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Religious people are less intelligent than atheists (Page 2)
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ironknee
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Aug 23, 2013, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'd entertain this little intellectual exercise if I thought that your reason for "believing" in climate change had anything to do with the science itself and wasn't simply to stick-it to your caricature of religious people. After all, you've been decidedly absent in any of the more exhaustive discussions on this topic.

Otherwise, I'll let you, as the most vocal atheist on this board; demonstrate exactly how intellectually superior you are.
Ah! ebuddy.

Tell me why you don't think climate change is real. And I KNOW you don't.

I will defer to real scientists.
     
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Aug 23, 2013, 02:24 PM
 
     
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Aug 23, 2013, 02:58 PM
 
     
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Aug 23, 2013, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
     
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Aug 28, 2013, 09:39 AM
 
     
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Aug 28, 2013, 10:03 AM
 
Interesting backpedaling from the daughter minister there.

also:

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shifuimam
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Aug 31, 2013, 11:16 AM
 
Religion and intelligence coexist plenty. I know quite a few devout Christians who are very intelligent individuals. My departure from the world of protestant Christianity didn't suddenly make me think that my smart, Christian friends are stupid for believing in God or the Bible or anything else. I think that they're missing out on opportunities in life because of their desire to stay in the Christian bubble, but I don't think they're intellectually inferior to me.

A lot of Christians who are plenty smart simply prefer to live out their lives inside the comfort and familiarity of the Christian bubble - they maintain friendships with Christians, they go to church, they send their children to Christian schools, and they generally don't associate themselves with non-Christians outside of work. Their religious belief is part of every aspect of their lives. I don't think that inherently makes them stupid.

My brother is militantly religious. He's also an engineer with a Ph.D. in a particularly specialized field of physics. He's no slouch, intellectually-speaking. It doesn't make him any less of a dick, but he's definitely on the upper end of the intellectual spectrum. On the other hand, I have Christian friends back in Indiana who are devout in their beliefs but are still able to be open-minded, maintain friendships with people who aren't Christians, and generally live in normal society pretty happily.
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besson3c
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Aug 31, 2013, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Religion and intelligence coexist plenty. I know quite a few devout Christians who are very intelligent individuals. My departure from the world of protestant Christianity didn't suddenly make me think that my smart, Christian friends are stupid for believing in God or the Bible or anything else. I think that they're missing out on opportunities in life because of their desire to stay in the Christian bubble, but I don't think they're intellectually inferior to me.

A lot of Christians who are plenty smart simply prefer to live out their lives inside the comfort and familiarity of the Christian bubble - they maintain friendships with Christians, they go to church, they send their children to Christian schools, and they generally don't associate themselves with non-Christians outside of work. Their religious belief is part of every aspect of their lives. I don't think that inherently makes them stupid.

My brother is militantly religious. He's also an engineer with a Ph.D. in a particularly specialized field of physics. He's no slouch, intellectually-speaking. It doesn't make him any less of a dick, but he's definitely on the upper end of the intellectual spectrum. On the other hand, I have Christian friends back in Indiana who are devout in their beliefs but are still able to be open-minded, maintain friendships with people who aren't Christians, and generally live in normal society pretty happily.


I agree with all of this, religious devotion comes in all shapes and sizes and belongs to intellects of all sorts of different capacities, but if there was a gun to my head and had to come up with some sort of generalization, I'd have to say that on average the ultra religious are less intelligent. This is only because anybody that is ultra anything, whether this is religion, being a Mac/PC fanatic, left/right wing, whatever, is generally closed to confronting the notion that their personal worlds may be constructed in a flimsy manner.

This is just human nature though, and non of this is terribly specific to religion, although certainly religion often brings about these unwavering, unquestioning sorts of viewpoints on a relatively frequent basis, and probably more so than Mac/PC fanaticism or car loyalty
     
shifuimam
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Aug 31, 2013, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This is only because anybody that is ultra anything, whether this is religion, being a Mac/PC fanatic, left/right wing, whatever, is generally closed to confronting the notion that their personal worlds may be constructed in a flimsy manner.
It also depends on how you gauge intelligence.

My brother is academically very intelligent. He has, however, no common sense and no social savvy whatsoever. He's also the textbook definition of a homophobic, racist, misogynistic fundamentalist (and I mean "homophobic" in the literal sense - he's genuinely terrified of gay men in case he catches The Gay from one).

I can definitely attest that in all manners of fanaticism (*cough*), a person's supposed high level of intelligence becomes far less plausible the more vehemently they defend whatever it is they're fanatical about.
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besson3c
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Aug 31, 2013, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
It also depends on how you gauge intelligence.

My brother is academically very intelligent. He has, however, no common sense and no social savvy whatsoever. He's also the textbook definition of a homophobic, racist, misogynistic fundamentalist (and I mean "homophobic" in the literal sense - he's genuinely terrified of gay men in case he catches The Gay from one).

I can definitely attest that in all manners of fanaticism (*cough*), a person's supposed high level of intelligence becomes far less plausible the more vehemently they defend whatever it is they're fanatical about.

To me it seems like a part of this is a matter of self-esteem too. To me a person with a high self-esteem is not at all afraid of being wrong or being exposed as being wrong. In fact, they sometimes even welcome being shown they are wrong because their sense of self-worth is not tethered to their being right.

Is it possible that your brother is smart, but has emotional/self-esteem issues that prevent him from realizing his full intellectual capacity? I obviously know nothing about your brother, so if my theories here are offensive just tell me and I'll STFU, I'm not at all trying to be fanatical about them, although that would be pretty ironic
     
shifuimam
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Aug 31, 2013, 05:23 PM
 
Hehehe no, it's quite the opposite. He's incomprehensibly arrogant and thus believes that his own personal views are the only right views any human could possibly have.

He's totally That Guy who starts every sentence with "ACTUALLY...."

On the other hand, he's become much more concerned that people who know him outside the Internet will realize how extreme his religious and moral views have become, and he's gone into hiding. So you may be on to something there.

My brother notwithstanding I definitely agree that one's self-esteem and self-confidence play a huge role in their ability to accept the possibility of other beliefs being plausible or valid.
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Laminar
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Aug 31, 2013, 06:20 PM
 
You two having fun here?
     
shifuimam
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Aug 31, 2013, 06:38 PM
 
Quite. I enjoy intelligent discourse about religion. I find it fascinating.
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besson3c
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Aug 31, 2013, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Hehehe no, it's quite the opposite. He's incomprehensibly arrogant and thus believes that his own personal views are the only right views any human could possibly have.

He's totally That Guy who starts every sentence with "ACTUALLY...."

On the other hand, he's become much more concerned that people who know him outside the Internet will realize how extreme his religious and moral views have become, and he's gone into hiding. So you may be on to something there.

My brother notwithstanding I definitely agree that one's self-esteem and self-confidence play a huge role in their ability to accept the possibility of other beliefs being plausible or valid.
I don't know about your brother, but I've found that sometimes know-it-all arrogant types are incredibly insecure. An ex MacNN member comes to mind.
     
Laminar
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Aug 31, 2013, 09:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't know about your brother, but I've found that sometimes know-it-all arrogant types are incredibly insecure. An ex MacNN member comes to mind.
How do you measure insecurity? Is it not simply a matter of your perception?
     
besson3c
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Aug 31, 2013, 09:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
How do you measure insecurity? Is it not simply a matter of your perception?
How could it not be?
     
Laminar
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Aug 31, 2013, 09:49 PM
 
Because your (and I mean this in the general since, not necessarily specifically you, besson) perception is flawed. It's colored by your worldview and your biases. What you may perceive as insecurity may not be that at all.
     
besson3c
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Aug 31, 2013, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Because your (and I mean this in the general since, not necessarily specifically you, besson) perception is flawed. It's colored by your worldview and your biases. What you may perceive as insecurity may not be that at all.
Not even professional shrinks have anything beyond their perception to go by. I'm not claiming that my perception is accurate, but Shif's perception of her brother as being arrogant might be colored by her worldview and bias. Our take on *everybody* is colored this way.
     
Laminar
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Aug 31, 2013, 11:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not even professional shrinks have anything beyond their perception to go by. I'm not claiming that my perception is accurate, but Shif's perception of her brother as being arrogant might be colored by her worldview and bias. Our take on *everybody* is colored this way.
So you see the futility in discussing it?
     
shifuimam
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Aug 31, 2013, 11:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't know about your brother, but I've found that sometimes know-it-all arrogant types are incredibly insecure. An ex MacNN member comes to mind.
Pretty sure I know who you're talking about on that one.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not even professional shrinks have anything beyond their perception to go by. I'm not claiming that my perception is accurate, but Shif's perception of her brother as being arrogant might be colored by her worldview and bias. Our take on *everybody* is colored this way.
Your logic and common sense has no place here.

But in all seriousness, I can say pretty confidently that in the specific case of my brother, his arrogance is a front for his insecurity, particularly because he's made it clear that he refuses to (a) allow anyone to challenge his beliefs (he only allows commentary and feedback from the choir he preaches to) and (b) stand behind his beliefs - he cowers behind the anonymity of the Internet and goes into hiding as soon as real people (family, friends, and/or employers) discover his dark side.

I do want to clarify that his beliefs are on the extreme end of Christian fundamentalism. He's not your average "I don't approve of the repeal of DOMA and I'm going to bitch about it online" Republican slacktivist type. He's way, way, way into the manosphere subculture and genuinely believes that women were genetically created to be subjugated by men from birth until death. I shit you not.

Anyhow.

There is a definite difference between "being secure in what dogma you believe" and "being an arrogant know-it-all about your religion". The former is someone who has chosen their beliefs, is comfortable with them, and will entertain conversation about those beliefs to an extent (e.g. "you're not going to change my mind, but I'll listen to you out of respect"). The latter is someone who will get violently angry with you if you try to logically challenge their beliefs (e.g. "SHUT THE F*CK UP YOU IDIOT YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE MY INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE SAYS SO AND THERE ISN'T A GODDAMN THING YOU CAN DO TO CHANGE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HELL I HATE YOU").

Arrogance about anything - religion, politics, the size of Steve Jobs' wang - tends to betray one's lack of confidence in what they claim to believe so vehemently. Some of the best Christian theologians and apologists out there are very humble people.
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Laminar
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Aug 31, 2013, 11:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Arrogance about anything - religion, politics, the size of Steve Jobs' wang - tends to betray one's lack of confidence in what they claim to believe so vehemently.
Can this be backed up with anything other than anecdotes?
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 03:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
So you see the futility in discussing it?

Do you see the futility in confronting me about this, when it seems like your whole premise behind your aggression towards me lately is based on your perceptions of what I'm about?

It's the internet, everybody forms their own little perceptions of the personas of the people in their little social circles. The trick is to not take them too seriously.
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 03:44 AM
 
So rather than continue this line of discussion, you assume the motivations behind my posts and respond to those?
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 03:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
So rather than continue this line of discussion, you assume the motivations behind my posts and respond to those?

If you have a point to make, make it, otherwise my interest is waning rapidly here.
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 04:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If you have a point to make, make it, otherwise my interest is waning rapidly here.
Do you feel comfortable speculating on the motivations of people against whom you're already biased?
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
... but if there was a gun to my head and had to come up with some sort of generalization, I'd have to say that on average the <demographic> are <something negative>
I find this form of reasoning repulsive, and you should too. It may be human nature to pigeonhole "the other", and it may be human nature to do this in an almost exclusively negative context. But that is a bad part of human nature, and we should be doing everything we can to stifle it. I don't blame someone for having this thought once in a while, but I do blame someone for not trying to squash it the same way we squash other unacceptable "human nature" impulses, like masturbating in public or stabbing people in traffic.
     
shifuimam
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Sep 1, 2013, 11:25 AM
 
This discussion was actually interesting until Laminar showed up.

You've been bitter and angry ever since you got married. You're a Christian, aren't you? Why don't you start setting a Christlike example instead of going through this website and angrily attempting to instigate conflict with people you don't like?

This thread isn't about a psychological study with medical journals to back up one's opinions.
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shifuimam
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Sep 1, 2013, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I find this form of reasoning repulsive, and you should too. It may be human nature to pigeonhole "the other", and it may be human nature to do this in an almost exclusively negative context. But that is a bad part of human nature, and we should be doing everything we can to stifle it. I don't blame someone for having this thought once in a while, but I do blame someone for not trying to squash it the same way we squash other unacceptable "human nature" impulses, like masturbating in public or stabbing people in traffic.
We do have to be careful about generalizing. I don't think that fanatics of any flavor are necessarily less intelligent or even just tend to be less intelligent. I think that intelligent people who are deeply involved in some kind of fanaticism (not just religious) end up pushing intellect to the side in favor of the group mentality.

I got this book from our library's book sale about new earth Creationism. It's written by a guy with a doctorate in geological engineering, so one can safely assume he's no intellectual peon. However, his entire book is about pushing science and reason out the window in favor of using the Bible to explain away what science shows us about the age of the earth and the universe. He's a smart guy, but the group mentality supersedes his intellect.
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Sep 1, 2013, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
We do have to be careful about generalizing. I don't think that fanatics of any flavor are necessarily less intelligent or even just tend to be less intelligent. I think that intelligent people who are deeply involved in some kind of fanaticism (not just religious) end up pushing intellect to the side in favor of the group mentality.
I don't think that generalizing helps us identify those that do. On the contrary, I think it actively interferes with our ability to perceive objective truth. It introduces more noise than signal. And in the process it is obviously harmful to the group that we are generalizing about.


I got this book from our library's book sale about new earth Creationism. It's written by a guy with a doctorate in geological engineering, so one can safely assume he's no intellectual peon. However, his entire book is about pushing science and reason out the window in favor of using the Bible to explain away what science shows us about the age of the earth and the universe. He's a smart guy, but the group mentality supersedes his intellect.
I'm trying to understand the intent of your anecdote. What exactly is the generalizing we can do based on this, and how does that generalization help us? IMO, the alternative to generalizing is making a tautology (eg "people who believe a stupid thing are stupid" or "people who believe young-earth-ism are exactly as stupid as young-earth-ism is."). Under what circumstances do we gain new knowledge from a generalization than we would have gained from the corresponding tautology?
     
shifuimam
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Sep 1, 2013, 06:07 PM
 
What I was getting more is that someone who's generally considered intelligent can put what others might see as scientific reasoning aside in favor of religious dogma.

I'm not going to deny I'm biased here. I was raised conservative Christian and have since defected, which has certainly impacted my worldview in a different way than someone raised non-religious or someone who has maintained their religious beliefs into adulthood.
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Sep 1, 2013, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
What I was getting more is that someone who's generally considered intelligent can put what others might see as scientific reasoning aside in favor of religious dogma.
Isn't that all the more reason why generalization is a useless exercise? Not only can we learn nothing about other people, we can't even generalize his own intelligence within the confines of him.



I'm not going to deny I'm biased here. I was raised conservative Christian and have since defected, which has certainly impacted my worldview in a different way than someone raised non-religious or someone who has maintained their religious beliefs into adulthood.
It's good when we can identify our own biases, far better than to walk around thinking we have none. It gives us an easy way to control for it, role reversal. Put the shoe on the other foot by pretending that christians are considered by all to be the smart ones (like in the middle ages when only clerics were educated). If you want, of course.

I can't think of a single case when stereotyping generalizing is a net benefit, IOW adding more signal than it adds noise. Because the only time it adds more signal than noise is when we can independently quantify that the group being generalized to fits the label. And in that case it's not a generalization, it's a direct measurement.
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 08:13 PM
 
I'll agree with you there.

Generalizing an entire religious population as intellectually inferior is very misguided.

I can't even judge all the religious people I know as intellectually inferior.
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Sep 1, 2013, 10:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
This discussion was actually interesting until Laminar showed up.
Sorry for ruining your, "Yes! My anecdotes back up the study that I want to believe in the first place!"

You've been bitter and angry ever since you got married.
I welcome you to point out the turning point in my posting history. I've been here for 12 years, surely there must be concrete evidence.

You're a Christian, aren't you?
Am I?

Why don't you start setting a Christlike example instead of going through this website and angrily attempting to instigate conflict with people you don't like?


This thread isn't about a psychological study with medical journals to back up one's opinions.
No, this thread is about confirmation bias, in a roundabout way.
     
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Sep 1, 2013, 11:21 PM
 
Translation:

Pay attention to me! Pay attention to me! Fap me because I NEED THE ATTENTION RIGHT NOW! Everyone look at meeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Laminar
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Sep 2, 2013, 12:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Translation:

Pay attention to me! Pay attention to me! Fap me because I NEED THE ATTENTION RIGHT NOW! Everyone look at meeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Clearly you have an issue with me. I wish you'd try and settle it via PMs if it really is a big deal. Otherwise, please refrain from ruining threads by postulating about my intentions, my motivations, and my marriage. I am not trying to pick a fight with you (or anyone else) and simply disagree with everything you say, I'm sorry if that's how I have come across. I really am interested in a discussion, and that can't happen if you keep addressing the motivations you believe are behind my posts instead of the actual content of my posts.

What was it you were just saying about the connection between insecurity and adverse reactions to having heavily ingrained views questioned?
     
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Sep 2, 2013, 12:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Clearly you have an issue with me. I wish you'd try and settle it via PMs if it really is a big deal. Otherwise, please refrain from ruining threads by postulating about my intentions, my motivations, and my marriage. I am not trying to pick a fight with you (or anyone else) and simply disagree with everything you say, I'm sorry if that's how I have come across. I really am interested in a discussion, and that can't happen if you keep addressing the motivations you believe are behind my posts instead of the actual content of my posts.

What was it you were just saying about the connection between insecurity and adverse reactions to having heavily ingrained views questioned?

If this is so, I think Shif is picking up a lot of hostility from what you have written, as have I, as has subego in another thread. Maybe this is something to consider in your writing? At times it's not just a little hostility either, it's Rob-esque hostility.
     
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Sep 2, 2013, 08:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What was it you were just saying about the connection between insecurity and adverse reactions to having heavily ingrained views questioned?
That has been the aspect of these threads that proves most bothersome. Almost invariably, the generalization; "Religious people are less intelligent" is either lodged by or ardently defended by those who struggle to demonstrate this prowess in any meaningful, practical way. When the metrics are broken down and the generalization is challenged, the discussion devolves into "yeah, but...mmmgrrr... YOU'RE A POOPY-BUTT STINK FACE!"

It should be noted that Christians for example, are no different than other people in their flaws. When an atheist tells you to act more Christ-like or that you're somehow not meeting the standards of a dogma they've decidedly abandoned, it is their elevation of you to a pedestal of sorts that makes you deserving of the tearing-down. Nothing else. Their world views have not been developed through the sciences nor bolstered by intellect or earnest introspect, but are birthed from little more than simpleton antagonism and bitterness. If we were to gauge the merit of a philosophy, worldview, or discipline strictly by the quality of its human representation -- there would be little merit to be found in any of them.
ebuddy
     
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Sep 2, 2013, 11:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
That has been the aspect of these threads that proves most bothersome. Almost invariably, the generalization; "Religious people are less intelligent" is either lodged by or ardently defended by those who struggle to demonstrate this prowess in any meaningful, practical way. When the metrics are broken down and the generalization is challenged, the discussion devolves into "yeah, but...mmmgrrr... YOU'RE A POOPY-BUTT STINK FACE!"
Do take note that I have openly admitted that (a) I am biased and that (b) I don't generalize all religious people as "less intelligent". There's more than one viewpoint being discussed here.

My issue with this thread is that certain participants aren't interested in actually stating their own views and backing them up; they're only interested in trying to start shit. Instead of yelling "PROVE IT!" to the opposing side, take the time to prove your OWN side first.

When an atheist
I'm decidedly not an atheist, but thanks for the generalized assumption.

tells you to act more Christ-like or that you're somehow not meeting the standards of a dogma they've decidedly abandoned,
If you'd like, I can go through my IM logs of years gone by in which Laminar talks to me about being a Christian and running a non-denominational youth group to try and reach out to kids with his religious beliefs.

... Their world views have not been developed through the sciences nor bolstered by intellect or earnest introspect, but are birthed from little more than simpleton antagonism and bitterness
False, false, false, false. My views have been developed through years of serious introspect and observation. Bitterness has nothing to do with it.

But, you know, if you want to make assumptions about me based on a few choice soundbites, go for it.
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ebuddy
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Sep 2, 2013, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Do take note that I have openly admitted that (a) I am biased and that (b) I don't generalize all religious people as "less intelligent". There's more than one viewpoint being discussed here.
My point to Laminar was quite general in response to his apparent frustration with the line of reasoning being used to argue him.

My issue with this thread is that certain participants aren't interested in actually stating their own views and backing them up; they're only interested in trying to start shit. Instead of yelling "PROVE IT!" to the opposing side, take the time to prove your OWN side first.
Why would those of religious persuasion be obligated to, yet again, defend themselves against the insult of lacking intellect by virtue of their world view? I think the burden of proof is upon those who repeatedly use dubious studies to back this claim. When the metrics of the study are challenged, they often do not hold up which leads to accusations of marital unhappiness or enter personal attack here. If my post was essentially a mirror, I apologize for any image you might have found distasteful.

I'm decidedly not an atheist, but thanks for the generalized assumption.
What I was getting more is that someone who's generally considered intelligent can put what others might see as scientific reasoning aside in favor of religious dogma.
Why would a religious person have to put aside scientific reasoning? It birthed the discipline and facilitated most of what we know of the natural world today. In fact, they've enjoyed quite a fruitful relationship. This is typically the reasoning of an atheist in an attempt to pit the two disciplines against one another, but since you've called me out on this unfairness; what is it in you that allows room for scientific reasoning while maintaining faith in a deity that is not also in the others for which you're obligated to generalize?

False, false, false, false. My views have been developed through years of serious introspect and observation. Bitterness has nothing to do with it.
But, you know, if you want to make assumptions about me based on a few choice soundbites, go for it.
When one quotes from the Atheist Manifestoâ„¢, it comes off as atheist. I apologize if I've assumed too much and while it's none of my business, I am curious; what's your faith?
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shifuimam
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Sep 2, 2013, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why would those of religious persuasion be obligated to, yet again, defend themselves against the insult of lacking intellect by virtue of their world view? I think the burden of proof is upon those who repeatedly use dubious studies to back this claim. When the metrics of the study are challenged, they often do not hold up which leads to accusations of marital unhappiness or enter personal attack here. If my post was essentially a mirror, I apologize for any image you might have found distasteful.
I'm sorry - I'm not necessarily in support of the study linked in the OP. I'm just trying to participate in the conversation.

Laminar in particular has seemed significantly more negative, snarky, trollish, and angry since he got married. Maybe it's a coincidence, but I noticed a particular increase in negative behavior from him following his marriage.

It does no good to join a conversation about a topic like this just to scream PROVE IT! PROVE IT! at the people who disagree with you. It contributes nothing, it does nothing to support your side of the (not-just-two-sided) debate, and it makes you look like kind of a douche (to some people).

Moreover, it seems that the desire is to reduce all examples to "anecdotal evidence". Since every single person on this planet bases their views of philosophy, religion, and humanities on what they observe from their own experiences and worldview, it's impossible for this discussion to NOT involve "anecdotal evidence". If what you're looking for is years-long research using the scientific method to explain one's philosophical beliefs and perspectives on life, you're looking in the wrong place.

The original topic is "are religious people less intelligent', is it not? If you're trying to say that no, religious people aren't less intelligent, trying to instigate shit and refusing to actually contribute anything of substance to the conversation goes a long way toward making you look unintelligent. Just sayin'.

Why would a religious person have to put aside scientific reasoning? It birthed the discipline and facilitated most of what we know of the natural world today. In fact, they've enjoyed quite a fruitful relationship. This is typically the reasoning of an atheist in an attempt to pit the two disciplines against one another, but since you've called me out on this unfairness; what is it in you that allows room for scientific reasoning while maintaining faith in a deity that is not also in the others for which you're obligated to generalize?
Like I said, "what others might view as scientific reasoning". Science and religion are by no means mutually exclusive. I know some pretty brilliant doctors and scientists who are also devout Christians.

On the other hand, I know intellectually brilliant people who are incapable of having a logical discussion about their faith - they're more than happy to talk about whatever branch of science or math they study, but as soon as you try to discuss anything religious, it devolves into anger and name-calling.

Quite frankly, what I've seen in this thread from the religious side has been more on the angry name-calling side of things, rather than actually participating in the discussion.

Our freshman Biology book was a Bob Jones University publication. It promoted only New Earth Creationism and went so far as to say that any Christian who believed in Old Earth Creationism was heretical and sinful, and that the things that scientists use to show how old the earth is were put on the planet by God to essentially mislead us.

Sorry, but to me, that's throwing science out the window in favor of religious dogma. I am not saying that all Christians are like this - but quite a few are.

When one quotes from the Atheist Manifestoâ„¢, it comes off as atheist. I apologize if I've assumed too much and while it's none of my business, I am curious; what's your faith?
I wasn't aware that I was quoting the Atheist Manifesto. Since I'm (a) not an atheist and (b) can't stand Richard Dawkins and his ilk, I know nothing about that particular book/document/whitepaper.

As far as my faith is concerned, I was raised in a very conservative protestant Christian home, going to a non-denominational protestant Christian school K-12 and going to church twice a week until I was 17. The older I got, the more I started researching other faiths out of a general interest in the subject. I realized that there are multiple religions that try to claim to be the One True Source Of Absolute Truth, and insisting that one is better than the other just didn't really settle with me.

I'm not a Christian. I don't claim to be one. I know more than a lot of people about the faith - I studied apologetics in high school pretty voraciously. I believe in intelligent design and that there's a higher power out there, but I don't believe that Christians are magically the only ones who know anything about that higher power, and I don't believe that anyone who tries to know more about such a higher power and isn't a Christian is automatically wrong, heretical, sinful, or evil.

I believe that humans are inherently bad - I think that all of documented human history is a pretty clear indicator that, if given the choice, humans are more likely to indulge their self-serving side than altruism, and it takes conscious effort to put others before oneself.

I hope that clears things up for you on that front. I'm not a bitter ex-Christian. I do believe that some of my more religious friends back home are missing out on things in life by cloistering themselves inside the comfort of the Christian bubble, but that's their choice, and as long as they're not hurting others with their choices, I can't really fault them for it.

I also know "Christians" who use their faith to abuse and control those around them. Those are the ones I have a serious problem with.

Also: for what it's worth, I appreciate your contributions to discussions like these. From what I've seen over the years, I'm pretty sure you're religious to some extent, but you are able to talk about it without trying to instigate conflict. So, yeah.
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Sep 2, 2013, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why would a religious person have to put aside scientific reasoning? It birthed the discipline and facilitated most of what we know of the natural world today. In fact, they've enjoyed quite a fruitful relationship. This is typically the reasoning of an atheist in an attempt to pit the two disciplines against one another, but since you've called me out on this unfairness; what is it in you that allows room for scientific reasoning while maintaining faith in a deity that is not also in the others for which you're obligated to generalize?
Yeah, that's absurd. I'm a card-carrying evolutionist and God-worshipping mystic. It's simple ignorance to believe that all people fit in the same convenient little boxes.
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Sep 2, 2013, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yeah, that's absurd. I'm a card-carrying evolutionist and God-worshipping mystic. It's simple ignorance to believe that all people fit in the same convenient little boxes.
Which is very easy to do when we hear much more from the far right Christian types that denounce science and do things like put together creationist museums. Not right to do, but easy. You guys should be more loud
     
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Sep 2, 2013, 02:51 PM
 
There's also those of us who don't believe in Christian creationism but also don't believe in evolution.

Nothing is black-and-white.
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Shaddim
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Sep 2, 2013, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Which is very easy to do when we hear much more from the far right Christian types that denounce science and do things like put together creationist museums. Not right to do, but easy. You guys should be more loud
Generalizations based on the lowest common denominator, anyone? We need to show restraint and understanding with Islam due to a minority of crazy, radical Muslims, yet it's okay to mock and persecute Christianity due to a relatively tiny number of loud-mouthed Evangelicals? Let me know when the "Jesus-freaks" start setting up landmines outside the Smithsonian.
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Laminar
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Sep 2, 2013, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I'm sorry - I'm not necessarily in support of the study linked in the OP. I'm just trying to participate in the conversation.

Laminar in particular has seemed significantly more negative, snarky, trollish, and angry since he got married. Maybe it's a coincidence, but I noticed a particular increase in negative behavior from him following his marriage.
Pure projection.

It does no good to join a conversation about a topic like this just to scream PROVE IT! PROVE IT! at the people who disagree with you. It contributes nothing, it does nothing to support your side of the (not-just-two-sided) debate, and it makes you look like kind of a douche (to some people).
Who was screaming and name calling? I surely wasn't.

Moreover, it seems that the desire is to reduce all examples to "anecdotal evidence".
No need to reduce something down to what it already is.

Since every single person on this planet bases their views of philosophy, religion, and humanities on what they observe from their own experiences and worldview, it's impossible for this discussion to NOT involve "anecdotal evidence".
Sure it is - discuss the article posted and the merits of its testing methods.

If what you're looking for is years-long research using the scientific method to explain one's philosophical beliefs and perspectives on life, you're looking in the wrong place.
Clearly.
     
Laminar
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Sep 2, 2013, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Generalizations based on the lowest common denominator, anyone? We need to show restraint and understanding with Islam due to a minority of crazy, radical Muslims, yet it's okay to mock and persecute Christianity due to a relatively tiny number of loud-mouthed Evangelicals? Let me know when the "Jesus-freaks" start setting up landmines outside the Smithsonian.
Allow me to reference the comparatively few abortion clinic bombings committed by lone bombers acting of their own accord!!
     
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Sep 2, 2013, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Which is very easy to do when we hear much more from the far right Christian types that denounce science and do things like put together creationist museums. Not right to do, but easy. You guys should be more loud
This post only goes to demonstrate your ignorance on the subject. It's discrimination, pure and simple. <---The premise of this thread, I mean. Not you personally, bess

When you go looking to "hear from the far right christian types" you're going to find it. The onus is not on "us" but instead on you to be more informed on the subject should you wish go making blanket generalizations about "far right christian types". This is, of course, only if you're actually interested in an honest debate. You don't hear "us" talking about those "far-left ignorant types" because such terminology and labeling only destroys the potential for productive discussion.

****
The entire premise of this thread is to foster a prejudice against a particular group of people based on their religious views, and I find that just as repulsive as someone who does the same thing based on skin color. You should too.

When the integrity of the study came into question we didn't even last a page before the subject quickly turned to anecdotes, personal attacks, and strawmen. I find it hard to believe that this thread wasn't intended as a circle-jerk of christian bashing, and there were quite a few happily jumping on that bandwagon without even a semblance of objective thought process.

Could you imagine a thread titled "Black people are less intelligent then <insert race here>" ? Many (including myself) would immediately jump to denounce such a premise. If we are not applying the same reasoning equally across the board, we are not being honest with ourselves.

     
Laminar
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Sep 2, 2013, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
This post only goes to demonstrate your ignorance on the subject. It's discrimination, pure and simple. <---The premise of this thread, I mean. Not you personally, bess

When you go looking to "hear from the far right christian types" you're going to find it. The onus is not on "us" but instead on you to be more informed on the subject should you wish go making blanket generalizations about "far right christian types". This is, of course, only if you're actually interested in an honest debate. You don't hear "us" talking about those "far-left ignorant types" because such terminology and labeling only destroys the potential for productive discussion.
"lefties" got me 510 results in the Pol/War Lounge
"far left" got me 308
'ignorant left' got me 226
"Nobama" got me 13 different threads
"Obummer" got 34 posts

How's that for productive discussion?
     
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Sep 2, 2013, 09:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Generalizations based on the lowest common denominator, anyone? We need to show restraint and understanding with Islam due to a minority of crazy, radical Muslims, yet it's okay to mock and persecute Christianity due to a relatively tiny number of loud-mouthed Evangelicals? Let me know when the "Jesus-freaks" start setting up landmines outside the Smithsonian.

Read what I wrote again, especially this part:

Not right to do, but easy
Easy because of the media exposure of the loudmouths, not easy because it is correct or right.
     
besson3c
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Sep 2, 2013, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
This post only goes to demonstrate your ignorance on the subject. It's discrimination, pure and simple. <---The premise of this thread, I mean. Not you personally, bess

When you go looking to "hear from the far right christian types" you're going to find it. The onus is not on "us" but instead on you to be more informed on the subject should you wish go making blanket generalizations about "far right christian types". This is, of course, only if you're actually interested in an honest debate. You don't hear "us" talking about those "far-left ignorant types" because such terminology and labeling only destroys the potential for productive discussion.

****
The entire premise of this thread is to foster a prejudice against a particular group of people based on their religious views, and I find that just as repulsive as someone who does the same thing based on skin color. You should too.

When the integrity of the study came into question we didn't even last a page before the subject quickly turned to anecdotes, personal attacks, and strawmen. I find it hard to believe that this thread wasn't intended as a circle-jerk of christian bashing, and there were quite a few happily jumping on that bandwagon without even a semblance of objective thought process.

Could you imagine a thread titled "Black people are less intelligent then <insert race here>" ? Many (including myself) would immediately jump to denounce such a premise. If we are not applying the same reasoning equally across the board, we are not being honest with ourselves.


Again:

Not right to do, but easy.
"right" as in correct.
     
 
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