Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Enthusiast Zone > Art & Graphic Design > Converting Betacam SP to Mpeg2 (DVD) Question

Converting Betacam SP to Mpeg2 (DVD) Question
Thread Tools
turk.o
Forum Regular
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Olympia, WA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 28, 2004, 03:31 AM
 
Hi y'all, i'm new to the whole world of digital video, and i am going to be authoring a DVD for production. I feel in control of most aspects of the authoring, but the one thing i don't feel confident about is converting the video asset to Mpeg2.

The film master is a Betacam SP tape. I am only concerned with encoding it for DVD. I have a G5 Dual 2Ghz, plenty of internal storage on two drives, and a mini-dv camera. i have DVDSP3 and FCP4HD. i want to get the best quality i can with a limited budget. i am encoding about 160 minutes.

is it best to go straight from Beta SP to Mpeg2? how much better is it than going from Beta SP to DV, and then from the mini-DV tape into the computer and encode it there?

From what i have seen most houses that offer encoding are super expensive--about $10 a minute, it seems like it would be cheaper to by a basic digilink encoding card, rent a Beta SP deck and encode it myself.

so, any ideas? anything to look out for? any tips and info will be much appreciated. thanks!

t.o
     
brianb
Forum Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 29, 2004, 09:25 PM
 
Here is the way that I would look at encoding the footage. First I would start off with using an AJA I/O as the capture box. 3 things I like about this box.

1. It has all of the correct options for getting the best from you Beta... Component Video inputs and outputs. Balanced Audio in and out.

2. It has the proper Time Syncing capabilities. Grab a black burst and Hook it to the Beta Deck, I/O and your monitor and you will be good to go.

3. If you have to take the video from an analog source It will allow you to capture DV50 which will give you a 4:2:2 sampling of the video and give you the best capture you can expect from Beta. (will also allow proper Chroma Keying if that is a concern).

once you have it on your system you can do anything you want with the Mpg2 encode. Diffrent people on here will recommend diffrent encoders but I seem to find I can tweak Compressor to get very good encodes
Quicksilver 867, 700mhz iBook, 1st Gen iPod, iSight, Newton 2100, and a 128k Mac. All operating and used on a constant Basis
     
turk.o  (op)
Forum Regular
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Olympia, WA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 30, 2004, 04:36 PM
 
thanks for the reply. the only box i could find similar to the one you list was this one http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=282800 is that the one you are talking about? if so, it is way out of budget for this project.

if i take the video from the beta onto the computer as you recommend, what format would it be? uncompressed? DV? I have heard that compressing it once to DV and then compressing again mpeg2 is bad news and it is best to go straight from Beta-SP to Mpeg2 for best encoding results.

this might sound dumb, but would a box like this work? http://eshop.macsales.com/Item_Speci...m=ADSMACAV1750

i was skeptical because of the low cost and the USB, but i have read several reviews that say the encoding quality is excellent, and the USB connection can handle up to 6/Mbs encoding rate with no problem. but i think i might be missing something?

things like time code aren't important here, as the BetaSP tape are the masters of both films and do not need any editing, just a good transfer. thanks again, and i'm eager to hear your opinion,

t.o
     
brianb
Forum Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 30, 2004, 06:35 PM
 
That is the box that I was talking about.

I would not go with the USB option you were showing. If you don't need any editing I would say look for a Hardware MPg2 encoder that has componet inputs. I don't think that you will like taking the footage S-video and then converting it from DV25 or something like that. My main reason for suggesting the AJA box that I did is that you can get a very high quality DV50 encode.
Quicksilver 867, 700mhz iBook, 1st Gen iPod, iSight, Newton 2100, and a 128k Mac. All operating and used on a constant Basis
     
mikellanes
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Right Here.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 30, 2004, 11:10 PM
 
Well, to encode 160 min I definitely wouldn't charge that much, I am new to the game but have a Sonic encoding system and Beta SP deck to handle this. I would think only a few hundred would be reasonable $300-400 or so.

That is If you sent the exact specifications you needed (bit rates, dolby?, etc.) If you want me to futts around with bit rates, etc. or need a specific file size that may be more time.

I would say typical turn around is a couple days and I can provide a mpg2 file and a wav file for the audio. also a sample DVD of the video (auto play/looping) to check the quality of my files.

Sounds like a sales pitch I know, still I would look in to other vendors for this, there are a few places here in Florida who are pretty cheap, fedex the tapes to them and save some bucks.

Another way to go is to get the tape digitized in to Final Cut and dumped to DVD or a FW Drive. then do the compression yourself in compressor, etc. That way you have full control of the output.

I can do this for you if you like, price is negotiable, depending on the codec you need (that depends on what it was shot on) I can see how much storage it would take.
"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
- A Lincoln
     
mikellanes
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Right Here.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 30, 2004, 11:14 PM
 
Originally posted by turk.o:
is it best to go straight from Beta SP to Mpeg2? how much better is it than going from Beta SP to DV, and then from the mini-DV tape into the computer and encode it there?
Yes, always best to start from the best original source as possible.
"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
- A Lincoln
     
turk.o  (op)
Forum Regular
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Olympia, WA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 31, 2004, 01:19 AM
 
Originally posted by brianb:
That is the box that I was talking about.

I would not go with the USB option you were showing. If you don't need any editing I would say look for a Hardware MPg2 encoder that has componet inputs. I don't think that you will like taking the footage S-video and then converting it from DV25 or something like that. My main reason for suggesting the AJA box that I did is that you can get a very high quality DV50 encode.
but if i get a DV25 or DV50 encode, won't i have to encode that again to mpeg2, and thus compress the same video twice? i have read that doing so is very bad for quality. also, while i respect your opinion, i'd like you to let me know why you 'would not go with the USB option'. i'm ready to believe it is a bad idea, but i'd like some real reasons explained. the box can take s-video and convert it to 6mb/s mpeg2 on the fly, which seems like exactly what i need, and i've read some good reviews about the ncode quality at dv sites. so, seriously, i understand that i might be missing something, so please explain. thanks! t.o
     
brianb
Forum Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 31, 2004, 02:35 AM
 
Well short of the Fact that OWC seems to still have this unit in stock the company that makes it looks like they stop producing and supporting the mac version of this box.

Here is the biggest thing that I don't like about that box. No where does it say that is captures in the correct MPG2 standard for DVD authoring. THe spec on the box says it captures Broadcast D1 spec 720x480 mpg2 (2-15 mbps)

1. 720x480 is not D1 spec it is Broadcast DV spec. (D1 is 720x486, probably doesn't seem like a lot but it does matter)

2 the Mpg2 Standard for DVD max's out at 8.7 mbps. The higher bit rates to me suggest a muxxed mpg2 file that is meant for straight playback through a media player.

If the box doesn't capture the exact Mpg2 files with split video and audio you would still need to flip the video using thier software in some way anyway to get the DVD authoring done (granted this may be hidden in their software authoring program so that you don't realize it is happening)

Plus Video over USB in any shape or form that I have seen is usually pretty sketchy as the data rates that USB states are burst speeds and not sustained speeds like firewire. Which means that the possibility of dropped frames or failed captures goes up greatly.



As for your questions regarding re-compressing DV25 you are right there is more and more artifacts that can happen as you compress more and more. But look at the line of what you are doing. In a scale of video quailty.

Analog Beta Tape (medium video quality)

Mpeg2 (medium video quality) 4-8 mbits/s

DV25 video (medium quality, but crisper picture) 25mbits/s

DV50 video (Higher quality) 50mbits/s

Uncompressed ( Highest Standard Def quality) 21 mbytes/s


As you go up in the process of capture you are afforded with more leeway to play with the video with out making the Artifacts more obvious. So as you look at it you would be capturing to a higher level video and then compressing back down to the DVD so you wouldn't really notice the issue ( DVD of any nature if you look at them hard, have more artifacts than you might believe)

Where the whole compression and re-compressing comes into play is when you work with DV25 and then re-compress to DV25 multiple times that you will see the most artifacts on your final output when compared to the original source (same goes for DV50, Digibeta and so forth) Until you get to Uncompressed where you are working with RAW Video data all bits are there with no compression and you can do just about anything to the video and still be crisp clean and looking good.


Now that I have all of that out of the way here is my reasoning behind what I initially suggested. To me single purpose boxes are seldom worth the money you pay for them. No matter how cheap they are. The cheaper they are proportionally translates to how many problems you will run into. The AJA I/O box that I suggested is a high level device that will give you the ability to do many more things in the best possible scenarios. In addition it will give you high quality on the task you are looking to accomplish.

I may have made a bit of an error in not asking what your budgets were on this project. The second error I most likely made was the thought that since you said you were new to the world of Digital Video, Were using a Professional Source in Beta and were concerned with encoding costs, that you were in the business. Allowing for the purchase of a more professional piece of gear that would be an investment.

To sum it all up I don't think that you would be happy with a $100 solution to this project. Your best bet may be to bring the project to an outside source. By the way I do not think that $1600 to have 2 hours and 40 minutes professionally encoded is out of line.
If you do something like this more than once that $2000 investment doesn't seem so overly expensive.
Quicksilver 867, 700mhz iBook, 1st Gen iPod, iSight, Newton 2100, and a 128k Mac. All operating and used on a constant Basis
     
Feathers
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: South Pole
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jan 12, 2005, 05:00 PM
 
Originally posted by turk.o:
thanks for the reply. the only box i could find similar to the one you list was this one http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=282800 is that the one you are talking about? if so, it is way out of budget for this project.

if i take the video from the beta onto the computer as you recommend, what format would it be? uncompressed? DV? I have heard that compressing it once to DV and then compressing again mpeg2 is bad news and it is best to go straight from Beta-SP to Mpeg2 for best encoding results.

this might sound dumb, but would a box like this work? http://eshop.macsales.com/Item_Speci...m=ADSMACAV1750

i was skeptical because of the low cost and the USB, but i have read several reviews that say the encoding quality is excellent, and the USB connection can handle up to 6/Mbs encoding rate with no problem. but i think i might be missing something?

things like time code aren't important here, as the BetaSP tape are the masters of both films and do not need any editing, just a good transfer. thanks again, and i'm eager to hear your opinion,

t.o
I routinely run BetaSP from a UVP-1800 player that gives s-video out through the ADS USB Instant DVD for Mac.

Anybody who suggests taking a nice clean analog signal and capturing to DV and THEN software encoding to MPEG-2 is on some sick and silly drugs. MPEG-ing from an already compressed digital source (particularly DV) is a sure route to crapdom! Adding an intermediate stage is pointless. I challenge anybody to spot the difference between my BETA to ADS USB Box solution and a DV Capture and software encode even with a nice Codec like Bitvice. Not to mention that a hardware solution of any kind happens in real time. Recently, I got a BVW50 but unfortunately it doesn't do s-video out, only composite and component so even taking an icky composite feed through the ADS still gives pretty good results. One note of caution, the bundle software trys the patience a bit but for the dinero, it's more than worth it in time saved!
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:05 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,