[Metro]

I have been trying to boot from an external HD with System 6.0.8 copied from a disk image of the System Software. Problem is it won't boot up, just a question mark? It is an APS HD with probably newer drivers on it.

I have one of the old HD's that it came with that has 6.0.8 on it and it will boot from this HD, but it is on it's last legs.

I'm confused, I have tried hooking up the old HD to my 8500 but it is not recognized.

Is this a driver problem, or I also heard that you have to use System 7.6.1 expand 6.0.8 from the Disk images properly. Summary I have 6.0.8 on my 8500 in Disk Image form and on floppies. But no boot, except on old drive.

Any ideas?? Thanks..

[reader50]

I assume that you formatted the new external HD with Drive Setup. For any Mac that uses a 68030 processor or older, you must use Apple's HD SC Setup instead.

[MacMonster]

The newer versions of Mac OS seem cannot active the Pre-7 system folders, you need System 7.x to active instead.

[Metro]

Let me see if I have this right.

1. The Disk Images on my 8500 System 8, I can't use because they do not write correctly to a floppy, because it is System 8?

2. I can't use the Disk Images unless I downgrade my 8500 to System 7.5 or 7.6? Then it will right the Disk Images correctly or Expand them correctly?

3. If this is the case and all the problems lie in System 8, any suggestions besides downgrading to System 7? I guess I could install System 7 on an external drive and try to boot from that? Then expand the disc images on this drive?

4. Also I believe I have updated my external HD with Apples newest drivers, is this a problem as well?

I know this should be simple, but am I missing here? Thanks for any help!

The disk images should write just fine. What are the exact errors you are getting?

You may have a bad floppy drive or bad floppies.

Can you write other images to floppies? Are only the 6.0.8 ones giving you problems?

Try formatting the drives with an older version of drive setup. The latest should only be used with newer System software. 8.6 or 9.

Try this link. Start with 1.0.5, the oldest.

ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/Utilities/Drive_Setup/

[reader50]

Some clarification, my previous answer was a bit vague. If you format a HD for use on a 68030 or older system, the driver installed by Drive Setup will not work. The Drive Setup driver requires a 68040 or later CPU. You can however format with Drive Setup, then run HD SC Setup & "update the driver" - this will replace the Drive Setup driver with the older one that will work with older Macs like your Plus. Or you could do the format with HD SC Setup to begin with - either method installs the older HD driver that you need.

Most likely, the old HD is not recognized by your 8500 because the driver on it is an even older version. However, don't try to update that driver - doing so could damage the information on that older HD before you can retrieve the data. The new drivers are larger than the old ones, an update to a new driver could overflow the driver partition into the directory area.

This issue does not affect floppy drives because floppy drives do not have an on-disk driver. Disk images should write to floppy just fine. If System 7 is required to write 6.0.8 properly to a floppy disk, then you could boot from a System 7 CD to handle the operation. No need to downgrade your entire system to System 7.

Remember, your Plus can only read/write 800K floppies, not the 1.44 floppies your 8500 formats by default. You can trick your 8500 into formatting a 1.44 floppy as 800K by covering the 1.44 detect hole. That's the hole opposite the write protect hole. Usually a piece of scotch tape over the 1.44 hole is enough to make your 8500 see the floppy as 800K and format accordingly. Then copy over the 800K disk images, they should now be readable by your Plus.

About the newer HD, it also could be that Mac OS 8 is not blessing the 6.0.8 System Folder. If using the HD SC Setup driver does not completely fix the problem, you can forcibly bless a System Folder with System Picker, an old utility from Apple that will bless a System Folder of your choice. I use this utility on those rare occasions when my Mac becomes difficult about selecting a copied System Folder.

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: reader50 ]

[Metro]

Ok...Thanks for the help so far. I have gotten a little closer. This is where I stand now.

I started up the 8500 with System 7.5.2 and Erased my external APS Micropolis HD. I installed System 7.5.2 on this drive. I then restarted with this as my Start Up Drive. I was then able to use Disk Image and made a bootable floppy that started the Mac Plus!

So I figured I could then install System 6.0.8 that I had on my floppies to the Micropolis. No chance. It insist that it can't do it.

I went into Custom install and it started like it was going to install by doing this. It started to go into the install screen, then the installer says:

"The file 'Finder' is more recent then the one you area about to Install, click continue to replace with the older version." I clicked continue and then it does the same for "System"

At this point then it comes up with this error:

"Cannot overwrite a protected resource on the Disk "Micropolis". Error detected before installation began"

I have tried to update the Driver on the Micropolis with both the 7.5.2 drive Set up (which sasy it cannot modify unsupported drives), and also with System 6.0.8 HD SC Setup V 2.0.3

Any ideas are very much appreciated!! Thanks for the help so far.

[reader50]

HD SC Setup will refuse to format non-Apple drives. There is a simple patch that will remove that block. Metro, I can't seem to access your email listing, if you will send me an email I will send back the patcher.

Once you format the drive (including Apple driver) with the patched HD SC Setup, I would expect 6.0.8 to install to the empty drive with no complaints. I don't believe you will be able to install 6.0.8 to a drive that already has 7.x on it. After formatting that external drive with the patched HD SD Setup, you might have to boot your Plus from the boot floppy, and install 6.0.8 from the Plus.

It sounds like we have your problem on the run now. Let's finish it off.

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: reader50 ]

[reader50]

Originally emailed by Metro:
<STRONG>Thanks for all your feedback! You can send the patcher back to this
address. I would appreciate it. After spending many hours trying to
get this running it will be nice to have it finished, and set up for
other software.

A question or two on the patcher. Will it be a problem if I apply it
and decide to eventually put the Mac Plus System on a different disk
in the future. Will the Micropolis still be able to have its drivers
updated so I could use it with OS 8-9? And does this apply to any
disk I may use..that they cannot hold the System correctly or be
written to, was this just System 6 that has this problem?

Once again thanks for all your feedback, and I'll post back as soon
as I get it running.

Thanks,

Metro</STRONG>

The patcher changes one byte in HD SC Setup to remove the block against non-Apple SCSI drives. Nothing else is changed, the Apple driver installed is the normal driver. No one knows for sure why Apple put the block into HD SC Setup, it turns out the Apple driver works fine on almost all 3rd party SCSI drives. Perhaps Apple just didn't want the support calls for non-Apple drives.

A non-Apple HD with Apple drivers on it will work with OS 6-7-8-9. It will even work with OS X, although if you have a G3/G4 without on-board SCSI, you will need a SCSI card with OS X drivers or firmware. You will still be able to reformat the drive, and install a later driver in the future, however the included HD SC Setup is the last one released. That means it includes the last driver that works with 68030 Macs or earlier. Any later driver will shut out your Plus. The advantage of later drivers is that they are faster on later systems.

I have attached the patcher. Enjoy.

note: I didn't write the patch.

Good luck.
reader50

[Metro]

It's looking much better! Thanks for the patch.

First I booted up in 7.5.2 then I 'Initialized' the APS HD and 'updated' the Drivers with no problem with the patched HD SC Setup.

I then Installed System 6.0.8 from the floppies on the 8500 A/V. Once I plugged in the SCSI cable to the Mac Plus it booted right up from the APS HD.

I have transferred some programs from the old drive that was with the Mac Plus, but the other drive comes up as a damaged disk, even booting up from the floppie. But it is much quiter with the APS drive than the old one, which was a 'Data Frame'. Don't know if you have heard of them before!

Some problems I am still having trouble with. When I boot up from the APS everything is fine except one thing. The Mac Plus makes a sound like the ticking of a clock. But when you put a floppie in it stops. It is almost like it wants to read a floppie.It does not make this sound when I use the old 'Data Frame' HD, (with floppie or without). I have no clue why this is happening.And it is not the APS that is making the sound.

Another interesting thing is that on the APS I have the 6.0.8 System folder on it. But when I rebooted after dealing with the old drives and then reconnecting the APS it has a Trash folder now in the HD.In this folder is a Finder, System, I forget the other (Enabler?).

The ones in the Trash indicate the time correctly (that I set when I went to Control Panels after the first boot) when I do a 'get info' on them. The others in the real System Folder show 1907 or some such date. I guess the battery should be replaced.

So I now have it running but it ticks, and it made another bare System folder. I have not trashed it yet and rebooted, but wanted to get this info out.

[reader50]

I have no ideas about the ticking sound.

About the Trash, it shows the trash from all mounted volumes. Try a get-Info on the trashed system files. That will show which drive they are actually on. They may be on the old HD, left over from previous install efforts.

If the old HD shows as damaged, get everything important off it as soon as possible. You might be able to salvage the old HD afterwards with a low level format - but it's pretty old to begin with.

Glad to hear the good news.