[fat mac moron]

Defrocked priest John Geoghan, a central figure in the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal, was killed on Saturday by a fellow-inmate in the prison where he was serving a sentence for child rape, a state prisons official said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...h_geoghan_dc_7

Thankfully, there is justice still left in this world.

[iWrite]

Prison justice, too. I don't condone or agree with it, but it's the way things work. Might have been an inside job -- paid off by one of the families of the victims.

Reminds me of how Jeffrey Dahmer was killed -- he lasted about as long.

[Adam Betts]

He deserve this.. big time!

[iWrite]

from CNN
"A psychiatrist testified that Geoghan acknowledged having sexual fantasies about children.

'We discussed his ability to control his sexual fantasies and his sexual feelings about women and boys,' testified Dr. Edward Messner, a Boston-based psychiatrist who said he treated Geoghan between December 1994 and July 1996."

Priests should be allowed to marry and then maybe normal men would join the priesthood and all of this garbage would stop.

If they don't go into the priesthood because they're gay (which some say is the case), then maybe they end up with mental and emotional problems from denying their bodies a basic biological function.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Priests should be allowed to marry and then maybe normal men would join the priesthood and all of this garbage would stop.

Abolish religion altogether, and watch an almost inumerable amount of problems disappear in two generations.

[iWrite]

NO religion?

Not only will that never happen, if there wasn't the idea that there is ultimate reparation in the form of "Godly justice" then the collective societal conscience would feel little or no guilt and crime would be out of control.

The belief in God is a matter of societal evolution in that life has more value than otherwise and society continues to strive for the best.

[Adam Betts]

Know what's even more sad? Church bribed most victims' family with several millions dollar to 'shut them up'.

I bet Jesus will be very happy with this.

[Ken Masters]

Justice is served.......



.........................................

I wonder did anyone buTT rap him first before he died? Practice what you preach right?

[iWrite]

No matter how much his actions are despised, we should actually feel a little sorry for the poor bastard.

He obviously had/has a mental illness. Whether he's had it for a long time or it developed because of his religion (which is VERY plausible given the constraints of Catholicism), he obviously had his demons.

Apparently the guy was very remorseful -- which a lot of pedophiles say. They just cannot control themselves -- like schizophrenics or people with Tourette's Syndrome.

[iWrite]

Now here's something very interesting: the prison community discussing the same thing.

(Hope the link shows up, otherwise go to www.prisontalk.com and go through "Enter" to their forums and select the "World" thread.)

And, no, I'm not a member there. Found out about that place through an article a while ago and it's always interesting to read.

[Ken Masters]

Bah...


Your telling me we should feel a little sorry?

Get real, If you are arguing insanity, then that would apply for every murder, rapist, and all other feral humans,

Because if they were normal, they would not of done it in the first place.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
He deserve this.. big time!

It's right to be outraged that his actions and similar were allowed to continue with full knowledge of the diocese (who is largely at fault in this scenario, IMHO) - but that kind of attitude is out of line and doesn't help anyone, if for no other reason then your outrage making Geoghan a maryter for the people blocking real reform within the Church.

Look, be pissed off that the Church allowed this to happen, and that it continues to allow it. Be very pissed. But don't revel in the death of another, it doesn't do anything or help anyone.

[iWrite]

Ken Masters says
Because if they were normal, they would of done it in the first place.

Uh, "Earth to Ken Masters, you read me? Earth to Ken Masters, you read?"

That's the POINT: He's NOT normal.



I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished. I'm saying that I feel sorry for people, even criminals, even people who have done bad things to me. I feel sorry for them because, thankfully, I'm not them and I'm not fighting their circumstances and/or mental illnesses. I've got a lot to be grateful for and that makes me feel sorry for others who have had terrible things happen to them whether self-inflicted through their actions or not.

[Ken Masters]

Bah.. AGAIN!

Like if MAN!!!

Maybe some can't control it, BUT definitely not all!


Some people do bad things, because they know they can get away with it, they know its wrong, and they Choose to do it, because who's going to stop them.

Definitely not the Cath�s.


You�re suggesting that they are disabled to make right decisions. It all comes down to discipline and being human, and if you can't be that, you might as well end your life. End it, end it NOW

[iWrite]

Well, whatever you think, Ken.

I'm really not following you.

"Definitely not the Caths."

???

What does that mean?

That Catholics can't be or become mentally ill? The very nature of that religion, the rigidity and conformity and ritualistic and iconic nature of that religion, leads to obsessive compulsive disorder at the very least and mental illness at the most.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
It's right to be outraged that his actions and similar were allowed to continue with full knowledge of the diocese (who is largely at fault in this scenario, IMHO) - but that kind of attitude is out of line and doesn't help anyone, if for no other reason then your outrage making Geoghan a maryter for the people blocking real reform within the Church.

Look, be pissed off that the Church allowed this to happen, and that it continues to allow it. Be very pissed. But don't revel in the death of another, it doesn't do anything or help anyone.

Who frickin' care? He was out of the line anyway.

BTW, according to your Bible, he deserved to be dead for the sin he committed.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by iWrite:
NO religion?

Not only will that never happen, if there wasn't the idea that there is ultimate reparation in the form of "Godly justice" then the collective societal conscience would feel little or no guilt and crime would be out of control.

The belief in God is a matter of societal evolution in that life has more value than otherwise and society continues to strive for the best.

It'll happen, but probably in neither our lifetimes.

Odds are a system that we simply haven't though of will be put into practice (which will hopefully be just and effective) that will allow humanity to progress and leave the religion crutch in the proverbial closet forever.

[iWrite]

Man doesn't have enough faith in Homo Sapiens or the human race, to abolish religion for good.

We cannot stomach the idea of finite and the end of our own consciousnesses.

Also, our logic, flawed or incomplete though it is, also believes that we possess some degree of immortality -- only possible through an afterlife which is provided by "a" God.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Man doesn't have enough faith in Homo Sapiens or the human race, to abolish religion for good.

We cannot stomach the idea of finite and the end of our own consciousnesses.

Also, our logic, flawed or incomplete though it is, also believes that we possess some degree of immortality -- only possible through an afterlife which is provided by "a" God.

Then am I (according to your logic) above the rest of the human race? I know my existance is completely temporary, I can stomach the finite (I think you meant infinite, but even that I can acknowledge), and I don't believe in the afterlife.

In my opinion, even if god does exist, he is either a) deeply offended or b) extremely ****ing amused at how much we've skewed his original message (whatever it may of been.) And seeing as I believe that is the case, he's probably said "screw it" to this failed experiment called humanity, and that for the most part, we're on our own.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Who frickin' care? He was out of the line anyway.

BTW, according to your Bible, he deserved to be dead for the sin he committed.

Every letter and sentence in my bible isn't literally correct. My beliefs - spiritual and otherwise - aren't so simple. But this isn't a theological discussion.

The actions the Catholic Church in America has allowed and continues to allow are, without a question, morally repugnant and examples of the lowest depths humanity can fall to. But, in my eyes, so is taking joy in the violent and intentional death of another human.

Regardless of personal beliefs or feelings, society has already decided how the defrocked must repay his debt to society. The state of war is over, to take further reparation is unjust.

[iWrite]

Well, you're not in the majority, then.

Man also has a great deal of trouble with separation anxiety and grief when it comes to the death of loved ones, which is also another reason to foster religious beliefs.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Well, you're not in the majority, then.

Man also has a great deal of trouble with separation anxiety and grief when it comes to the death of loved ones, which is also another reason to foster religious beliefs.

Yeh, I've had friends and family die. I never really feel anything.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
Abolish religion altogether, and watch an almost inumerable amount of problems disappear in two generations.

Problem isn't religion. Man would find other things to exploit.

[iWrite]

Nothing truer said.

[Earth Mk. II]

Except, it doesn't really apply - since theology isn't an issue in this case.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Problem isn't religion. Man would find other things to exploit.

They'd be hardpressed to do so. Religion has had thousands of years to make sure it's story is just right for the masses to swallow up.

I doubt there's anything else that could kill that many people over so many years and yet still have people claiming it's the only true way to salvation and that it's true love.

Then again, humanity is pretty screwed up...nah, they'd never find something else.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
Except, it doesn't really apply - since theology isn't an issue in this case.

Well, no. But do most threads stay exactly on the same topic as the first post?

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
Well, no. But do most threads stay exactly on the same topic as the first post?

Well, no. But can you blame a guy for trying?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
They'd be hardpressed to do so. Religion has had thousands of years to make sure it's story is just right for the masses to swallow up.

I doubt there's anything else that could kill that many people over so many years and yet still have people claiming it's the only true way to salvation and that it's true love.

Then again, humanity is pretty screwed up...nah, they'd never find something else.

Try money, sex, or power.

All have been abused just as much as religion.

Actually more has been done in the name of power and control than has done because of religion.

But hey, it's your rant.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually more has been done in the name of power and control than has done because of religion.

Yes, but that is all motivated and amplified by religion. Why else would anyone think that they could be all powerful and all wise, if they didn't have "God" to model themselves after?

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
+1

Fixed.

[soul searching]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
Except, it doesn't really apply - since theology isn't an issue in this case.

Religion as in an organized entity (almost like an incorporated company) rather than a set of theological beliefs based on the bible.

So Misanthrope's point makes sense when the catholic church covers up incidents where priests abused children because it would have made them "look bad" in the public eye (again, as an entity).

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
Yes, but that is all motivated and amplified by religion. Why else would anyone think that they could be all powerful and all wise, if they didn't have "God" to model themselves after?

No it isn't all motivated by religion.

Hitler wasn't motivated by religion was he? No. He was motivated by power and control.

Is Saddam motivated by religion? No, he is motivated by power and control.

[AKcrab]

Thread's dead. Zim loses.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
Thread's dead. Zim loses.

I lose? We were playing a game?

And if this is a game, how did I lose?

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No it isn't all motivated by religion.

Hitler wasn't motivated by religion was he? No. He was motivated by power and control.

Is Saddam motivated by religion? No, he is motivated by power and control.

Maybe not (emphasis on maybe, you don't directly know any of them, kind of like with God), but they all did strive to be godlike in power. Hell, Hitler got pretty close, well, closer than Saddam ever got.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
Maybe not (emphasis on maybe, you don't directly know any of them), but they all did strive to be godlike in power. Hell, Hitler got pretty close, well, closer than Saddam ever got.

Right, but without religion, this would still happen. People would still be trying to strive for power.

Religion doesn't cause this. Man causes this.

The root of the problem is man, not religion.

Religion cannot physically do things.

Get rid of religion, the problem would still be there.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Religion cannot physically do things.

But it heavily influences. You cannot deny that. With that fact in mind, can you name another organized institution that has been around as long as religion?

[OldManMac]

Justice did not prevail in this case; revenge did. Justice involves a society prescribing consequences for breaking society's laws, which is what happened when he went to prison according to the sentence guidelines meted out.

Revenge is what happened when one individual decided that he had the right to take another life, despite what the legal system determined.

We all get pissed and angry at people; none of us has the right individually to determine what laws we can make or break.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Justice did not prevail in this case; revenge did. Justice involves a society prescribing consequences for breaking society's laws, which is what happened when he went to prison according to the sentence guidelines meted out.

Revenge is what happened when one individual decided that he had the right to take another life, despite what the legal system determined.

We all get pissed and angry at people; none of us has the right individually to determine what laws we can make or break.

Yes..but tonight a child molester somewhere is having second thoughts about molesting a child because he fears what will happen to him in prison.

So... the priest may be dead now, but somewhere maybe a child will not be molested maybe because of this.

[brown monk]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Yes..but tonight a child molester somewhere is having second thoughts about molesting a child because he fears what will happen to him in prison.

So... the priest may be dead now, but somewhere maybe a child will not be molested maybe because of this.

Wouldn't this fear set in when the priest went to jail?

I'm sure most people fear death more than jail, but most people would choose freedom over incarceration.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Yes..but tonight a child molester somewhere is having second thoughts about molesting a child because he fears what will happen to him in prison.

So... the priest may be dead now, but somewhere maybe a child will not be molested maybe because of this.

That's a lot of maybes.

To project what someone else may or may not be thinking is presumptuous at best. Especially when there's a lack of correlation between capitol punishments and decreased crime rates in the short term.

One could just as easily rebut that some potential child molester - or any other criminal - is out there thinking, "No, not me. I won't make the same mistake. I won't get caught."

Even ignoring that, and assuming that your assumptions are correct, this is only acceptable if the ends justify the means, which is not acceptable under our legal system.

The point of deterrence is moot and only distantly related to this situation.

[NYCFarmboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
That's a lot of maybes.

To project what someone else may or may not be thinking is presumptuous at best. Especially when there's a lack of correlation between capitol punishments and decreased crime rates in the short term.

One could just as easily rebut that some potential child molester - or any other criminal - is out there thinking, "No, not me. I won't make the same mistake. I won't get caught."

Even ignoring that, and assuming that your assumptions are correct, this is only acceptable if the ends justify the means, which is not acceptable under our legal system.

The point of deterrence is moot and only distantly related to this situation. [/QUOTE




In the least, this molester won't be getting out to harm any more children ever again.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
But it heavily influences. You cannot deny that. With that fact in mind, can you name another organized institution that has been around as long as religion?

The Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Communist China, Cuba, North Korea - all are/were officially atheist. None of these societies are/were free of the evils you blame on religion. Rather, these are/were some of the very worst societies ever.

[brown monk]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
The Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Communist China, Cuba, North Korea - all are/were officially atheist. None of these societies are/were free of the evils you blame on religion. Rather, these are/were some of the very worst societies ever.

What about world powers? Roman empire, England and now the US.

While the US doesn't claim a religion as a nation, it's foundation and government are heavily influenced by it.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
The Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Communist China, Cuba, North Korea - all are/were officially atheist. None of these societies are/were free of the evils you blame on religion. Rather, these are/were some of the very worst societies ever.

You sir are correct. But I never made reference to any of those parties, leaders, or countries in particular for the same reason you pointed out.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
You sir are correct. But I never made reference to any of those parties, leaders, or countries in particular for the same reason you pointed out.

But you did claim that if we abolished religion we'd be free of innumerable problems with a couple of generations. These societies attempted to do just what you recommend and yet not only are/were they as bad as anyplace else, they are/were worse.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Yes..but tonight a child molester somewhere is having second thoughts about molesting a child because he fears what will happen to him in prison.

So... the priest may be dead now, but somewhere maybe a child will not be molested maybe because of this.

Your argument, although seemingly correct at first glance, doesn't hold water. You make the assumption that logic precedes a molester's actions, which of course is incorrect. People who commit crimes, especially heinous ones such as murder, pedophilia, etc., don't sit around and think of the consequences before they act. If they did, we would have no prisons, as everyone would have a fear of being incarcerated for anything against the law. These people operate out of intense feelings of rage, anger, jealousy, etc., which causes logic to fly out the window. This priest surely knew that it was illegal and morally wrong to molest children, yet he did it anyway, which proves that prison was not a deterrent. Someone who has a predeliction to child molestation is not suddenly going to think, "Gee, I'd better straighten up, because this priest got killed in prison, so I don't want that to happen to me." Child molesters have extremely serious emotional defects, and, as such, are very hard to rehabilitate. No pedophiliac is going to go on the straight and narrow path because of this killing.

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
But you did claim that if we abolished religion we'd be free of innumerable problems with a couple of generations. These societies attempted to do just what you recommend and yet not only are/were they as bad as anyplace else, they are/were worse.

Well, being the boot on a society's throat is no way to go about doing things. That, and killing lots of people doesn't help either (Pol Pot's ghost, you may want to take notes here).

Granted, the following idea may be blown out of proportion by the conspiracy theorists, but the best way to go about abolishing something as absurdly large as religion is to ever so slowly have it disintegrate. Is it possible someone has already devised a way to do it? Sure is. But the Catholic church (among others) is doing a mighty fine job of shooting itself in the foot (and conseqently, ****ing itself over royally.)

That, and the perverted distortions of Islam that the terrorists use as a recruiting device aren't help that religion's public appearnce much either.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Misanthrope:
But it heavily influences. You cannot deny that. With that fact in mind, can you name another organized institution that has been around as long as religion?

No, people use it to try to influence.