[aberdeenwriter]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/t...20041124.shtml

Europe to the barricades by Tony Blankley

November 24, 2004


This Christmastime could be the moment when Western Europe finally joins our war on terrorism. Anti-Islamist fear and anger from the mouths of the European volk are breaking through the surface calm perpetuated by the elite European appeasers. The assassination and mutilation of Dutch filmmaker van Gogh by an Islamic fanatic -- and the retaliatory fire-bombings of mosques by ethnic Dutchmen -- has forced high European leaders and news outlets to begin to publicly face up to the implications of Sept. 11, 2001 and the migration of Muslims in large and hostile numbers into the heart of Europe.

EDIT: To include the whole article.
_
From Holland's leading newspaper, the Telegraaf, to Germany's liberal Berliner Zeitung and Der Spiegel (roughly, the European equivalents of the The New York Times, The Washington Post and Time magazine) has come the same heated prose that could be found in the United States in the aftermath of September 11. And here in the United States, even the liberal National Public Radio Network's (NPR) "All Things Considered" is beginning to seriously report European volkish fury the way they usually report breathlessly on the latest developments in Brazilian rainforest depletion.

_Der Spiegel wrote: "The veil of multiculturalism has been lifted, revealing parallel societies where the law of the state does not apply." The Berliner Zeitung headlined their story: "Fear is spreading." In Holland, the very dignified Telegraaf wrote: " ... magazines and papers which include incitements should be suppressed, unsuitable mosques should be shut down and imams who encourage illegal acts should be thrown out of the country."

_Earlier this week, NPR's "All Things Considered" reported on the findings of German television's ZDF TV after they had secretly placed a camera inside a German Islamic mosque. The Imam is heard saying (in translation): "Those Germans, those atheists, they don't shave their armpits. Their sweat spreads evil smells. They stink. They are atheists. What good do they do to us? And since they are unbelievers, in the afterlife, they can only burn in hell." Obviously, this did not go down well when the German public saw and heard such things.

_Later in the NPR report they quote from other communications by German Islamics now being revealed to the German public. A teacher at the Riksdorfer Elementary School -- a German government school that under German court ruling three years ago must teach its mostly Muslim students Muslim curriculum -- read an anonymous letter he received: "Germany is an Islamic country. Islam is in the home, in schools. Germans will be outnumbered. We [Muslims] will say what we want. We'll live how we want. It's outrageous that Germans demand we speak their language. Our children will have our language, our laws, our culture."

_It is just such inflammatory events that led Der Spiegel this week to report that "A debate on the integration of Muslims is raging in Germany." The article went on to report that: "Computer keyboards across the country are smoking as editorialists pontificate on the pros and cons of multiculturalism ... It is heated and on the verge of becoming poisoned."

_Heating the German national broth is the re-emergence of a call for German "Leitkultur," the term for the dominant and guiding culture. Der Speigel quotes Christian Democratic leader Joerg Schoenbohm: "In the Middle Ages, ghettos were founded to marginalize the Jews. Today, some of the foreigners who live with us in Germany have founded their own ghettos because they scorn us Germans. Those who come here have to adopt the German Leitkultur. Our history has developed over a thousand years. We cannot allow that this basis of our commonality be destroyed by foreigners."

_Edmund Stoibel, the Bavarian Christian Social Union's candidate for chancellor two years ago said: "We have to defend the Christian tradition of our country." Even the Social Democrat Chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Shroeder, called for banning headscarves for schoolteachers in German public schools.

_Meanwhile, the green/animal rights left of the European spectrum has started demonstrating against the Islamic Eid Al-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice, because it requires the throat slitting of rams and lambs. Italian police in the town of Luino recently had to break up the left-wing demonstrators as they confronted angry Muslim celebrants who were chanting "Allah u Akhbar" in front of the Luino slaughterhouse.

_In a recent article, Chuck Colson quotes Bassam Tibi, a moderate Muslim leader in Germany: "Either Islam gets Europeanized or Europe gets Islamized." The Speaker of the Dutch Parliament, Jozias van Aartsen, proclaimed two weeks ago that "The jihad has come to the Netherlands," while at a memorial to van Gogh a Dutch schoolteacher said that; "This is not just a small event. It's part of the World Trade Center and Madrid. We must see this."

_Yes, through the blinding smoke of Iraq and through the endless fuming of M. Chirac, the common people -- the timeless volk -- of Europe are beginning to see their true enemy -- radical Islam. The will to survive and prevail is not yet spent in the hearts of our European cousins. They are late to the battle that is now raging. But they are not too late. The second great anti-fascist Euro-American alliance is now beginning to form on the foundation of our two common democratic peoples. Their spineless governments will follow and will soon be run by fighting leaders uplifted from the ranks.

[CreepingDeth]

Maybe in Holand, but our buddies up north and our snooty "allies" in Europe are still�



asleep.

[roberto blanco]

YES!

[nath]

It seems unlikely that Europeans would ever become as frightened as some Americans have become, because most of Europe has had prior experience of terrorism, and because we have always had a large and vibrant muslim population.

It's much easier to whip up fear in a population when it's a relatively unknown quantity being branded 'the enemy'. aberdeenwriter will agree with this, being a big fan of documentary series 'The Power of Nightmares'.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by nath:
It seems unlikely that Europeans would ever become as frightened as some Americans have become, because most of Europe has had prior experience of terrorism, and because we have always had a large and vibrant muslim population.

you wouldn't believe what conservatives and the political right wing have done here in the last few weeks to spread FUD und drive a wedge between muslims and "non-muslims". some of their rhetoric sounds very 1930's ish...

[nath]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
you wouldn't believe what conservatives and the political right wing have done here in the last few weeks to spread FUD und drive a wedge between muslims and "non-muslims". some of their rhetoric sounds very 1930's ish...

I hear you. The OP in this thread sounds like some kind of relic from the McCarthy-era witchhunts, although the emphasis on religion and 'large and hostile numbers' does recall early Nazi propaganda.

[Troll]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
[BThis Christmastime could be the moment when Western Europe finally joins our war on terrorism.[/B]

Can someone remind townhall.com how many European soldiers have been killed in action in Afghanistan.

[badidea]

Originally posted by Troll:
Can someone remind townhall.com how many European soldiers have been killed in action in Afghanistan.

Germany joined the war on terror on day 1 (and we still are in Afghanistan) but it seems that certain people here still aren't able to differentiate between the war on terror and the war against Iraq!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Maybe in Holand, but our buddies up north and our snooty "allies" in Europe are still�

asleep.

GREAT PIC! LOL

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Maybe in Holand, but our buddies up north and our snooty "allies" in Europe are still�

asleep.

Europe was fighting terrorism long before your country even became the main sponsor of the IRA terrorists.

Sad that it took 9/11 for you to wake up.

[nath]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Europe was fighting terrorism long before your country even became the main sponsor of the IRA terrorists.

+++

[aberdeenwriter]

I decided to include the whole article to my original post just so we'd all be on the same page.

[nath]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
I decided to include the whole article to my original post just so we'd all be on the same page.

It seems unlikely that Europeans would ever become as frightened as some Americans have become, because most of Europe has had prior experience of terrorism, and because we have always had a large and vibrant muslim population.

It's much easier to whip up fear in a population when it's a relatively unknown quantity being branded 'the enemy'. aberdeenwriter will agree with this, being a big fan of documentary series 'The Power of Nightmares'.

[Troll]

"OUR" war on terrorism!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
you wouldn't believe what conservatives and the political right wing have done here in the last few weeks to spread FUD und drive a wedge between muslims and "non-muslims". some of their rhetoric sounds very 1930's ish...

Of course now we must consider what constitutes a moderate Muslim. There are those who say there are the extremists and their supporters.

Then, there are muslims who are unaware of the Quran's writings which, I am 'told,' make jihad a sacred obligation and once aware, these would-be moderates feel obligated to accept the validity of jihad.

Then there are those who actively reject that aspect of Islam.

But, are the members of this last category no longer true believers if they totally reject the Quran's jihadist teachings?

I will start a new thread using this same post. "What is a moderate Muslim?"

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
It seems unlikely that Europeans would ever become as frightened as some Americans have become, because most of Europe has had prior experience of terrorism, and because we have always had a large and vibrant muslim population.

Oh Bull. Muslim immigration, in, for example, Britain, didn't begin until the 1950s. The numbers were very small until the mid 1970s, when the first big wave came in fleeing Idi Amin's Uganda. In countries like Holland it was more recent than that. Europe was until very recently monocultural.

In fact, the US has handled immiration much better than most of Europe. We don't have your neo-Nazi problem, terms like "Paki Bashing" aren't known here. We have a very large Muslim population that is much more integrated than those in Europe and is not visibly extreme. The 9/11 hijackers were immigrants to Europe, not the US.

What we don't tolerate, though, is people killing us by the thousands. And even though you have experienced terrorism, you haven't experienced anything on the scale of 9/11, and I hope that you never do.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Oh Bull. Muslim immigration, in, for example, Britain, didn't begin until the 1950s. The numbers were very small until the mid 1970s, when the first big wave came in fleeing Idi Amin's Uganda. In countries like Holland it was more recent than that. Europe was until very recently monocultural.

Meh. I was gonna go with this point, but Simey beat me to it.

Is Europe waking up?
No. WW3 will need to start before Europe wakes up (Europe didn't wake up before WW1 or WW2 either).

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Europe was fighting terrorism long before your country even became the main sponsor of the IRA terrorists.

Sad that it took 9/11 for you to wake up.

And it looks like you forgot some of those "other" attacks by nationalists in the 70's.

Stop acting like a hawk. It's sad how you guys politicize national security and take every opportunity given for partisan attacks on Bush. Your side lives off of the hope of America's destruction.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Europe was until very recently monocultural.

that's a contradiction in and of itself. you've had population migrations in europe for thousands of years.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
We don't have your neo-Nazi problem...

no, you have your very own 'neo-nazi problem'.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
We have a very large Muslim population that is much more integrated than those in Europe and is not visibly extreme.

compared to france, germany and england, you have virtually no muslim population at all.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What we don't tolerate, though, is people killing us by the thousands. And even though you have experienced terrorism, you haven't experienced anything on the scale of 9/11...

are you kidding me? terrorism didn't start with the christian/muslim conflict. may i remind you of the biggest terror organization in the history of mankind... (no, i'm not talking about aldi)

[eklipse]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What we don't tolerate, though, is people killing us by the thousands.

Damn straight.

If there's any killing-by-the-thousands going down, it damn well better be Americans doing the killing!

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Meh. I was gonna go with this point, but Simey beat me to it.

Is Europe waking up?
No. WW3 will need to start before Europe wakes up (Europe didn't wake up before WW1 or WW2 either).

Odd pattern, huh?

WWI: Ferdinand killed, everyone joins in due to alliances, Russia eyes Constantanople, Marxists take over Russia, Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, futile trench warfare, Americans come in and war is over.

WWII: Hitler and Mussolini come into power in the 30's and 20's, Britain and France seek a policy of appeasement�Neville Chamberlain, Germany makes moves on Poland and surrounding countries, Non-Aggression pact with Russia, Germany sweeps through northern France, Germany pursues Barbarossa and Orient, ending non-aggression, America attacked, America enters, the Fox is beaten in Africa, allies invade Italy, allies invade France, push against Hitler's last stand, crush him, VE Day.

WWIII:����? Who knows. After being pacifists throughout the Cold War to present, the spark in the powder barrel will have to be huge. Besides, it only took a month after 9/11 before Europe started its crap again. Madrid did not spark any retaliation on Europe's part, let alone Spain who obeyed the terrorist demands.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
that's a contradiction in and of itself. you've had population migrations in europe for thousands of years.

Until recently, migrant populations generally took on the nature of the host country almost immediately (or, in the case of conquests made the country take on the migrant culture). It's only recently that native populations have had to allow alternative foreign culture to reside within its boundaries. As recently as the '80s there wasn't really a major problem (I certainly don't remember having to be a good multiculturalist in the '80s).

The recent infatuation with political correctness and human rights laws are mainly to blame for most of the problems.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Oh Bull. Muslim immigration, in, for example, Britain, didn't begin until the 1950s. The numbers were very small until the mid 1970s, when the first big wave came in fleeing Idi Amin's Uganda. In countries like Holland it was more recent than that. Europe was until very recently monocultural.

In fact, the US has handled immiration much better than most of Europe. We don't have your neo-Nazi problem, terms like "Paki Bashing" aren't known here. We have a very large Muslim population that is much more integrated than those in Europe and is not visibly extreme. The 9/11 hijackers were immigrants to Europe, not the US.

What we don't tolerate, though, is people killing us by the thousands. And even though you have experienced terrorism, you haven't experienced anything on the scale of 9/11, and I hope that you never do.

I guess you've never heard of the term "gestarbeiter". That started very soon after WWII. Unfortunately the plan was to get people into Europe to work at the reconstruction and then go back. What happened? The people decided to stay there. There has always been a large population of Muslims in Europe. Or did you forget about the history of Spain and in former Yugoslavia?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
There has always been a large population of Muslims in Europe.

I'm pretty sure that there were no muslims in Europe in 500 A.D.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I'm pretty sure that there were no muslims in Europe in 500 A.D.

true.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Until recently, migrant populations generally took on the nature of the host country almost immediately.

errrr. no.

Originally posted by Sherwin:
It's only recently that native populations have had to allow alternative foreign culture to reside within its boundaries.

oh boy, where to begin? how about the irish in england? the germans in romania, russia etc. what about jewish people? etc.

Originally posted by Sherwin:
The recent infatuation with political correctness and human rights laws are mainly to blame for most of the problems.

if you are talking about terrorism, you couldn't be further from the truth. actually 'political correctness' and 'human rights laws' have been among the few things which haven't contributed to the problem, - as opposed to economics, politics, religion, and of course imperialism and oil. the list goes on...

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Europe was until very recently monocultural.

Crap. Take a trip round Spain and take in some of the Moorish architecture, then come back here and tell me about the recent monoculture.

I didn't explain myself very well or at any length, but the physical interface between Europe and the Arab World (Turkey/North Africa) was always going to mean that we are more accustomed to, and therefore less afraid of Arabic culture. I'm not claiming that Americans are somehow naturally racist toward Arabs; just that Islam fits nicely into the bogeyman spot left open by the decline of the USSR. I think that was made clear by the second paragraph of my post (which you ignored)

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
We don't have your neo-Nazi problem, terms like "Paki Bashing" aren't known here.

You most certainly do have a deeply embedded problem with neo-Nazis. You even had to call the National Guard in to enforce racial integration in schools! I've never heard the term 'Paki Bashing' used in Britain. I'm sure there are racially motivated assaults here as there are anywhere...I'm guessing you don't want to go into US stats for assaults/illegal searches on Arabs since 9/11?

'Towelhead' is the preferred American term of abuse for Arabs though, isn't it? Turns up 12 search results even on this forum. I would challenge you to get a similar result with the term you brought up on a UK tech forum.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
you haven't experienced anything on the scale of 9/11, and I hope that you never do.

Complete, unmitigated BS. Northern Ireland is just slightly less than one fifth of the area of Ireland, which, in US terms, would almost fit into Lake Superior. Between 1971 and 1982 alone, there were over 28,500 shooting incidents in Northern Ireland, over 7200 bomb explosions and another 3100-plus bombs neutralized, over 9600 armed robberies, and over 17,000 civilian injuries--an injury or death in one out of every twenty households.

You get an idea of the scale of the violence if you multiply the figures by 150 to arise at a comparable figure for the U.S. population. Thus, the number of dead would stand at 345,000--almost as many as the number of people who died in the American Civil War--and the number of civilians injured at 2,550,000.

Much of it funded by US citizens, lest we forget.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What we don't tolerate, though, is people killing us by the thousands.

I guess you could say you don't tolerate it. However in terms of foreign policy you appear to be doing everything you can to encourage it.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
errrr. no.



oh boy, where to begin? how about the irish in england?

If you can spot the difference between an Irish family and an English family without their opening their mouths (i.e accent), then you're a better man than me. Not exactly a huge culture difference for people moving either way.

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
if you are talking about terrorism, you couldn't be further from the truth. actually 'political correctness' and 'human rights laws' have been among the few things which haven't contributed to the problem, - as opposed to economics, politics, religion, and of course imperialism and oil. the list goes on...

I wasn't talking about terrorism - I was talking about general problems of integration. Oh, and I'd like to see how you think politics doesn't incorporate human rights laws and political correctness. Seriously.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
Crap. Take a trip round Spain and take in some of the Moorish architecture, then come back here and tell me about the recent monoculture.

I didn't explain myself very well or at any length, but the physical interface between Europe and the Arab World (Turkey/North Africa) was always going to mean that we are more accustomed to, and therefore less afraid of Arabic culture. I'm not claiming that Americans are somehow naturally racist toward Arabs; just that Islam fits nicely into the bogeyman spot left open by the decline of the USSR. I think that was made clear by the second paragraph of my post (which you ignored)

This is a joke. The Europeans historically were deathly afraid of Arabs. That's why there were all those wars fought to push them out of Europe -- especially the Balkans, and modern day Spain. Spain isn't an example of Europeans and Arabs living side by side in harmony. It's an example of Europeans and Arabs fighting one another over a piece of territory they both claimed as their own. When the Moors were pushed out of Spain, they were pushed out totally. They are just now in recent years coming back to the lands they lost in the Reconquista. See here.

No wonder you have such odd views about politics. You don't even understand your own continent's history.

And by the way, at no time in all of the decades of the Troubles did you ever lose 3000 lives in one day. In fact, according to this, the total numbers killed by violence in Northern Ireland from 1969 to 2002 was 3347. Or including all killed anywhere in Europe 3688. In other words, in 33 years the Troubles killed just slightly more than the US lost in the space of an hour. You have never suffered that intensity of killing. Your history of terrorism at its worst was small scale stuff, Dramatic, but it didn't kill that many people. Even places like Belfast never came close to being as dangerous as, say, Detroit.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
I guess you've never heard of the term "gestarbeiter". That started very soon after WWII.

No it didn't. It started (and only in Germany) in the the mid to late 1950s, with most arriving in the 1960s. Link in German It's also not a very good example of how tolerant Europeans are because the Gastarbeiten were treated very badly, and until recently, were denied German citizenship even if they were born in Germany.

[TETENAL]

You are right on the history of Spain.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
And by the way, at no time in all of the decades of the Troubles did you ever lose 3000 lives in one day.

Magdeburg 1631-05-20: 25.000 Magdeburger citizens slaughtered. Only 5.000 survive.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
You are right on the history of Spain.


Magdeburg 1631-05-20: 25.000 Magdeburger citizens slaughtered. Only 5.000 survive.

Magdeburg isn't in Ireland. The comparison was between the numbers killed in terrorism as experienced in Europe (specifically the Irish Troubles) with those killed in an hour on 9/11. It's just not comparable.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
It's just not comparable.

It is comparable to Ireland because it was a catholic�protestant conflict. It can also be considered terrorism since the whole population of Magdeburg including women and children was annihilated.

Your experience with 9/11 is not unique. I know you are a believer in American exceptionalism so this might be hard for you to accept.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Maybe in Holand, but our buddies up north and our snooty "allies" in Europe are still�

asleep.

Nooo, you might have remembered that on 9/11 when they didn't know how many planes were being hijacked and smashed into buildings Canada allowed all airborn flights to land in Toronto and other Canadian places. They is rather nice as they allowed it immediately and didn't know if they would become a target in the process.

Not to mention Canadians have been helping in Afghanistan since the beginning and even been killed by other Americans by accident. Canada didn't want to participate in Iraq because they didn't believe there were weapons of mass destruction. Turns out Canada was right.

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
This is a joke. The Europeans historically were deathly afraid of Arabs. That's why there were all those wars fought to push them out of Europe -- especially the Balkans, and modern day Spain. Spain isn't an example of Europeans and Arabs living side by side in harmony. It's an example of Europeans and Arabs fighting one another over a piece of territory they both claimed as their own. When the Moors were pushed out of Spain, they were pushed out totally. They are just now in recent years coming back to the lands they lost in the Reconquista. See here.

Blah blah. So what? I was responding to your claim that "Europe was until very recently monocultural." Clearly that's nonsense.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Your history of terrorism at its worst was small scale stuff, Dramatic, but it didn't kill that many people. Even places like Belfast never came close to being as dangerous as, say, Detroit.

I think you're understating the impact a century of sectarian killing and torture has an a comparitively small community such as Ireland (as compared to one, big attack). But whatever. You're the one that started the 'my terrists are the baddest' contest, you're welcome to it!

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No wonder you have such odd views about politics. You don't even understand your own continent's history.

[nath]

For anyone interested, there is a slightly more detailed explanation of Europe's shared history with Islam here

"The relationship between Islam and Europe goes back centuries. Islam and Europe have both constantly made and re-made each other in spite of the blood that has been shed on both sides. From the European renaissance onwards Islam has been an integral, vivid part of Europe and Britain. Muslim intellectuals gave back to Europe the ideas of the Greeks which the dark ages had buried. Their own discoveries in maths, science, sociology, astronomy and medicine infiltrated European cultures and studies. Kipling�s irreconcilable East and West is and always was an absurdity. The croissant, the crescent shaped bread roll, eaten everyday for breakfast in Europe, is a symbol of the Crusades. Painted blue tiles and geometric design, coffee houses, the beauteous domes in Florence and Venice - and the Brighton Pavilion - factories, modern technology, the film industry in Muslim countries, countless other ideas have flowered and travelled between Christians and Muslims."
...

[Tarambana]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:


[snip] Spain isn't an example of Europeans and Arabs living side by side in harmony. It's an example of Europeans and Arabs fighting one another over a piece of territory they both claimed as their own. When the Moors were pushed out of Spain, they were pushed out totally. They are just now in recent years coming back to the lands they lost in the Reconquista. See here.

[snip]

Total nonsense. This is what amazes me most of this fora. Some people keep on talking about things they obviously have no idea about.

Spain is an example of the peninsular kingdoms and its people (using the term "european" in this sense is stupid at best) living side by side with muslims, in peace. Both during the control of the Penisula by the tribes from the North of Africa (bereberes, mostly) and after the end of "Reconquista" which lead to regain all those territories for the christianty.

In fact, the fight for the piece of territory you refer to, had began long before. Spain is formed through a pendular process in which our cultural identity is the result of periferic tendencies and powers (mostly the "Corona de Arag�n") that struggle against central ones (mostly "Castilla"). So the fights were meant to keep control of our own territory long before there was anything to be called "Spain". It would still take many years since the beginning of those fights for the muslims to even get interested.

Anyway. I have got a quote you might find interesting. This is what Ferr�n Soldevila said in his "History of Spain" (probably the last thorough scholar piece that covers the whole spanish history) in page 400 (I'll write it both in spanish and english [translation by me] for your commodity).

�(�) No quedaba ya, puede decirse, sino Granada y Boabdil el Chico para defenderla. Comprendiendo las dificultades que, a pesar de todo, ten�� que suscitar la impugnaci�n, se construy� una ciudad, Santa Fe, a poca distancia de la capital, para que sirviese de base a las operaciones. Y all�, al cabo de un a�o y medio de lucha, en que las gestas guerreras y caballerescas abundaron a partes iguales, fue firmada la capitulaci�n. Condiciones muy generosas se aseguraban a los vencidos, que pod�an permanecer en el pa�s con su religi�n, bienes, costumbres, leyes y magistrados. (�)�

[Translation] �(�) There was nothing more left but Granada and Boabdil the Kid to defend it. Because of the difitulties to take it, a city, Santa Fe, was built short from the capital, so that it would work an operational headquarter. And there, after year and a half of fight, in which both the warrior gests and chivalry achievements were euqally present on both sides, the capitulation was signed. Very generous conditions were given to the defeated, who could stay in teh country with their religion, goods and land, customs, laws, and magistrates. (�) � [/Translation]

Look! Even their own magistrates. Many of them did in fact stay and enriched both our culture, language and arts.


In case you might want to educate yourself, though I doubt you have any interest (at least seeing the link you used to back your claim here), I'd advice you to get hold of a little, but beautiful book by Garrido Atienza, called "Las capitulaciones para la entrega de Granda", which presents many documents and legal information regarding how those capitulations were set forth, and the conditions under which muslims had to live afterwards in Spain.

[nath]

Originally posted by Tarambana:

In case you might want to educate yourself, though I doubt you have any interest (at least seeing the link you used to back your claim here), I'd advice you to get hold of a little, but beautiful book by Garrido Atienza, called "Las capitulaciones para la entrega de Granda", which presents many documents and legal information regarding how those capitulations were set forth, and the conditions under which muslims had to live afterwards in Spain.

Can't speak for Simey but I would certainly like to educate myself about Spain!

But I can only find this book by the author on Amazon UK - do you know if he has an English language publisher?

[Tarambana]

Originally posted by nath:
Can't speak for Simey but I would certainly like to educate myself about Spain!

But I can only find this book by the author on Amazon UK - do you know if he has an English language publisher?

Nope. Sorry. Most of my countrymen's books, I have them in spanish. Anyway, the reference I gave Slimey was very limited in scope (I know he has somelegal background, and wanted to give him a reference he could best use).

Let me check, because the hardest part is finding books with english editions.

Whoa. There are zero editions in Amazon of most major books by spanish historians. Anyway, if you haven't read it, check this one . It is "A brief history of Spain", written by Pierre Vilar. Quite good, and concise. I guess it is a good introduction to our history.

Also, though it is literature, Cervante's "Exemplary novels"
here and here will also give you a quite good idea of the customs back in a similar timeframe of the Reconquista.

All in all, I'd advice you to go to the "Cervante's Institute" (there are many all over the world, in NY, Alburquerque, Berlin, Paris, London, etc.) and ask them to give you guidance.


Cheers.

[Edited for typos]

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
Total nonsense. This is what amazes me most of this fora. Some people keep on talking about things they obviously have no idea about.

Spain is an example of the peninsular kingdoms and its people (using the term "european" in this sense is stupid at best) living side by side with muslims, in peace. Both during the control of the Penisula by the tribes from the North of Africa (bereberes, mostly) and after the end of "Reconquista" which lead to regain all those territories for the christianty.

In fact, the fight for the piece of territory you refer to, had began long before. Spain is formed through a pendular process in which our cultural identity is the result of periferic tendencies and powers (mostly the "Corona de Arag�n") that struggle against central ones (mostly "Castilla"). So the fights were meant to keep control of our own territory long before there was anything to be called "Spain". It would still take many years since the beginning of those fights for the muslims to even get interested.

Anyway. I have got a quote you might find interesting. This is what Ferr�n Soldevila said in his "History of Spain" (probably the last thorough scholar piece that covers the whole spanish history) in page 400 (I'll write it both in spanish and english [translation by me] for your commodity).

�(�) No quedaba ya, puede decirse, sino Granada y Boabdil el Chico para defenderla. Comprendiendo las dificultades que, a pesar de todo, ten�� que suscitar la impugnaci�n, se construy� una ciudad, Santa Fe, a poca distancia de la capital, para que sirviese de base a las operaciones. Y all�, al cabo de un a�o y medio de lucha, en que las gestas guerreras y caballerescas abundaron a partes iguales, fue firmada la capitulaci�n. Condiciones muy generosas se aseguraban a los vencidos, que pod�an permanecer en el pa�s con su religi�n, bienes, costumbres, leyes y magistrados. (�)�

[Translation] �(�) There was nothing more left but Granada and Boabdil the Kid to defend it. Because of the difitulties to take it, a city, Santa Fe, was built short from the capital, so that it would work an operational headquarter. And there, after year and a half of fight, in which both the warrior gests and chivalry achievements were euqally present on both sides, the capitulation was signed. Very generous conditions were given to the defeated, who could stay in teh country with their religion, goods and land, customs, laws, and magistrates. (�) � [/Translation]

Look! Even their own magistrates. Many of them did in fact stay and enriched both our culture, language and arts.


In case you might want to educate yourself, though I doubt you have any interest (at least seeing the link you used to back your claim here), I'd advice you to get hold of a little, but beautiful book by Garrido Atienza, called "Las capitulaciones para la entrega de Granda", which presents many documents and legal information regarding how those capitulations were set forth, and the conditions under which muslims had to live afterwards in Spain.

Out of curiosity, how many practicing Moslems were living in Spain in, say, 1800. Or 1900?

Hm?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by nath:
Blah blah. So what? I was responding to your claim that "Europe was until very recently monocultural." Clearly that's nonsense.[/img]

Clearly it is accurate. Immigration is a relatively new phenomenon in Europe. Certainly as compared to a country such as the US.

[nath]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
Nope. Sorry. Most of my countrymen's books, I have them in spanish. Anyway, the reference I gave Slimey was very limited in scope (I know he has somelegal background, and wanted to give him a reference he could best use).

Let me check, because the hardest part is finding books with english editions.

Whoa. There are zero editions in Amazon of most major books by spanish historians. Anyway, if you haven't read it, check this one . It is "A brief history of Spain", written by Pierre Vilar. Quite good, and concise. I guess it is a good introduction to our history.

Also, though it is literature, Cervante's "Exemplary novels"
here and here will also give you a quite good idea of the customs back in a similar timeframe of the Reconquista.

All in all, I'd advice you to go to the "Cervante's Institute" (there are many all over the world, in NY, Alburquerque, Berlin, Paris, London, etc.) and ask them to give you guidance.


Cheers.

[Edited for typos]

Thanks, I'll check that out. I spoke for the first time in a long time yesterday to some friends in Navarra. They didn't know I'm getting married and today I got an email from DHL saying they had sent me a crate of Rioja!

[Tarambana]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Out of curiosity, how many practicing Moslems were living in Spain in, say, 1800. Or 1900?

Hm?

Ok. I'll tell you this only once. Real Life gets preference over these fora, at least for me. Therefore I am in no way going to educate you. I told you to do so by yourself. I'll nevertheless answer this post and then let you go, as you seem to have some preconcieved ideas you just want to argue.

1st. and foremost.� There weren't census back in the XVIIth and XVIIIth century and very limited in the XIXth. I am sorry but I am not going to give you data so close as of 1900, though it is far more reliable, because your comment, which I quoted before, was referring to a supposed expulsion of muslims (FYI, we expelled the jews, not the muslims) back when the "Reconquista" took place. You should stick to your argument and not try to divert it. In my country many things happened between 1492 and 1900 and certainly the muslims conditions had changed by the XXth century.

Anyway, as I was saying there are almost no records and most of them are not factual. Bernal D�az del Castillo said referring to some of those census that �It was the same to put twenty or twenty thousand� (�Tanto le dio poner veinte como veinte mil.�). So, and this is important, no data I might give you has relevance whatsoever.

2nd.� If you really want to talk about their situation then in the XIXth. and XXth. century, many precisions should be made. I'll let you do them, in hopes that it leads to a better understanding of our history. But let me tell you that since 1812 and until 1978 (both in your given range), muslims and foreigners in general went through many different situations, just as our contry faced nine different Constitutions and many more different governments and policies. It would be great to be able to summarize it, but there are many nuances and it is a very complex matter to explain.

Now, if you should tell me exactly under which period, what government, or what policies you would like to be enlightened about, I'd gladly give you data regarding practicing muslims in Spain. But bear in mind: there were even times when they could practice freedom of religion with far greater liberty than in any other country back then or now.

Also, if the data is so relevant for you, it is also important to remember that most of those muslims were already fully integrated in Spain society by 1800 or 1900.

3rd.� Regarding the great number of muslims the first thing to understand is that in Spain there were two type of muslims after the reconquista: the moors ("moros") that were mostly captives of war, and slaves, and the free moors ("moriscos") that were the muslims who had stayed in Spain after the rendition of Granada, and that had as I already explained the same rights tha natural born citizens. They were (the "moriscos") mostly dedicated to agriculture but there were also many artisans.

So, I won't give you a number (which would be misleading: either by excess or by defect) but I will quote you M. Herrero Garc�a on when he said: �Hoy cuesta creer que en una �poca de hostilidades tan rotas entre el catolicismo espa�ol y el mahometismo, anduviesen moros por Madrid; y sin embargo, los documentos hablan de un modo que hay que rendirse a la evidencia.� [�It's hard nowadays to understand that with such grave hostilities between spanish catolocism and mahometism, there were free moors walking by Madrid; and notwithoutstanding, the documents speak undoubtedly in that way.�].


All and every single respected scholar knows that muslims were able to live side by side with our ultra-catholic kings and for most part of our history to little or no problem at all. Many more arouse with the jews (only because they had far more power and properties), in fact. After all, as I already pointed, our country is formed through inclusion of different people through history. That's why it took us so long to gain identity as a nation.

[nath]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Clearly it is accurate. Immigration is a relatively new phenomenon in Europe.

Oh come on, if you're not going to even make an effort then what's the point?

Your statement was "Europe was until very recently monocultural", not "Immigration is a relatively new phenomenon in Europe". Tarambana's posts and the EPC article I linked to above prove that first statement to be blatantly untrue.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
If you can spot the difference between an Irish family and an English family without their opening their mouths...

oh, right, you can always spot the english by their bad teeth.

okay, not exactly 'worlds of difference', but you were making pretty general claims.

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Oh, and I'd like to see how you think politics doesn't incorporate human rights laws and political correctness. Seriously.

you're right. i should have written 'politics such as embargos, blind support of nations etc.' again, i don't think any al quaida member or terrorist has actually been 'motivated' by political correctness or human rights 'laws'. imperialism, economics and especially racism have.

[Tarambana]

Originally posted by nath:
� I'm getting married �

OT.: Congratulations!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
Ok. I'll tell you this only once. Real Life gets preference over these fora, at least for me. Therefore I am in no way going to educate you. I told you to do so by yourself. I'll nevertheless answer this post and then let you go, as you seem to have some preconcieved ideas you just want to argue.

Ok tough guy. Speak to the thread topic, now. Do you think Western Europe is finally waking up?

You'll ask me, "waking up to what?"

To terrorism. You'll say there was already a cognizance.

To the threat of Islamic terrorism. You'll repeat the previous assertion.

Then we get closer to the real question.

Can Islam peacefully integrate into non-Islamic societies at this point in time?

Was it only a matter of time and numbers before problems arose?

Does a critical mass number of minorities (in this case, mulims) lead to a reaction from the majority?

Once this hypothetical critical mass number is reached is an 'explosion' inevitable?

Is there something ALL western-type societies have in common that make them 'poisonous to Islamic culture?

Vice versa?

These questions are not just for Tarambana.

Jump in if you have something to contribute.

[Tarambana]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Ok tough guy. Speak to the thread topic, now.

[snip]

I am not interested on the topic at hand and I think I lack the necessary knowledge to talk about it thoroughly. That's why I didn't participate. And the same reason I am not going to participate either now (though I'd like to have a better answer, or a more polite one FTM): because I lack the necessary background to give a good enough answer.

I'd really like to give you some analysis about the situation of foreigners in Europe (not only muslims), but I can't. I think "Europe" is still a gross generalization (too little is done in terms of security in the EU, as most of it is done differently for each and every country) and I fear voicing an opinion which isn't well enough backed.

If you only wanted to know my personal opinion, I'd say we (not only the EU, but the US also) don't know how to deal with these new forms of terrorism. It is true that most terrorism (that I know of) in Europe has been inbred. We are not used to fighting terrorists coming from abroad. I don't know if we are awaking, and I even doubt that weaking up (in the sense of realizing of optimal ways of dealing with new forms of terrorism) at this point would help us either. I think the present situation is very much an offspring of colonialism (european and american) and that we are harvesting its sour fruit.

But my personal opinion, except if I can back it up with thorough knowledge and data is as worth as anyone else's; which is why I don't usually give it.


Cheers.


BTW, there is no sarcasm in what I wrote. I know a lot about my own country's history (just as I guess you do about your own) and dislike hearing half-truths and myths repeated all over again. But I know very little about the topic at hand I am sure this matters surpass my knowledge or understanding. That's why I'll let other debate them, expecting that they will know more than I do.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
I am not interested on the topic at hand and I think I lack the necessary knowledge to talk about it thoroughly. That's why I didn't participate. And the same reason I am not going to participate either now (though I'd like to have a better answer, or a more polite one FTM): because I lack the necessary background to give a good enough answer.

I'd really like to give you some analysis about the situation of foreigners in Europe (not only muslims), but I can't. I think "Europe" is still a gross generalization (too little is done in terms of security in the EU, as most of it is done differently for each and every country) and I fear voicing an opinion which isn't well enough backed.

If you only wanted to know my personal opinion, I'd say we (not only the EU, but the US also) don't know how to deal with these new forms of terrorism. It is true that most terrorism (that I know of) in Europe has been inbred. We are not used to fighting terrorists coming from abroad. I don't know if we are awaking, and I even doubt that weaking up (in the sense of realizing of optimal ways of dealing with new forms of terrorism) at this point would help us either. I think the present situation is very much an offspring of colonialism (european and american) and that we are harvesting its sour fruit.

But my personal opinion, except if I can back it up with thorough knowledge and data is as worth as anyone else's; which is why I don't usually give it.


Cheers.


BTW, there is no sarcasm in what I wrote. I know a lot about my own country's history (just as I guess you do about your own) and dislike hearing half-truths and myths repeated all over again. But I know very little about the topic at hand I am sure this matters surpass my knowledge or understanding. That's why I'll let other debate them, expecting that they will know more than I do.

Thank you for your reply.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
And it looks like you forgot some of those "other" attacks by nationalists in the 70's.

Stop acting like a hawk. It's sad how you guys politicize national security and take every opportunity given for partisan attacks on Bush. Your side lives off of the hope of America's destruction.

ROFL!!!!