[CYearbook]

Hello everyone,

My name is DJ and I'm from Claremont High School. I am also on their Yearbook Staff, and I have a question for you.

In our yearbook lab, we have many types of Macs. iMacs, eMacs, etc. I am in charge of managing all the computers. Personally I have a much better experience with PCs, and prefer them over Macs. But of course, all the schools have Macs. Anyways, currently we have a very old Mac that acts as our server. It is still running Mac OS 9, etc... although all of our other Macs are running OS X.

Lately the server has been down a LOT. It just keeps going up and down. We've tried adding more memory, rebooting, etc. The server is important to us because it is the location of where all our files are stored. That way we can save to the server and pull files off using any computer. Its a real pain getting "lost connection" messages and sometimes not being able to connect at all.

We have discussed possibly getting a new server, which is what we are going to do most likely. All we want to be able to do is use file sharing (Go->Connect to Server) on the server, and set up printers so all the computers can access the same two printers. We dont need tons of fancy features, but possibly having Web Hosting and Email capabilities would be nice. Can you please give me some solutions that would work for us? We have about 40 computers in the lab.

I've look at Mac Servers, and they start at $2999 (I think), which is a little expensive for us. I understand Mac OS X Server offers hosting, mail, etc. Would I be able to buy a G5 and install Mac OS X Server on it? Do I even need Mac OS X Server, or can I just use Max OS X and set it up for file sharing? Please help me out, give me a list of options and price ranges. Again, web hosting / email would be nice with a Mac Server, but it gets pricy. So give me a few options to choose from.

Thanks so much! I am pretty new to dealing with Macs. If it were PCs I would know what to get.

DJ Tarazona -- Claremont High School Yearbook Staff

[Tesseract]

You can turn on file sharing on any Mac running the plain version of OS X.
It's in the Sharing panel of System Preferences.

You'll want an iMac or a G4 or G5 tower, mainly because the 3.5", 7200 rpm hard drives are faster than the ones in laptops and minis. Other than that, pretty much any recent Mac will work as a low to mid traffic file server.

[OreoCookie]

Sounds like your old server is dying.

You can use a regular Mac for filesharing and no, you don't really need OS X server if you think you don't need a central user management system – which certainly helps managing many Macs. Which would also help if you were trying to do the equivalent thing for a Windows lab. I would think that's a desirable asset, but it's up to you to decide.

You can install OS X Server on any OS X (client)-capable Mac.

As far as I see it, you have three choices:

1 Linux Server

If you want a avoid the licensing costs for OS X/Windows Server, Linux might be an option. Don't buy cheapo hardware, I suggest get an older server off ebay, not regular hardware, a real server. Here are some Pros and Cons.

Pros
Hardware (as it is used) is cheaper, but you'll probably have to invest a few bucks after getting it (upgrading the RAM, getting the right server with enough space for cheaper ATA drives which only a few professional servers have (most of them have SCSI drives and drive bay modules).

Cons
You need someone with sufficient knowledge in both Linux and hardware. And seeing as it is a school, that knowledge needs to be passed a long. This is a big con.


2 Used Mac + OS X Server
For filesharing and user management, you don't need a top-of-the-line machine. A dual G4 in the GHz range should do the trick, you can add up to four drives of all available sizes. Put in two 300-400 GB drives and mirror them, that should do the trick.

Pro
Not as expensive. Mac-only solution.

Cons
Older hardware is always an increased risk of failure.


3 XServe + OS X Server
This would be the top-of-the-line solution, obviously. Make sure to check the Edu Shop, that will shave a few bucks off the price.


I would take a closer look at solution #2. Oh, one question: what would you get if it were a pc lab? That could help making the decision here.

[CYearbook]

Thanks for the help everyone.

We would like each staff member to have their own username and password to connect to the server. It would also be really helpful if we could put restrictions on what folders each user can access, etc.

Also, our school newspaper advisor (who uses the same computers as us yearbook staff), says that its not a server issue. Personally I think it is, as recently our login problems and the server going up and down is affecting all of the computers. It seems to be affecting the computers with Mac OX 10.3.9 the most tho. We have started to upgrade to 10.3.9 (most of the computers have 10.2.8 on them), and with 10.3.9, sometimes the Mac doesnt even find the server, when other computers with 10.2.8 can. If this a server issue again? Maybe compatibility issue because the server is running Mac OS 9? What could be causing the 10.3.9 computers to be having even more problems with the server? If we did get a new server, would these problems most likely go away?

Let me know, thanks for all your help!

[OreoCookie]

The problems would be solved if you upgrade the OS. If the hardware is compatible with OS X, there might be no need to upgrade it. What kind of server do you have exactly?

(You can find out by clicking Apple Menu > About This Mac... > More Info.)

Also another note: do not upgrade to Tiger unless you upgrade your server as the sharing protocols are afaik not compatible anymore.

So I would definitely think software-wise OS X Server 10.4 would be the easiest solution. You can use windows-style ACLs (access control lists, I guess you are familiar with them) and have a central user database. If the server doesn't need to do heavy lifting, a machine described under proposal #2 would work fine. You could go lower, but if the network load is too high, you could have performance issues -- don't expect miracles from a 5-year old machine

[CYearbook]

Thanks OreoCookie,

I will get the exact server details in about 3 hours when I am in the yearbook lab. Again, thats for all your help.

[CatOne]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

The problems would be solved if you upgrade the OS. If the hardware is compatible with OS X, there might be no need to upgrade it. What kind of server do you have exactly?

(You can find out by clicking Apple Menu > About This Mac... > More Info.)

Also another note: do not upgrade to Tiger unless you upgrade your server as the sharing protocols are afaik not compatible anymore.

So I would definitely think software-wise OS X Server 10.4 would be the easiest solution. You can use windows-style ACLs (access control lists, I guess you are familiar with them) and have a central user database. If the server doesn't need to do heavy lifting, a machine described under proposal #2 would work fine. You could go lower, but if the network load is too high, you could have performance issues -- don't expect miracles from a 5-year old machine

Of course file sharing protocols (AFP, SMB, etc.) are compatible between 10.3 and 10.4. How could you think they're not?

As for OS X Server -- if your goal is to have multiple users on multiple machines accessing a machine for file sharing -- then OS X will make your life substantially easier. I would definitely recommend it for that case -- regular OS X can do the job, but management of the users (and having a separate account for each "client" machine) is a TON easier with OS X Server.

[Gee4orce]

Sorry, but using Mac OS 9 for a server these days is insane. It's no wonder that you personally have better experience using PCs ! Mac OS X Server is very easy to set up and administer, and the performance is light years ahead of what you're used to.

As for cost, consider what's called Total Cost of Ownership. You could buy a cheap-o PC box and slap Linux on it, but then you'll have to find someone who knows how to administer Linux whenever you need to set something up or change a setting. That won't come cheap.

Mac OS X offers a lot of features that you might not realise you need until you try them - like disk space quotas for users, and network wide login authentication (so that you can log in on any machine and always see the same documents and settings).

[CYearbook]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

The problems would be solved if you upgrade the OS. If the hardware is compatible with OS X, there might be no need to upgrade it. What kind of server do you have exactly?

(You can find out by clicking Apple Menu > About This Mac... > More Info.)

Also another note: do not upgrade to Tiger unless you upgrade your server as the sharing protocols are afaik not compatible anymore.

So I would definitely think software-wise OS X Server 10.4 would be the easiest solution. You can use windows-style ACLs (access control lists, I guess you are familiar with them) and have a central user database. If the server doesn't need to do heavy lifting, a machine described under proposal #2 would work fine. You could go lower, but if the network load is too high, you could have performance issues -- don't expect miracles from a 5-year old machine

Actually, the server is running OS 8.6, worse than I had thought. It does have 1 GB of memory tho. Still, I really think we need to upgrade.

What do you mean by "do not upgrade to Tiger unless you upgrade your server as the sharing protocols are afaik not compatible anymore." Are you talking about the regular computers or the server? Could you explain in more detail. Thanks

[Todd Madson]

What is the server hardware?
Model, ram, disk space?
8.6 is indeed old - is it running Appleshare or something like that?
Frightening. last time I saw one of those in an actual use environment was 1994 or so.

[CYearbook]

I dont know much about the server hardware, as I dont have the key to the room right now. But I can say that the HD is ONLY about 2 GB of diskpace (only has about 500 MB remaining), it has 1 GB of Ram, and I dont know the model, buts it looks like a green/bluish powermac. :S

EDIT: Oh, and yes, its running Appleshare.

[OreoCookie]

8.6 is younger than 1994. In Windows terms, it's the equivalent of Windows 98, roughly, and technologically it's on par with Windows 98, too If memory serves me right, Blue & White G3s were the last machines to be released with OS 8.6. So the probability that you will not be able to run OS X on that machine is not negligible If it has a Blue and White case, in principle you could install 10.4 Server on it, the question is: would you want to?

To answer your last question: Tiger's networking routines is incompatible with those of (at least) OS 8.x, so you will not even be able to use your machine as a server if have clients running 10.4 (aka Tiger).

Even if your hardware is capable of running OS X, you'd have the equivalent user experience of using a P3 450 running Windows XP server. It does work, but it won't be fast. For instance, a P3 450 running Linux needs around 30-40 % of cpu to saturate a 100 MBit connection, and that's the network driver only! If you don't have much traffic, you could do it, but if you want to install a new harddrive for instance, you need to buy an ATA card to install a drive with a capacity larger than 127 GB.

So please post some detailed specs of the machine (via the Apple System Profiler, I told you about that in an earlier post). If your current server is OS X incompatible, you are out of luck.

[goMac]

It sounds like you need Mac OS X server.

Buy any machine you want and then buy Mac OS X Server separately and load it on. You don't have to buy an XServe to use Mac OS X. I think an XServe is overkill for what you want to do. A Powermac might be your best option.

Also take a look at Apple's educational pricing.

[goMac]

BTW, you won't find get the specs of the machine in the place Oreo is talking about (psstttt. That wasn't introduced until 10.3 ). Look for Apple System Profiler in either Applications or Applications/Utilities.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by goMac

BTW, you won't find get the specs of the machine in the place Oreo is talking about (psstttt. That wasn't introduced until 10.3 ). Look for Apple System Profiler in either Applications or Applications/Utilities.

My bad, I haven't used a pre-OS X OS in years
goMac is right, you'll find Apple System Profiler there.

[Brass]

You can do all you file serving and print serving on standard Mac OS X (client). You don't need the server version for that. For more versatile file sharing, add the shareware "SharePoints" to Mac OS X (client).

You can also do all the user management and email services you might want on Mac OS X (client), but it's not as simple as with the server version, and you'd probably want to add some (free) software to make the job easier.

If you can't afford Mac OS X Server, then plain old Mac OS X (client) can do all you need.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Brass

You can do all you file serving and print serving on standard Mac OS X (client). You don't need the server version for that. For more versatile file sharing, add the shareware "SharePoints" to Mac OS X (client).

You can also do all the user management and email services you might want on Mac OS X (client), but it's not as simple as with the server version, and you'd probably want to add some (free) software to make the job easier.

If you can't afford Mac OS X Server, then plain old Mac OS X (client) can do all you need.

Having worked with OS X Server greatly it really sounds like he needs OS X Server. Yes, you can jury rig OS X client to do these things, but it's not going to be very robust. He needs something like workgroup manager, OS X Server Sharepoints, etc. Also OS X Server Printer sharing is tons more robust. It really sounds like in a yearbook sort of environment good printer management and queuing would be a plus. OS X Server can bridge two printers as one on the network and manage which printers are busy and redirect traffic. He also said web sharing (web sharing in OS X Server blows the web sharing in OS X client out of the water) and mail serving would be a plus.

It really sounds like a good idea to go with OS X Server here. Otherwise he's going to be stuck with a light weight server that probably will just cause him more stress in getting set up to work right. Not only that, but if he buys OS X Server, he gets support and a guarantee that things will work. Can't say that about OS X Client.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by goMac

Having worked with OS X Server greatly it really sounds like he needs OS X Server. Yes, you can jury rig OS X client to do these things, but it's not going to be very robust. He needs something like workgroup manager, OS X Server Sharepoints, etc. Also OS X Server Printer sharing is tons more robust. It really sounds like in a yearbook sort of environment good printer management and queuing would be a plus. OS X Server can bridge two printers as one on the network and manage which printers are busy and redirect traffic. He also said web sharing (web sharing in OS X Server blows the web sharing in OS X client out of the water) and mail serving would be a plus.

It really sounds like a good idea to go with OS X Server here. Otherwise he's going to be stuck with a light weight server that probably will just cause him more stress in getting set up to work right. Not only that, but if he buys OS X Server, he gets support and a guarantee that things will work. Can't say that about OS X Client.

I second that. If you have that many Macs, keeping all users and passwords synchronized would be a bitch.

[capuchin]

I third it. For the money, it's a hell of a deal if you think about the hours and hours of hacking away to get something merely approximately good on os x client.

[brokenjago]

You can use an iMac G5 as a perfectly usable server (after installing OS X server, of course). Entry level Educationally discounted iMacs start at $1199: a far cry from the $2999 you quoted.

[GENERAL_SMILEY]

I installed Panther server on my B&W G3 as an 'experiment', ran fine. Admittedly my ad hoc network of four macs connected to it is probably not a realistic strain.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by goMac

Having worked with OS X Server greatly it really sounds like he needs OS X Server. Yes, you can jury rig OS X client to do these things, but it's not going to be very robust. He needs something like workgroup manager, OS X Server Sharepoints, etc. Also OS X Server Printer sharing is tons more robust. It really sounds like in a yearbook sort of environment good printer management and queuing would be a plus. OS X Server can bridge two printers as one on the network and manage which printers are busy and redirect traffic. He also said web sharing (web sharing in OS X Server blows the web sharing in OS X client out of the water) and mail serving would be a plus.

It really sounds like a good idea to go with OS X Server here. Otherwise he's going to be stuck with a light weight server that probably will just cause him more stress in getting set up to work right. Not only that, but if he buys OS X Server, he gets support and a guarantee that things will work. Can't say that about OS X Client.

Not sure what you mean by robust here, as I think OS X client is just as robust as OS X Server. I do agree that OS X server makes it a lot easier to do a lot of server/management type tasks and services, however, I don't think OS X client is any less robust.

You may have a different idea of what robust means in an operating system than what I do. When I think of robust, I think of being less crash prone, less buggy, more reliable.

I don't see how OS X server is more robust in this sense than OS X client.

However, I do agree with you that OS X Server may better suit his needs. I just wanted to make sure he was aware of the options.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Brass

Not sure what you mean by robust here, as I think OS X client is just as robust as OS X Server. I do agree that OS X server makes it a lot easier to do a lot of server/management type tasks and services, however, I don't think OS X client is any less robust.

Sure it is. OS X Client is missing whole components OS X Server has. OS X Server has a more robust print server, LDAP server, software update server, mail server, all out of the box. He can deploy all of these things if he wants.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by goMac

Sure it is. OS X Client is missing whole components OS X Server has. OS X Server has a more robust print server, LDAP server, software update server, mail server, all out of the box. He can deploy all of these things if he wants.

I think you've completely missed the point of my last post.

I was not talking about ease-of-use features. I was talking about how "robust" the software is, and what you think "robust" means. I don't think the client is any less robust than the server, and by this, I mean that it's no less stable or reliable than the server version. Sure it has less features, but all of those can be replaced by freeware that is probably not as easy to use, but just as robust.

If you don't think it's as robust, please explain your definition of robust, because I don't think it's anything to do with how many features the sytem has, but more to do with how stable the system is.

Having said that, I AGAIN repeat that he's probably better off with the Server version (IF he can afford it).

[Partisan01]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Also another note: do not upgrade to Tiger unless you upgrade your server as the sharing protocols are afaik not compatible anymore.

I don't know which protocols are not compatible anymore, last night I connected my 5400/200 to my Tiger 10.4.2 server with an apple share. The 5400 uses OS 8, it worked like a charm, I was even able to see all the folder colors on the 5400 that I set in Tiger. The speed was a little slow, but that's because the 5400 is only 10mbit. All the other protocols on Tiger are open standards, FTP,NFS,HTTP,NIS. All I did in OS 8 was select the chooser, type in my server IP and it came up as expected. I don't think Apple's changed a thing. In the past I've also connected System 7 to 10.3. I have not connected System 7 to 10.4 as I've upgraded to System 8 on that machine.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Partisan01

I don't know which protocols are not compatible anymore, last night I connected my 5400/200 to my Tiger 10.4.2 server with an apple share. The 5400 uses OS 8, it worked like a charm, I was even able to see all the folder colors on the 5400 that I set in Tiger. The speed was a little slow, but that's because the 5400 is only 10mbit. All the other protocols on Tiger are open standards, FTP,NFS,HTTP,NIS. All I did in OS 8 was select the chooser, type in my server IP and it came up as expected. I don't think Apple's changed a thing. In the past I've also connected System 7 to 10.3. I have not connected System 7 to 10.4 as I've upgraded to System 8 on that machine.

Yes, you described a connection in the opposite direction which I know works fine.

However, Tiger cannot access shares on an OS 8 machine, click here for details. The other way around (as written in the knowledge base) works fine.

So if his server runs 8.6 (which the OP says it does), he's out of luck.

[waffffffle]

8.6 added AFP IP client, which can connect to an OS X AFP server. OS 9 added an extension that does AFP IP sharing so OS X clients can connect. Regardless, I would get classic off of your machines ASAP. It's not worth the hassle.

Get a low end G5 tower and buy OS X Server. EDU pricing on OS X Server is dirt cheap. Don't use an iMac because you only have 1 drive bay. With the G5 you can add a second hard drive and more RAM if you need it in the future. There are also ways to expand your storage to 3 additional drives so the G5 tower would make a bunch better server down the road.

The Xserve, while a great value, doesn't work well in a classroom environment where there is no rack to mount it. You don't want the Xserve sitting on a desk. The G5 tower is something you can put on the floor. Another option is using a Mac mini, installing OS X Server but using an external firewire drive as the main storage. The internal drive in the mini is way too slow for server use. Installing OS X Server on a Mac mini is a little tricky though, and requires some extra steps.

[CYearbook]

Hey everyone, I'm back.

I would like to thank everyone who has helped me do all this research. I am having a meeting in 2 days with my advisors and we are going to make a decision. If you can offer any more information that would help me show them that an upgrade to OS X Server would be very benificial, please let me know.

I also want to clarify some things...

1) New Macs using OS X 1.4 Tigher will NOT be able to see / connect to our volumes/ shares on our OS 8.6 Server using AppleShare IP. Correct?

2) With ACLs, can I restrict users to only VIEWING files, but not modifying / writing?

3) Can I password protect files / folders?

4) If I buy Mac OS X Server, can I install it on a Mac to test how fast / smoothly it runs, then if we we need to, buy a new server and put OS X Server on that one too? Will I need to remove it off the other Mac? Just checking because I dont want to hit any licensing issues, etc.

Thanks!

[CatOne]

1) Can't recall.

2) Sure. But you can do this with standard UNIX permissions as well. Consider ACLs only if you CAN'T do something with standard UNIX permissions.

3) Not via the OS. You might be able to with the apps themselves (i.e. Word documents). You CAN create an encrypted disk image that is password protected, and put sensitive files in there.

4) Not sure what your question is. You can install OS X Server on a machine for testing, and if you decide to buy another machine to run it on as production, you can reformat the "test" machine and install OS X Server on the production machine. I believe the OS X Server license does a network check, so if you try and run it on 2 machines on the same network at the same time with the same license, stuff will go pear-shaped.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by CYearbook

1) New Macs using OS X 1.4 Tigher will NOT be able to see / connect to our volumes/ shares on our OS 8.6 Server using AppleShare IP. Correct?

No, it will definitely not work.

Originally Posted by CYearbook

2) With ACLs, can I restrict users to only VIEWING files, but not modifying / writing?

ACLs work just like on windows. You can enable everything from read to write-only access if you wish.

Originally Posted by CYearbook

3) Can I password protect files / folders?

You cannot password-protect folders, but there are alternatives to password-protected folders. Either via ACLs, so you enable access to the people you want to have access to that folder, or you create a diskimage with password protection. Either way, you can get what you want.

Originally Posted by CYearbook

4) If I buy Mac OS X Server, can I install it on a Mac to test how fast / smoothly it runs, then if we we need to, buy a new server and put OS X Server on that one too? Will I need to remove it off the other Mac? Just checking because I dont want to hit any licensing issues, etc.

If you buy one copy of OS X Server, you may run it only on one machine. But obviously you can test it on another machine before buying.

If you decide you want to buy a server, you can use the migration assistant to move all the data and settings from your test server to your new server.