[voodoo]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

When they were broadcast, an original BSG episode could have 30-60 seconds of preview. Sometimes the extra time was just "gee whiz" effects shots and sometimes it was "tension building" stuff. You're right that the original wasn't as character driven as the current series, but in 1978 the market was for gee whiz and that sort of thing, not intense plots driven by intense characters. Remember, the point of the original BSG was to cash in on the original Star Wars, not to "make art." Still, I went to the trouble to see the pilot in a theater in Toronto because I couldn't wait for it to be on TV in the States...and I thought it was really cool, too.

...? There sure aren't any intense characters in the NEW BSG either..

Nor is it "art".

Even the producers of that tripe don't think they're making art. They know they're in niche-nerd entertainment production. Not art.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by lexapro 

I would like to know if Ellen knew who and what she was before the died and rezzed or other "realized" it after she rezzed.

I thought it was pretty clear that she only realized who she was after she was ressurected.

[synthfiend]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

___

It's spelt Tgh,

(The Cylons took the "I".)

[Visnaut]

Some really great performances by Dean Stockwell and Michael Trucco in this episode. Another gem was Michael Hogan's portrayal of Tigh at feeling his son kick for the first time.

[design219]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

...? There sure aren't any intense characters in the NEW BSG either..

Nor is it "art".

Even the producers of that tripe don't think they're making art. They know they're in niche-nerd entertainment production. Not art.

Why do you watch this show you dislike so much? And why bother to post in a thread of fans?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

...? There sure aren't any intense characters in the NEW BSG either..

Nor is it "art".

Even the producers of that tripe don't think they're making art. They know they're in niche-nerd entertainment production. Not art.

Congratualtions: your incessant whining means you are the first person I have ever put on an ignore list, ever.

[jokell82]

Here's a pretty good timeline if anyone was searching for one:
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_%28RDM%29

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Congratualtions: your incessant whining means you are the first person I have ever put on an ignore list, ever.

You know, you guys are pretty rough on Voodoo, but I have to say that despite his charming demeanor, he's usually not far off the mark.

[hwojtek]

Originally Posted by synthfiend 

It's spelt Tgh,
(The Cylons took the "I".)

Touché.

[eowyn]

Okay, here's another question. Anyone notice how much Admiral Adama has been popping pills lately, drinking more, and grimacing in pain? Usually in private, not in front of any crew or anything. Think there's anything up with that? He does not look healthy to me.... And the Pythian prophecy didn't say anything about it having to be a female leader who died before the people reached their new home....

[jokell82]

Here are some official answers on a lot of stuff:
http://bit.ly/dWAHL

Here's a tidbit that applies to some of our more recent discussions:

Don C: Could you please provide dates for when:
A) the Thirteenth Tribe (of Cylons) left Kobol
B) the Twelve Tribes (of humans) left Kobol
C) Pythia lived and wrote her scrolls.

Jane: The dates and sequence of the events surrounded Pythia and Kobol are going to be explored, I understand, in a comic book being written by Seamus Kevin Fahey [who is a "Battlestar" writer] and David Reed.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Here are some official answers on a lot of stuff:
http://bit.ly/dWAHL

Here's a tidbit that applies to some of our more recent discussions:

Inneresting: says humans evolved on Kobol.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by eowyn 

Okay, here's another question. Anyone notice how much Admiral Adama has been popping pills lately, drinking more, and grimacing in pain? Usually in private, not in front of any crew or anything. Think there's anything up with that? He does not look healthy to me.... And the Pythian prophecy didn't say anything about it having to be a female leader who died before the people reached their new home....

Seems to be there's a parallel being drawn between the Galactica being on her last legs and Adama being sick.

[lexapro]

I don't think Adama is sick. I think he's addicted to pain meds. He's taken up drinking heavily so this makes sense.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

You know, you guys are pretty rough on Voodoo, but I have to say that despite his charming demeanor, he's usually not far off the mark.

Nope, I'm not buying it. He seems to dislike virtually everything about the show; I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the rest of us see a lot of value/greatness in it (to varying degrees, of course). For the purposes of this thread, he's a troll.

[eowyn]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Seems to be there's a parallel being drawn between the Galactica being on her last legs and Adama being sick.

And if an infusion of Cylon technology can maybe save the Galactica....? Hmmm....it worked for Laura Roslin for awhile anyway....

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by lavar78 

Nope, I'm not buying it. He seems to dislike virtually everything about the show; I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the rest of us see a lot of value/greatness in it (to varying degrees, of course). For the purposes of this thread, he's a troll.

Of course he's trolling. He's being intentionally inflammatory to bait fanboys, no doubt about it. But if you look past that, his actual criticisms are valid. Whether or not these valid observations effect your enjoyment of the show determines their relevancy. Some of Voodoo's points I agree with but I don't find compelling reasons to be overly critical, some are things that have almost made me quit watching at various times. Things like continuity, the fact that the writer's admitted they had no ending and had to write something on the fly that fit with what had already aired and close the story is kinda lame. The continuity errors bug me. The acting can be pretty meh at times, with only a few really strong players to keep it together. I think the revelations about Caval are actually pretty weak, confirming the soap opera Voodoo always claimed this show to be. Like I said above, a petulant child turns maniacal because he couldn't have robot eyes. I liked it better when it was simply revenge. They had a plan my arse. John had a plan. To get back at mommy and daddy.

[starman]

His criticisms are crap. Trollbait, nothing more. Want me to start quoting? I will.

[RAILhead]

So say we all! ^^

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by starman 

His criticisms are crap. Trollbait, nothing more. Want me to start quoting? I will.

I'll give you that my criticism can oftentimes be harsh and it could probably be more constructive, but they are genuine and from my experience watching the show through the seasons.

I'm really surprised at how deeply they seem to cut some people, because I realize that you are not the TV series you watch, no more than you are the computer you use or the car you drive.

- it's just a TV show. After all. Thus, not above criticism.

PS: Railhead, lobbing softballs my way is kind of you, but I think I'll pass.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by starman 

His criticisms are crap. Trollbait, nothing more. Want me to start quoting? I will.

No need, I've read them all. As he said himself, they are indeed harsh, but as someone that tends to look at the show a little more critically after realizing the writers had no idea where they were going with this (which is one of the reasons I hate these big over-reaching multiyear story arcs), I do see legitimacy in his criticisms. I guess the difference is that I am still able to get some enjoyment from the show while for Voodoo it's a deal breaker.

I like Stargate, but I could pick it apart all day long. It doesn't keep me from enjoying the show, despite things that I see as shortcomings. If someone else picked it apart in the exact same way I would if I was so inclined, I'd just smile and say "Yeah, but I like it".

[starman]

What I don't understand is why you feel you need to be negative about a show all these years. You're clearly in the minority. Slow night or something, or do you just like being a troll?

[starman]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

No need, I've read them all. As he said himself, they are indeed harsh, but as someone that tends to look at the show a little more critically after realizing the writers had no idea where they were going with this (which is one of the reasons I hate these big over-reaching multiyear story arcs), I do see legitimacy in his criticisms. I guess the difference is that I am still able to get some enjoyment from the show while for Voodoo it's a deal breaker.

I like Stargate, but I could pick it apart all day long. It doesn't keep me from enjoying the show, despite things that I see as shortcomings. If someone else picked it apart in the exact same way I would if I was so inclined, I'd just smile and say "Yeah, but I like it".

Any show can be picked apart, and I think Lost is more worthy of criticism than BG.

[lexapro]

Did ALL the Cavils know the identity of the final 5 or only the one we saw in Fri nights ep?

[Chuckit]

It's not that your criticism is harsh so much as that it seems repetitive and excessive. Unless you declare that you suddenly love the show, people will assume that your previously stated opinion still stands. If you were actually offering thought-provoking insights and in-depth criticisms of the specifics of Galatica, I think people would be more open to that. But that's not what you're doing — you're just reiterating that you don't like the show and think the creators are inept. Like, we get it.

[ThinkInsane]

I've never watched Lost, so I can't comment on it's worthiness for criticism. But you're right, any show can be picked apart. Even the ones we like best. Much like politics, you're never going to change anyone else's opinion, so what's the point of letting it become an issue? I'm sure Voodoo's critiques don't really effect your enjoyment of the show, so even if he's just trying to get a rise out of you, who cares one way or the other. To each their own.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by lexapro 

Did ALL the Cavils know the identity of the final 5 or only the one we saw in Fri nights ep?

He knows all of them as he is the one that put them where they are to begin with.

[lexapro]

So this entire time Cavil knew the identity of the final 5, knew that the chief was a cylon when they were in their "session", the colonel, etc etc

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by lexapro 

So this entire time Cavil knew the identity of the final 5, knew that the chief was a cylon when they were in their "session", the colonel, etc etc

Yes.

[besson3c]

I don't see the problem of "making stuff up as you go along" as being avoidable. I mean, being overmatched by a superior race is not a problem that is sustainable in perpetuity. There needs to be thought put into how the war begins and ends. Either you make the plot and all of the surrounding questions far more simple and requiring fewer episodes to resolve, or you do what they are doing and become really ambitious. I'm glad that they decided to do the latter.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I just noticed that only (and all?) the African American characters from the original series (Boomer and Tigh) turned out to be the cylons of this series. Kind of like, in the 70s Blacks were thought of as "the outsiders" and now it's the robots that are, and the same characters got to carry that role in both. Or maybe it's just racism :/

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't see the problem of "making stuff up as you go along" as being avoidable. I mean, being overmatched by a superior race is not a problem that is sustainable in perpetuity. There needs to be thought put into how the war begins and ends. Either you make the plot and all of the surrounding questions far more simple and requiring fewer episodes to resolve, or you do what they are doing and become really ambitious. I'm glad that they decided to do the latter.

They should have had an end in mind when they started this. What you make up on the fly is how you get there. I know a guy that's a well established author. When he writes a book, he makes a timeline with the start of the book and the end, with a few key plot points marked on the way. Then he writes his from point to point, marking out his timeline as he goes. There is a clear ending in mind from the start. Certainly if you start every episode with "they have a plan" you'd think there would have been, you know, a plan. Or at least a general idea. A notion. I think that's exactly what a show with a multiyear story arc needs to do, because otherwise you get what we are getting; a convenient ending.

"Ooo look, if we make Chief a cylon, and Cavil the megalomaniacal bad guy, we can give a whole new evil look to the Brother Cavil scene". When you have to write back like that, it's going to cause continuity problems. Here's an example: The glowing spines during boom boom. The mini-series was only supposed to be that, if you remember. The show came after. I bet Ron Moore regretted the hell out of that glowing spine scene. Now he had to keep that in mind for the show, and I would have to say it's a rather obvious indicator if your female relations back gets all glowy. I seem to remember that getting talked about in this very thread. Rather more reliable than Baltar's cylon detector anyway. Moore didn't know the series was coming, and because he couldn't look ahead in the story, he got stuck with something stupid. That's annoying to me. This time time they did it on purpose. What they revealed this past episode has got me thinking about a bunch of junk that's not going to be answered,and that's irritating.

And the Cavil thing is such a huge cop out. The more I think about this the more disappointed I am. The grand plan that orchestrated the death of billions wasn't for the glory of the one true God, or because Adama sent a spy ship across the Armistice Line, or the righting of old wrongs. The plan was John is a dick. Great.

[lexapro]

Does anyone else see the humor in the fact that Lt Gaeta (pronounced GAY-tah) was gay?

[starman]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

I've never watched Lost, so I can't comment on it's worthiness for criticism. But you're right, any show can be picked apart. Even the ones we like best. Much like politics, you're never going to change anyone else's opinion, so what's the point of letting it become an issue? I'm sure Voodoo's critiques don't really effect your enjoyment of the show, so even if he's just trying to get a rise out of you, who cares one way or the other. To each their own.

Honestly, because it's trolling, and people have been given infractions for this sort of behavior. Just sayin'.

[starman]

*just read TI's post*

Seriously, this is the kind of crap we had to put up wth Trek for 40 years. Let it go, you'll feel better.

[ThinkInsane]

I was never a trek fan, so I got off easy on that one

[eowyn]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

They should have had an end in mind when they started this. What you make up on the fly is how you get there. I know a guy that's a well established author. When he writes a book, he makes a timeline with the start of the book and the end, with a few key plot points marked on the way. Then he writes his from point to point, marking out his timeline as he goes. There is a clear ending in mind from the start. Certainly if you start every episode with "they have a plan" you'd think there would have been, you know, a plan. Or at least a general idea. A notion. I think that's exactly what a show with a multiyear story arc needs to do, because otherwise you get what we are getting; a convenient ending.

Yeah, but a TV series is not a book. TVland execs could have pulled the plug anytime on this series, for starters, whereas your author friend has the luxury (?) of being able to just write, from beginning to end - before editors rip into his work, anyway. I would bet that the vast majority of TV is "make it up as you go along." Not that I disagree with you about the weaknesses that this approach introduces...(like the glowing spines example). But it's always going to be an inherent weakness in TV.

....Moore didn't know the series was coming, and because he couldn't look ahead in the story, he got stuck with something stupid. That's annoying to me. This time time they did it on purpose. What they revealed this past episode has got me thinking about a bunch of junk that's not going to be answered,and that's irritating.

In an odd sort of way, that's maybe the one way that TV more accurately resembles Real Life (TM) than books do - you often don't get to know all the answers, whereas books usually wrap things up nice and neat and don't leave plot lines dangling out all over the place like BSG doubtlessly will. Which provides us with sequels, and prequels, and spin-offs, oh my.

And the Cavil thing is such a huge cop out. The more I think about this the more disappointed I am. The grand plan that orchestrated the death of billions wasn't for the glory of the one true God, or because Adama sent a spy ship across the Armistice Line, or the righting of old wrongs. The plan was John is a dick. Great.

Well, yeah, it's disappointing, but I wouldn't give up all hope just yet. Cavil is only the latest in a long series of characters to come to the fore - the writers may still have a few surprises that'll redeem this plot twist before it all ends. And if not - meh. The series was great brain candy while it lasted.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

They should have had an end in mind when they started this. What you make up on the fly is how you get there. I know a guy that's a well established author. When he writes a book, he makes a timeline with the start of the book and the end, with a few key plot points marked on the way. Then he writes his from point to point, marking out his timeline as he goes. There is a clear ending in mind from the start. Certainly if you start every episode with "they have a plan" you'd think there would have been, you know, a plan. Or at least a general idea. A notion. I think that's exactly what a show with a multiyear story arc needs to do, because otherwise you get what we are getting; a convenient ending.

"Ooo look, if we make Chief a cylon, and Cavil the megalomaniacal bad guy, we can give a whole new evil look to the Brother Cavil scene". When you have to write back like that, it's going to cause continuity problems. Here's an example: The glowing spines during boom boom. The mini-series was only supposed to be that, if you remember. The show came after. I bet Ron Moore regretted the hell out of that glowing spine scene. Now he had to keep that in mind for the show, and I would have to say it's a rather obvious indicator if your female relations back gets all glowy. I seem to remember that getting talked about in this very thread. Rather more reliable than Baltar's cylon detector anyway. Moore didn't know the series was coming, and because he couldn't look ahead in the story, he got stuck with something stupid. That's annoying to me. This time time they did it on purpose. What they revealed this past episode has got me thinking about a bunch of junk that's not going to be answered,and that's irritating.

And the Cavil thing is such a huge cop out. The more I think about this the more disappointed I am. The grand plan that orchestrated the death of billions wasn't for the glory of the one true God, or because Adama sent a spy ship across the Armistice Line, or the righting of old wrongs. The plan was John is a dick. Great.

Did Moore even know that his show was going to get 4 years of funding? Just wondering...

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

And the Cavil thing is such a huge cop out. The more I think about this the more disappointed I am. The grand plan that orchestrated the death of billions wasn't for the glory of the one true God, or because Adama sent a spy ship across the Armistice Line, or the righting of old wrongs. The plan was John is a dick. Great.

It hasn't actually been explained yet why the Cylons attacked again.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

They should have had an end in mind when they started this. What you make up on the fly is how you get there. I know a guy that's a well established author. When he writes a book, he makes a timeline with the start of the book and the end, with a few key plot points marked on the way. Then he writes his from point to point, marking out his timeline as he goes.

Writing a book != writing a TV series which stretches over five years. You can't compare the two.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Writing a book != writing a TV series which stretches over five years. You can't compare the two.

If you go into it stating that it is going to be a five season story arc, which Moore did, than you have to look at writing that story like writing a book. It is the only way to tell a congruent story over such a long period without having to rush to backfill at the end. And it probably would have provided some direction for a couple of the lamer episodes as well.

Whatever, I really have no desire to argue this. I was venting about my annoyances, and where I think the show did itself a disservice. Agree or not, it makes no difference.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It hasn't actually been explained yet why the Cylons attacked again.

Isn't it obvious? It was Cavil's pure hatred and sense of revenge. He boiled over apparently.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Writing a book != writing a TV series which stretches over five years. You can't compare the two.

Writing a story is writing a story, regardless of the medium it's written for. A story has a beginning, an end and a journey to reach that end. If your story doesn't have an end, then your journey will be wandering all over the place and the eventual "end" will be unsatisfying.

This is why multi-season story arcs are so unsatisfying. They *aren't* multi-season stories; they're just one long series of events with the writers copping out by not doing the hard part: tying it all together. We've seen it several times now in other series, and it seems we're almost just as frustrated every time when TVland comes up with these grand stories that have no end.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

"Ooo look, if we make Chief a cylon, and Cavil the megalomaniacal bad guy, we can give a whole new evil look to the Brother Cavil scene". When you have to write back like that, it's going to cause continuity problems.

What continuity problems? There were clues almost from the first day about the Chief. The whole reason he was in that scene with Cavil in the first place was because of one of those clues. You could argue at the time that the Chief being a cylon would set up some too-cute irony about his affair with Boomer, but that wouldn't have been a retcon, since that's clearly what they intended from the beginning.

I think what you meant to say was "Ooo look, if we make Cavil know everything all along he looks so much more evil." So what? How is that a continuity problem? He was already evil, now he's just even more evil. This bothers you, really?

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

This is why multi-season story arcs are so unsatisfying. They *aren't* multi-season stories; they're just one long series of events with the writers copping out by not doing the hard part: tying it all together.

Did you watch the last episode that aired? They did the hard part, they did tie it all together (almost all, so far). What is your complaint about it exactly?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Writing a story is writing a story, regardless of the medium it's written for. A story has a beginning, an end and a journey to reach that end. If your story doesn't have an end, then your journey will be wandering all over the place and the eventual "end" will be unsatisfying.

Not even close, dude.

Writing a novel is essentially a one-person enterprise. With the exception of certain people an author trusts, and to whom s/he may show drafts, 90% of the work is one person, on his or her own. As the project comes to fruition the book will be handled by an editor. Sometimes the editor has a lot to do, and sometimes the editor doesn't have much to do, that's at the end. It is, like I said, a one-person job. And, assuming the author has a contract with a publisher, the financial side is relatively simple: advances, percentages and any other rights are spelled out in a contract, which isn't subject to change.

Once the book is ready for production, any creative and budgeting process is largely over (this is a simplification, but only a little). There are no network censors to run the book by and a very small number of legal issues to be dealt with. For the most part, what came out of the final draft is what gets put on press. And, for the most part, someone writing a book has pretty much complete control over most of the creative process.

Now, compare this to a TV series. For one, it is not a one-person job. Even with a writing team the actual crafting of the show is much more complex. Writers may have different ideas about where to take the show, and these ideas need to be sorted though, some chosen and some thrown out. And that's the easy part.

You have to worry about budgetary concerns at every step: scenes may have to be cut or modified if they are complex and/or expensive, or you may have to cut one scene to leave another you judge more important in the script. And even this isn't steady state: if the economy tanks and ad revenues go down, you may find the $1,000,000/episode budget you thought you had for next season has been cut to $750,000/episode. Now you have to make more decisions: perhaps the big finale you had planned for the end of next season is now too expensive to be filmed, and now you have to rewrite several episodes to make up for that. And then you find out that, even though the network said they were interested in four seasons, now it sounds as if they only want three, so you'd better wrap everything up now, because you don't know if you will have any more shows.

And it gets worse: you have to run all the scripts by the network legal teams for both normal compliance and network censors, and sometimes it literally is a negotiation. Can we keep the sex scene in the fourth act if we cut this from the second scene? What if we get rid of ten "****s"? Can we keep this?

And it gets even worse: on a show like BG you have a large cast over whom you have only partial control. Some of them will be available all the time. Some of the will have prior commitments. One or two of them will get sick, or have an accident, and not be available when you thought they would be. And all that has to be worked around, at the same time all of the writing, budget, legal, financial and censor stuff is happening. And all of the above is when things are going well. Now, if something really unprecedented happens, like a writer's strike. . .

And in the midst of all this you have to try and keep a complicated, ensemble story together and making some sense. It's actually worse with something like BG, because sci-fi is considered second rate in the U.S. Something like HBO's The Wire gets a lot more money, a lot more protection and has a lot more power behind it. But something like BG, which runs on a second-tier, cable only network, with limited syndication possibilities and a potentially limited audience, is a much sketchier proposition. I'm impresses they've been able to keep it going this long with only one stretch of mediocre shows.

They *aren't* multi-season stories; they're just one long series of events with the writers copping out by not doing the hard part: tying it all together.

Dude, you really don't know what you're talking about. Writing for film, TV or theater is not like any normal job, anywhere. It has more to do with juggling chainsaws than it does with anything 9 to 5.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

Isn't it obvious? It was Cavil's pure hatred and sense of revenge. He boiled over apparently.

Huh? I don't think that's been hinted at at all.

The other models had to be involved in it anyway because they were involved in the logistics.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

It is interesting going back and watching the first episode with Cavil when he is trying to convince the chief that he is not a cylon

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Dude, you really don't know what you're talking about. Writing for film, TV or theater is not like any normal job, anywhere. It has more to do with juggling chainsaws than it does with anything 9 to 5.

The logistics of creating a TV show don't really matter to me. The expectations I have for a story (engaging introduction, satisfying ending, and suspenseful build to the ending) don't change from medium to medium. A story is a story, regardless of the medium.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The other models had to be involved in it anyway because they were involved in the logistics.

Involved, yes, but it's pretty clear that he's been manipulating them. Even back when they boxed Diana, it was apparent the he knew more about the Final Five than the other models knew.

[Chuckit]

The choice to treat the entire series as equivalent to a book is quite arbitrary. A better analogue would be that each episode is a book — those have well-defined beginnings, middles and ends that are entirely planned out in advance. The series is like a series of books. Do you think Robert Ludlum knew how The Bourne Ultimatum was going to end when he started writing The Bourne Identity? (And even that isn't really a good analogy, because most authors don't have a network demanding that the next installment prominently feature Hilary Duff as the main character's bratty cousin.)