[Atomic Rooster]

Originally posted by eklipse:
What a load of horse sh�t.

Schwarzenegger must be an extremely weak/simple minded fool to believe that garbage.

You have to remember who he is speaking to. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bullsh!t. The sheeply masses will believe anything at a pep rally. Just go to any loser high school football pep rally. They will believe the earth can be moved...until they lose of course.

Awnold is a cool movie star who has enormous presence. Why else would he be there.

If only he could act! And I hope he has taken counseling for the groping.

But all that steroid use may have left him permanently damaged.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
If only he could act! And I hope he has taken counseling for the groping.

But all that steroid use may have left him permanently damaged.

Petty

[Beewee]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
And those who need some reassurance of the delusion of America's
greatness:

Fixed

I found it interesting that he made "If you're a Republican" statement so vague that anyone could fit it. It's funny to see so many people getting down with one side or the other.

"I'm a Democrat."

"I'm a Republican."

"Conservative, liberal, rightwing, leftwing...etc"

All of these groups will lie, cheat, and steal to get your vote and support. That is the way this country works, blindly agreeing with whatever side you are on just shows the ignorance and stupidity that is the American. It has saturated this country to the point of drowning it. We have reached the point where no one thinks for themselves anymore; it's far too easy to let others think for you I guess. Stupidity, ignorance and delusion...the true American way of life."

Fixed

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
You have to remember who he is speaking to. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bullsh!t. The sheeply masses will believe anything at a pep rally. Just go to any loser high school football pep rally. They will believe the earth can be moved...until they lose of course.

Awnold is a cool movie star who has enormous presence. Why else would he be there.

If only he could act! And I hope he has taken counseling for the groping.

But all that steroid use may have left him permanently damaged.

Such insight. Your feelings must be hurt from him calling you a girlyman. You should seek counseling yourself.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Beewee:
We have reached the point where no one thinks for themselves anymore; it's far too easy to let others think for you I guess. Stupidity, ignorance and delusion...the new American way of life."

Oh yes, because back when political machines basically controlled politics in this country, everyone really thought for themselves.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Do you mean 'can', or 'should'?

can

Of course a person's success or prosperity can be influenced by country of residence. As others have posted, it's hard to get a break in countries where barriers are set up to what a person can think, do, or earn. Somalia, to use PacHead's example, is an excellent example. The old Soviet Union was another example, back during its time. And let's not forget the great grandaddy of them all: feudal Europe (note that I said feudal, not modern).

Some countries may make certain things easier but I don't believe that should make any difference to the individual - if he/she is determined to succeed it should not matter how difficult/treacherous the path to success is. In fact, if one must triumph over adversity in order to succeed - would that not make their success even more sweet?

I don't buy into the mentality of 'if you don't like, leave' or 'if it's too hard, quit' - I prefer ' 'if you don't like it, stay and fix it' or 'if it's too hard, try harder' - but that's just me.

Is is actually the country which does the influencing, though, or the system under which the country runs? It's really the system which matters. Traditionally, Republicans see the US as having a strong implementation of such a system, and they seem themselves as being guardians of this system against those who would harm it, intentionally or otherwise.

Whether it's the country or the system, I still don't believe it matters much overall - the individuals determination is the more important factor - is that not a core tenet of the Republican/Conservative ideology?

Up to now, I've only stated what is. The real question is, should all of this be the case? That is what I think you were trying to talk about, and if so, I'm up for debate. If not, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Again, personally, it doesn't make any difference what the case is - I would still hold myself solely responsible my success or lack thereof.

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
the fact is, his message is weak. "i can do it, so anybody else can too." bla blah blah, errrr-NO! not everybody is the governator and not everybody has his talent or wants to look like him.

That is why you fail.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
that's the point though. everybody "can" be comfortable has nothing to do with politics, or america, for that matter.

I wouldn't be so sure. This man's political opponents -led by the Democrats- have levied a charge that not everyone can be comfortable under the current system; indeed, this charge is one of the core underpinnings of their entire platform. It falls to the Republicans, therefore, to show that it is possible. If a poor immigrant fleeing a totalitarian regime can eventually rise to lead the world's fifth-largest economy, that is a point in favor of those who say that anyone can do it.

[Troll]

Originally posted by eklipse:
The information comes from Arnold's own mouth - he attempts to connect disconnected issues in order to form a convincing argument; he talks about no longer living under the fear of the Soviet boot whilst in fact, today, many live under the US boot; he relates his love of 'American' principles and values, apparently oblivious to American infringements on these values in other parts of the world; he attempts to paint the Republican party as holding the monopoly on ideals that in reality most people would aspire to - but usually disagree as to how to achieve them; he generally promotes the idea that a persons success and prosperity can be influenced by their country of residence - which I disagree with....

I think the place you live can affect your chances of success, but it seems to me that when he makes that point, he's making an argument for the Democrats and the Republicans. Having lived through a number of Republican and Democratic Administrations, Schwarzie can hardly argue that his success was impeded by the Democrats or that the Republicans alone saved Austria from slavery! It's like his speech gets close to making a point, then he realises that the point he's making is not partisan so he just makes a leap and says the word "Republican." It's so L.A. actually. He believes in his own story to such an extent that he can't imagine that it doesn't make sense to anyone else. It's like he thinks the great scriptwriter in the sky has a happy ending reserved for him so everything he does and says in the meantime is just filler.

"Salsa sauce with nachos ... Republican. Wayhay! Rain drops on your tongue in autumn ... George Bush. Ooh. Girlymen. Hoo, hoo. Thank you and goodnight!" - There you go, I could be the next governor of California!

[Beewee]

Originally posted by itai195:
Oh yes, because back when political machines basically controlled politics in this country, everyone really thought for themselves.

People haven't thought for themselves since the 60's and 70's and even then it was just rebelling. Your right, I don't think there has ever been a time that people thought for themselves in this country. Maybe during the Renaissance Period in Europe or the days of Aristotle and Galileo and in those days you were put to death for it.

We are a world full of sheep looking for any shepard to follow...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Troll:


"Salsa sauce with nachos ... Republican. Wayhay! Rain drops on your tongue in autumn ... George Bush. Ooh. Girlymen. Hoo, hoo. Thank you and goodnight!" - There you go, I could be the next governor of California!

Don't quit your day job.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Troll:

"Salsa sauce with nachos ... Republican. Wayhay! Rain drops on your tongue in autumn ... George Bush. Ooh. Girlymen. Hoo, hoo. Thank you and goodnight!" - There you go, I could be the next governor of California!

You've got my vote

[Millennium]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Some countries may make certain things easier but I don't believe that should make any difference to the individual - if he/she is determined to succeed it should not matter how difficult/treacherous the path to success is. In fact, if one must triumph over adversity in order to succeed - would that not make their success even more sweet?

I don't understand. I agree with just about every word you're saying, except that I allow for certain systems to actually make it truly impossible to succeed, leaving the only path to success being to overthrow or leave that system.

I don't buy into the mentality of 'if you don't like, leave' or 'if it's too hard, quit' - I prefer ' 'if you don't like it, stay and fix it' or 'if it's too hard, try harder' - but that's just me.

I agree with you, but I honestly don't see how this fits with the stuff you've said earlier. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm mixing up who posted what. You said -unless I am mistaken- that you don't believe his 'if I could do it, anyone can' line. However, that line follows logically from the stuff you're describing.

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by Troll:
"Salsa sauce with nachos ... Republican. Wayhay! Rain drops on your tongue in autumn ... George Bush. Ooh. Girlymen. Hoo, hoo. Thank you and goodnight!" - There you go, I could be the next governor of California!

Right. That's why you're here.

Arnold currently has a 70% approval rating in a fairly liberal state. He's getting things done. People are happy with him. If he wants to throw some rhetoric around, fine with me. If it gets some liberal's panties all knotted up then all the better.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I don't understand. I agree with just about every word you're saying, except that I allow for certain systems to actually make it truly impossible to succeed, leaving the only path to success being to overthrow or leave that system.

You do understand.

If the system does not permit you to succeed you must first overthrow the system.

I agree with you, but I honestly don't see how this fits with the stuff you've said earlier. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm mixing up who posted what. You said -unless I am mistaken- that you don't believe his 'if I could do it, anyone can' line. However, that line follows logically from the stuff you're describing.

I disagree with Arnold because he is saying (at least to my understanding) that he was only able to succeed in the way that he did because he was in America - I say it doesn't matter where one is, one holds their future entirely in their own hands - it's just a question of how far one is willing to go.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Beewee:
We are a world full of sheep looking for any shepard to follow...

I agree. Personally, I think at least having a few more shepherds to choose from would help, but we'll never completely eliminate the problem.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Troll:
"Salsa sauce with nachos ... Republican. Wayhay! Rain drops on your tongue in autumn ... George Bush. Ooh. Girlymen. Hoo, hoo. Thank you and goodnight!" - There you go, I could be the next governor of California!

[Myrkridia]

And I've been a Republican ever since! And trust me, in my wife's family, that's no small achievement! I'm proud to belong to the party of Abraham Lincoln, the party of Teddy Roosevelt, the party of Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) and the party of George W. Bush

Um yeah...Comparing Republicans of 144 years ago to republicans of today is about as pointless as saying, "I'm proud to belong to the Christian faith. Those that brought about the Inquisition, and the Trials of Salem."

If you believe our educational system should be held accountable for the progress of our children ... then you are a Republican!

I believe that our governement should be held accountable for the quality of our educational system.

And since this thread is about speeches, or a speech in particular. I figured to share a quote from a speech given to the house, by representative Ron Paul: "Excessive meddling in the internal affairs of other nations and involving ourselves in every conflict around the globe has not endeared the United States to the oppressed of the world. The Japanese are tired of us. The South Koreans are tired of us. The Europeans are tired of us. The Central Americans are tired of us. The Filipinos are tired of us. And above all, the Arab Muslims are tired of us."
Link

[itai195]

Originally posted by Troll:
"Salsa sauce with nachos ... Republican. Wayhay! Rain drops on your tongue in autumn ... George Bush. Ooh. Girlymen. Hoo, hoo. Thank you and goodnight!" - There you go, I could be the next governor of California!

LOL! I don't think this was a very good speech, but in general I'd give Arnie more credit than that.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally posted by itai195:
Petty

Yes but true...

[itai195]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Yes but true...

It makes it hard to say that Democrats take the high road when, for example, we try argue that Republicans engage in smear tactics.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
Laura Bush is fairly attractive. She's kept herself in shape compared to other first ladies. The reason most people become unattractive in older age is they get flubby and wrinkly.

You just don't like her because you're jealous that she gets it on with W.

Your fantasy world holds no interest for me. I'm jealous of no one, I'm very happily married.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Hey genius, I already wrote in another thread that not all Bush haters are America haters. Some people fall into one of those categories, and some people fall under both.

No reason to get all defensive.

well, I guess not all Kerry Haters are veteran haters, then. no need to get defensive.

[andi*pandi]

does it really matter worth a DAMN whether first ladies are hot/not?

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
does it really matter worth a DAMN whether first ladies are hot/not?

Are you jealous?

Don't start that male pig stuff. I was reading about a local Bill Clinton book signing and low and behold were a line of women oogling about "how adorable" Bill is. One of them beared a striking resemblence to Monica Lewinsky.

Laura Bush isn't quite hot. For a woman her age she is in nice shape and has a cute face.

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Your fantasy world holds no interest for me. I'm jealous of no one, I'm very happily married.

I'm just toying with you Paddy.

Besides I know you have a thing for Heinz-Kerry.

[chabig]

Arnold's speech is now available free at the iTunes Music Store.

Chris

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I found it interesting that he made "If you're a Republican" statement so vague that anyone could fit it. It's funny to see so many people getting down with one side or the other.

"I'm a Democrat."

"I'm a Republican."

"Conservative, liberal, rightwing, leftwing...etc"

All of these groups will lie, cheat, and steal to get your vote and support. That is the way this country works, blindly agreeing with whatever side you are on just shows the ignorance and stupidity that is the American. It has saturated this country to the point of drowning it. We have reached the point where no one thinks for themselves anymore; it's far too easy to let others think for you I guess. Stupidity, ignorance and delusion...the true American way of life."

I agree. All I have heard these past few months from anyone and everyone in the political process is attacks against the other guy, criticisms of their short-comings, and generic pronouncements from Candidate X as to what they can do better/faster/cheaper that the other guy can't do. Too many people are single-issues voters and if they think a specific candidate is in line with "their" thinking on the issue then they make up their mind as to who is going to get their vote.

And heaven forbid anyone be willing to engage in logical debate about the issues: So many people I talk with about politics, affiliated with both major parties, are simply parrots for their respective party lines. And if you do try and "debate" the issues with them they suddenly get defensive. How hard is it to make a simple statement of one's thoughts on a specific issue and back it up with coherent, consistent, logical arguments.

It's been a long time since I encountered a candidate who made me want to vote for them.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
That is why you fail.

LOL. okay.

but that's also why i succeeed. we've already discussed this. "optimism" and "having faith" are good personal traits, - but horrible political policies. that's just the way it is.

the whole thing about "strict personal responsibility", and "justification through faith" was tried by the church hundreds of years ago. it failed miserably then, just like it is worthless now.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by Millennium:
If a poor immigrant fleeing a totalitarian regime can eventually rise to lead the world's fifth-largest economy, that is a point in favor of those who say that anyone can do it.

errr, you are not talking about arnie here, are you?

if you are though, first of all "austria" was never a "totalitarian regime", secondly, he didn't have to "flee" from anywhere. oh man, that cracks me up.

and even if it were true, that is absolutely NO POINT in favor of anybody except arnold himself.

the point is, you can't "prove" for something to be possible in GENERAL by pointing to a specific persons "success", - or failure for that matter. life is WAY to complex to make such a sweeping generalization.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
Are you jealous?

BWAHAHAHA.

hmmmmmm.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by chabig:
Arnold's speech is now available free at the iTunes Music Store.

Chris

its overpriced.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
errr, you are not talking about arnie here, are you?

if you are though, first of all "austria" was never a "totalitarian regime", secondly, he didn't have to "flee" from anywhere. oh man, that cracks me up.

Austria itself may never have been under such a regime (though this is debatable), but that region was occupied by such a regime at that time.

the point is, you can't "prove" for something to be possible in GENERAL by pointing to a specific persons "success", - or failure for that matter. life is WAY to complex to make such a sweeping generalization.

If the sample size were only one, that would be one thing. But Arnold is not unique by any stretch of the imagination. People talk about how it's impossible to succeed in this country unless you start out with money, and all it takes is one counter example to disprove impossibility. But that's not actually my goal. Do you want other examples? I can provide them for people of all ethnicities, birthplaces, economic backgrounds, educational levels, physical and mental abilities, and so forth. It wasn't easy for any of these people; the only "easy" way to come into wealth is to inherit it and even then it's by no means easy to hold onto that wealth- but every last one of them did it. Why? Mostly because they didn't give up. When a path got harder to navigate, they pressed on. If a path actually closed off, they found another. And in the end, they finished.

It's not easy for everyone. For almost everyone, in fact, it's damn hard. But impossible? Never.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Austria itself may never have been under such a regime (though this is debatable), but that region was occupied by such a regime at that time.

for a short period of time a part of austria was occupied by the soviet union. austria NEVER was a "socialist" country.

Originally posted by Millennium:
It's not easy for everyone. For almost everyone, in fact, it's damn hard. But impossible? Never.

100% agreed.

[Jansar]

Man, what a success story...

Arnold Schwarzenegger is a frickin' genius. It's amazing how a man could accomplish so much and still be well-liked (and on top).

[itai195]

Originally posted by Millennium:
If the sample size were only one, that would be one thing. But Arnold is not unique by any stretch of the imagination. People talk about how it's impossible to succeed in this country unless you start out with money, and all it takes is one counter example to disprove impossibility.

Arnold cheated to attain his early success. He used steroids. Anyway, I would disagree with someone who said that it's impossible to succeed in the US without money. But I think it is impossible for some people to succeed because of a combination of factors, and far be it for me, who really has had it pretty easy, to tell someone who started out with much less than I that all it takes is hard work.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
its overpriced.

[Jansar]

Originally posted by itai195:
Arnold cheated to attain his early success. He used steroids. Anyway, I would disagree with someone who said that it's impossible to succeed in the US without money. But I think it is impossible for some people to succeed because of a combination of factors, and far be it for me, who really has had it pretty easy, to tell someone who started out with much less than I that all it takes is hard work.

EVERY bodybuilder used steroids. Even so, what does that have to do with his politics?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Jansar:
EVERY bodybuilder used steroids. Even so, what does that have to do with his politics?

We aren't talking about his politics (well, indirectly we are). If Arnie is an example of how it's possible for anyone to succeed in the US, what is one to make of his steroid use?