Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

jwtseng · Jun 4, 2002, 01:20 AM

Well, circumstances are dictating that I open my world to a dual-platform reality in order to further increase my productivity, so now I'm in the market for a PC Laptop. Virtual PC on my Ti 800 is very useable, but it is no match for a real PC.

So knowing that I'm a completely hardcore Mac user, what portable PC solutions should I consider. I figure money, for now, is not really an issue...I mean, heck, I am willing to spend the dough on a PowerBook...

Can someone point me in the right direction to wade through the myriad of PC choices? I want the best.

icruise · Jun 4, 2002, 01:37 AM

I don't think there is any particular PC laptop that will be good for you as a "mac user" -- you need to think what you will be using it for and find something that can do what you need to. What exactly do you require of your PC?

seanyepez · Jun 4, 2002, 03:45 AM

If you're looking for something light and very capable, look no further than the Sony VAIO VX-series notebooks. They've got insane battery life and built-in 802.11b. It's the most "Mac-like" PC portable out there. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

The machine comes with a snappy, 850-megahertz Pentium III processor. While this won't be enough for any kind of serious 3D gaming (Return to Castle Wolfenstein), Quake III runs at about 60-80 frames per second if configured properly.

You might want to look into the R505-series notebooks from Sony, too. They're smaller, but they're not quite as sleek, have cramped keyboards, and aren't as easy to read. However, they're faster and more compact. The R505 also has an XGA resolution on its TFT.

If you're looking for a desktop-replacement PC notebook, I recommend Dell's Inspiron 8200. Sony's alternative, the GRX-series notebooks, are ten pounds heavy (including AC adapter). Dell's systems are a little more reasonable at seven or eight pounds (including AC adapter). The screen's bigger on the VAIO, but 16.1 inches is a bit excessive.

Don't get anything from Compaq. Their notebooks are of the lowest quality and have terrible quality problems. No typical Compaq notebook functions completely for very long.

KellyHogan · Jun 4, 2002, 04:38 AM

Dell is the only choice. Fast, cheap and very good build quaility. The support is also the best you can get.

Daniel_R · Jun 4, 2002, 04:44 AM

PC notebooks...

I went for a trip down to my local PC retailer on the weekend and had a look (while I was getting some other stuff)... Shocked... the design of these things haven't gone anywhere - for those that thought the original iBook (the toilet seat / clamshell) was clunky in size... the HP omnibook (generally all of the current models) have about the same profile as my PB5300! There was an AMD powered notebook (I think it may have been a Compaq) that was just sitting there, showing the winXP login dialogue box, with the fan running (toasty warm air coming out)... didn't give me a good impression - I'm not bagging AMD processors (I simply detest intel stuff) but temp wise it was beyond what I would call "acceptable" - it shouldn't need to have any fan going while on the login screen!

Anyway, in my experience I've found: (I'm in Australia, the possibility exists that models / manufactures may vary or not exist)

IBM thinkpad: Performace / price usually good. Most if not all ThinkPads come with the "pencil eraser" trackpoint device, not a trackpad like on your PowerBook. Most PB users will get instantly annoyed with the "eraser"... portability / profile - has been quite bulky in the past, they've slimmed it down a bit, but still remains "angular". Not much case style.

Compaq (think they call theirs Amada?) - Some good case designs, reasonable performance, sometimes shoddy reliability and construction. You get JBL speakers built in (superior to those on the iBook.. I know that). Reasonable screens and battery life. Use trackpads.

Toshiba (Tecra + Satellite): one is a much higher spec'd model, can't remember which is which - think TiBook vs iBook. A veteran of the PC notebook world, they have probably some of the best designs and reliability, however there are reports of problems with customer service and repairs. Design is valued by Toshiba for the notebooks at about the same level of importance as at apple. Recently switched completely (I think) to all trackpad designs. Probably my choice, they know what they are doing.

Dell: best pronouced as per New Zealand accent... Dull. They have alright graphics, alright performace, their optical drive choices are usually skimpy or expensive to upgrade to say a combo DVD/cd-rw. Their cases are crap.

HP omnibook: built like a brick, way too much extra plastic around the LCD. HP should advertise theirs as "Only 2.5 inches thin!" Keyboard feels dated compared to other modern notebooks - keys feel heavy and a little like the notebooks of old where it was hard to get a decent typing speed. Clunky stupid buttons along the top of keyboard, not very elegant. Like the compaq 486 notebooks of old.

Acer: One model they have has DDR ram on it, so thats probably indicating that its going to be an alright performer. Design is a bit square.

Thats about all that I have had recent experience with. All of them sadly still... place way too much emphasis on the floppy drive.

Check out the VAIO's like Seanyepez said, never used one, but all reviews I have read rate them positively. Don't be conned by the "Memory stick" features... Memory stick is crap.

Beware of "clone" branded notebooks. Most are terrible, dont last very long or a just plain crap. Some in the past have even used ordinary desktop processors in them (battery life = down quickly). You pay for what you get.

Hope that helps.

[ 06-04-2002, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Daniel_R ]

urrl5201 · Jun 4, 2002, 07:48 AM

Look into the Compaq 2700 series. With firewire and other Mac like ports, I have a friend who has one and is well pleased. The notebook is what, 1.3" thin? And the screen is 15" with higher resolution SXGA and won't get fuzzy when set to the lower XGA resolution like the PB.

From a Macworld forum:
"Now, I prefer the 2700 series. First, I want to have Firewire on the system instead of having to buy a separate PC card for it. Secondly, it features a big 15.1" screen whereas the 2800 series features the 14.1" screen unless you order it directly from Compaq with the larger screen. Thirdly, having two disk drives, DVD-Rom and CD/CDRW drives is really nice because you can record from disk-to-disk if you'd like (whereas with a single drive you need to save it to the hard drive and then save it to disk).

Compaq notebooks feature HUGE keyboards that are VERY nice. I can honestly say that it's nicer than the Titanium Powerbook keyboard by FAR. It's very solid and is relatively quiet and has a very nice spring to it. No flexing. It's also the largest notebook keyboard on the consumer market: A full 12.1" wide.

The Compaq system came as is (without my own personal upgrades via hard drive and memory) for $1399 after $150 rebate. That's pretty cheap.

But the other thing that makes me think that Compaq is a good purchase? I've dealt with their technical support service department on many occasions previously for company issues and it's incredibly easy to obtain help for any issues that might arise. The other thing? A 2-year extended warranty (making it 3 years total) is only an extra $99 and features 24/7 technical and software support for a full 3 years.

Yeah, I know that it isn't Mac OS X, but Windows is not the same OS that it used to be. XP is truly a good OS. I tried out Photoshop on the Compaq today and it's comparable to the Titanium. Maybe it's because I have a lot of ram in the system.

Anyway, I'd RATHER work on an Apple system but I'm truly starting to believe that Apple needs to let other companies use Mac OS on their systems. I can't figure out why Apple doesn't, to be honest. What is there to be afraid of? If Apple systems are substandard and they can't keep quality control alive and well, let someone else do it.

Because I consider myself a diehard Mac user and if I'm willing to concede defeat and consider a PC notebook, not because of OS failure but because of continual hardware failures, then other people might be considering the same.

Just my experience."

I hear they are phasing the 2700 model out; you won't find them on the Compaq site any more, but they are everywhere commercially, CompUSA, Circuit city, etc. This would be my choice, over the bulky, thick Dell 8200 Inspiron, which is still a fine desktop replacement...but not a road warrior candidate in my opinion.

[ 06-04-2002, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: urrl5201 ]

drmbb2 · Jun 4, 2002, 08:05 AM

So, Daniel_R, what exactly do you consider a "clone" pc laptop. The actual number of major manufacturers of intel laptops can be counted on your hands. Companies (most with their factories in Taiwan) like Compal (made/make Zenith and Dell models), ASE (made/make WinBook and IBM models), Featron, Inventec, Acer (made/makes Canon and IBM models), etc are the companies that actually make the Dells, IBMs, WinBooks, Compaqs, etc that people buy. For awhile, ChemBook and Dell shared the same manufacturer (may still, I'm not sure), and even the same case manufacturer, yet the Dells were much pricier than their ChemBook copies.

Some of the ChemBook, Sager and Twinhead laptops I've used are certainly equal in quality, and often superior, to major name brands like Dell and IBM. In fact, I consider TwinHead to sell some of the best built laptops available.

Don't necessarily buy into the myth that you must buy a laptop with some major "BigCorp's" initials on it - under the hood (and even the hood itself) there is often very little, if any, significant difference in components to less well known companies (and ChemBook and Twinhead, for example, are hardly newbies, nor rookies, to the business). The bottom line is, most companies that sell laptops do not make them - they contract that out to a handful of companies who often are, literally, simultaneously making models for a half-dozen or so resellers (often in the very same factory).

richf · Jun 4, 2002, 09:36 AM

The Sonys are the least offensive for those used to the mac aesthetic.

Matsu · Jun 4, 2002, 09:43 AM

You really have to decide exactly what you'll be doing with the PC. I take it the mac handles the majority of your needs. A good question to ask is, "Do I really NEED another laptop?" Even though manoey may be no object, I don't see anyone toting TWO notebooks around. You can get a VERY CHEAP, low-end PC, in a small desktop or mini-tower config, that'll run faster than VirtualPC and cost about the same as virtualPC+Windows. A properly configured budget desktop will also run neck and neck with a much higher-end laptop.

No real need to double up expenses.

hushmail · Jun 4, 2002, 09:46 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by richf:
The Sonys are the least offensive for those used to the mac aesthetic.<hr /></blockquote>My parents taught me that it's inner beauty which counts

rampant · Jun 4, 2002, 10:20 AM

I can vouch for the Compaq 2700. My favorite laptop yet.

webb3201 · Jun 4, 2002, 10:37 AM

I will second a vote for the Vaio line. Sony is similar to Apple in wanting to build interesting products. The machines are well built and fun to use.

While Dell offers stong support, the machines drive me crazy due to the total lack of elegance in build. They all feel like big heavy bricks and are "rickety". I can barely stand using my new Dell.
h

jtc · Jun 4, 2002, 10:45 AM

Before I bought my iBook I was also considering PC notebooks. I found two I really liked, and it was a tough decision among the three.

The <a href="http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=AF" target="_blank">Fujitsu S series</a> is the same size and price as the iBook series, spec'd even or slightly better for the price, and looks nice for a PC laptop.

The <a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/r505/index.shtml" target="_blank">Sony R505</a> is smaller and lighter, spec'd better than the iBooks (it's more like the tibooks) and looks nice. The price is comparable to the Ti G4s, too.

Brit Ben · Jun 4, 2002, 10:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jwtseng:


Can someone point me in the right direction to wade through the myriad of PC choices? I want the best.<hr /></blockquote>So, I just did this about a week ago after much deliberation. I'll incurr some wrath by saying straight out:

DONT BUY A VAIO.

The construction quality is frankly crap. They look good, but thats about it. XP has serious issues on the Vaio range, as per recent press coverage.

I bought a Compaq. The new N800c is a beautiful machine. A little thicker than the TIPB, but 15" display at a nice resolution (1400 x 1050) running off an ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 graphics with 64MB DDR RAM.

<img src="http://www.compaq.com/products/notebooks/n800c/images/n800c.jpg" alt=" - " />

1.8 GHz Pentium 4, 512Mb to 2048 Mb RAM, 60 Gig HDD, integral 802.11b, no firewire which is a PITA, but USB 2.0 Internal modem, 10/100 ethernet, nice keyboard, all the other useful stuff.

A very nice machine...

You can get further info here:

<a href="http://www.compaq.com/products/quickspecs/11344_na/11344_na.html" target="_blank">Compaq N800c Technical specs</a>

Oh, I guess I should say I don't work for either Compaq or HP, but I'm a demanding user. I'm sure people won't believe me, but hey

Best,
Ben.

[ 06-04-2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Brit Ben ]

urrl5201 · Jun 4, 2002, 12:24 PM

I don't think lack of firewire is a good idea. Are there ANY camcorders out there that use USB 2.0, I mean 3 CCD semi pro like the Sony TRV900, VX2000, Cannon GL1, etc?
I would never purchase a laptop without firewire unless I knew I could connect it by USB 2 to a good quality cam.

itai195 · Jun 4, 2002, 12:40 PM

You pretty much can't go wrong with Sony, Toshiba, IBM, or Fujitsu. Stay away from Dell, their build quality is crap. IBM is expensive but their notebooks are built like tanks (even the thin ones) and will last you a long time. Toshiba is probably the best performance for the price. Fujitsu makes some quality notebooks as well -- if you want something iBook sized they have an interesting offering you should take a look at. Sony is the most Mac-like PC maker, their laptops are stylish and generall feature a full complement of ports. Though I've never tried a Gateway laptop, their newest offerings are receiving a lot of praise, especially for the price. Might be worth checking those out too. Don't get a Compaq or HP, I've just generally found that you can find better laptops from other manufacturers for the same prices.

kiskiboy · Jun 4, 2002, 02:51 PM

What are your thoughts on the Gateway 600XL? It is a pretty attractive notebook aesthetically and has good specs. I have heard mixed things on the Gateway line though. I am currently debating wether I should upgrade my iBook ("toilet seat" 466mhz, 320 MB RAM) to a Ti Book 800 DVI or keep the iBook and also pick up a PC laptop. I am using it for education, and while my school supports Macs, it is still mostly Windows... <img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

If VirtualPC (Win 2000 version) is useable on a ti book w/ a GB RAM, then I would get the Ti Book (I don't plan on any games so the preformance should be OK). However I am a little concerned abot the build quality of the Ti. I have heard they scratch, chip, and boil easily and that has me a little worried.

davidflas · Jun 4, 2002, 03:33 PM

Check out this Dell <a href="http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=555&order_code=WSM50PAD" target="_blank">Precison Laptop.</a> It's looks killer!

rampant · Jun 4, 2002, 03:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kiskiboy:
What are your thoughts on the Gateway 600XL? It is a pretty attractive notebook aesthetically and has good specs. I have heard mixed things on the Gateway line though. I am currently debating wether I should upgrade my iBook ("toilet seat" 466mhz, 320 MB RAM) to a Ti Book 800 DVI or keep the iBook and also pick up a PC laptop. I am using it for education, and while my school supports Macs, it is still mostly Windows... <img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

If VirtualPC (Win 2000 version) is useable on a ti book w/ a GB RAM, then I would get the Ti Book (I don't plan on any games so the preformance should be OK). However I am a little concerned abot the build quality of the Ti. I have heard they scratch, chip, and boil easily and that has me a little worried.<hr /></blockquote>I'd go for the gateway. Looks very svelte, and had desktop level + performance.

Xaositect · Jun 4, 2002, 04:41 PM

From a repair person's perspective:

Sony- great service in warranty, god-awful prices on components out of warranty. Send in like Apple.

HP/Compaq- some send in only, some site repair. Good in warranty, ok prices out.

Toshiba- some send in, some site repair. Good warranty, best prices out of warranty except LCD screens (ouch!).

Dell- send in only. No parts available out of warranty, but Dell will fix it if you pay them.

Gateway- send in only. they won't fix them out of warranty (so get the three year extended if you get this).

All others- not enough experience to say.

for completeness:
Apple- Great service in warranty, send in only. Prices on parts high until warranties expire, at which time they drop to being in line with others. (Apple's stated policy is to discourage using warranty parts for upgrades.)

I don't know how often you need service, so weigh as you see fit.

Good luck!

Daniel_R · Jun 4, 2002, 10:49 PM

drmbb2, sorry about that, I'll clear it up:

I said:
Beware of "clone" branded notebooks. Most are terrible, dont last very long or a just plain crap.

I did not mean for that to be interpreted as "All clones are crap".
I agree, most computers are not made by their "badge" company, even apple's computers are made under contract, not in the US, but by some company elsewhere. - I think I have a mac plus keyboard around here stamped "Made in Ireland"
I just personally believe that companies like Toshiba have far greater experience in the design of notebook computers... I recall a Toshiba 286 "Laptop" (which should have been called "benchtop") i used to use... it had a 5.25" Floppy drive... [illustrating they have been around a while]

I just wanted to point out that one should be aware that there is a percentage of clones out there that just aren't up to the mark. In the past, I have came across some that weren't so great.

Two of the worst examples:

1. Brand "Kiwi". The processor was placed in a position where it had inadequate ventilation. The heat destroyed the on-board sound and the RAM went bad. The processor had to be replaced with a slower one, the memory had to also be replaced. It cannot run off batteries, they no longer work (it used Ni-Cad batteries, my old PB5300cs uses Ni-MH even), its strictly a power supply machine.

2. It didn't have a brand. On button broke off in the first week. Batteries were always (yes, it had two of them) hot. When the thing was sent back to get the on button fixed, the tech guys couldn't get the keyboard off (it didn't have the clip down style keyboard, but a screwed on one), they left pry/lever marks on the palm rest. Difficult to add memory. More problems with batteries : the contacts on the batteries were copper, they often oxidized over, you had to clean them up before you could get it going again. It was so unreliable, it went to company auction when it was just 2.5 months old. It went for about AUD$400 (USD$200).

I'm sure there are some great clone notebooks out there. Some may/probably do have "mainstream" manufacturer boards in them. Again, I have nothing against clones, in fact if I need a PC desktop system, I build it myself, I know whats going in that way - clones often offer a greater abilility to be customized.

Probably one of the most important things to look for when buying a notebook is good support. When a notebook breaks down, unfortunately its not like repairing a dead desktop system - you cant just rip out your DVD drive and replace it with another 5.25" drive - most notebooks use some sort of proprietary modular device (on notebooks with an expansion bay).

Have a good look around before you buy. The choices are not so clear in the PC notebook market as what they are in the Apple world... TiBook or iBook...

drmbb2, I hope no offence was taken.

rek · Jun 4, 2002, 11:33 PM

I would only ever consider buying an IBM ThinkPad. They are built like tanks, and the after-sales support is excellent. They also look "purposeful", and don't have any excess useless junk plastic "design"/ugliness that most vendors seem to think they need.

It's very much a matter of "you get what you pay for."

seanyepez · Jun 5, 2002, 12:28 AM

Compaq notebooks? <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

They're terrible. They have the worst build quality yet!

VAIO's have never given me problems before. My VAIO runs Windows XP.

I don't recommend Compaq notebooks.

Mac Zealot · Jun 5, 2002, 12:37 AM

Compaqs are nothing but crap.

I'm surprised nobody has reccomended that ugly alienware, aka hugabee, aka ecs, aka etc, etc, etc, laptop that's almost a 'desknote'

I Have Questions · Jun 5, 2002, 12:49 AM

Thinkpad, Thinkpad, and Thinkpad. The only 3 PC notebooks worth a dime.

seanyepez · Jun 5, 2002, 01:14 AM

ThinkPads aren't for "hardcore Mac users". They're not innovative, they're not well-designed machines, and they've got aesthetics that would make an Apple fan cringe. Their hardware isn't great, either. However, they're solid machines with very consistent build quality. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

Personally, I'd get a T-series IBM notebook over a Compaq, though.

itai195 · Jun 5, 2002, 02:53 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xaositect:
Apple- Great service in warranty, send in only. Prices on parts high until warranties expire, at which time they drop to being in line with others.<hr /></blockquote>Just as a note, this isn't entirely true now with the Apple stores. I brought in my PowerBook to have the battery and DVD drive replaced in the store just a few weeks ago.

Good points though, service is always an essential thing to consider when buying a laptop -- they break all the time... To be honest though, I've never seen an IBM ThinkPad break. They cost a pretty penny, but they seriously are made to last. We still have a 12 year old 486 ThinkPad that works!

I Have Questions · Jun 5, 2002, 03:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by seanyepez:
ThinkPads aren't for "hardcore Mac users". They're not innovative, they're not well-designed machines, and they've got aesthetics that would make an Apple fan cringe. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry, I forgot that "hardcore Mac users" only choose to use Macs because they look nice <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" /> Personally, I would choose a solidly built machine that I can depend on over a slick-looking piece of crap anyday. I guess I'm just not hardcore enough for you. Whatever.

A real hardcore Mac user cares about such things as efficiency, dependability, and ease-of-use. For this, there is no choice other than a Thinkpad in the PC world.

PeteWK · Jun 5, 2002, 03:48 AM

I bought my boss a VIAO that he likes very much. But then you have to consider that he upgraded from a PI-120 Toshiba that was a boat anchor. If I'd have had all the budget in the world to work with, I would have gotten him an IBM. I lived in the PC world for many years and wouldn't have anything else back in those days.

PeteWK

seanyepez · Jun 5, 2002, 10:47 AM

Ease-of-use? Efficacy? An IBM? Hardly.

Sony's and Dell's are extremely reliable.

Two of my IBM notebooks have broken within three months of their purchase. My VAIO's been going strong for over a year. My Dell notebooks have lasted two years and are still going strong. My Toshiba notebooks still hold a charge and work perfectly after three or four years.

jwtseng · Jun 5, 2002, 01:37 PM

Wow you guys are all great! I didn't expect such a response in such little time. Thanks.

The take home message that is starting to become apparent to me is that there is so much variability in the PC market. One person thinks Compaq is great, the other thinks it's crap. And this seems to hold brand to brand.

From my own limited research, I have noticed that as soon as I find something that I might be interested in, I discover other corners that have been cut that make the model less desireable. I guess most consumers would call this variety "choice", but I consider it to be most maddening. What I want is something powerful (P4? Or is it P3?) in a pleasing package. Networkability is key (10/100BT, 802.11b built-in?). I would love to have FireWire. Ample RAM capable, 20-40gb HD, nice display. All this in one subportable would be great (yeah, right).

Is there a source of laptop reviews somewhere? I have seen PC Magazine's results, but with so many laptops coming out every month it seems like every review comes out sounding glowing as the greatest thing.

Matsu · Jun 5, 2002, 02:02 PM

You have a Ti800, yes? I would stil look at using VirtualPC on the road and buying a really cheap budget desktop for home use, that is if you want to work in the mac environment as much as possible and only use the PC for a few things. Why spend another 2-3 thousand when you can spend 3-4 hundred?

drmbb2 · Jun 5, 2002, 03:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Daniel_R:
drmbb2, I hope no offence was taken.

<hr /></blockquote>Oh, absolutely none taken - sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was picking a fight. I was just pointing out that people unfamiliar with the WinPC market may feel that they need to pay premium price for a major name brand laptop in order to get something good. All I was trying to say was to note that many premium brands are virtually exactly the same machine as much less pricey (and usually less well known) small companies. TwinHead at one time made IBM thinkpads, but has also always marketed their own machines through their California offices (only available directly from TwinHead, so not well known) and their own name-branded machines are very well built and offer very high performance systems. Similarly ChemBook and Sager are often made by the same companies that make Dell machines, using the same components - and both have been in business in the USA for over a decade with very good reputations. But again, they are not very well known at large since they aren't available at your local office super store or Circuit City, but they can be a very good buy.

Just saying (as you did) that one does need to shop around, definetely check out what's "under the hood", and the reputation of the company (eg. service and warrenty) - but don't count out some of the lesser known names just because of their relative obscurity. I owned a TwinHead 486Sx back in 1991 (when such a machine defined the term "desktop replacement" in a laptop) and it was one of the best machines I've ever owned - a very slick performer (for the time, of course) and absolutely bullet proof build quality (I put Tiny Linux on it, and, it's still being used, I believe, for some basic terminal based coding practice by a poor high school student).

Cheers, Michael

rampant · Jun 5, 2002, 08:36 PM

Cnet hardware: notebooks

Always check the user opinions.

Nebrie · Jun 5, 2002, 09:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brit Ben:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jwtseng:


Can someone point me in the right direction to wade through the myriad of PC choices? I want the best.<hr /></blockquote>So, I just did this about a week ago after much deliberation. I'll incurr some wrath by saying straight out:

DONT BUY A VAIO.

The construction quality is frankly crap. They look good, but thats about it. XP has serious issues on the Vaio range, as per recent press coverage.
<hr /></blockquote>As a previous VAIO owner I second that. If you actually plan on taking vaios anywhere at all, watch out; you seriously need an extended warranty.

OzTiBook · Jun 5, 2002, 11:55 PM

In my experiance Toshiba's satellite range are very good systems. Nice displays, excellent quality and build, good value and most of them are pretty slim and sleek looking. But whatever you do, dont get any laptop with a pencil eraser instead of a trackpad. I dont know how ANYBODY manages to get anything productive done using one of those things. IBM and Toshiba seem to like using them in their notebooks.

I have heard only bad things about sony's VAIOs (mostly regarding the build quality). Same goes for HP/Compaq.

good luck

seanyepez · Jun 6, 2002, 01:19 AM

Toshiba notebooks have been very reliable for me in the past. I like them. I've had a few Tecra 8000's and a Portege 7200. Both have been excellent companions.

rampant · Jun 6, 2002, 10:31 AM

Toshibas are really expensive for what you get, and stay away if you want to game. The GF2Go's and GF4Go's they use suck up power like a mother. The only ones they have with good battery life that you can take around are the ones with integrated graphics, which means that the GUI will be a bit slow and 3d gaming out of the question. If you want 3d games AND battery life, get something with a mobile radeon 7500 or a radeon mobility, e.g. not from toshiba. (unless you can find one with either from them- I couldn't)

Also remember: P3-M 1.13 Ghz = P4-M 1.7 Ghz

so go with a high end P3-M.

Mac Zealot · Jun 8, 2002, 01:41 AM

I have an 11 year old IBM laptop and a 6 year old toshiba laptop... the deep down stuff:

The IBM held up VERY well I've had it for quite a while and most everything (but the kb) works fine. However the cases are crap and the hinges break really quickly.

The toshiba is much more durable though a bit clunkier, it has more doors and funky things but it has taken many a beating and the hinges are VERY strong. The LCD is decent, it isn't horrible, but the thinkpad is in better shape.

the toshiba does feel more solid, and they always give a great deal for the money, I'd put something there as they are great.

Also go for the P3M, very good processor and much more reliable.

jwtseng · Jun 8, 2002, 11:25 AM

So I should look for P3M rather than the newer P4M??? I have heard reports that the Pentium 4 is slower than the Pentium 3. This is what is so confusing in the PC world....CHOICE! With Macs, newer is better...not really ever a question. And the higher the number the better....G3 vs G4. And of course there is only one product line to pick from.

I am leaning towards the Gateway 200 or Gateway 600XL...built in 802.11b, built-in FireWire, trackpad!, and the 600XL has ATI 7500 radeon, Dolby 5.1 digital out vs the 200 being only 3 pounds or less.

rampant · Jun 8, 2002, 12:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jwtseng:
So I should look for P3M rather than the newer P4M??? I have heard reports that the Pentium 4 is slower than the Pentium 3. This is what is so confusing in the PC world....CHOICE! With Macs, newer is better...not really ever a question. And the higher the number the better....G3 vs G4. And of course there is only one product line to pick from.

I am leaning towards the Gateway 200 or Gateway 600XL...built in 802.11b, built-in FireWire, trackpad!, and the 600XL has ATI 7500 radeon, Dolby 5.1 digital out vs the 200 being only 3 pounds or less.<hr /></blockquote>Stay away from the 200, it's too expensive for what you get, and the graphics are integrated. Go for either the 400 or 600. Both are pretty good. Max out the clockspeed though, because otherwise you're better off going for a 1.2ghz P3M for the best performance.

seanyepez · Jun 8, 2002, 03:55 PM

The P4-M is a faster chip now. The P3-M is just a lot more efficient. The P4-M destroys the P3-M in graphics tests, and most performance notebooks don't come with a P3 option anymore. DDR-SDRAM isn't available on P3-M notebooks, either.

rampant · Jun 8, 2002, 05:13 PM

the 200mhz DDR dram can actually be slower because it's simple 2 piped, like the 400mhz bus.

The P4 1.7 is not as good as the 1.2ghz P3M, because of speed and battery life.

aloner · Jun 8, 2002, 09:44 PM

After using different PC laptops for the last six years:

Go Thinkpad. Great build quality. It�s the only PC laptop that is built to last.
Dell Latitudes are not bad either.

Get away from Dell Inspiron, Acer and Compaqs.

rampant · Jun 9, 2002, 03:57 PM

seanyepez · Jun 9, 2002, 05:20 PM

Inspirons are Latitudes without the Latitude docking compatability.

Newer notebooks don't offer the P3-M with high-end graphics systems. P4-M notebooks, however, usually include GeForce-level 3D.

rampant · Jun 9, 2002, 11:36 PM

CommonSense · Jun 10, 2002, 09:23 PM

If I might chime in here . . . there's another solid reason that you, as a "hardcore Mac user," should stay away from Dell: The dumb-ass CEO. I think we're all familiar with that moron's stupid remarks about Apple, and I don't think any of us need to reward him by giving him another sale.

The fact that there's nothing remarkable about their machines anyway is just gravy.

Secret Vampire · Sep 1, 2002, 12:44 AM

Joining in a bit late...

I have to register my vote for IBM, the ones that I've had experience with were a 486 that I had briefly, and a friends celeron based one.
The 486 was a very solid, though somewhat bricklike machine, which was near useless to me as the battery was incredibly dead, I eventually traded it + some cash with a friend for a Powerbook, he still uses the machine as an internet gateway type thing (Too cheap to buy a serial modem for his PC, but not too cheap to own 2 PCMCIA ones)
The celeron is possibly the tiniest real laptop I've ever seen, he got it used, and it's obviously been somewhat abused, but it's still intact, and still works, it's very square (IBM don't do curves), and black, though being a subnotebook, it isn't clunky, I envied him every time I had to lug my 5300 into uni, I suspect I'll envy him even more now I've got a G3 (My sig should probably say 5 macs now

. GIVE US A SUBNOTEBOOK STEVE!
Trackpoint is an acquired taste, I like it, but it's becoming moot, as some newer thinkpads have pads...

Anyway, of the other PC notebooks I've seen, toshiba seem solid and reliable, if slightly dull, I question the quality of the casing on HP's products, and most no-brand ones, and my digital hinote is ok, except it needs a new screen, and various bits of case, but it was cheap because of these things so I don't care, it's not like you can get DEC notebooks now anyway.

seanyepez · Sep 1, 2002, 02:23 AM

Actually, it really doesn't matter which notebook manufacturer you pick. They'll all act like Windows machines. If you don't have a Mac, there won't be anything Mac-like about your computer.

Sony's are good for mutimedia because of their plethora of interfaces (FireWire, Memory Stick, etcetera). Dell's got some solid deals. Compaq's are lame because they exist.