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Snow leopard: Release (Page 14)
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moep
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Aug 16, 2009, 03:45 PM
 
I was curious how the JS performance of Safari in 64 bit compares to 32 bit so I installed 10A432 on an external HD and benched with Sunspider.
First run 64 bit, second 32 bit. (should have done it the other way around but meh)

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Chuckit
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Aug 16, 2009, 04:07 PM
 
So it's about 30% faster in 64-bit? Am I reading that right?
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OreoCookie
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Aug 16, 2009, 04:08 PM
 
Can you also compare it to Leopard?
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moep
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Aug 16, 2009, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Can you also compare it to Leopard?
This is my everyday 10.5.8 installation with all inputmanagers deleted and most third-party background processes killed:

( Last edited by moep; Aug 16, 2009 at 05:17 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Aug 16, 2009, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
1. Everything still seems half-implmented

2. Years after the 2.0 rewrite, it still doesn't have basic features that 1.x had such as toolbar keywords

3. The author stopped maintaining the SVN repository years ago, claiming he didn't have time to keep it up anymore

4. The English version of the web site doesn't work anymore

5. Back when I could actually get to the forums (before the English page went down), it was overrun with spam with the only legitimate threads having titles like "Is this dead?"

6. Sending e-mails to the author gets no response

7. Sending patches to the author gets no response

Eh... it's dead, Jim.
Ah, I see. I stopped using Shiira quite a while back because it seemed like basically a buggier Safari at the time, so I really didn't know. It looks like the English Shiira site is up, though.
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CharlesS
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Aug 16, 2009, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It looks like the English Shiira site is up, though.
Does that actually work for you? For me, it's displaying the actual HTML code in my browser instead of rendering it.

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Aug 16, 2009, 06:51 PM
 
Yep. Works for me in Safari 4, Firefox 3 and Chrome DP.
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Aug 16, 2009, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
yep, i love having my credit card info spilled out onto a page with little to no input from me at all!
That WOULD be dumb. Fortunately that's not how 1Password works at all

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Aug 16, 2009, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Does that actually work for you? For me, it's displaying the actual HTML code in my browser instead of rendering it.
Same here.

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Aug 16, 2009, 07:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Does that actually work for you? For me, it's displaying the actual HTML code in my browser instead of rendering it.
Here too... weird.
     
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Aug 16, 2009, 07:15 PM
 
Ah, wait... Shiira Project
     
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Aug 16, 2009, 07:23 PM
 
Ah... Looks like there were some work done a couple of days ago even

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Aug 17, 2009, 08:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That very well might be the reason. Otherwise, the most appropriate response from Apple would be to remove input manager hacks and add a supported plugin API.
If Apple had wanted to remove it for being control freaks, they would have done so in 10.5, like they planned. They didn't - apparently, the number of valid products using this hack was already too large.

As for supported APIs: There is one in Safari. Apparently 1Password can work with that one, they just didn't bother trying as long as the Inputmanager hole is there.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
What? Services = copy and paste. It's certainly not up to reimplementing 1Password. Watch the videos on 1Password's site and tell me how many of the features could be described as "Drill through four levels of awkwardly located menus, copy the selection from the Web site and paste a transformed version of it." What 1Password is doing is quite a bit more sophisticated and Services just isn't up to snuff.
Then specify what you want ask Apple extend it. You can make a basic password manager by simply pasting in the correct login and password. Services has languished precisely because you can roll your own using a hack.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
As I said in my previous post, that is a ridiculous suggestion. That's like suggesting that OS X should never have been made, and instead Apple should have made 12 different operating systems — one with disk burning, one with Aqua, one with Cocoa, one with file browsing, one with preemptive multitasking...
Hardly. Everyone tries to make the best product they can, in webbrowsers or OSes or whatever. A parallel is the various Newswatchers made after the original app was open-sourced - initially they focused on different areas, but quite soon they all competed with each other in all areas. I'd much rather see that than the current morass of Safari plugins.

Saft is pretty close to a complete remake of the Safari interface already - something like that shouldn't be done by hacking existing code. The existing plug-in architecture is apparently decently capable already if it supports 1Password, so anything smaller than that can certainly run as plugin.
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Aug 17, 2009, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
If Apple had wanted to remove it for being control freaks, they would have done so in 10.5, like they planned. They didn't - apparently, the number of valid products using this hack was already too large.
It is possible for things other than hacks to use the InputManager mechanism, such as, i dunno, actual input managers. It's because of developers of input managers that Apple resurrected the mechanism in Leopard, not because of hacks. However, developers have been told to move to Input Methods, and it's been a while, and you know how Apple is about supporting legacy software. I wouldn't expect InputManagers to last much longer. I'm kind of surprised it's in 10.6, to be honest.

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Aug 17, 2009, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
As for supported APIs: There is one in Safari. Apparently 1Password can work with that one, they just didn't bother trying as long as the Inputmanager hole is there.
No, that's a hack too. Those plugins are supposed to display unsupported media in Safari (like Flash and Windows Media and so on) — they're using a hole in that plugin API just like they did in the input manager plugin API.

Originally Posted by P View Post
Then specify what you want ask Apple extend it. You can make a basic password manager by simply pasting in the correct login and password. Services has languished precisely because you can roll your own using a hack.
The request would be basically, "Make Services like InputManagers," which is kind of a silly request if you don't like input managers. Services have languished because Apple doesn't give a crap about them. You notice how many of Apple's programs provide Services? They don't use them either!

Originally Posted by P View Post
Hardly. Everyone tries to make the best product they can, in webbrowsers or OSes or whatever. A parallel is the various Newswatchers made after the original app was open-sourced - initially they focused on different areas, but quite soon they all competed with each other in all areas. I'd much rather see that than the current morass of Safari plugins.
If all I want to do is add a couple of features an existing product, why should I have to take responsibility for an entire freaking Web browser until the end of time? Reimplement bookmarks, tabs, clippings, snapback, the whole interface, security, sessions and thousands of other little features — oh, and work out all the kinks and bugs that come with reimplementing all this crap. And then I have to keep up with all the future Web browser trends and spend time reimplementing all that crap. What a colossal waste of time. Can you imagine if every Firefox extension were a separate Web browser? Nobody would use any of them — including the original Firefox!

Originally Posted by P View Post
The existing plug-in architecture is apparently decently capable already if it supports 1Password, so anything smaller than that can certainly run as plugin.
As I pointed out above, the underlying assumption here is wrong. Safari has no plugin architecture.
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Aug 17, 2009, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
No, that's a hack too. Those plugins are supposed to display unsupported media in Safari (like Flash and Windows Media and so on) — they're using a hole in that plugin API just like they did in the input manager plugin API.
Possibly. It's the wrong setup to inject code, but it's still better to inject it just into Safari than to inject it into everything.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
The request would be basically, "Make Services like InputManagers," which is kind of a silly request if you don't like input managers. Services have languished because Apple doesn't give a crap about them. You notice how many of Apple's programs provide Services? They don't use them either!
An appropriate architecture would be to send data back and forth to a separate process, not to run code in the same process. Services is certainly less than it could be, but it's not completely dead.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
If all I want to do is add a couple of features an existing product, why should I have to take responsibility for an entire freaking Web browser until the end of time?
If it is essentially a new browser, then yes that's what you should do. If it is something smaller, then it would be nice if there were an architechture for it. Funny, there are several: Don't like Services? Look in to what Applescript/Appleevents can do. I did view that movie of 1Password you linked - I think anything in that one can be done by a separate program communicating with Safari (or whatever) using a combination of Services and Applescript. Take a look at Safari's dictionary if you don't believe me. It's probably harder to do that way if you're used to letting your code trample all over someone else's data structures, but that is the way it should be done, and IS done in any other app. How do apps communicate with Word or Excel, when they need to? By using its macro language to communicate, or by injecting their own code?

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Reimplement bookmarks, tabs, clippings, snapback, the whole interface, security, sessions and thousands of other little features — oh, and work out all the kinks and bugs that come with reimplementing all this crap.
As opposed to letting someone else work out the bugs caused by your code doing things it was never supposed to be able to do?

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
And then I have to keep up with all the future Web browser trends and spend time reimplementing all that crap. What a colossal waste of time. Can you imagine if every Firefox extension were a separate Web browser? Nobody would use any of them — including the original Firefox!
Oh, I think that a significant portion of all Firefox installations use no extensions at all - and it is very different if the browser was designed for it, so there is a reasonable chance to figure out where the bug came from and who was wrong. If you use a security hole, there is not way of knowing if that crash came from a Safari or bug or from a bug in one of the ten "plug-ins" you have installed.
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Aug 17, 2009, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
As for supported APIs: There is one in Safari. Apparently 1Password can work with that one, they just didn't bother trying as long as the Inputmanager hole is there.
As we know, they still went for the InputManager solution. I doubt you can write a web plugin that will allow a toolbar button and all the advanced functionality now in 1Password.

That said, I know they are working on a 64-bit solution, but how they are going to accomplish that is hush hush.

In the meantime there is no downside to running Safari in 32-bit mode

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Aug 17, 2009, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Hardly. Everyone tries to make the best product they can, in webbrowsers or OSes or whatever. A parallel is the various Newswatchers made after the original app was open-sourced - initially they focused on different areas, but quite soon they all competed with each other in all areas. I'd much rather see that than the current morass of Safari plugins.
And a parallel to that is all the various Linux distributions and OSS forks of other software. And we all know how great that is…

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Chuckit
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Aug 17, 2009, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Possibly. It's the wrong setup to inject code, but it's still better to inject it just into Safari than to inject it into everything.
SIMBL already took care of that with input managers — it only loaded them in specific apps. And as far as I know, internet plugins will actually load into other apps that use WebKit as well.

Originally Posted by P View Post
Don't like Services? Look in to what Applescript/Appleevents can do. I did view that movie of 1Password you linked - I think anything in that one can be done by a separate program communicating with Safari (or whatever) using a combination of Services and Applescript. Take a look at Safari's dictionary if you don't believe me.
I just did. Safari's full list of non-standard Applescript actions:
  • do JavaScript
  • email contents
  • show bookmarks
Wow. It would be quite a feat if you even managed to show the "Save this login in 1Password?" pane using AppleScript and Services.

Originally Posted by P View Post
As opposed to letting someone else work out the bugs caused by your code doing things it was never supposed to be able to do?
No, I think you should work that out yourself as the developer of a plug-in. And since 1Password has been recommended by Apple itself, I think its developers have done that.
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Aug 17, 2009, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Services have languished because Apple doesn't give a crap about them. You notice how many of Apple's programs provide Services? They don't use them either!
It should be noted that Services in Snow Leopard finally is given the treatment they deserve.

That however, still don't make them a replacement for Input Managers.
( Last edited by - - e r i k - -; Aug 17, 2009 at 07:20 PM. )

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Chuckit
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Aug 17, 2009, 07:25 PM
 
Does the contextual services support actually work in practical use? I know I've got about 200 services lit up in the menu any time I have a selection, so I fear bringing up a contextual menu in Snow Leopard.
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Aug 17, 2009, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Does the contextual services support actually work in practical use? I know I've got about 200 services lit up in the menu any time I have a selection, so I fear bringing up a contextual menu in Snow Leopard.
Snow Leopard disables most your services by default, and only enables context-relevant services in any case. Here's the panel for switching them on and off:


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Aug 18, 2009, 07:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I just did. Safari's full list of non-standard Applescript actions:
  • do JavaScript
  • email contents
  • show bookmarks
Wow. It would be quite a feat if you even managed to show the "Save this login in 1Password?" pane using AppleScript and Services.
There's more than that. I'm not at my Mac now, but there were certainly commands for getting the URL for the current tab and getting the HTML source or plain text of it. My proposed setup is not to run everything in Applescript: You run the main code in your own application (make it a NSUIElement if you want to hide it) and communicate with Safari through those methods.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
No, I think you should work that out yourself as the developer of a plug-in. And since 1Password has been recommended by Apple itself, I think its developers have done that.
And that's the rub: How would you know if the bug is from your code or someone else's? If it's just your code loading into one specific app you know, you might have a decent chance, but as soon as there are several hacks, that breaks. Maybe the bug is actually in Safari code, which you can't change, but won't show up unless you run two specific hacks together. How can you ever find and fix a bug like that? What if that bug enables an attacker to execute arbitrary code from a webpage? (BTW, is Safari sandboxed under SL, like IE is on Windows? The functionality to do so is in Leopard, but it's not active for Safari)
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Aug 18, 2009, 10:41 AM
 
Apple contacted me about another major bug I found in 10.6, affecting seemingly random Rev 1 MacBook Air systems. I don't see how this can be addressed before final release, and since there are no new builds -- I guess this MASSIVE bug will be in the 10.6. TOTALLY SUCKS. So far, no one can figure out what's causing the issue -- and the problem makes a HUGE portion of the MBA totally unusable.

Ugh...
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Aug 18, 2009, 10:58 AM
 
What massive bug? I've read of one regarding the cooling systems that go into overdrive after some fixed period of time. Are you referring to that? And does that still happen with the build which is rumored to be the GM build (10A432)?
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Aug 18, 2009, 11:11 AM
 
Like I said, expect Software Update to have something for you as soon as you start up Snow Leopard.
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Aug 18, 2009, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What massive bug? I've read of one regarding the cooling systems that go into overdrive after some fixed period of time. Are you referring to that? And does that still happen with the build which is rumored to be the GM build (10A432)?
That's one I reported as well, and yes, it seems to persist in 432. The other one is that MBA's seemingly randomly lose all audio-output capability. Zero. Nada. No built-in audio output capability.
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That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Aug 18, 2009, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Like I said, expect Software Update to have something for you as soon as you start up Snow Leopard.
Not unless they release things sooner in Cali. Nothing new is out here, yet.
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Aug 18, 2009, 11:29 AM
 
I meant the actual release version. They've got a couple of weeks before then.
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Aug 19, 2009, 01:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
I've only got one question: can I change the full-screen QuickLook keyboard shortcut from opt-cmd-Y to something sane? Like cmd-space or opt-space?
     
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Aug 19, 2009, 01:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I've only got one question: can I change the full-screen QuickLook keyboard shortcut from opt-cmd-Y to something sane? Like cmd-space or opt-space?
Nope. I can't even add the menu item either, because it lists the file: Slideshow "file.jpg"

Tried to add Slideshow "@", but no dice either.

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Aug 19, 2009, 07:55 AM
 
Does anyone know the actual release date for SL?
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Aug 19, 2009, 08:31 AM
 
The exact quote from Apple is "this September".
     
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Aug 19, 2009, 09:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I've only got one question: can I change the full-screen QuickLook keyboard shortcut from opt-cmd-Y to something sane? Like cmd-space or opt-space?
Isn't that shortcut just "spacebar"?
     
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Aug 19, 2009, 09:27 AM
 
Full-screen.
     
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Aug 19, 2009, 06:27 PM
 
In the meantime there is no downside to running Safari in 32-bit mode
Not true. You lose some of SL Safari's sandbox/process capabilities such as running Flash in a separate process.

That said I'm confident 1Password will run in SL within a few days of release.

There's more than that. I'm not at my Mac now, but there were certainly commands for getting the URL for the current tab and getting the HTML source or plain text of it. My proposed setup is not to run everything in Applescript: You run the main code in your own application (make it a NSUIElement if you want to hide it) and communicate with Safari through those methods.
There is more, but not a lot more. Safari's Applescript capabilities are really woefully inadequate. It's embarrassing. There are lots of things I'd love to script (say cut a particular graphic on the page) but there's no way to do. Even when scripting Safari you spend most of your time injecting Javascript onto pages. At a minimum selecting text and graphics ought to be as easy in Safari as in TextEdit or Pages. And edit fields ought be selectable and editable ala TextEdit.

Apple's really never made sufficient use of Applescript. And going with the ScriptingBridge rather than just bringing Appscript inhouse was a really stupid decision. SB is a pale shadow of the capabilities and elegance of AS.

That said I don't think Apple Events would be the way to go for 1Password. Of course I have no clue how they actually are doing it. I do wish Apple had a more robust plugin technology. I really have come to rely on plugins like Glims and 1Password. Without them I'd seriously have to investigate FireFox or perhaps Chrome when it's available.
     
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Aug 19, 2009, 09:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eden Aurora View Post
Does anyone know the actual release date for SL?
Gruber says August 28th, and Gruber doesn't make predictions unless he is fairly certain.

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Aug 19, 2009, 09:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by clarkgoble View Post
Not true. You lose some of SL Safari's sandbox/process capabilities such as running Flash in a separate process.
Aha. Thanks for clearing that up

Originally Posted by clarkgoble View Post
That said I'm confident 1Password will run in SL within a few days of release.
Well, technically it runs in SL of course. But yes, it will run in 64-bit as well. I'm just worried about the UI-tradeoffs that might have to be made.

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Aug 19, 2009, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Gruber says August 28th, and Gruber doesn't make predictions unless he is fairly certain.
Just to clarify, he didn't say this as a solid prediction. He just said that's what his sources were telling him. I'd guess either Gruber or his sources think there's still a possibility of last-minute delays.
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Jasoco
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Aug 19, 2009, 11:50 PM
 
The 28th is next Friday. I'd think if the release was coming so soon, there'd be a countdown on Apple.com. There's always a countdown.
     
Simon
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Aug 20, 2009, 02:34 AM
 
What's the deal with the sudden rush at Apple?

Am I mistaken or is the Win 7 release slated for Oct 22? If Apple released SL in late Sep they would fulfill their promise and still be ahead of MS. What's the reason they are rushing SL to the market? Are they really that sure they've ironed out all the bugs? From what I hear several (including really old ones) are still present in the latest builds.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 20, 2009, 03:22 AM
 
They need it out for their new touchscreen home controller iMagicPad touches.
     
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Aug 20, 2009, 06:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
They need it out for their new touchscreen home controller iMagicPad touches.
Joking aside, the most logical answer is hardware support for some new feature.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Simon
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Aug 20, 2009, 08:34 AM
 
Which begs the question - which new hardware is Apple going to release in the next two weeks that requires SL?
     
Dakar V
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Aug 20, 2009, 09:43 AM
 
Something from iTunes in September?
     
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Aug 20, 2009, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Which begs the question - which new hardware is Apple going to release in the next two weeks that requires SL?
A $500 netbook that doesn't suck? Please?

Dell recently released a "netbook" - except it had a high-res 11" widescreen (enough space for a decent keyboard), a real Core 2 Duo CPU (a CULV model so underclocked to 1.2 GHz, but better than an Atom), Intel 4500MHD graphics (not a patch on a GF 9400, but way over the standard netbook fare of GMA 950), a full Windows installation (Vista or Win 7, no gimped XP Starter stuff), 2 gig RAM and 250 gig HD. $400. Apple charges more because it includes much more software, but call it $500 and it would still fly off the shelves as a Macbook mini. Say that instead of that HD you have some flash storage that Leopard would barely fit on, and suddenly SL got urgent.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 20, 2009, 11:45 AM
 
@P
What makes that Dell machine a netbook then? Of course, it's hard to distinguish between netbook and cheap notebook, but usually it was the cpu that gave it away. BTW, do you have a link or a name/model number?
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Simon
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Aug 20, 2009, 12:36 PM
 
P, that Dell netbook sounds good to me (apart from Windows obviously).

The real question is, can you order it without Windows and is it easy to hack? In other words, might this turn out to be the ideal Hackintosh?

If Apple did those specs I'd expect the price to be roughly $799, maybe $699 if we're very optimistic. At that price, would it still fly off the shelf? Note, the 13" MB starts at $999.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Aug 20, 2009, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
@P
What makes that Dell machine a netbook then? Of course, it's hard to distinguish between netbook and cheap notebook, but usually it was the cpu that gave it away. BTW, do you have a link or a name/model number?
I believe P is referring to the Inspiron 11z

http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/noteb...1z&s=dhs&cs=19
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Aug 20, 2009, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
@P
What makes that Dell machine a netbook then? Of course, it's hard to distinguish between netbook and cheap notebook, but usually it was the cpu that gave it away. BTW, do you have a link or a name/model number?
It is indeed the Inspiron 11z as linked by Mrjinglesusa. Nothing makes it a netbook except price and that laptops tend to start at 12" - it's just that it was referred to as one in the piece I saw introducing it.

Originally Posted by Simon
P, that Dell netbook sounds good to me (apart from Windows obviously).

The real question is, can you order it without Windows and is it easy to hack? In other words, might this turn out to be the ideal Hackintosh?
It did sound good to me as well, so I looked around. No, you can't order without Windows. It's brand new (launched on Tuesday, I think) so probably noone has tried installing osx86 on it yet, but the graphics driver seems to be a problem. Apple never used that model. Possibly the driver for the last non-nVidia macbooks could be hacked (that was the X3100, a predecessor of sorts), but I couldn't find anyone who has done it.

If Apple did those specs I'd expect the price to be roughly $799, maybe $699 if we're very optimistic. At that price, would it still fly off the shelf? Note, the 13" MB starts at $999.
The number was of course from Jobs' musings on the subject. Counting up savings from the plain Macbook brings me to about $700 as well, but that price wouldn't make a splash. That's why I wonder if they aren't trying something else to get to that $500 laptop that doesn't suck.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
 
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