[Eug]

Apple hosting "Back to the Mac" event October 20: OS X Lion? | Electronista

It's probably about Lion and a few other things, but I'd like to see a low priced 11.6" Air. I don't expect to see such a airy beast at all though.

[Atheist]

What kind of precedence is there to this kind of event? Are Mac OS releases usually announced at the WWDC?

[Eug]

Maybe the timing was off this time? Rumour has it Apple has been putting a lot of the OS programmers onto iOS, which makes me wonder if it significantly delayed 10.7 development.

[mkerr64]

i've read a new Verison iphone 4 + new air + 7" ipad??

[Eug]

iPads aren't Macs, and neither are iPhones.

At least OS X runs on Macs, but iOS doesn't. Or at least not yet.

[Brien]

Well, assuming most of the rumors have some truth, it looks like:
- 10.7 Lion sneak-peek
- Spec bump for MBP, possibly new MBA
- iOS 4.2 news? It'll be out in less than a month.

No idea what they've been working on, but I wouldn't be surprised if 10.7 sees a new UI with some heavy influence from iOS. Snow Leopard was very focused on under the hood improvements, which means that 10.7 will probably be all about the front-end. Maybe a touch layer and touch-enabled Macs are in the near future?

Also, I'm fairly confident that 10.7 will drop 32-bit Intel support, if the trend continues.

[Eug]

I suspect that 32-bit Intel will continue to be supported in 10.7, but not necessarily with all the bells and whistles of 10.7.

That said, I could be wrong. I predicted G5s wouldn't be dropped from OS X until 10.7. I was wrong. They were dropped with 10.6.

[Big Mac]

There's no way they're dropping 32-bit Intel support in 10.7. That won't happen for years to come, IMO. Look at the fact that just recently they started booting into the 64-bit kernel. I don't think they'd go from that to dropping 32-bit support in one release. There are a lot of 32-bit Intel machines out there and a lot of recent customers who would be really pissed off to find out they were being orphaned so soon.

[besson3c]

Is 64 bit kernel booting the default now? My machine is still booted into the 32 bit kernel:

$ uname -a
Darwin mymachine.local 10.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 10.4.0: Fri Apr 23 18:28:53 PDT 2010; root:xnu-1504.7.4~1/RELEASE_I386 i386 i386

[Brien]

Well, the last 32-bit machine, the Core Solo/Core Duo minis, were released in 2006, so it's something to consider. I hope I'm wrong.

[Eug]

Indeed. Apple was in fact still selling PowerPC machines until late 2006. The Mac Pro was introduced in August 2006, but IIRC, they were still selling G5 Power Macs for a little while after that, mainly because Photoshop hadn't made the transition to Intel yet.

[olePigeon]

Maybe they'll get around to fixing Time Machine Server.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Well, the last 32-bit machine, the Core Solo/Core Duo minis, were released in 2006, so it's something to consider. I hope I'm wrong.

I think Apple will only drop hardware support when it is a burden for them to continue to support. I think that 32 bit apps and utilities will be around for a while, in part because there is no great gain in making many of them 64 bit. Where there is 32 bit software, what incentive is there to drop support for 32 bit hardware?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think Apple will only drop hardware support when it is a burden for them to continue to support. I think that 32 bit apps and utilities will be around for a while, in part because there is no great gain in making many of them 64 bit. Where there is 32 bit software, what incentive is there to drop support for 32 bit hardware?

Upgrade cycle.

They have a habit of forcing hardware upgrades. One example is my last generation G4 iBook. iBooks weren't supported by Aperture, because of the GPU. Then Apple released the last generation G4 iBook with a GPU equivalent to a base model PowerBook supported by Aperture. Aperture then worked fine on that iBook.

At the next point update, Apple updated the installer to exclude that iBook, just because.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Maybe they'll get around to fixing Time Machine Server.

That's an interesting problem, I think. I'm assuming that TM Server was meant to be run with OS X Client (although I'd have to check on this), and I'm fairly sure that TM is not recommended for use with OS X Server at all, rightfully so. Should this fix be just enough to make it a fulfilling product for home users, or should it be extended to support OS X Server and larger businesses, providing more in the way of features?

The underlying TM design is excellent, the GUI is excellent, the extent in which the implementation goes is sort of minimalist. Maybe it doesn't make a lick of sense to make it more than it was originally designed to be, but on the other hand, maybe it wouldn't hurt to make it a little more robust and useful?

Then again, maybe you wouldn't want TM running on such a crappy file system. I've been running ZFS on my Solaris server for a while now, and it has literally changed the way I think of my data. A ZFS snapshot takes literally a matter of seconds to run even on a large volume, this would be absolutely *awesome* to couple with Time Machine. I know that ZFS will never make it to OS X, but perhaps whatever Apple is working on will mimic this functionality? I wouldn't be surprised if Apple was able to pull in some ZFS developers around the time of the Oracle takeover of Sun.

Will Lion be the debut of a new long overdue Apple file system?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Upgrade cycle.

They have a habit of forcing hardware upgrades. One example is my last generation G4 iBook. iBooks weren't supported by Aperture, because of the GPU. Then Apple released the last generation G4 iBook with a GPU equivalent to a base model PowerBook. Aperture then worked fine on it.

At the next point update, Apple updated the installer specifically to exclude that iBook, just because.

Well, perhaps the 32 bit Intel Macs are underpowered in other ways, or perhaps like you said Apple will just want to force arbitrary upgrades, but would this run the risk of negative PR that could hurt Apple if this obsolescence is deemed purely arbitrary? With many of the past forced upgrades there was usually some sort of technical justification, if memory serves me correctly?

[Eug]

There is no good technical justification IMO to prevent OS X 10.5 from installing on a G4 800 iMac IMO. Yet 10.5 won't install on a G4 800 iMac.

So, I just hacked the install process and installed it on a G4 450 Cube and a G4 800 iMac anyway. Yeah, 10.5 is quite slow on a G4 450, but it felt faster on my G4 800 iMac than it did on my G4 1.07 iBook (because of the hard drive).

I guess the good news is that I got that G4 800 iMac for a song after 10.5 came out, because it was rendered obsolete by Apple with 10.5's arbitrary system requirements.

[besson3c]

Yeah, I'm not surprised... I take back what I said, perhaps 10.7 will drop support for 32 bit hardware, although it will be a very long time before 32 bit software goes away. In fact, it may never..

[Dork.]

Now that Apple and Disney have something in common, I wouldn't be surprised if 10.7 is named "Simba".

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That's an interesting problem, I think. I'm assuming that TM Server was meant to be run with OS X Client (although I'd have to check on this), and I'm fairly sure that TM is not recommended for use with OS X Server at all, rightfully so. Should this fix be just enough to make it a fulfilling product for home users, or should it be extended to support OS X Server and larger businesses, providing more in the way of features?

Yeah, it's broken on 10.6 Server (works fine with 10.5 Server.) In 10.6.x prior to 10.6.4, the server would hand when clients try to use Time Machine. Then in 10.6.4 the server no longer crashed, but the clients did.

10.6 clients can back up fine to 10.5 server, so I'm convinced it's a 10.6 server issue. I'm setting up a 10.5 server just for backup. Frustrating.

[besson3c]

I was hoping that 10.4 would have been codenamed "Good Buddy" so that people would say "ten four, good buddy!"

[Eug]

So, maybe resolution independence?!?!?

Insert requisite comment here about removal of debug code too. Oh and Teh Snappay®.

[besson3c]

All I want is a new file system, more Finder fixes (it's still not quite there), and for the default background picture to be a pony. I would also *love* sshfs support, I think this would be immensely useful with the several hosting providers that support SSH but not AFP/protected WebDAV.

I'm inclined to think that it's time that our operating systems go in a fully different direction though.

[Eug]

Here ya go.



Seriously though, I'd really like to get resolution independence. I find that some of the current crop of screens have too high a pixel density for my preference. In fact, I sometimes use my browsers slightly zoomed, which affects clarity for certain stuff, but without it on a 27" iMac, the fonts are quite small.

The 21.5" iMac has a more reasonable pixel density of 102 ppi, but the 27" packs all those pixels in with a density of 109 ppi, quite high.

The MacBook Pro is even higher, but people tend to have the screen on those much closer than they would with a 27" iMac.

[besson3c]

Awesome! It's a little washed out though, can you please fix that in Photoshop? Thanks! While you're there, no lens flare please.

[P]

I don't think they'll kill 32-bit x86, but they will kill Rosetta. They've been slowly deemphasizing it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Machines still had 32-bit EFI until well into 2007.

[lpkmckenna]

The turning Apple logo probably indicates a new MBA with swivel screen, which changes into an iOS device. Or maybe Lion has flippable windows like Dashboard widgets can?

I expect Apple will announce something in time for Xmas, like new iLife and iWork, or updated iMacs and laptops.

And the Lion sneak peak will include a feature-complete QuickTime X, resolution independence, a new file system, new FrontRow, and iChat with FaceTime.

We may also get a timeline and/or demo of Cocoa-based FinalCut Pro and Logic Pro.

[besson3c]

The more I think about it, the more I doubt that they will debut a new file system as the default. It might make its appearance, but it will be a while before it is deemed reliable enough to make it the default. It will probably debut as a use-at-your-own-risk sort of thing, if at all.

[Big Mac]

It's an obvious thing for this release, since most people agree it's time to go beyond HFS+. It could be phased in gradually.

Oh, remember too about that job posting referencing a revolutionary new Internet feature of a future version of OS X.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The turning Apple logo probably indicates a new MBA with swivel screen, which changes into an iOS device. Or maybe Lion has flippable windows like Dashboard widgets can

I highly doubt Apple would ever release any portable with swivel screen.

[Salty]

More likely would be a fully flippable hinge like the Motorola Backflip. I hate to say it but it is a good idea, it would also allow for a built in stand. It might seem a little funny to have the keyboard as the stand but I'm sure a sensor could tell where the stand was to turn off the keyboard.

That said I think the Air will maintain it's laptopness... unless it specifically moved to the exact same screen size as the iPad... which would be pretty freaking cool.

[imitchellg5]

You really think Apple would make something so janky?

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by P 

I don't think they'll kill 32-bit x86, but they will kill Rosetta. They've been slowly deemphasizing it.

That will mean the death of AppleWorks. Amazing that it continues to run on my 2009 Mac Pro under 10.6.4. I don't use it for anything but reading old documents, but once Rosetta is gone I can install it on my old Power Mac G4 running 10.5 (or even 9.2.2) for that.

EDIT: Before anyone suggests I should convert all my old documents now before Rosetta gets killed, I don't access them often enough for the amount of time it would require to do the conversion to be worthwhile.

[Doc HM]

I can't see them debuting a touch based OS any time soon. Neither will 10.7 take on any iOS look/feel. I would imagine the recent overhaul of Itunes to v10 contains more hints of how the UI will go than iOS4.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

I can't see them debuting a touch based OS any time soon. Neither will 10.7 take on any iOS look/feel. I would imagine the recent overhaul of Itunes to v10 contains more hints of how the UI will go than iOS4.

I can see Apple wanting to sort of eventually merge OS X with iOS so that separate development teams are not required, which would mean eventually making touch the default input method in OS X.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

That will mean the death of AppleWorks. Amazing that it continues to run on my 2009 Mac Pro under 10.6.4. I don't use it for anything but reading old documents, but once Rosetta is gone I can install it on my old Power Mac G4 running 10.5 (or even 9.2.2) for that.

EDIT: Before anyone suggests I should convert all my old documents now before Rosetta gets killed, I don't access them often enough for the amount of time it would require to do the conversion to be worthwhile.

No one should be relying on AppleWorks at this point, but there's other currently developed software that still relies on Rosetta. I was surprised to see the requirement when trying to launch Web Confidential - I can't understand why it hasn't gone native Intel yet.

I'd be surprised if Rosetta were dropped in 10.7. I don't think much development effort is required to keep it running, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm also sure that there's a lot of educational software that will never go Intel native, and I don't think Apple would want to orphan all those titles. But I could be wrong.

[Eug]

What kind of titles?

P.S. Isn't one of the installer apps of a big software suite (and older version, but one that runs natively on Intel) still something that requires Rosetta? I can't remember which suite though. Adobe CS3?

[Maflynn]

What are the odds that this may be the last version of OSX (in name only). I mean, I've read that the picture seems to imply a lion the king of the beasts. Perhaps after this they rebrand OSX as iOS desktop edition

[Big Mac]

They'd have to be pretty stupid to say something like iOS Desktop. iOS desktop implies a desktop version of the mobile iOS, and while I expect some convergence (perhaps replacing Dashboard with an iOS Apps interface) I don't think we'll ever see Macs turned into more powerful iPads. We could be skipping over OS X 10.8 and 10.9 to Mac OS XI, however.

[P]

I don't think Apple is dumping the Mac brand any time soon - if anything, they rely more on it now. No, it will remain Mac OS in some form, and I think something like "Mac OS X 11.0 Falcon" or something is more likely.

[Eug]

Why stop at iOS Desktop?

How about iOS Server, running on the iServe?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by P 

I don't think Apple is dumping the Mac brand any time soon - if anything, they rely more on it now. No, it will remain Mac OS in some form, and I think something like "Mac OS X 11.0 Falcon" or something is more likely.

think it's the birds next?

OS X Canary
OS X Thrush
OS X Raptor
OS X Albatros (this will be the last one before the iOS line is merged upwards)
iOS Phoenix will be the merged new full-use OS with touch interface
iOS Flamingo will be the refined version for the artsy creative folk.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

They'd have to be pretty stupid to say something like iOS Desktop. iOS desktop implies a desktop version of the mobile iOS, and while I expect some convergence (perhaps replacing Dashboard with an iOS Apps interface) I don't think we'll ever see Macs turned into more powerful iPads. We could be skipping over OS X 10.8 and 10.9 to Mac OS XI, however.

Why don't you think that Macs will eventually become more powerful iPads?

[olePigeon]

iOS should've been named Ocelot.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

They'd have to be pretty stupid to say something like iOS Desktop.

There was actually a news story/rumor about apple considering the brand change. It wasn't that iOS was going to be ported to the desktop, or OSX hamstrung in some ways just that they were looking to rebrand OSX and have a unified OS brand. It kind of makes sense, but only time will tell if that rumor fleshes out

[Salty]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You really think Apple would make something so janky?

No. But if they wanted to make a touch screen MacBook that would be the best way to do it by far. The swivel screen idea is just too cumbersome, and probably breakable.

What I'm amazed about is the fact that nobody is talking about what sort of new features they're hoping for out of iLife, iWork or Lion... I mean... really... are you all that content with your machines? I can't believe that MacNN users are truly content.

[Eug]

Like I said, resolution independence.

Oh and Blu-ray support from iMovie and iDVD, with Blu-ray drives in Macs. It'd also be nice if iMovie actually got rid of all the sucktitude that appeared post iMovie '06. ie. Maybe iMovie '11 will be what iMovie '08 should have been... only three years later.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Oh and Blu-ray support from iMovie and iDVD, with Blu-ray drives in Macs.

This won't happen.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

This won't happen.

Ever.