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U.S. MUST go metric!! (Page 2)
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Kerrigan
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Apr 11, 2009, 11:47 PM
 
I have to admit, I am considering switching from the Mayan calendar to something a little more modern. I've noticed that it runs out soon.
     
dzp111  (op)
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Apr 11, 2009, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
I have to admit, I am considering switching from the Mayan calendar to something a little more modern. I've noticed that it runs out soon.
Ah yes, the Mayan cal.

CYA!!!


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CharlesS
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Apr 12, 2009, 12:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
WTF ? Only in Amaraca do they measure butter (and other ingredients) in measurements of length.
Well, to be honest, I've never heard of that myself. All the recipes I've ever seen have called for butter in either tablespoons or fractions of a cup.

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Spheric Harlot
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Apr 12, 2009, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
Apart from the amusement factor, I don't see why the rest of the world cares about this.
Do you know what good tools cost?

Do you know how unfathomably STUPID it is to have to maintain two sets of good tools - one for the civilized world, and one for Imperial measurement devices? Screw heads, hex, torx; hell, I even have to specially order Imperial-THREADED screws for my US gear, since accidentally using a normal screw will strip the threads.

Oddly, I had to scour the hardware stores on a visit to NYC a few years ago to find Imperial hex drivers - pretty much all your hex screws apparently have metric heads. WTF? I mean, if you're gonna be baroque, at least be ****ing consistent.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 12, 2009, 12:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by SeSawaya View Post
Cubits and Spans are all I use, the rest of you can bug off with your mumbo jumbo witch craft measurements....
Oh, now you're fibbing.

Everybody knows drummers only count to "four and".
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 12, 2009, 12:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
You seem to suggest the two don't mix. That simply isn't true, in my experience. I find myself having to convert between metric and imperial every couple days.
So you're using the definition of "not mixing" (finding yourself having to convert between the two all the time) to explain how they are, in fact, mixing?

If they were mixing, you wouldn't be converting.
     
CreepDogg
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Apr 12, 2009, 12:45 AM
 
Well, one thing I know is where I live, metric sucks for weather (temperature). The general range is:

Fahrenheit: 0-100 (more or less)
Celsius: minus-18 to 38. wtf?

Which one would you rather deal with?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 12, 2009, 01:06 AM
 
0 is freezing. By definition.

At least that makes a marginal amount of sense.

Especially since MOST people on this planet actually DON'T live where you live.
     
EndlessMac
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Apr 12, 2009, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Well, one thing I know is where I live, metric sucks for weather (temperature). The general range is:

Fahrenheit: 0-100 (more or less)
Celsius: minus-18 to 38. wtf?

Which one would you rather deal with?
It goes back to the discussion about what a person is used to. I live in America too and I'm used to Fahrenheit but 32 F for freezing is not what I would call intuitive. If water is frozen it shouldn't have a plus temperature. Zero Celsius makes a whole lot more sense. If you grew up with Celsius then your range wouldn't be all that weird.

Actually I would assume people who are used to Celsius would say WTF why would frozen water have a positive temperature usually meaning that it's warm? Intuition would tell you that the freezing point should start at zero because that would make more logical sense. As someone has mentioned above the Imperial system seems more arbitrary and it makes sense to us Americans because we grew up with it.
( Last edited by EndlessMac; Apr 12, 2009 at 01:57 AM. )
     
Tiresias
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Apr 12, 2009, 02:09 AM
 
What about international safety standards? Surely all aviation measurements, for example, are metric. Otherwise, confusion could lead to disaster.
     
mattyb
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Apr 12, 2009, 04:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
F***ing useless tradition.

Same as why the Brits still use separate faucets for hot and cold water.

-t
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mattyb
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Apr 12, 2009, 04:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
What about international safety standards? Surely all aviation measurements, for example, are metric. Otherwise, confusion could lead to disaster.
I'm probably wrong, but didn't the construction of Concorde happen when the UK was imperial and the French was metric? Spheric Harlot?
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Apr 12, 2009, 07:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Well, one thing I know is where I live, metric sucks for weather (temperature). The general range is:

Fahrenheit: 0-100 (more or less)
Celsius: minus-18 to 38. wtf?

Which one would you rather deal with?
Uhhhh... the one that tells me when there's going to be snow and not water outside?

Wow, your logic just made no sense at all. I was in Maine a couple months ago and it was -10 or something. What does that do to your temperature scale?

Or I suppose you think it's just where you live that should keep the oh-so-convenient" "1-100 Fahrenheit scale"? And maybe just for checking the temperature outside and not boiling water?

*shakes head*

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
So you're using the definition of "not mixing" (finding yourself having to convert between the two all the time) to explain how they are, in fact, mixing?

If they were mixing, you wouldn't be converting.
Needs the context of what I was responding to.

greg
( Last edited by ShortcutToMoncton; Apr 12, 2009 at 11:23 AM. )
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goMac
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Apr 12, 2009, 07:09 PM
 
No. $5 .3 Meterlong just wouldn't have the same ring to it.
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turtle777
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Apr 12, 2009, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
No. $5 .3 Meterlong just wouldn't have the same ring to it.
Oh, now that we're down to this, what sounds better:

My **** is 6 inch long, or 15 cm ?

-t
     
ghporter
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Apr 12, 2009, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Oh, now that we're down to this, what sounds better:

My **** is 6 inch long, or 15 cm ?

-t
Robin Williams talked about that in his album "Throbbing Python of Love" WAY back in 1983. Think of it, doesn't "a hundred and twenty!" sound a lot better than the Imperial alternative?

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turtle777
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Apr 12, 2009, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Robin Williams talked about that in his album "Throbbing Python of Love" WAY back in 1983. Think of it, doesn't "a hundred and twenty!" sound a lot better than the Imperial alternative?
I just wish my parents had let me listen to Robin Williams when I was in grade school

-t
     
CreepDogg
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Apr 12, 2009, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
0 is freezing. By definition.

At least that makes a marginal amount of sense.

Especially since MOST people on this planet actually DON'T live where you live.
Originally Posted by EndlessMac
It goes back to the discussion about what a person is used to. I live in America too and I'm used to Fahrenheit but 32 F for freezing is not what I would call intuitive. If water is frozen it shouldn't have a plus temperature. Zero Celsius makes a whole lot more sense. If you grew up with Celsius then your range wouldn't be all that weird.

Actually I would assume people who are used to Celsius would say WTF why would frozen water have a positive temperature usually meaning that it's warm? Intuition would tell you that the freezing point should start at zero because that would make more logical sense. As someone has mentioned above the Imperial system seems more arbitrary and it makes sense to us Americans because we grew up with it.
Depends on your definition. Seems just as arbitrary as anything else to me.

The ambient temperature often goes below the point where water freezes. Why does that automatically mean the number should be negative? All it has bearing on is the form in which precipitation falls - it has no bearing on one's ability to tolerate the weather or not. I maintain a general range of 0-100 is more useful. Yes - sometimes it still goes below zero and sometimes it goes above 100. It means it's effing cold or effing hot. Get over it.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Wow, your logic just made no sense at all. I was in Maine a couple months ago and it was -10 or something. What does that do to your temperature scale?
It means it's effing cold. How does that not make sense?

Or I suppose you think it's just where you live that should keep the oh-so-convenient" "1-100 Fahrenheit scale"? And maybe just for checking the temperature outside and not boiling water?
Yes. I would be fine if we just kept the scale where I am and everyone else chose to make things less relevant.

I don't get your last point - are you saying that different scales might be more or less relevant for different purposes? If so, um, yeah, that's exactly the point. There are imperial measurements that are well-suited to certain purposes. It's all arbitrary, so why not use the scale best-suited to the purpose?
     
dzp111  (op)
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Apr 12, 2009, 09:48 PM
 
Case and point for not calculating but to simply 'know'...

Air Canada Flight 143, 1983. Captain Pearson made a slight error in his fuel calculations.

When you multiply liters by 1.77, you convert them into pounds, not kilograms (to convert a liter to a kilogram, you multiply by 0.8). Flight 143 had 20,302 pounds of fuel in its tanks when it left Montreal, not 20,302 kilograms. And since one pound weighs less than half a kilogram, Flight 143 had less than half the fuel it needed to where it was going (Winnipeg).

The 767 jet landed (gliding) safely without fuel, but many lessons were learned that night.

As for temperature? 0 degrees Celsius is freezing, more is not and less is colder.

I do have a problem with weight. A pound of butter is good, and a 3/4 ton truck I understand. Also a 350 horsepower engine I get, a 3.3 liter I don't.. I also appreciate miles per gallon rather than kilometers per liters.

Also notice that there are very few decimals in the metrics. I'm 162 centimeters tall and not 1.62 meters. I just got that in my head now.

And my thingy is 18 cm and not 6". Cool.

Mixing works -I do it all the time. Calculations are needless complications. Knowing is good.

Also, it's more fun going 100 kilometers per hour than going 60 miles per hour. Seems faster.





Apparently, the best way to learn metric is not to calculate, it's just knowing.
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Laminar
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Apr 12, 2009, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
I do have a problem with weight. A pound of butter is good, and a 3/4 ton truck I understand. Also a 350 horsepower engine I get, a 3.3 liter I don't.. I also appreciate miles per gallon rather than kilometers per liters.
And more than liters per 100 km.

And my thingy is 18 cm and not 6". Cool.
18cm is 7".
     
hayesk
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Apr 12, 2009, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
Do they use imperial units in other countries for construction projects? It seems like they wouldn't, if they use the metric system for everything else.
In Canada, tape measures are typically marked with metric and imperial, but they still often use Imperial. Although there's no reason they couldn't. It doesn't really matter if feet divide by half, quarters, and thirds. It's just as easy to measure a board in either system.
     
hayesk
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Apr 12, 2009, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I can handle Metric measurements without much problem, but it's taken me a concentrated effort over literally decades to be able to get it right. Long distances are still a chore-I would rather think of car trips in how many hours on the road than to think of them in either miles or kilometers.
Then metric is your friend. Considering most highways in Canada have a maximum speed limit of 100km/h - it's pretty easy to figure out that to drive 450km would take 4 and a half hours. If I asked you how long it would take to drive 280 miles, it would take much longer to figure out.
     
Tiresias
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Apr 12, 2009, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
And my thingy is 18 cm and not 6". Cool.
Big deal.

Mine is 68 mm.
     
dzp111  (op)
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Apr 12, 2009, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
18cm is 7".
Cooler!

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turtle777
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Apr 12, 2009, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
Big deal.

Mine is 68 mm.
Oh, hence the nick ?

-t
     
Tiresias
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Apr 12, 2009, 11:04 PM
 
Pfft. The average toothpick is a mere 50 mm.
     
SeSawaya
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Apr 13, 2009, 12:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Oh, now you're fibbing.

Everybody knows drummers only count to "four and".
okay, you got me. As long as I know where 1 is, I'm good.
     
Andy8
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Apr 13, 2009, 03:06 AM
 
oops - i need corrective lenses finally i think!
( Last edited by Andy8; Apr 13, 2009 at 09:08 AM. Reason: Spheric beat me)
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 13, 2009, 04:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
A pound of butter is good,
We have metric pounds - 0.5 kg.

Butter is generally sold as 250g, or half a pound.

Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
Also a 350 horsepower engine I get, a 3.3 liter I don't.
Those are completely different things. AFAIK, you obsoletists ( ) measure displacement in gallons, not horsepower.

Horsepower is horsepower (measuring power in kilowatts makes a lot more sense, apparently, but horsepower is so entrenched over here as well - so Euro tech specs still always give both).

Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
I also appreciate miles per gallon rather than kilometers per liters.
Miles per gallon is useful for comparing cars against other cars, and for figuring out how far you can get given a certain amount of fuel (not that having that figured in "miles" and "gallons" is useful at all, but you get what I mean ).

Liters/km is useful for comparing cars against other cars, and for figuring out how much fuel you're going to need for a certain distance (and thus, how much it's gonna cost you to drive there, vs. say train or flight).

FAR more useful in everyday life IME.

Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
Also notice that there are very few decimals in the metrics. I'm 162 centimeters tall and not 1.62 meters. I just got that in my head now.
This makes no sense to me.

You ARE 1.62 m tall. You are also 1620 mm tall. It's completely irrelevant which you choose to say, because anybody you talk to will instantly be able to convert. (In Germany, it's normal to state tallness in m.)
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 13, 2009, 04:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andy8 View Post
*ahem*

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
After having gone through all the trouble of switching over to metric in the past 150 years?

Heck, I'm sure NASA can just keep shooting probes at Mars - what's one more or less?
     
hwojtek
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
The current system is fine for all other purposes.
How much fuel does your car use per each 100 kilometers you drive? (I mean - the WHOLE world except for US and UK uses litres/100 kilometers. And even UK and US use different definitions of "a gallon", silly them ;-) )
Originally Posted by dzp111 View Post
I also appreciate miles per gallon rather than kilometers per liters.
It was a valid indicator of fuel economy when the price per gallon was constant. This way you could observe the progress in carmaking by seeing that you could travel further with the same amount of fuel.
In Europe, though, (and for some time now - in most other parts of the World as well), the fuel is relatively more expensive, so the "litres per 100 kilometers" was much easier to comprehend. It answered the question "how much am I going to pay for a trip", and not "how far can I go for a certain amount of money". The [i[litres per 100 kilometers[/i] "unit" is about saving, the mpg is about traveling.
As more and more Americans need to face with the first question, thinking "gallons per 100 miles" or even "litres per 100 kilometers" may have a small breakthrough... Unless you can count really, really fast and do the "mpg vs distance covered" math, in this case "l/100km" would never get adopted in the US.
( Last edited by hwojtek; Apr 13, 2009 at 07:43 AM. )
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Apr 13, 2009, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
it has no bearing on one's ability to tolerate the weather or not. I maintain a general range of 0-100 is more useful.
It still sounds like your scale is based on personal preference and your tolerance of hot and cold. For example, people who live in warm climates have complained about it being too cold when the weather gets near 50 F whereas as people who are used to snowy conditions don't even think that's cold at all. On your scale 50 would be in the middle but to people used to warm weather it would be lower on the scale for them. That's the problem with a scale based on human tolerance because everyone has a different preference.

My argument is that using the freezing point is a factual reference point that doesn't change to make a basis about temperature rather than someone's personal opinion about what's too hot or too cold. This way it's always the same scale no matter where you go which I believe is the whole point of this thread.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 13, 2009, 02:14 PM
 
I think every village, town, and district in the world should have their own temperature scale based on average maximum and minimum temperatures.

When extreme weather exceeds the scale of 0-100, everyone there should be given the choice: move to Metric ****in' Fairyland or be shot on the spot.
     
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Apr 13, 2009, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
...any system whose smallest unit of measurement is the inch is, frankly, laughable.
Here here! Let us all embrace the pica and point.
     
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Apr 13, 2009, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
In the age of nanotechnology, any system whose smallest unit of measurement is the inch is, frankly, laughable.
We managed to get to the Moon with an alcohol-fueled rocket using fractions of an inch...there's no reason to believe that the units of measure used have anything to do with what we might achieve technologically.

The inch is not necessarily the best unit of measure for any given application, but it works fairly well and has a longer history than the millimeter.

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Apr 13, 2009, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
We managed to get to the Moon with an alcohol-fueled rocket
The Saturn V was RP-1 (a kerosene deriverate) and liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen-propelled.

Alcohol as a rocket propellant was mostly abandoned in the late 50s.
     
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Apr 13, 2009, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
We managed to get to the Moon with an alcohol-fueled rocket using fractions of an inch...there's no reason to believe that the units of measure used have anything to do with what we might achieve technologically.
This is true.

The inch is not necessarily the best unit of measure for any given application,
I would say that the times that the inch is better are extremely rare.

but it works fairly well
Nearly ANY system can work "fairly well" as long as it is simple enough for people to somewhat understand and master. This doesn't make it a "good" system.

and has a longer history than the millimeter.
Totally irrelevant.
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CharlesS
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Apr 13, 2009, 03:58 PM
 
Someone should figure out what measurement system the ancient Sumerians used so we can switch to that - it would have the longest history of all!

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Apr 13, 2009, 04:13 PM
 
Are we REALLY having ANY disagreement about this?

In terms of origin, the imperial system makes little to no sense.

In terms of it's structure, it does make SOME, but not much sense.

The ONLY real reason to stay the same is so we don't have to make the effort to change. That's it. Everything else is just justification masturbation.
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Apr 13, 2009, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
The inch is not necessarily the best unit of measure for any given application, but it works fairly well and has a longer history than the millimeter.
That's not relevant at all. For things like precision measurements and space exploration, we need good, consistent definitions of units. For the inch that's only the case, because it has been defined in terms of the meter.* Of course you could say `that's good enough,' but it's more confusing to have to use several systems of measurements concurrently to satisfy all needs. My English friends, by the way, like to give their weight in stone

* With the exception of the kilogram which is defined in terms of a prototype, all SI base units have been defined unambiguously in terms of natural `clocks.'

Edit: smackintush's post says it all
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Apr 13, 2009, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
F***ing useless tradition.

Same as why the Brits still use separate faucets for hot and cold water.

-t
I'll defend that one. My current house doesn't have the separate taps (faucets), and it's really quite annoying since you can't visually see what ratio of hot to cold is entering your bath.

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Apr 13, 2009, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post
I'll defend that one. My current house doesn't have the separate taps (faucets), and it's really quite annoying since you can't visually see what ratio of hot to cold is entering your bath.

Amorya
What, you can't push the lever to the desired red to blue ratio?

greg
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
What, you can't push the lever to the desired red to blue ratio?

greg
I think Amorya’s house might have that really annoying thing that’s really the worst of both worlds: double-handle, single-spout faucets. I truly hate those (used to have one, up until a year and a half ago when they renovated the building).

Now I have a regular mixer-tap, which is of course far better, since you actually have a red-blue lever to control (or in the case of the bath/shower, a temperature indicator), rather than two separate knobs to turn separately, hoping you’re turning them the right amount to fit in with each other.
     
shabbasuraj
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:10 PM
 
Obama will be moving the US to a metric system in 2011. This is a fact.
blabba5555555555555555555555555555555555555
     
turtle777
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post
I'll defend that one. My current house doesn't have the separate taps (faucets), and it's really quite annoying since you can't visually see what ratio of hot to cold is entering your bath.

Amorya
Pff. Washing your hands gives you the choice of steaming hot or ice cold. Absolutely retarded.

-t
     
ghporter
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Pff. Washing your hands gives you the choice of steaming hot or ice cold. Absolutely retarded.

-t
...or using a traditional handwashing method: fill the basin with water from both taps and then wash in it. Not as efficient or effective, but it was used for a very long time before some smart guy invented the "mixer tap" and later the single-handle tap.

Just because it's something you're not used to doesn't make it something that's wrong, backward, or "retarded." There was a huge uproar when Britain went metric and the old fogies couldn't get their pints. I even read a long diatribe about how a half-liter was just plain wrong, but a pint was a natural quantity for beer...

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turtle777
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
...or using a traditional handwashing method: fill the basin with water from both taps and then wash in it. Not as efficient or effective, but it was used for a very long time before some smart guy invented the "mixer tap" and later the single-handle tap.
It's also a huge waste of water.

I stand by my assessment. We are in the 21st century.

What made sense one or two hundred years ago might not make sense today.
Especially NOT in a (supposedly) developed country like the UK.

-t
     
turtle777
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Apr 13, 2009, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
There was a huge uproar when Britain went metric and the old fogies couldn't get their pints. I even read a long diatribe about how a half-liter was just plain wrong, but a pint was a natural quantity for beer...
I understand why. 1 Imperial pint = 0.57 l

What most likely happened is that the pub started pouring 0.5 l for the same price the pint was before.

Voila, instant (and hidden) 14% price increase.

-t
     
Rev-O
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Apr 13, 2009, 10:20 PM
 
Why doesn't the US convert to metric? Easy. It would cost to much to change road signage. Every mile of highway and interstate in the US has a mile marker. Every exit ramp off of a highway, numbered route, or interstate is numbered according to the closest marker. Every advance sign on every interstate and highway references these exit numbers which are based upon the mile markers. Oh, and other advance signs mention distances to towns and cities in miles as well.
Wiki puts the total miles of interstate highway in the US at almost 47000 miles. This number does not reflect the total number of numbered US highways and numbered US routes in the US, just the interstate highways.
Now toss in all the speed limit signs. Now toss in ever advisory speed limit sign on exit ramps and interchanges.
Signs are made of aluminum. They're a little bit spendy. Now pay labor costs to remove and install all the new signs. Sure, you can recycle the old aluminum signs, but remember to figure in the labor costs to collect and haul signs to the recycling place, and recycled aluminum isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the costs of new signs.
Yup. signs are a big factor in the US not switching to metric system. Remember attending a seminar on this topic at a state level many years ago. They said that it would never ever ever happen because they could never ever ever get funding for the signs.
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
     
turtle777
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Apr 13, 2009, 10:26 PM
 
Rev-O, wouldn't that be a perfect Stimulus ?

-t
     
 
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