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Robe · Jan 11, 2003, 07:52 AM

I was in the market to buy the new (now old!) Tibook w/superdrive. Based on the new models, is this still a good value?

MickS · Jan 11, 2003, 08:03 AM

I would if I had the cash. Looking at the 17" AlBook it's too big for portable use IMO.

icruise · Jan 11, 2003, 09:05 AM

The 15" models have no Airport Extreme (although you can get a PC card for this) and no Firewire 800 (not a huge deal right now). I imagine the updated version will also have the backlit keyboard, although it's hard to know for sure.

The only thing I would be really concerned about is the case, with its potential paint problems. However, if you like the design and don't think that those missing features are a big deal, they are pretty good deal with the price reductions. I just think that they will be even better when they are updated.

issa · 12:20 PM

I wouldn't hesitate a nanosecond to buy a 15.2" GigaBook. Granted, I bought one in November, a fact that may leave me appearing less than completely objective. Anyway, in this user's subjective opinion the 1GHz TiBook has been the best Mac hardware experience in my 17 years of using the Mac platform.

The points Icruise makes in his first sentence are true enough. There's no Airport Extreme. That may be a factor if you are planning to exchange large files between computers over a wireless network. On the other hand, at 11Mbps, the original Airport is still capable of bandwidth in excess of most any current broadband connection. So, if you are looking at Airport primarily as a means for connecting to the Internet, Airport Extreme isn't much of a factor. And, as Icruise writes, Airport Extreme speed will likely become available via a PC card on the chance it does matter; and the GigaBook's PC card slot is equipped to support such a card. There's also no Firewire 800, although the current Firewire 400 readily handles transfer speeds high enough to support most peripherals out there.

As for the paint issue. I don't see starting a thread dedicated to the question, but I wonder if any owners of the 867MHz/1GHz have experienced any paint peeling/delamination. Apple did change the paint process for the latest generation of and I don't recall any owners speak out yet that their GigaBooks were plagued by this. Anybody? Mine's fine so far. For that matter, so is the paint on my almost 2 year old Rev.A TiBook. That's not to say that the problem didn't exist earlier, particularly with the Rev.B and Rev.C units; and it's not to say the painted titanium can't be scratched. Robe, you'll have to use your better judgment on this one.

The 15.2" form factor probably will be better when they are updated, if not at least faster and complete with the features of the 17" model. Of course, we don't know when that will be. My guess is a good 4 - 6 months from now, assuming Apple gives it to us. They'd be crazy to kill the size, so I expect them to release a new version when the time is right, i.e., once they can deliver it with a faster, more efficient CPU and memory bus. We also don't know how well the aluminum enclosure will fair when subjected to daily use, although there is no paint to peel or delaminate. Scratches may be a different issue, though.

[Edit: corrected 67MHz -> 867MHz]

BrunoBruin · Jan 11, 2003, 10:19 AM

If I were buying today, I would still go for the 15. The 17 is too big and too expensive, and the 12 has no DVI out. DVI was the ONE feature I was waiting for before buying my 667.

iDaver · Jan 11, 2003, 11:10 AM

If it were me, I'd wait, for the aluminum skin, the improved hinge, ports on the sides, Airport Extreme, and all of the other little improvements that are bound to come to the medium size model soon. Of course then, the price might go back up. Who knows.

I hate to say it but I think Apple should have waited a few months for introduction of the new PowerBooks, until they were actually available and they could have bumped the features of the 15" at the same time.

ARENA · Jan 11, 2003, 11:29 AM

I would.
In fact, i'm getting either the 867Mhz Ti Book or the Ghz TiBook depending on how much money i'm able to save until the end of the month.
I woulod really love the Ghz, but still if i get the 867 it is a great machine, and quite an update from my current Pismo.

SwarmyCurve · Jan 11, 2003, 11:32 AM

I would wait - why get a current 15" model when you practically know it will be updated soon with the new casing...

Thats not to say it isnt a good laptop already, and it is final / fastest Apple portable that will boot into OS9.

drmbb2 · Jan 11, 2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Robe:
I was in the market to buy the new (now old!) Tibook w/superdrive. Based on the new models, is this still a good value?

Well, this is just my opinion, and I'd qualify it by saying that with the new powerbooks, more than ever before, buyers really need to think about their needs and prospective usage.

The 17" is interesting, but as far as being a true portable laptop, I think it's a step back, towards the luggables of yesteryear (anyone remember those 1st gen. Toshiba 386 "portables" - I loved those, but they were HUGE?). I would not want to carry that thing around much on a daily basis (and I take my TiBook all over the place with me on a weekly basis). As a desktop replacement, where it's moved only occasionaly, it would be a significant consideration, or, for specialized situations where a desktop-capable machine may be necessary at a remote site, etc.

The 12" does make for a nice portable formfactor, but one of the reasons I switched from an original iceBook to a TiBook (currently a rev.b, 667MHz model) was the 12", 1024x768 cramped screen. Yes, it's a superb size for a laptop, but I like the bigger screen of the TiBook (and, sure, I'd love the higher resolution of the rev.C TiBook's, but still, my current machine is much better than the iceBook).

As for build quality, paint issues, etc, I've never had them with my TiBook, so the new case isn't an issue as I can honestly claim, after 15months., mine looks and works as good as new (for me - I understand many recent TiBook owners have had issues). Also, the 802.11g airport isn't useful to me, as the base support where I use my TiBook will be a long time coming (802.11g is NOT a standard yet, and has issues at range, i.e. outside of 50ft or so, it's performance isn't much better than the current standard). BlueTooth might be useful to many people, but not to me, so I can't make an opinion on it - new buyers will need to evaluate that themselves.

And, as a purely opinionated comment, I don't like having the ports on the sides - I found that annoying on my iceBook, like my back panel on my TiBook.

So, for me, I'll be keeping my 667 TiBook for at least 2003, and wait and see what transpires over the next 12 to 18 months. I feel for new buyers though, 3 different confurations to choose from, trying to anticipate support timelines for bluetooth, higher speed wireless (I'm thinking of work places and public access here, not necessarily home use), higher speed firewire - balancing formfacter versus usage, portability, etc. Choice is great, but right now, I'd say I'm glad I bought when I did, and am comfortable for now, and some time to come.

The changes announced with the new macs are merely foreshadowing of major things to come, so I'd hesitate to jump in too early - just MHO

UnixMac · Jan 11, 2003, 01:06 PM

I for once in my life am actually satisfied with what I have, and don't regret not waiting... I like the 17" screen idea, and think that some may indeed need it, but I'm totally satisfied with the 15.2" I have and running the same G4 but with a nicer design (I don't like the Ai's ports on the side!).. I actually wouldn't trade mine for one. This is a new thing for me as I always like the latest and greatest.

Eug · Jan 11, 2003, 01:26 PM

I couldn't take my iBook 600 Rage 128 anymore. I had to buy something. I was thinking the new PowerBooks wouldn't be out until April. I was sorta right, at least for the 15" size. Maybe.

Plus the fact that I can still boot in 9 was a consideration, even though I rarely use it. And what I wanted was a G4 1 GHz and a SuperDrive. Actually, I also wanted a 13" PowerBook and the 12" is very close. But unfortunately it's missing the PCMCIA and DVI. I'm not sure which I would have bought looking back in retrospect. It might have been the 12 or 15" but definitely not the 17"

My next laptop will not be a G4 at all.

CyberPet · Jan 11, 2003, 01:56 PM

I don't regret my 15.2" 1GHz Powerbook, just read the results this guy got when he did benchmark the new machines:

http://www.barefeats.com/pb17.html

The 15.2" sure can hold its own!

SoCal_BigFoot · Jan 11, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
My next laptop will not be a G4 at all.

What will it be?

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 02:00 PM

forget the tiBook...either wait for the 15.4 aluminium version or get the 17 incher....

Why buy old technology???

Eug · Jan 11, 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by SoCal_BigFoot:
What will it be?

I guess I should say it won't be the current G4. It will be whatever Apple puts in the PowerBooks in the next major revision, whether it would be a G4 on steroids (eg. G4+ 7457, at 1.67 GHz) or a PPC970 derivative.

I don't see how they'd get a usable >1 GHz G4 7455 in any laptop. I already have fan loudness issues. A 1.25 GHz G4 7455 would be 5X worse, esp. if they're going to use the more power hungry Geforce4Go 440. Anyways even if they did I wouldn't upgrade for just a 25-30% speed increase unless the price was very attractive.

Tyrion · Jan 11, 2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by hippy3:
forget the tiBook...either wait for the 15.4 aluminium version or get the 17 incher....

Why buy old technology???

where exactly is the technology used in the 15" PB "old"? it has even got a graphics card which is more up-to-date than the one in the 17" PB.

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 03:37 PM

oh gee, you're right...

my mistake sorry !

How exactly are you going to install your airport extreme card?????

In terms of Apple tech, the tiBook is old news.... The Graphics card is a marketing thing...and if you're talking about games performance buy a powerMac...It's a laptop dude...

Tyrion · Jan 11, 2003, 03:46 PM

sheesh, if the radeon9000 is a marketing thing, then what is airport extreme, which brings absolutely no benefit to the normal user? and firewire 800?

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Tyrion:
sheesh, if the radeon9000 is a marketing thing, then what is airport extreme, which brings absolutely no benefit to the normal user? and firewire 800?

Normal user???

do you mean the rich kid who's daddy buys him/her a PB.

As a freelancer my PowerBook is my tool of trade. I use it to make a living, it cannot be powerful enough in my eyes. Try transfering large PSD files using airport. Sure I could connect via the ethernet port but what's the point of being wireless! As for the nVidia/ATI discussions, It's not a games platform, if you want to play Tony Hawk's buy a PS2 !

ima_pseudonym · Jan 11, 2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by hippy3:
oh gee, you're right...

my mistake sorry !

How exactly are you going to install your airport extreme card?????

Try the pc card slot. If there aren't already mac compatible 802.11g pccards, there will be very soon.

Why is it so important to you to convince everyone else that you were right to return your tibooks? Why do you think you to need to argue that the tibook is the worst apple laptop ever, and the 17" book (which nobody has even seen except in prototype) is the best one ever in order to do that? Are you rationalizing, bragging, or trying to compensate for the bashing you dished out back when you thought there was no fan problem?

SwarmyCurve · Jan 11, 2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by hippy3:
oh gee, you're right...

my mistake sorry !

How exactly are you going to install your airport extreme card?????

In terms of Apple tech, the tiBook is old news.... The Graphics card is a marketing thing...and if you're talking about games performance buy a powerMac...It's a laptop dude...

The Radeon 9000 gives great preformance. Its a 64 meg card, afterall. I can get get, stable framerates in all the games I try, even with the highest or next to highest quality settings.

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by SwarmyCurve:
The Radeon 9000 gives great preformance. Its a 64 meg card, afterall. I can get get, stable framerates in all the games I try, even with the highest or next to highest quality settings.

errrrrr o.kay.....thanks for that info! it is relevant because??????

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by ima_pseudonym:
Try the pc card slot. If there aren't already mac compatible 802.11g pccards, there will be very soon.

Why is it so important to you to convince everyone else that you were right to return your tibooks? Why do you think you to need to argue that the tibook is the worst apple laptop ever, and the 17" book (which nobody has even seen except in prototype) is the best one ever in order to do that? Are you rationalizing, bragging, or trying to compensate for the bashing you dished out back when you thought there was no fan problem?

I am right......

I am not telling anyone to replace a tiBook if they are happy with it. I am merely stating an opinion.

Yes originally I convinced myself the constant fan operation was Normal, but the more I read on these forums I am convinced it's a compromise made by apple to stuff a 1ghz G4 into the ti enclosure. If you are happy with that, then cool. I was/AM not. I don't remember saying the tiBook in general was a bad laptop, just it's latest incarnation has some annoying problems that will not be fixed....

Daniel Bayer · Jan 11, 2003, 05:27 PM

Sorry to burst your tiriade mister hippy

No fan problems on my gig-ti.
The fan on my ol' 400 ti is FAR louder...when it does come on.

The Ti-gig and the whole ti line is the best computer ever made. Peer-E ODD!

I am a photojournalist by trade and traveled with the 400MHZ for a year. 3,000 hours, temps of 20-110 degrees in 8 countries. Super heavy use of photoshop 7.0 with batch and droplet use to max out the CPU.

The only problem on the thing was when the paint peeled off the hinge in the heat of Cambodia. That is IT!

The gig ti is solid.

No more than a gig of ram in any powerbookyet

I'll wait thank you... . . . . . . .

Riemann Zeta · Jan 11, 2003, 05:33 PM

I just bought a new TiBook 1GHz Superdrive yesterday. It is amazing. The Radeon 9000 card is fabulous; it is the best mobile video card on the market. Even if one is not a gamer (which judging from all of the animosity and vitriol in this thread directed upon gamers, none are) the Radeon card is far superior to the GeForce for two reasons: 1) power consumption, and 2) DVD playback quality.

PS (to all those with hateful intent directed upon gamers): Not all people who use the 3D features of a video card are "unprofessional."

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Daniel Bayer:
Sorry to burst your tiriade mister hippy

No fan problems on my gig-ti.
The fan on my ol' 400 ti is FAR louder...when it does come on.

The Ti-gig and the whole ti line is the best computer ever made. Peer-E ODD!

I am a photojournalist by trade and traveled with the 400MHZ for a year. 3,000 hours, temps of 20-110 degrees in 8 countries. Super heavy use of photoshop 7.0 with batch and droplet use to max out the CPU.

The only problem on the thing was when the paint peeled off the hinge in the heat of Cambodia. That is IT!

The gig ti is solid.

No more than a gig of ram in any powerbookyet

I'll wait thank you... . . . . . . .

How many times ! ! !

I never said I had a problem with tiBooks in general. I am sure your 400mhz vers performed well. If your 1ghz's fan Doesn't come on then it is behaving differently to anyone else who has posted to this board. I have been reminded on numerous occasions that the fan is designed to be on constantly when plugged in. My point once again is that this only occurs because apple knew the aluminium books were around the corner. OK !!!! or do I have to post it again......

Daniel Bayer · Jan 11, 2003, 06:35 PM

...Then STOP bashing the ti-line in general!!

Just STOP!!!

Find another thing to vent on! You got your money back and will be a "C" tester of the 17 inch version? What more do you want? Especially from us????

Do let us know how the fan situation is with it and how it feels torsionally compared to the ti-book.

If my rig develops a "Fan" issue, then I may have to do something about it.

I guess I just don't understand your abusive "Oh please ban me from the site" attitude.

WE love our powerbooks. They have issues here and there and I am still ticked at Apple's product release cycle as of late but JEEEZ!

Ever heard of Karma? Look that shiny new powerbook over REEEEEEEAL good when you get it, Eh?

I'm going to go do some laps on my snowboard as you sit in front of whatEVER monitor you are looking at and have a life!!

Daniel Bayer · Jan 11, 2003, 06:44 PM

P.S....wanna ride on my board? It might cool off your Powerbutt!!

I know you MUST be doing this for the self entertainment value.......

Shite! the lifts shut down at 4! better get outta here!!

Podolsky · Jan 11, 2003, 07:06 PM

If it were I, and it is because I was just about ready to buy the Gigabook, I would wait a bit for two things, 1. early reports on the sweetness (or lack there of) of of the 17 and, 2. for rumors and dates about an Al 15. On the first point, if the 17 comes in with rave reviews and you get your hands on one and it looks great, I would go for that. If however, you hear it has more than its share of problems and or it truely is too big (which I doubt) for your needs, I would wait or snap up the last iteration of the tiBook - and this one is the last of that we should be clear.......

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Daniel Bayer:
P.S....wanna ride on my board? It might cool off your Powerbutt!!

I know you MUST be doing this for the self entertainment value.......

Shite! the lifts shut down at 4! better get outta here!!

yadda yadda yadda....

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Daniel Bayer:
...Then STOP bashing the ti-line in general!!

Just STOP!!!

how many ****ing times..... I wasn't ! dork

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 08:18 PM

PS (to all those with hateful intent directed upon gamers): Not all people who use the 3D features of a video card are "unprofessional." [/B]

No sure, but are you seriously trying to convince us that the powerbook is a professional 3d platform.....guess you'd better give pixar a call then !

icruise · Jan 11, 2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by hippy3:
how many ****ing times..... I wasn't ! dork

Care to start a pool on how long it takes for hippy4 to come along?

craigthomas · Jan 11, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Tyrion:
sheesh, if the radeon9000 is a marketing thing, then what is airport extreme, which brings absolutely no benefit to the normal user? and firewire 800?

For me there is no benefit to the new powerbooks 802.11g or FW 800. The only benefit to the Airport Extreme is in the new basestation with the antenna output port that could extend signal range. I'm getting one also for the USB printer sharing feature.

The new AluBooks just don't have what I want yet. I'll wait for the Rev B with a speed bump, more ram, faster HDs, and the kinks ironed out that come with the usual rev A. Yes, I'm quite content with my TiSD.

Owlicks · Jan 11, 2003, 08:46 PM

I would order one, in fact I just did and it arrived yesterday

I was in the market for a powerbook, but I wanted to wait and see what came out at Macworld. Flat out, the 15.2 inch is the best value for the money these days. The features on the 17 inch are nice, but not very necessary at the moment. I too was wowed at first, but then I thought about it. The ambient light sensors are neat, but I realized I haven't looked at the keyboard when I type since 6th grade. The 800 mbps firewire would rarely rarely ever be able to reach that peak bandwidth, unless you were transfering huge files. The airport extreme would never reach it's peak unless you were a huge LAN user. The only two selling points for the 17 inch for me would be the DDR and the screen, but those don't justify a $500 price difference for me. Plus, the 15 inch has a better video card. All in all the 15 inch is the best value unless you're totally concerned with asthetics (which I am too, just not $500 concerned

)
-Alex

Daniel Bayer · 08:53 PM

"Care to start a pool on how long it takes for hippy4 to come along?"

Nah, He'll be alright....shoulda' went snowboarding though, it's "Duckin Fumping" out right now.

My ti-'s gonna be lonley tommorow cuz it's a gonna be a POWDER DAY!!!!

To be more on topic, I would get a 17 if:

1. I could stuff more ram in it, regardless of DDR.
2. As long as the thing dosent get the milage of a Ford Excursion.

For the time bieng, I am no hurry to get rid of either of my great ti-books.

...There's a gig-a-book going on ebay with software for about $2,900, 8 mintues left.

Good Ol' Apple marketing and year end sales team, ARGH

craigthomas · Jan 11, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by UnixMac:
I for once in my life am actually satisfied with what I have, and don't regret not waiting... I like the 17" screen idea, and think that some may indeed need it, but I'm totally satisfied with the 15.2" I have and running the same G4 but with a nicer design (I don't like the Ai's ports on the side!).. I actually wouldn't trade mine for one. This is a new thing for me as I always like the latest and greatest.

My feelings exactly UnixMac. This is the 1st PB that I'm content not having. No drool factor. I hope that the next rev gets the ports on the back again.

hippy3 · Jan 11, 2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by craigthomas:
My feelings exactly UnixMac. This is the 1st PB that I'm content not having. No drool factor. I hope that the next rev gets the ports on the back again.

No chance....

MetalArtist · Jan 11, 2003, 10:22 PM

i wanted to sell my tiSD when i heard the announcement and yeah I was pissed the f*ck off since i got it christmas time, but then i thought about it and i not regretful at all now. The DDR ram at this point is more a marketing ploy tahn anything else b/c the bus on the PB doesnt take advantage of 333Mhz ram. I sure its faster, but percieved benefit is much greater than the ACTUAL benefit. The 17' screen and rez is cool inn that id love to have space for my toolboxes especially running Maya (and yeah you can do 3D on this pretty well, but i woldnt suggest it as a primary 3d system, just a supporting one)

Still a 17' screen aint enough for me to get overly excited, and when it comes to real work, id rather have more graphic muscle as opposed to screen real estate.and if im goign for real estate id want major space (like 23 HD he he)

Im sure there will be airport extreme solutions for older pbooks and pmacs shortly from 3rd parties taht wont cost the apple premium.

as for the new cases, well i aint had any trouuble with mine at all, and though the new aluminum may solve problems the titaniums has, im sure they will introduce problems of their own. Such is the way design works. new materials=new challenges. i know some thing about metallurgy and where titanium may suffer from surface quality (hence paint) and flexibity when thin, aluminum may prove to be too rigid (titanium can bend but i wont break, anodized aluminum can crack, granted these are laptops not industrial frameworks so i doubt industrial stress is going to be a factor, unless oprah sits on a powerbook)

ultimately if you a pro graphic artist i think a tibook is sufficient for teh grand majority of needs and has the advatange of a balance of portability and spaciousness. but if you want a 17, hell go for it. They are both rather stunning (tho those grates on the 17 irk me all to hell) For real work id prfer a desktop anyway cause no laptop has the sort of muscle i need for really high end work or renders, but they are great for those ideas you get on the go and for 2D or vid tasks, or design on the fly. Ill hold my remaining cash for a 970 PMac..hopefully thered be a rev a of that machinery ready for end of year, so the kinks can be worked out by spring 04. Alias|Wavefront should be done porting Maya Unlimited to OS X by then (yeah i called and asked for progress)

craigthomas · Jan 11, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by hippy3:
No chance....

You may be right, but I will not like if my next powerbook, while connected to my many devices, shows a ton of wires coming out of either side. Yes it's mostly an ascetic thing, and to me another plus on the Tibook side.

Mac Zealot · Jan 11, 2003, 11:30 PM

The tibook, IMHO, looks a bit pale next to the shiny new aluminum series....

But meh, they are still great laptops, I'd be very happy with one.

I'm probably going to get a 12" though, MAYBE a 15" or 17", have no idea until the time comes to buy one.

For all I know, I might end up getting an ibook, but I like the shiny aluminum style of the 12", and 17"

They also look tough as heck, like they'd survive some pretty hefty drops even the clamshell ibook would die from