[Nebagakid]

what about a LIST PAGE LINKS feature like in IE? That loads all the links on the page into tabs (list) view?

Can this all be... APPLESCRIPTable?

[TC]

Thanks for the reply, sounds great.
I probably didn't explain well enough what I meant by Keywords + Description, I was talking about the meta data in the header of the web page.

Since people use this info to help search engines understand the content of their page I thought it would be really useful when you are looking for a bookmark. For example you could choose to search on keywords and enter the word sport to find all the sites which are sport related even if they don't have this in their title or URL. I know this relies heavily on how good a site's keywords are but it still sounds like it could help with finding and maybe even organizing bookmarks.

[Nebagakid]

what about http://geourl.org/ ?

That information, in some web pages, show where the web site is located, could that be put into the "status bar" thing along with the RSS info? I mean, all it is finding information in the head of a web site.

Is there going to be a plug-in for status bar thingies

[rezEdit]

Originally posted by Nebagakid:
what about a LIST PAGE LINKS feature like in IE? That loads all the links on the page into tabs (list) view?

Can this all be... APPLESCRIPTable?

We've had this feature for some time. In the context menu for a page, and via a toolbar item called 'View links (as bookmarks)'. This capability has not changed for OmniWeb 5.

AppleScript support for new features in OmniWeb 5 is likely to be fairly minimal at first but we do plan to improve on this in a future release.

[Membranophonist]

I've written up a few thoughts on the preview screenshots at Think Secret:

OmniWeb 5 preview thoughts

[Rickster]

Regarding Membranophist's thoughts:

Yes, we do have a system for intelligently truncating page titles so that tabs (and bookmarks) can have meaningful short labels. It wasn't yet fully implemented as of when the screenshots were taken (and still sin't quite done), but it'll be there in the 5.0 release. For example, if you go to CNN.com today and cmd-click on "Apple users threaten to sue", that will be the tab title, even though the page title is "CNN.com - Apple users threaten to sue computer maker - Jan. 1, 2004".

Spring-loaded collections is a good idea... perhaps that'll make it in.


Sorry TC, but our Scrapbook-equivalent feature ended up getting deferred. It'll quite possibly come back in a future 5.x release, though.

does the tab drawer have the capability to dynamically resize the browser window?

I don't have OW5 on this machine, but I believe it can... it's based on the same drawer/window-management code as the drawers in OW4 were.

Regarding Krypton's surprise over resumable downloads: OW5 isn't focused on GUI improvements per se, but "feature" improvements -- things that you, the user, can do with the browser that make it a richer application, as opposed to things which improve (or make up for lack of) competence and compatibility as an HTML viewer. As such, we've put some work into non-GUI things (like the new cache architecture that finally gets us a persistent cache, resumable downloads, and the backend work that makes stuff like tabs and workspaces possible) as well as "mostly GUI" features like bookmarks, while deferring work like the integration of new WebCore releases until 5.0.x.


Mike S. writes, "I think that page marks could possibly be used as an alternate tab system".

I think you might be mistaking this feature for something else. Page marks are notations of special points in a browser's history -- they're much like an extended version of Safari's SnapBack feature, in that you can jump back and forth among important points in a session (like the main page of a site, or a search results page) instead of having to press the Back and Forward buttons a whole bunch of times. (See my post in the other thread for an example.)

Marked pages allow you to shorten your trips back and forth through a linear history; page marks have a definite order to them, just like individual pages do. The style of browsing you describe is very non-linear in nature; once you fire off a bunch of links to look at "later", the resulting windows or tabs can be looked at in any order, and each has its own linear history. What you describe sounds more like a cross between tabs and bookmarks with a different (or no) onscreen UI... which might be a good idea on its own.


ambush: We could import Safari bookmarks in 4.5. In progress for 5.0 is something better: instead of a one-time merge of your bookmarks from Safari (or another browser) into your OmniWeb bookmarks file, we can "mount" your Safari bookmarks in the sidebar of our bookmarks interface, like a disk mounts in the Finder sidebar. In other words, you always have access to your current Safari (or other browser) bookmarks from within OmniWeb, even if you go back to Safari and change them.

Yes, Quinn (the Eskimo?), you can cycle through tabs in either direction with key shortcuts.

[Nebagakid]

What is all this talk about integration with the WebCore? Does it use the WebCore in Safari, or that comes with Mac OS X, or is a framework that is in the OmniWeb package?

[bewebste]

Originally posted by Nebagakid:
What is all this talk about integration with the WebCore? Does it use the WebCore in Safari, or that comes with Mac OS X, or is a framework that is in the OmniWeb package?

OmniWeb uses the same WebCore framework (which is open sourced by Apple) as Safari, but it ships with its own copy in the OmniWeb bundle. When WebCore is updated, the Omni guys need to fold in that update into their own codebase before OmniWeb can take advantage of any improvements made by Apple.

[Rickster]

Right. And we can't just download and fold in the new version from Apple, because our WebCore includes a number of changes in order to integrate with our architecture (caching and ad blocking, etc) and enable our features (like the form-field editor window).

[oVeRmInD911]

Mmmm... I hope you were generous in what you put into the OmniFrameworks. That looks tasty!

[codeonezero]

Originally posted by Tim2 at Omni:
People higher up than me need to decide that. I'm guessing that yes, it will remain in OmniAppKit when we release the next version.

Hey there Tim2 and other Omnigroup people

OmniWeb 5.0 seems very interesting can't wait to try it out.

Regarding the table view that ambush and Michaelm8000 were discussing that has apparently variable height being used in OmniWeb (?).

I'm interested in knowing if it's subclassed from Apple's AppKit NSTableView or completely written from scratch.

I have seen performance issues in similar subclasses of NSTableView with varying row heights. I wonder how you guys got around that?

Thanks.

[Rickster]

Regarding the table view that ambush and Michaelm8000 were discussing that has apparently variable height being used in OmniWeb (?).

I don't believe we have any variable-row-height tables in OW5... I think what Mike was referring to was our code for drawing gradient-style selections (a la the sidebars in iApps and the Panther Finder) in tables -- where Apple uses that pattern in its interfaces, it uses a static image file of a blue gradient, but we generate it dynamically, so it matches your selection color preference and can be drawn at any height.

[MrBS]

The one thing I'm not sure about seeing the videos of OW5 in action is the pop up text when you mouse over a blocked ad. Browser graphics popping up over images (or image spaces here) is too reminiscent of WinIE.

I like 4.5's static implementation with the grayed boxes, the alt text and a tasteful little icon. The last thing websites need are added animations.

~BS

ps. A while ago someone from omni commented that the way Apple was now doing sound it would be possible to 'mute' the web browser (or any plugins). Any chance of this functionality being included in 5.0?

[codeonezero]

Originally posted by Rickster:

ambush: We could import Safari bookmarks in 4.5. In progress for 5.0 is something better: instead of a one-time merge of your bookmarks from Safari (or another browser) into your OmniWeb bookmarks file, we can "mount" your Safari bookmarks in the sidebar of our bookmarks interface, like a disk mounts in the Finder sidebar. In other words, you always have access to your current Safari (or other browser) bookmarks from within OmniWeb, even if you go back to Safari and change them.

[/B]

How about the ability to save OmniWeb bookmarks back into safari..so if i have a .Mac account, i can have my OmniWeb bookmarks available anywhere?

I think that iSync expects to grab the bookmark information from Safari, so being able to save OW bookmarks back into safari would then let them be accessible from any web browser through .Mac

or maybe you guys can figure out how to get iSync to grab bookmarks from OmniWeb

either way though not a major thing, it would be something neat to have

[nickm]

So, I have a quick question about the interaction between the new "Text Zoom" feature and the "minimum font size" setting, which I presume is still present as a global setting.

I typically like to crank my resolutions up as high as possible; my desktop CRT runs at about 102 pixels per inch. At this resolution, a 12 pixel font is akin to an 8.5 point font (12 px * 72 pt/102 px), basically at the edge of readability for a CRT. So, I normally set a minimum font size of 15 "points", which winds up being about 10 points.

Anyway, the reason I mention this is that, while this works for me, it winds up eliminating the dynamic range of font sizes in most web pages. For example, suppose some well-meaning designer makes a page that specifies fonts in absolute sizes 10, 12, and 15 pixels. With a minimum font size setting of 15, these will all be at 15, and I lose the dynamic range. What I would prefer to do, instead, is to have all of these sizes scaled by 1.41 (102 px/72 pt) and then set a minimum font size of 10 points. This would then preserve the designer's dynamic range. Contrast this to the alternative, which is to apply the minimum font size first, and then scale. In this case, I could lose the dynamic range.

In other words, which order are the "text zoom" and "minimum font size" applied?

[Nebagakid]

nickm, why do you do such things to your monitor?

[dhyatt]

In other words, which order are the "text zoom" and "minimum font size" applied? [/B]

In the latest WebCore (which has true minimum font size restored), text zoom is applied first, and then the minimum font size is applied.

[gorickey]

Originally posted by dhyatt:
In the latest WebCore (which has true minimum font size restored), text zoom is applied first, and then the minimum font size is applied.

Welcome to the MacNN Forums Dave...

What are your thoughts on OW 5?

[MacGorilla]

Welcome as well to where the party never ends!

With Safari and a future OW5, life is good,

[ambush]

So it should be released today.

Waiting patiently

[RevEvs]

Originally posted by ambush:
So it should be released today.

Waiting patiently

Feb 2nd - not Jan 2nd

revs

[ambush]

Originally posted by codeonezero:
I'm interested in knowing if it's subclassed from Apple's AppKit NSTableView or completely written from scratch.
Thanks.

It's probably a custom NSCell

[ambush]

Originally posted by RevEvs:
Feb 2nd - not Jan 2nd

revs

DAMN!

[Tim2 at Omni]

Originally posted by codeonezero:
I'm interested in knowing if it's subclassed from Apple's AppKit NSTableView or completely written from scratch.

Yeah, it has a static row height -- we just set it to something larger than the default in IB.

The gradient isn't achieved with a custom NSCell subclass. In fact, the little "camera" image is just a regular column with a regular NSImageCell in it. We override some of NSTableView's row-drawing primitives in order to achieve the gradient effect.

[nickm]

nickm, why do you do such things to your monitor?

Higher resolution means smoother screen fonts, all other things considered. Also, GUI widgets take up less space.

I can't abide the text on the 15" iMac or 14" iBook. I think anti-aliasing looks terrible at 85 dpi! However, on my CRT, I think the fonts look really nice even at small sizes.

[Membranophonist]

I have a few questions which I don't think have been answered either textually or graphically, so I put them forth here.

Does a notification appear in place of the check when a tabbed page cannot load? The yellow triangle with the exclamation point, perhaps?

Will custom labels also be used in the Site Preferences section button?

Do the Collections folders (and sub-folders) display a count for how many bookmarks therein have been updated or is it simply the white check/green circle icon?

Will the Address Book icon use the perspective of the actual application's icon?

[:dragonflypro:]

Amazin' preview...

my 1st question....

Surely there must be a keystroke to switch workspaces...yes?

T

[MrBS]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
Amazin' preview...

my 1st question....

Surely there must be a keystroke to switch workspaces...yes?

T

I was also wondering if there were ways to open multiple work spaces at once, like if you wanted to take a look at your "Work" workspace on one monitor and browse your "Fun" one on another. I don't want to combine the workspaces, but I want to have them both visible.


Also I hope the green check mark is toned down a little bit, it's pretty in-your-face for something that's not really unexpected.

~BS

[Nebagakid]

Hey if OmniGroup is using WebCore, doesn't that mean they have/should resubmit their changes to it for others (Apple) to see because it is all open-sauce?

[Stevos]

My understanding of how Omniweb 4.5+ does it's magic is as follows:

Omniweb downloads the page (maybe they use the new NSURL stuff, but I'd bet they use their own, likely threaded, stuff). It passes off the HTML to WebCore, which generates a Render tree of the page. A render tree is basically a description of what elements go where and what they look like. Omniweb then takes that tree and renders it (fairly easy compared to generating the tree), and adds their own spice like the super smooth text. If I'm correct, this basically means that Omnigroup does not make changes to WebCore but simply uses it "as-is".

I'd like to get some confirmation from an Omni engineer if my hunch is correct (having not actually looked through the WebCore API).

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by Nebagakid:
Hey if OmniGroup is using WebCore, doesn't that mean they have/should resubmit their changes to it for others (Apple) to see because it is all open-sauce?

Its LGPL, I believe, so no.

[Rickster]

Hey if OmniGroup is using WebCore, doesn't that mean they have/should resubmit their changes to it for others (Apple) to see because it is all open-sauce?

See http://www.omnigroup.com/ftp/pub/sof...X/Frameworks/.

this basically means that Omnigroup does not make changes to WebCore but simply uses it "as-is".

Not quite. Yes, WebCore sort of sits "in the middle" of our architecture -- "below" it are OWF and OmniNetworking, our multithreaded networking and resource processing frameworks, and "above" it is our code which does the actual rendering of text and resources according to WebCore's specifications, and the UI. However, there are a number of points where we've modified WebCore, either in order to "hook" into our code (on either end) or because certain OmnIWeb features (such as the separate form-field editor window) can't be implemented well with a "stock" WebCore. And we've fixed a couple of WebCore/KHTML bugs which AppleWebKit doesn't trigger, IIRC.

Surely there must be a keystroke to switch workspaces...yes?

We have key shortcuts for cycling through workspaces and for jumping to specific workspaces.

Does a notification appear in place of the check when a tabbed page cannot load? The yellow triangle with the exclamation point, perhaps?

Exactly.

Will custom labels also be used in the Site Preferences section button?

I'm not sure what you mean...

Will the Address Book icon use the perspective of the actual application's icon?

No.

In other words, which order are the "text zoom" and "minimum font size" applied?

In today's build, the minimum font size overrides the text zoom setting. I'm pretty sure that's the intended behavior that'll be in the final release, but I haven't been involved with that part of development so I can't say for sure.

How about the ability to save OmniWeb bookmarks back into safari [or iSync]

That's fairly unlikely, given that the Safari/iSync/.Mac formats and protocols are undocumented and subject to change. It's one thing to be able to import an undocumented format -- if it changes, you just lose the ability to import -- but if we export an undocumented format and the format changes, we have a good chance of destroying your data.

We have an unsupported feature in OW 4.5 (which will likely remain working as an unsupported feature in 5.0 and come fully into being in a future 5.x release) where you can store your bookmarks on a WebDAV server (such as iDisk) and use them from any copy of OmniWeb, anywhere. Until Apple opens up iSync to third parties, this is the best we can do.

A while ago someone from omni commented that the way Apple was now doing sound it would be possible to 'mute' the web browser (or any plugins). Any chance of this functionality being included in 5.0?

Yes, it's on the to-do list. (Basically, we could operate in a manner similar to Rogue Amoeba's audio-control products.) No, it probably won't make it into the 5.0.0 release.

[Nebagakid]

How similar are the Bookmarks to iTunes?

IS there a library of Bookmarks and from that you can make Groups and Smart Groups and then there are also Groups made for you? Because that would be kicking.

[MrBS]

Originally posted by Rickster:
I'm not sure what you mean...

...


Yes, it's on the to-do list. (Basically, we could operate in a manner similar to Rogue Amoeba's audio-control products.) No, it probably won't make it into the 5.0.0 release.

I think he was probably talking about how in the screen shots the site pref button has amazon's favicon in it.


I hope the sound control gets in soon, it's annoying when you're playing music out of your computer and then a website decides you should be listening to their clicks and whizzes. Really wish iChat had a mute button too (for the interface sounds, not the audio chat)... actually it would just be nice if iTunes/DVD Player/Quicktime gave you the option of allowing them to hijack the sound output so other programs couldn't interrupt... but that's getting a bit OT.


Any word on the ability to use 2 (or more) workspaces at once? Or will they be completely exclusive?

~BS

[edit: s/itunes/iChat]

[Targon]

1) Does it offer us the selection of a Custom Style Sheet like Safari?

2) Is there a pref to remove the 'Search Field' from the toolbar?

3) Can ya just 'right click' an image on a page and select 'block images of this size' and 'block images from this server'?

4) When i have 'don't load images that arn't from the site which loads them' is there some way u can have a some small text displayed in place of the image that wasnt loaded-the text would be the name of the image that acts like a button. EG When i visit my web-based add infested spam collector mail i block images from other servers but for some stupidassed reason the author decides to to have the tiny 'Compose, Send mail, delete mail functions as images not text links so all these functions are blank when the images are disabled. I want the text 'compose, send, delete to be shown in the place of the images that dont get load so then i can still navigate. It wouldnt be a problem if the dumbassed author just used the same name of the button in the url that would be displayed when holding the cursor over the image..i'd be able to know what the function was by looking in the status bar. its hard to make out what a image is linked to when the address is like

javascript:self.document.gmm_form.action%20='http://be202-mail.mail.lycos.com:80/1564189999909144561491/

ya know?

[MrBS]

Originally posted by Targon:
2) Is there a pref to remove the 'Search Field' from the toolbar?

4) When i have 'don't load images that arn't from the site which loads them' is there some way u can have a some small text displayed in place of the image that wasnt loaded-the text would be the name of the image that acts like a button. EG When i visit my web-based add infested spam collector mail i block images from other servers but for some stupidassed reason the author decides to to have the tiny 'Compose, Send mail, delete mail functions as images not text links so all these functions are blank when the images are disabled.

2) OW does standard cocoa toolbars, no prefs necessary just Browser>Customize Toolbar and drag off what you don't like, drag on what you do and rearrange as necessary.

4) A blocked image currently displays the alt-text, as it should. The send/compose buttons really should have 'send' or 'compose' as their alt text.

~BS

[Targon]

oh yeah will keychain actually work? I mean i used Safari to enter all my email address/passwords etc saved them in keychain so Safari loades them all the time. Yet, in OW it SHOULD just request the info from keychain but NOOOOO i have to re-enter all the data AGAIN for every damn site in OW...so i don't bother using it cos it wastes too much of my time.

[Rickster]

oh yeah will keychain actually work? I mean i used Safari to enter all my email address/passwords etc saved them in keychain...

OmniWeb 4 never claimed to save passwords entered in HTML forms, only passwords entered via the HTTP authentication dialog. Alas, that was a to-do that kept getting delayed through 4.x development... but it's finally here in OmniWeb 5.

1) Does it offer us the selection of a Custom Style Sheet like Safari?

That's available as a hidden preference in 4.5... we may yet have time to bring it into the UI for 5.0 (and if we do, it'd be available as a site-specific preference), but it hasn't happened yet.

How similar are the Bookmarks to iTunes?

Quite similar. In 5.0 we won't yet have the full functionality of user-definable Smart Groups as seen in iTunes, Xcode, etc... that'll likely come in a future 5.x release. In the meantime, we have a few special groups you can enable which filter your bookmarks and history to show you which URLs you've visited the most times and which have been marked updated/unreachable by our change checking feature.

[Membranophonist]

Regarding the Site Preferences labeling, I meant the blue "Preferences for <insert URL here> button shown in this screenshot. Would the URL be replaced with a custom label if one was specified?

Is it possible to detach tabbed windows through the contextual menu? How about by dragging and dropping the thumbnail/label on the Dock icon? Via drag and drop over the desktop using the Option key? (The last one is probably a bad idea)

Is a bookmark star rating system like that found in iTunes under consideration?

[squilla]

Does it support proxy auto-config? With authentication? Please?

[Nebagakid]

How is it with FTP? Are there any improvements there?

[MrBS]

Another question about the per site prefs, can you only set them for second level domains? Can you choose them just for one page? Or can you pick one subdirectory? Or just one third level domain?

~BS

[Rickster]

Site prefs are based on a similar notion of "autonomous domains" similar to the standard for cookies: a two-part domain name will be counted as autonomous for some TLDs but not for others: apple.com is autonomous, co.uk isn't, and apple.co.uk is. For 5.0, site prefs can only be set per autonomous domain... you can set prefs for all apple.com sites, but not have separate prefs for developer.apple.com. We know this can be pretty limiting in some situations, but decided to go with the simple implementation for schedule reasons... more sophisticated domain matching will likely come in a future 5.x release.

FTP support is largely unchanged from 4.5 right now, and will probably stay that way until a future 5.x release (save for possible minor bugfixes).

Unfortunately, we found we didn't have time for proxy auto-config as the 5.0 schedule went on... it's still a prriority for future releases.

The "Preferences for domain.com" label always shows the domain name we match against in order to decide which preferences to use when fetching a URL.

There are several methods and shortcuts to detach tabs from windows, yes.

Bookmark star ratings sound like a neat idea.

[Nebagakid]

can the address field be moved out of the toolbar and make it's own toolbar?

[gregomni]

Originally posted by Nebagakid:
can the address field be moved out of the toolbar and make it's own toolbar?

Yep. Exactly the same way as it can be in OmniWeb 4.x.

[Membranophonist]

I have more suggestions for bookmark improvement:

More on Smart Bookmarks, OW5

[Rickster]

Interesting ideas. If you want to make sure they get into the official queue for consideration in future releases, though, it's best to submit them to [email protected].

[ratlater]

Originally posted by Rickster:
Site prefs are based on a similar notion of "autonomous domains" similar to the standard for cookies: a two-part domain name will be counted as autonomous for some TLDs but not for others: apple.com is autonomous, co.uk isn't, and apple.co.uk is. For 5.0, site prefs can only be set per autonomous domain... you can set prefs for all apple.com sites, but not have separate prefs for developer.apple.com. We know this can be pretty limiting in some situations, but decided to go with the simple implementation for schedule reasons... more sophisticated domain matching will likely come in a future 5.x release.

That's disappointing, I was really looking forward to using this feature where at my job. We have a server, lets say foo.bar.company.com that runs all of our webapps (about 5). The url form for them is foo.bar.company.com/webapp1 and so on. I'd really like to be able to change the default text size for 2 of the webapps, but leave the rest alone.

-matt

[Membranophonist]

Rickster -

I'll be sure to use the e-mail address you posted.

[Nebagakid]

What kind of Dock animation will there be? Using the GeoURL code to have the globe spin to where the site is? I mean, it is practical, right?