Most excellent book on the subject.

Interesting... and not surprising.

Thanks for the linkage!

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by budster101

So, all of you anti-Americans out there, have a nice read.

An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek.

An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan.

An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.

An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim.

..etc.

So, if you are from another country, you are not American, but if you are American, you are everyone?!?!?!?!?

How does it work with passports again?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Hey, newsflash. All polls are complete and utter bull. This is why it's best to go talk to the mythical "man in the street".

Ooops?

I smell utter ignorance here!

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by James L

Interesting... and not surprising.

Thanks for the linkage!

It's a very interesting book – dispels a lot of the myths about the war. The White House wasn't involved until the very end, as they were too busy creating the Iran-Contra mess.

[olePigeon]

You don't have to support the government and its administration to support your country and your beliefs. The Constitution was designed with that principle in mind.

You're mistaking "anti-American" for "they-didnt-vote-for-Bush-and/or-don't-support-the-war-in-Iraq-so-they-must-be-anti-American-terrorist-loving-tree-hugging-hippie-lefty-liberals."

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Kind of hard to link to real people who one meets in the pub.

Kind of hard to use the people one meets in the pub as representative of the entire population.

[James L]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

You don't have to support the government and its administration to support your country and your beliefs. The Constitution was designed with that principle in mind.

So very, very true. One is not being unpatriotic when they question the actions of the government. Indeed, you could say that a person who questions the actions of their government, in an effort to keep them honest and on track, is much more patriotic than the person who blindly follows the government without question.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Kind of hard to use the people one meets in the pub as representative of the entire population.

Not in Britain, where almost the entire population goes to the pub.

[Myrkridia]

Originally Posted by budster101

So, all of you anti-Americans out there, have a nice read.



Maybe after reading this some of you will finally, :::: get it :::: but I doubt it.

lata'

Get what?

[budster101]

Well, I'm honored that you have revisited many of my threads. Welcome.

To answer your question. Indeed.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

You don't have to support the government and its administration to support your country and your beliefs. The Constitution was designed with that principle in mind.

You're mistaking "anti-American" for "they-didnt-vote-for-Bush-and/or-don't-support-the-war-in-Iraq-so-they-must-be-anti-American-terrorist-loving-tree-hugging-hippie-lefty-liberals."

I agree with you olePigeon and I'd like to add;

If you loathe the leadership and your critique of their policy is vitriolic in nature; you are anti-American.

If you spend more time critiquing American policy both foreign and domestic than you do in providing solutions to problems, you are anti-American.

If you appreciate 20% of our culture, but would seek to change or remove the remaining 80% of our culture, you are anti-American. This includes language, party system, representative government...

If you prefer socialism over capitalism, you are likely anti-American.

If you find you must stretch interpretation of the Constitution to fit your view, you are pro-you and anti-American.

Lastly, If you hate football you are likely anti-American or rather; if you believe football is soccer, you're probably anti-American.

[Myrkridia]

Originally Posted by budster101

Well, I'm honored that you have revisited many of my threads. Welcome.

To answer your question. Indeed.

You going to annouce it everytime I post in one of your threads?