[Eug]

How fast are the new GPUs? I'm esp. interested in benches of the 9400M if you can find some.

[mduell]

Do we know what Apple means when they say "9400M"? It appears to be a custom chipset.

Per nVidia, when you combine the GeForce 9100M G chipset (with integrated GPU) and a GeForce 9200M GS or GeForce 9300M GS discrete GPU, you have a GeForce 9400M.
Obviously Apple means something different when they say 9400M since they have a single chip solution and they don't appear to support Hybrid SLI (which GeForce 9400M uses between the GPU in the 9100 and the 9200/9300).
It may be that the 9400M in the MB/MBP is the same as 9100M G + 9300M GS (minus the 9100's integrated GPU) while the 9400M in the MBA is the same as 9100M G + 9200M GS (again, minus the 9100's integrated GPU), since Apple shows the Air being only 4x as fast as Intel graphics instead of 5x. Or they may be using the same chip in all 3 and just tweaking the clockrates.

[Eug]

OK, we don't actually know what 9400M is. But... Any guesstimates on the effects for Snow Leopard?

I just ordered the X3100 MacBook, but wonder how much faster Snow Leopard might run on a 9400M. My guess it will be a bonus, but the X3100 will run just fine, even if Blu-ray support were to be added.

If worse comes to worst, I could always just sell the X3100 MacBook next year when Snow Leopard lands, but I don't think that'd be necessary.

[Simon]

We don't know yet, because NVIDIA hasn't officially launched the MCP79 platform yet. In a short while we'll know more.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug 

OK, we don't actually know what 9400M is. But... Any guesstimates on the effects for Snow Leopard?

Well, we do, for the most part: it is based on the 9500M G (not GS or GT) and has 16 shaders. Since the memory interface is slower than with a dedicated graphics chip with its own memory (there are indeed dedicated gpus which still use the RAM), it shouldn't be quite as fast. The 9500M G is the part which covers the lower middle class and should be fast enough for most things, except graphics-intensive games and special apps.

I very much like the idea that I can choose which chip to use (i. e. I can extend my battery life if I don't need the fast gpu anyway). I'm not sure whether nVidia's new chipset supports asymmetric/hybrid SLI (essentially this allows you to use both gpus simultaneously to boost performance -- which should be relevant for Snow Leopard).

[Simon]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I very much like the idea that I can choose which chip to use (i. e. I can extend my battery life if I don't need the fast gpu anyway). I'm not sure whether nVidia's new chipset supports asymmetric/hybrid SLI (essentially this allows you to use both gpus simultaneously to boost performance -- which should be relevant for Snow Leopard).

Nope. Right now, it's not at all very elegant actually. You use one GPU at a time. You have to switch manually. And logging out and back in is required.

There's a video clip of the whole process here.

[OreoCookie]

Damn. I thought it was more elegant. I thought it is supposed to switch automatically when you disconnect or reconnect the power adapter …

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Damn. I thought it was more elegant. I thought it is supposed to switch automatically when you disconnect or reconnect the power adapter …

That was how they made it sound, but nope.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Damn. I thought it was more elegant. I thought it is supposed to switch automatically when you disconnect or reconnect the power adapter …

That's what I was hoping as well.

Oh well, these things could still change. It's all brand new right now. I guess drivers and OS support will improve with future updates.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Oh well, these things could still change. It's all brand new right now. I guess drivers and OS support will improve with future updates.

Right. It seems to me the window manager needs to be restarted.

[applesbiggestfan]

By the way it's vice-versa not wise versus.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by applesbiggestfan 

By the way it's vice-versa not wise versus.

Are you ok?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by applesbiggestfan 

By the way it's vice-versa not wise versus.

Originally Posted by Simon 

Are you ok?

He posted in the wrong thread.

[hadocon]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Are you ok?

Check the other thread, it's hilarious. Mental boy here needs to better comprehend what he reads.

In short - no, he's not ok.

[mduell]

It appears they're using nVidia GeForce 9400M G in the new laptops rather than nVidia GeForce 9400M. I'm not surprised SJobs and Apple.com glossed over that detail.

[Simon]

They launched it officially.

NVIDIA 9400M G Motherboard GPU

On the MB it's Penryn (top right, P8600 in this case) and the MPC79MX-BT2 (bottom left). The latter is the NVIDIA integrated graphics (9400M) and controller.


On the MBP it's Penryn (top, P8600 in this case), again the MPC79MX-BT2 (middle), and the G96-632-C1 (bottom). The latter is the dedicated NVIDIA 9600M GPU.


Looking at those pics (the other sides of the boards are just as crammed) it's clear they couldn't fit a dedicated GPU into the MB the way they did on the MBP.

[Big Mac]

Well, at least now there's a clear reason why the dropped Firewire from the MB - there's no room for an extra port on that board, while there is room to spare on the MBP board.

[Simon]

Q: Does the Apple Macbook Pro (Late 2008) support NVIDIA's Hybrid SLI® technology?

A: No.
...
You can switch between the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU (called energy saver mode) and the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU (called performance mode), but you cannot use both GPU's at once in this implementation.
...
Apple's hybrid graphics technology is supported under the MacOS X operating system version 10.5.6 and higher only. When running Microsoft's Windows XP™ or Microsoft's Windows Vista™ using Apple's Boot Camp, the system locks into performance mode which uses the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU for all graphics related tasks and can not be changed to use the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU for low power mode.

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/n...p?p_faqid=2243

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

How fast are the new GPUs? I'm esp. interested in benches of the 9400M if you can find some.

I'm guessing you need a good GPU for your vast game library and that is why you ordered the low end macbook with an even worse video card?

[Super Mario]

Paired with the same CPU, the Geforce 9400M is about the same speed as the Radeon X1600 that used to ship in the first MacBook Pros two years ago.

[markponcelet]

Originally Posted by Simon 

When running Microsoft's Windows XP™ or Microsoft's Windows Vista™ using Apple's Boot Camp, the system locks into performance mode which uses the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU for all graphics related tasks and can not be changed to use the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU for low power mode.

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/n...p?p_faqid=2243

Thank you for this. I read a review of the new Macbook Pros just last night that indicated that whatever mode you were in when you booted from Mac OS into bootcamp, that's the mode you'd be in when Windows booted up. I think I actually prefer a performance-only approach, since I don't want to reboot into Windows only to have to reboot again because I'm not in the mode I want to be in. At least this way is consistent.

[olePigeon]

I'm waiting for the 2nd gen version of these, hopefully with Firewire on the Macbook and the ability to toggle the video card without logging out.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I'm guessing you need a good GPU for your vast game library and that is why you ordered the low end macbook with an even worse video card?

As usual you're completely off base. Your post doesn't even make sense. I know what my needs are, which is why I bought a much cheaper machine with a faster CPU and FireWire.

I just want to know about the nvidia stuff, cuz I personally like expanding my knowledge. I guess you just prefer to be ignorant about these things.

BTW this type of knowledge would also be useful for those running Aperture, Motion, and CS4.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I'm waiting for the 2nd gen version of these, hopefully with Firewire on the Macbook and the ability to toggle the video card without logging out.

There's no reason to toggle the video card on the MacBook because there is only one
and I think waiting for FW in the MB is hopeless. Based on this Steve Jobs quote at ars "The Steve just had this to say: "Actually, all of the new HD camcorders of the past few years use USB 2."

Add in the fact that the MBs are geared and marketed towards consumers who clearly have little need of FW means that there's almost no chance of seeing a reappearance of the firewire ports on the Macbook

[Eug]

Yeah FW is dead on the Macbook. However, I'm waiting for:

1) Price drop on the unibody MacBook. They effectively raised pricing on the line but then compensated for it dropping prices on whitebooks. Ironically, the whitebook has a faster CPU, a bigger battery, and FireWire.

2) Backlit keyboard on all unibody models.

3) Lower memory prices. 4 GB DDR2 is way cheaper than 4 GB DDR3.

I often will keep a laptop only 1-2 years anyway. I don't think 3 year Applecare is worth it for MacBooks. I'd rather just sell a recent model laptop while the resale value is still good and use the cash for a new laptop with new warranty. For example I just sold a Core Duo MacBook for $750, knowing new MacBooks were coming.

[MartiNZ]

Interesting that point 2). Most of the complaints around have been about the loss of -options-. I like having the option of non-backlit keyboard; I find it most unnecessary and the pics don't make it look so great with the chiclet keyboard (spillover and such), and the recent mess Apple has made of the F-key lineup means that if you have a backlit keyboard there is no room for one-key 'show desktop' / 'app windows' exposé features.

For interest, does no backlit keyboard also mean no ambient light sensors, and no auto brightness-change? That would also be nicer than the annoying hands over speakers = screen goes dark of the old MBP.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I'm waiting for the 2nd gen version of these, hopefully with Firewire on the Macbook...

Not gonna happen.



Unless they make it a 14" MB or reduce the battery by 50% or something crazy like that.

...and the ability to toggle the video card without logging out.

That could probably be done in software. Maybe a future OS update will make that possible. The suspicion right now is that the window manager needs to be restarted and hence the reboot. If Apple would make it possible to restart the WM on the fly that just might become possible.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

They effectively raised pricing on the line but then compensated for it dropping prices on whitebooks. Ironically, the whitebook has a faster CPU, a bigger battery, and FireWire.

I don't think that's ironic actually.

Despite the CPU clock the overall performance of the new MBs will be better. The chipset FSB and the GPU will easily make up for the CPU clock in consumer applications.

The battery has a lower capacity (45Wh vs. 55Wh), but that doesn't mean less battery life. The power draw has also been reduced (CPU, chipset, LED backlight) and that could very well make up for it. Actually Apple now uses their "wireless productivity time rating" on the MB and gives it 5h. If that's correct (and it should roughly be compared to the old rating) the new MBs offer at least as much battery life than the ones they replace (the old ones were rated at 6h of theoretical battery life with everything switched off while idling). And keep in mind that lower power draw and smaller battery is always better thna the other way around. It's lighter. That's why you're seeing this nice weight reduction on the new MB.

And finally the FW port isn't ironic either. Apple has declared it a legacy port and the white MB is the legacy MB. Fits fine.

Unless somebody absolutely needs FireWire I see no reason not to chose an Al MB over a plastic one.

[Simon]

My guess is that KB backlighting will come to the $1299 MB the next time around. The present $1299 model will become the entry-level model at $1099 while the $1299 and $1499 models will be updated versions of what we have now. Right now Apple is just trying to protect their margins and hence the white MB at $999. With dropping component cost they will probably be able to trickle down the new Al features to the low-end MB when rev B is released early next summer.

[FourOhFour]

Originally Posted by MartiNZ 

For interest, does no backlit keyboard also mean no ambient light sensors, and no auto brightness-change? That would also be nicer than the annoying hands over speakers = screen goes dark of the old MBP.

The new MacBook does have the ambient light sensor, even without the keyboard. It looks like it is to the left of the iSight.

The automatic brightness control can be disabled... just like my old PBG4.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I don't think that's ironic actually.

Despite the CPU clock the overall performance of the new MBs will be better. The chipset FSB and the GPU will easily make up for the CPU clock in consumer applications.

The battery has a lower capacity (45Wh vs. 55Wh), but that doesn't mean less battery life. The power draw has also been reduced (CPU, chipset, LED backlight) and that could very well make up for it. Actually Apple now uses their "wireless productivity time rating" on the MB and gives it 5h. If that's correct (and it should roughly be compared to the old rating) the new MBs offer at least as much battery life than the ones they replace (the old ones were rated at 6h of theoretical battery life with everything switched off while idling). And keep in mind that lower power draw and smaller battery is always better thna the other way around. It's lighter. That's why you're seeing this nice weight reduction on the new MB.

And finally the FW port isn't ironic either. Apple has declared it a legacy port and the white MB is the legacy MB. Fits fine.

Unless somebody absolutely needs FireWire I see no reason not to chose an Al MB over a plastic one.

Macworld has posted benches. I can't post the link because I have no cut and paste on the iPhone.

As expected, the aluminum totally spanks the white in gaming. However, as also expected (by some of us at least), the 2.1 GHz whitebook beats the 2.0 GHz alumacbook in most (but not all) of the other tests.

Personally I think for most (but again not all) purchasers on a budget, getting a whitebook is a no-brainer, precisely because it is so much cheaper. And that's not even including the fact that DDR2 is way, way cheaper than DDR3. If you have any interest in having that much memory (like if you're running Parallels, VMWare, or even Photoshop) that could be a major consideration. I just priced out 4 GB RAM locally. For the brand I got, it was $60 for the whitebook and $220 for the alumacbook.

[Eug]

If you get a custom order, Apple Canada only charges $150 for the 4 GB DDR3 upgrade. However that's still a lot more than $60.

I think once Apple drops the unibody MacBook price and adds the backlit keyboard, then it will be easier to recommend the low end unibody to most people.

Like Simon I think that might come as early as the next refresh. If it also is combined with the edu free iPod deal then that would be awesome. If so, I'd buy one.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The power draw has also been reduced (CPU, chipset, LED backlight) and that could very well make up for it.

What's the TDP for the new chipset?

[P]

Originally Posted by mduell 

It appears they're using nVidia GeForce 9400M G in the new laptops rather than nVidia GeForce 9400M. I'm not surprised SJobs and Apple.com glossed over that detail.

??? Those are different? There is only one 9400M version linked from here.

It seems the 9400M will be about as fast as the 8400 GS, which should be similar to the 9600. Radeon 9600 Pro, that is.

[PaperNotes]

The 9400 will play some of the newer games but you will have to reduce to 800x600 resolution if you want anything between medium to high details.

[Lava Lamp Freak]

I currently have the 2.4 iMac introduced a year ago and want to replace it with the new 2.4 MBP and 24" LED Cinema Display. How does the 9600M GT in the MBP compare to the Radeon HD 2600 Pro in my iMac? Would the new setup with the 24" display be at least equal to what I have now? How would it compare to the 8800 GS in the current iMac? The only game I play is WoW so I guess my main concern is not loosing performance in WoW.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by P 

??? Those are different? There is only one 9400M version linked from here.

This is the page describing the 9400M G single-chip chipset/GPU combination.
This is the page describing the 9400M two-chip chipset/GPU combination.

Apple is using the former and calling it the 9400M.

[P]

Ah, thank you. nVidia marketing is hitting new confusing lows.

As far as I can see, the 9300M GS (the faster of the two discrete GPUs on your page) has the same number of shader processors (16) and is clocked at the same frequency (580 MHz core, 1400 MHz shaders) as the 9400M G that Apple is using. The difference is that the 9300M GS uses a dedicated 64-bit, 1200 MHz (effective) memory bus, while the 9400M G gets to share the 128-bit 1066 MHz (effective) bus with the CPU. The performance should be similar, which may be what nVidia is implying with its moronic product names. Of course, "Geforce Boost" might add a few frames, but it can't be too many.

[Simon]

The new 9400M G chipset has a 15% lower TDP than the previously used Crestline w/ X3100.