[The Godfather]

I mean, if they are really the reason of their bad performance.

Union, GM take break from marathon contract talks - CNN.com

The article reads that union leaders are willing to rollback benefits, in exchange for guarantee of future work. It sounds like a golden opportunity for the 3 automakers to buy their way out the union worker monopoly.

Why can't the US-based automakers "steal" workers from the Honda and Accord US plants?

[Sky Captain]

The "big three" still have their butts on their shoulders on what Americans want out of and automobile and the unions won't be happy until every facet of American automobile manufacturing is off of American soil.
GM call their products North American instead of American now.
Why? Because they're manufactured in Mexico and Canada.
Let them shrivel on the vine.
Hundai, Toyota and Nissan will employ Americans.
An American worker assembling a car for a paycheck is more important than an investor demanding a dividend to me any day.

[OldManMac]

I find it interesting that some blame the unions for the current conditions of the "Big Three," when, in fact, it is managements' fault. Management is in charge of making the appropriate decisions to ensure the company's long term survival and growth, not the unions. For decades, management gave in to unions' demands, because these companies were raking in big bucks, and management was getting fat and happy, along with the unions, yet, when nobody wants to buy their cars, it suddenly becomes the unions' fault.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

The "big three" still have their butts on their shoulders on what Americans want out of and automobile and the unions won't be happy until every facet of American automobile manufacturing is off of American soil.
GM call their products North American instead of American now.
Why? Because they're manufactured in Mexico and Canada.
Let them shrivel on the vine.
Hundai, Toyota and Nissan will employ Americans.
An American worker assembling a car for a paycheck is more important than an investor demanding a dividend to me any day.

Buy a Tundra, it's built by Americans in America.

So called "Japanese" cars are more American than mostly everything the Big Three puts out.

[Sky Captain]

The unions killed all on site manufacturing at Lockheed.
And assembly is disappearing also.
Because of unions.
The unions are no better then big business management.
The union only cares about union dues and who's the union boss.
And they don't care if the workers suffer at the unions own greed.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

The unions killed all on site manufacturing at Lockheed.
And assembly is disappearing also.
Because of unions.
The unions are no better then big business management.
The union only cares about union dues and who's the union boss.
And they don't care if the workers suffer at the unions own greed.

No, it's because management capitulated to the unions. At the end of the day, management is supposed to be running the company. If I go to my boss and demand a raise and he gives it to me, he can't then say that it's my fault the company went under, because I was paid too much. Of course the unions are in it for their own good; that doesn't change the fact that it's management's responsibility to ensure the company survives. There's no way around that.

[Sky Captain]

The Union killed Eastern Airlines
Completely.
Single handedly.

[OldManMac]

So you're saying that management wasn't managing?

[Sky Captain]

Oh the management was managing.
It cost less to shut the airline down then to bend to the unreasonable demands of the union.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

The unions killed all on site manufacturing at Lockheed.
And assembly is disappearing also.
Because of unions.
The unions are no better then big business management.
The union only cares about union dues and who's the union boss.
And they don't care if the workers suffer at the unions own greed.

Why do you start all sentences (and sentence fragments) on a new line? Just wondering...

[idjeff]

There is a time and a place for unions...just not all the time and not every place.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do you start all sentences (and sentence fragments) on a new line? Just wondering...

The same reason you make posts like this in the middle of a discussion. (PVT msgs are cool)

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do you start all sentences (and sentence fragments) on a new line? Just wondering...

It's the way I think?
It's from the habit of absorbing and issueing information as a pilot I suppose.
Everything is succinct on the flightdeck. It has to be. Information comes at you fast.
And there's no time for explinations, just instructions.

[smacintush]

Yes, it's all management's fault…

No, wait, it's all the unions' fault…

Nope, couldn't be both. No way.

[Dakarʒ]

I blame whoever designs these cars.

[Kevin]

"these cars" meaning Ford/GM/Chrysler?

For one Chyrsler has been known to be on the cutting edge of design as far as car design goes. They set a lot of trends that some other highly astute manufacturers would never admit to following even though they do.

I've always liked the Dodge/Chrysler line. They make cars for people that like to DRIVE.

Even their low end car the Neon (well it's not being made anymore..._) was called revolutionary because of the cab forward design and good power to weight ratio for it's class, and it's ability to handle that was compared to cars costing much much more than it did. That is why it was so popular with the SCAA racing crowd.

The PT Cruiser came out, and now you see everyone trying to copy it. (The turbo version of this car is fun!)

I am actually thinking about acquiring a 2004 Dodge SRT-4 and making it look like a regular Neon. Just to mess with the riceboys and even the Mustang/Camaro owners.

That would be a PERFECT sleeper. The only thing I don't like about it, it's a sedan.

But that just ads to the sleeper effect.

I wont even go into how awesome the 300 series looks. Or their new magnums.. I could go on..

And 2008 is bringing more goodies. Esp now that they aren't owned by people that just wanted their money.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do you start all sentences (and sentence fragments) on a new line? Just wondering...

He's Frank Costanza, George's father.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Oh the management was managing.
It cost less to shut the airline down then to bend to the unreasonable demands of the union.

What about taking paycuts on a multi-million dollar a year salary?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

"these cars" meaning Ford/GM/Chrysler?

For one Chyrsler has been known to be on the cutting edge of design as far as car design goes. They set a lot of trends that some other highly astute manufacturers would never admit to following even though they do.

I've always liked the Dodge/Chrysler line. They make cars for people that like to DRIVE.

Even their low end car the Neon (well it's not being made anymore..._) was called revolutionary because of the cab forward design and good power to weight ratio for it's class, and it's ability to handle that was compared to cars costing much much more than it did. That is why it was so popular with the SCAA racing crowd.

The PT Cruiser came out, and now you see everyone trying to copy it. (The turbo version of this car is fun!)

I am actually thinking about acquiring a 2004 Dodge SRT-4 and making it look like a regular Neon. Just to mess with the riceboys and even the Mustang/Camaro owners.

That would be a PERFECT sleeper. The only thing I don't like about it, it's a sedan.

But that just ads to the sleeper effect.

I wont even go into how awesome the 300 series looks. Or their new magnums.. I could go on..

And 2008 is bringing more goodies. Esp now that they aren't owned by people that just wanted their money.

For the past 20 years I've been consistently more impressed with international styling to domestic styling. If it weren't for SUVs and truck sales, I wonder how much earlier this would have happened.

And to be honest, I've been disappointed with all car styling this decade (Though it is showing signs of picking up here towards the end).

Edit: What PT Cruiser clones are you talking about?

[Kevin]

For the past 20 years I've been consistently more impressed with international styling to domestic styling. If it weren't for SUVs and truck sales, I wonder how much earlier this would have happened.

And to be honest, I've been disappointed with all car styling this decade (Though it is showing signs of picking up here towards the end).

Throughout the 90s and early 2ks Chrysler has gotten design awards.. so I don't know what to say..

Edit: What PT Cruiser clones are you talking about?

For one example, the Chevrolet HHR.

The Honda Element and Scion xB have also been compared to the PT. All three came out shortly after the success of the PT.

But the HHR is the most blatant copy.

GM also used the Neon's body look to make the new Cavaliers and Sunfires. The went away from the blocky design, and pretty much copied the Neon's upper flow and lines and put a different front to it.

Heck the lights on the back of the new Cobalts Chevy makes look like Neon lights. I've had people confuse the two cars.

At the time when imports were putting in 100-125hp engines in their compact cars and calling them "rocket" and "zippy" Dodge was putting in 135-160hp engine in even lighter cars.

The Honda boys would brag "As soon as V-tech kicks in though it doesn't matter" Vtech was mostly for gas saving. And has a SMALL power band. Where the DOHC engine Dodge used (Same one the Mitzubishi Eclipse used for years.. and it was Chrysler designed) had a larger high rev band.

Another reasons the Neons were so popular with the mod crowd. With less than $1000 ad-ons you could get a Neon that did 13s/14s in the quarter mile.

The SRT-4 just ruled for the price. Too bad Dailmer didn't make anything to replace it.

That will be coming back soon. Or something just like it now they don't own it.

[Kevin]

Dang I guess this is what is replacing the SRT-4 for now.

Dodge unloads the 300-hp Caliber SRT-4 - Autoblog

Bleh.. but it's got PLENTY of speed. And it's only a 4banger.

300hp baby.

"Our minds are still reeling at the thought of pushing 300-hp through the front wheels of an “econobox” to comment too much on the new Dodge Caliber SRT-4. It’s quite frankly mind boggling, though not that surprising from the speed freaks at Dodge’s SRT division.

it produces 125 hp per liter of displacement with a total output of 300 hp and 260 lb-ft of torque. Umm… wow. Just wow.

The prodigious amount of power provided by the turbocharged 2.4L VVT “World Engine” is chopped up and served by a six-speed manual and delivered via the front wheels, which has to be one scary fun sub-six-second ride to 60.

The company says in its release that the mission of SRT is to provide benchmark performance for the best price, so we’ll be eager to find out later today what that means in terms of dollars and cents. Either way, the first shocker of the 2006 Chicago Auto Show goes to Dodge.

Looks fugly and europeanish though.



You simply cannot buy an import with that much power to price ratio.

I've driven an SRT-4 Neon, and PT Cruiser Turbo. They are a BLAST.

I was gonna sell my 99 Neon R/T, but i think I am just gonna get it made to look like a normal older Neon, and slap a turbo in it.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Throughout the 90s and early 2ks Chrysler has gotten design awards.. so I don't know what to say.

Actually, I've always had a warm spot in my heart for Dodge. Their resurgence in 90s was founded on a very nice line and a good marketing campaign. The Avenger, Intrepid, Stealth... I thought they were cool. So you make a good case there. But not so much for the other brands then? The second rev Ford Probe was the only other American car I can remember having a soft spot for.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

For one example, the Chevrolet HHR.

Thanks. Ugg. It's even uglier, too.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The Honda Element and Scion xB have also been compared to the PT. All three came out shortly after the success of the PT.

I'm not sure what qualifies them as clones since I really don't see any resemblance to the Cruiser. Though the xB is also hideous.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

it produces 125 hp per liter of displacement

Wow, that IS very impressive.

I've always liked Mopar cars too, my old Intrepid was a beast.

That car is daaaaamn ugly though. If it wasn't for the 300 Dodge would have the ugliest lineup of cars on the market.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Actually, I've always had a warm spot in my heart for Dodge. Their resurgence in 90s was founded on a very nice line and a good marketing campaign. The Avenger, Intrepid, Stealth... I thought they were cool. So you make a good case there. But not so much for the other brands then? The second rev Ford Probe was the only other American car I can remember having a soft spot for.

Yeah I almost bought a Probe GT. But it's basically a Mazda MX-6. So I'd be paying for import parts for the most part. And I didn't want to do that.

Originally Posted by sek929 

That car is daaaaamn ugly though. If it wasn't for the 300 Dodge would have the ugliest lineup of cars on the market.

Thats because I believe the 300 was in design before the merger. Wait till the next few years. Now that Chrysler/Dodge isn't owned by someone that has no interest in the company.

[Sherman Homan]

At risk of a thread zombie, the UAW has gone on strike for the first time since 1970 against GM. I don't get it, this will kill them both.
Tactics from 1970 don't fit '07 reality

[OreoCookie]

The Big Three's real problem is that their cars don't sell. Problems will unions may make it worse, but that isn't the root cause. GM has dug its own grave for a long time, who gives them the slight push doesn't really matter in the end.

[BadKosh]

Other than the engines, trannies and tires, they should start all over again with the designs. Everything they "know" is wrong now. Same goes for the unions, still stuck in the 1960's.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The Big Three's real problem is that their cars don't sell. Problems will unions may make it worse, but that isn't the root cause. GM has dug its own grave for a long time, who gives them the slight push doesn't really matter in the end.

We have a winner, folks! Unfortunately, some will still blame the unions, as they don't understand who is supposed to run the company and make the final decisions at to its direction and sustainability.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan 

At risk of a thread zombie, the UAW has gone on strike for the first time since 1970 against GM. I don't get it, this will kill them both.

No, the govt will bail out GM before that happens.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan 

At risk of a thread zombie, the UAW has gone on strike for the first time since 1970 against GM. I don't get it, this will kill them both.
Tactics from 1970 don't fit '07 reality

Not true.

CNN - End of GM strike brings sighs of relief - July 28, 1998

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by peeb 

No, the govt will bail out GM before that happens.

GM could H1B their Mexico and Canada workers for the US plants. They'd get labor certification for those visas in a millisecond.

After all, we are talking about 70k vacancies which legal residents aren't willing to take.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The Big Three's real problem is that their cars don't sell. Problems will unions may make it worse, but that isn't the root cause. GM has dug its own grave for a long time, who gives them the slight push doesn't really matter in the end.

Their cars don't sell? WTH? I'll have to tell that to the local dealers around here that are loaded with money that sell said cars. So they can go into bankruptcy.

Some of the most richest business are just your local area domestic car dealerships. They have obnoxious money to burn. Having dealt with the advertising end of the biz I've seen what car dealerships pay out the rear yearly in advertising. They call it chump change.

So to say they don't sell isn't really that close to the truth. The domestic car dealerships around here make more than the import ones.

All depending on where you live.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

All depending on where you live.

I'm not sure what planet you live on, but at least in the US, the Big Three have continually lost market share to (mostly) Japanese manufacturers. They build cars that Americans like to look at or brag about, but they increasingly buy `foreign' products (which are often produced in America by Americans for Americans). Their stocks have been officially deemed `junk bonds' since 2005. So yes, GM (Ford and Chrysler) are doing badly and their main problem is that they sell less and less vehicles.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by osiris 

What about taking paycuts on a multi-million dollar a year salary?

A few executive salaries are nothing compared with the collective salaries of all the unionized employees.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not sure what planet you live on, but at least in the US, the Big Three have continually lost market share to (mostly) Japanese manufacturers.

They have lost the GRASP they once had on the market. That doesn't mean their cars aren't selling. Or that no profit is being mad. Quite the opposite. There will ALWAYS be people that simply wont buy imported cars. And there will be ALWAYS people wanting cheaper than import prices. Until imports can MATCH price for price with US car companies the US car companies have nothing to worry about. I can usually get more bang per buck buying domestic. I and my dad both have owned imported cars throughout our lives. They hold up just as good as our domestics. It's all on HOW you take care of them. People who tend to spend MORE for things end up taking more CARE of them. For example, your typical generic PC tower isn't babied. Yet Mac towers are. Why? You payed a lot of money for it. You can get a domestic car with actually MORE power and features than you can an import for 5k less. Back when Honda was bragging about their "zippy" civic the US was making economy cars with 30+ more HP and the same features for almost 7k less then the Civic. I know I was looking into getting a Si. I had my heart SET on it. Till I did some fact checking, and number crunching. The Honda NAME is just not worth 7k to me. Both the Cavalier Z24, Sunfire, and Neon had more horsepower and torque than the Civic. Even ones with V-tech! I test drove one, and just had more fun driving the domestics. The Civic was boring and simply didn't handle as well. (I know they have improved them since.. but this was around 97)

They build cars that Americans like to look at or brag about, but they increasingly buy `foreign' products (which are often produced in America by Americans for Americans).

Who is this they? Most all of the imports I have seen, unless we get past the 40k mark are ugly. and I refuse to pay more than 25k for a car.

Their stocks have been officially deemed `junk bonds' since 2005. So yes, GM (Ford and Chrysler) are doing badly and their main problem is that they sell less and less vehicles.

You said they weren't selling vehicles though. And I am telling you they are. The local GM dealer is the BIGGEST dealership in this area. And it's the one that has the most $$$.

All depends on where you live. Again, the US car market will never die. Now that Chrysler is owned by someone not just interested in draining it of it's money, we will see some new interesting things.

[Kevin]

BTW GM is reaching a deal, the strike is all but over.

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/s...4/daily21.html

[OreoCookie]

@Kevin
GM is not making any profit at the moment. I haven't said that they aren't selling any cars, I've said that they are losing market share -- fast. You don't have to convince me that there are American cars that are nice and that there are people who buy them. Or that there are GM dealerships that still make a buck. Or that you prefer `American' cars to `imports' (which are often made in the US).

So what you say has little to do with the actual reality at GM (or Ford, for that matter), just have a look at their balance sheet (they haven't reached junk bond status for nothing, in 2005, they posted a loss of $10.6 billion). GM is doing badly and there is a clear correlation to the gas price. GM and Ford still subscribe to the ancient `there is no replacement for displacement' mantra. Which is true until you actually look at the facts.

GM does make good cars and there are parts of GM that actually make money (GM's German division, Opel, is a good example). As a matter of fact, the Vectra platform has been given to GM and it is (AFAIK) now sold in the US.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

A few executive salaries are nothing compared with the collective salaries of all the unionized employees.

Non-unionized (Japanese auto manufacturer) employees in North America make similar money AFAIK. However it's probably also true that the efficiencies and worker productivity (and work satisfaction) is higher amongst the non-unionized.

However, I do agree that the CEOs often make too much money. For example, the combined salaries of Ford, Chrysler, and GM CEOs added up about 25 million in 2006. On average, even if each CEO took a $3 million pay cut, they'd still be making over $5 million each. $9 million pays for an awful lot of stuff.

---

P.S. I've never understood the argument by some that it must be "something else" because North American cars are "made for drivers". Well maybe, but a heckuvalot of drivers are driving so-called imports.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

However, I do agree that the CEOs often make too much money. For example, the combined salaries of Ford, Chrysler, and GM CEOs added up about 25 million in 2006. On average, even if each CEO took a $3 million pay cut, they'd still be making over $5 million each. $9 million pays for an awful lot of stuff.

I never understood why people are so quick to criticize CEO salaries, yet never utter a peep about Hollywood salaries. Managing the extracting, transport, refining, and distribution of oil/gasoline globally is much more important to society than acting in a single movie. Yet the ExxonMobil CEO is portrayed as greedy while Brad Pitt is glamorized.

Leave the CEO salary decisions up to the respective companies' owners. They know a lot more of what's required to do the job than we do, and they know what types of compensation packages they have to offer to attract the appropriate talent to fill those positions.

[peeb]

Erm, actually, the owners rarely get an effective say in CEO salaries - it's a corrupt old-boys' network for the most part.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

I never understood why people are so quick to criticize CEO salaries, yet never utter a peep about Hollywood salaries. Managing the extracting, transport, refining, and distribution of oil/gasoline globally is much more important to society than acting in a single movie. Yet the ExxonMobil CEO is portrayed as greedy while Brad Pitt is glamorized.

I've often said actors are paid WAY too much. However, this thread is not about actors.

Leave the CEO salary decisions up to the respective companies' owners. They know a lot more of what's required to do the job than we do, and they know what types of compensation packages they have to offer to attract the appropriate talent to fill those positions.

[Kevin]

OreoCookie, I guess in the next 3 years we will see what Chrysler brings us.

US made cars are FAR from being dead. Or not selling.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

OreoCookie, I guess in the next 3 years we will see what Chrysler brings us.

US made cars are FAR from being dead. Or not selling.

I know I wouldn't buy anything with a 4.7liter in it.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...TO01/708310400

It just so happens that these "faulty parts" came from our plant and in fact I am involved with production of these parts right now. Technically they were "out of spec" but you wouldn't believe just how insignificant of a dimension we are talking about. Literally a few MICRONS in a place that DOESN'T COME INTO CONTACT WITH ANYTHING. We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to "fix" this problem and lo and behold their engine problems still persist. These idiots have designed a piss poor engine and they STILL won't admit that it's their fault.

I know, It may not be very interesting to all of you but we have dealt with Ford, GM Nissan and Daimler Chrysler and DC is by FAR the biggest bunch of douche-bags IMO.

[MyMac8MyPC]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

US made cars are FAR from being dead. Or not selling.

I agree 110%

[peeb]

The US is SO far behind the rest of the world in terms of efficiency. US car manufacturers need to move into the small, affordable diesel hybrids before the Chinese get their acts together.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The US is SO far behind the rest of the world in terms of efficiency.

The US likes our power to weight ratio. Until something can give the same ratio as the engines we have now, it wont change.

We do lots of LONG distance traveling. And little 4-banger small cars get blown all over the road. But are great for in-town travel.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The US likes our power to weight ratio. Until something can give the same ratio as the engines we have now, it wont change.

We do lots of LONG distance traveling. And little 4-banger small cars get blown all over the road. But are great for in-town travel.

That attitude is the reason that US car manufacturers are in trouble.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by peeb 

That attitude is the reason that US car manufacturers are in trouble.

UM, that makes no sense. If that is what the consumers want, and that is what they bring them, how does that = trouble?

[peeb]

Because the blanket assertion that that is what customers want does not correlated to what they will buy in the future. The US is not positioned to defend against eastern car manufacturers coming to market in 5-10 years with cheap efficient cars. They are going to get creamed because they are running businesses which can't move on from making muscle cars.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The US is SO far behind the rest of the world in terms of efficiency. US car manufacturers need to move into the small, affordable diesel hybrids before the Chinese get their acts together.

I dont think diesel engines run clean enough to pass California smell tests. The issue is purely efficiency, its that we like our engines big on horsepower, and "OK" on gas consumption, so any gains in efficiency are made to add more power to the engine.
Thats what the people want. Either way, CAFE standards will push automakers (Foreign and domestic) to lower the HP and increase the mileage on new cars (or make cars lighter and smaller). Things will work itself out, no need to worry.

Im about to purchase my second American car. Price is the main factor, and even moreso when you consider that the Big 3 dealerships often sell cars at invoice.