[Railroader]

I am talking about Rob, not you.

I care about audiophile gear. I found your last post about mono and mics highly interesting.

In my humble opinion, audio gear is highly a "taste vs. cost issue". Some people simply don't care what their gear sounds like. (Which explains why Koss is still around.) And others like it to sound better than the mixing/recording room. Me, I'm cheap and have cheap Sony, Bose, and homemade speakers. Sometimes I think about going out and buying some nicer stuff, but then I drink a beer and my equipment sounds amazingly better. Plus I can buy better beer that way. But I'd like to have better equipment. I highly appreciate the effort people go through to make themselves happy.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Dude, I'm a car guy. I like neat things. I'd prefer a WRX wagon, but I can't afford a 15,000 car. The SVX is the best I could do, and I don't think it's a bad choice for under 5 grand. You know what it has under the skin.

[Railroader]

And these guys are Audio guys.

They probably think it's crazy what you spend, both money and time, on a car. You probably think what you are doing is right and they probably think what they are doing is right. I'm glad everyone doesn't think alike. The world would be a God-aweful boring place. (and I'm certainly glad they all don't think like you).

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Railroader

And these guys are Audio guys.

They probably think it's crazy what you spend, both money and time, on a car. You probably think what you are doing is right and they probably think what they are doing is right. I'm glad everyone doesn't think alike. The world would be a God-aweful boring place. (and I'm certainly glad they all don't think like you).

I don't spend much time on my car at all. Just oil changes. Money is only for gas. I haven't done anything to it since last june.

[Railroader]

You didn't just replace an axle? Suspension? Brakes? Clutch? Exhaust? Didn't Kristine just hit some ice?

[Y3a]

I am sorry Railroader. No offense. When i was into the audiophile scene, I was also a repair technician/audio engineer, so I knew what fell apart and what never broke. I was lucky in my purchases, many at cost, or used, and the stuff holds together even after 20+ years. I still ship the equipment back to folks for tweaking every few years as needed. My aiwa M700 cassette deck has a LOT of hours, but last year got a new set of head, new belts, new bulbs, and a full calibration to some different tapes. My FONS turntable got a new belt and motor in 1980, and when it goes, its off to get a Linn.

I'm a hobby geek and have done RC airplanes, cars, and racing sailboats, and I've tried my hand at REAL acrobatic flight le$$ons. I am a master model railroader, and used to give classes at the local community college extended learning. I'm also doing SPFX using video effects in place of the old high speed film stuff I learned in the early 80's when I wanted to be a Second Unit Cinematographer. Currently my hobby has been the new house. fix, fix, fix, mow, trim, dig, paint, replace, add, fix, mow, etc, etc, etc. my last big hobby project was a 2 foot diameter model of the Jupiter 2 from Lost in Space. it does everything the original SPFX model did. before that it was putting DCC into a fleet(14) of Norfolk&Western USRA 2-8-8-2's. My other hobby is the Fiance'. She's absolutly WONDERFUL!!

[suvsr4terrorists]

I did all the suspension and brake work before last june. Exhaust was I guess right before Kristin. I had to have a small hole patched in the exhaust because Kristin hit some ice....but ... I didn't fix it. I can't weld.

>shrug<

Man, you know me better than I do.

[Railroader]

A car guy who doesn't work on cars... you sure are an auto aficionado then.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Y3a

I am sorry Railroader. No offense. When i was into the audiophile scene, I was also a repair technician/audio engineer, so I knew what fell apart and what never broke. I was lucky in my purchases, many at cost, or used, and the stuff holds together even after 20+ years. I still ship the equipment back to folks for tweaking every few years as needed. My aiwa M700 cassette deck has a LOT of hours, but last year got a new set of head, new belts, new bulbs, and a full calibration to some different tapes. My FONS turntable got a new belt and motor in 1980, and when it goes, its off to get a Linn.

I'm a hobby geek and have done RC airplanes, cars, and racing sailboats, and I've tried my hand at REAL acrobatic flight le$$ons. I am a master model railroader, and used to give classes at the local community college extended learning. I'm also doing SPFX using video effects in place of the old high speed film stuff I learned in the early 80's when I wanted to be a Second Unit Cinematographer. Currently my hobby has been the new house. fix, fix, fix, mow, trim, dig, paint, replace, add, fix, mow, etc, etc, etc. my last big hobby project was a 2 foot diameter model of the Jupiter 2 from Lost in Space. it does everything the original SPFX model did. before that it was putting DCC into a fleet(14) of Norfolk&Western USRA 2-8-8-2's. My other hobby is the Fiance'. She's absolutly WONDERFUL!!

I was coming to your defense against Rob. If you don't see that oh well.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Y3a

While mono recordings could be good recordings, the fact IS that the Microphones were crap back then. they were peaky in response, had NO bass, and clipped easily into the mic input of the microphone preamps of the day. Early "Stereo" was 2 channels of lousy sound. Early multitrack also stunk, as did early digital.

Actually, I was talking about the late 50s. I do believe Neumann was making some pretty decent mics back then.

And the late 50s also saw the "Living Stereo" series on RCA, which are still some of the best stereo recording ever made.

I won't get into this any further, though.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

Do you realize that you're in the same realm as a trekkie?

Do you realize that you have no idea what he's talking about?

[Y3a]

<< I was coming to your defense against Rob. If you don't see that oh well. >>

I did, and thanks.

[Railroader]

No problemo.

[wooddragon]

hifi- arcam cd92, pmc gb1, unison research unico p, analysis plus cables.

for powermac- gallo micros and passive sub, diy supertweeter and yamaha pianocraft amp, qed cables.

all reasonable mid priced stuff. sound great.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Railroader

A car guy who doesn't work on cars... you sure are an auto aficionado then.

No, it just hasn't needed much the past 12 months. It's reliable. I could see how that'd be a foreign idea to you, being a GM fan and all.

[budster101]

Take it outside.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Nah, let's take it to the track. Any 188,000 mile cavalier with stock engine/trans vs my SVX.

[budster101]

I have a set of Atlantic Technology Pattern Speakers. It's a cube system with a sub, and they are amazing. They don't make them anymore. I got them for $350.00 and the sound is quite amazing.

Anyone ever tested these out? I can't even find a picture of them. They look like the Bose Cube Setup but they were a fraction of the cost. Maybe this was an experiment by AT to test the market. They build some nice looking THX stuff. Any oppinions?

---

At my age, it's not how fast you get there, but just that you get there in one piece.
Our Cav has 50k on it, and I can't complain as it's pretty fast. I can keep up with most suprisingly. It's a sleeper.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

Nah, let's take it to the track. Any 188,000 mile cavalier with stock engine/trans vs my SVX.

Let me know when that SVX get 34 mpg. Plus I can buy two Cavaliers for the cost of one SVX.

Plus I can roll the windows down all the way.

I don't race. I drive my car. It gets me from point a to point b.

I'm glad you brought the Cavalier into this. Jesus would own a Cavalier over a SVX any day.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

No, it just hasn't needed much the past 12 months. It's reliable. I could see how that'd be a foreign idea to you, being a GM fan and all.

Didn't you just replace the axles? Why are you avoiding this question?

I bet you have more into that car in the last 3 years than my car cost new!

I am not a GM fan. I am a GM worker.

I haven't had to work on a GM car since 1995. Simply haven't had to. And it's the only thing I've owned since then.

[Railroader]

Dang it... sorry for the derail. Rob's troll bait is tempting isn't it? It won't happen again.

BOT: What do you Audio guys think of Adcom's stuff?

I'm thinking of adcom components (except DVD) and Paradigm speakers for a Home Theater setup.

[Cubeoid]

This thread is giving me an iRection.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Railroader

BOT: What do you Audio guys think of Adcom's stuff?

Never heard of them before but since design is almost more important for me than quality (that's why I buy Apple but I still wouldn't buy Bang&Olufsen) it looks like I could really like Adcom (pictures are quite small though)!

And NO, I didn't say that Apple offers bad quality!

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Let me know when that SVX get 34 mpg. Plus I can buy two Cavaliers for the cost of one SVX.

I got 29mpg once on a roadtrip. And my car cost me $3600.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Didn't you just replace the axles? Why are you avoiding this question?

I replaced the front axles in 2003, right before my honeymoon. They were over 90k old. And they didnt' fail, the rubber CV boot just got ripped somehow.

I bet you have more into that car in the last 3 years than my car cost new!

I am not a GM fan.

Doubt it.

And you lie.

[budster101]

fark

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Dang it... sorry for the derail. Rob's troll bait is tempting isn't it? It won't happen again.

BOT: What do you Audio guys think of Adcom's stuff?

I'm thinking of adcom components (except DVD) and Paradigm speakers for a Home Theater setup.

Adcom is fine. They started out as an independent value-for-money amplifier and phono cartridge company about 25 years ago (I had a couple of their first models) and are now a mainstream upscale electronics company, which is fine - IMO, there's no meaningful difference between the different makes, solid-state components all sound essentially the same, so get the one with the features and looks you like (there will be those who disagree about the sound, but I would challenge them to a blind test, and they would fail it, they always do). I guarantee that you would be just as happy with the performance of a Sony or Samsung as an Adcom, it's just a matter of looks and features.

You can't go wrong with Paradigms. They're one of a number of Canadian companies that have benefitted from collaborative speaker research over the past 10-15 years. You really can't go wrong with any of the leading names. My advice is to get the ones you like, don't obsess over it, have fun.

[Cubeoid]

Run it's germans!

Bang!

[Y3a]

Adcom is fine equipment.
I disagree that you can't tell the difference between amps of the same power though.
In your search for good quality equipment, look for used Crown, McIntosh, Marantz, JBL, and the like.


".. (there will be those who disagree about the sound, but I would challenge them to a blind test, and they would fail it, they always do) "

ALWAYS???? I know thats not true!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Adcom is fine equipment.
I disagree that you can't tell the difference between amps of the same power though.
In your search for good quality equipment, look for used Crown, McIntosh, Marantz, JBL, and the like.


".. (there will be those who disagree about the sound, but I would challenge them to a blind test, and they would fail it, they always do) "

ALWAYS???? I know thats not true!

See that's where they're wrong. I can generally tell the difference between amps, preamps, etc.. I've been tested (blind) where the same speakers are used, but the gear is switched from high qualty seperates to a low/mid quality receiver. On material I'm familiar with, every single time I could point out which was which. There is a difference, some DACs sound different than others, some amps are more capable in the lower registers (takes a lot to drive my Wilsons at 20Hz), there are more variables than many people realize.

HOWEVER. There is a point of diminishing return, and it happens pretty early on. But, I don't care about that, this is a hobby/love of mine. I've steadily and persistantly been upgrading my system(s) for over 10 years now... always trading up, buying used or demos, never paying retail. I have a list and I stick with it and look for killer bargains. It's not that bad, just takes time and patience, and I think it's rather rewarding. Sure, if I went out and bought my gear outright, paid retail, I'd have as much in it as many people pay for a house. The reality is, I have just a fraction of that cost in my gear.

[Railroader]

Thanks for the Adcom advice.

Now, what about Yamaha receivers? I have a Yamaha subwoofer that I love. Very easy to use and the sound it added to my meager system was well worth it.

[Y3a]

Yamaha Recievers are excellent. I have a tuner I've been using since 1978. Still beats spec's! it's quiet and listenable, without the usual FM harshness that comes from cheaper models. Carver also has excellent tuners. Same for McIntosh, and Marantz. Anything with "wood" in the name usually sucks. (kenwood, Sherwood). Same for pioneer, and most lower end Onkyo's. A Dynaco can be tweeked to be OK but most out of the box ones don't.

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Adcom is fine equipment.
I disagree that you can't tell the difference between amps of the same power though.
In your search for good quality equipment, look for used Crown, McIntosh, Marantz, JBL, and the like.


".. (there will be those who disagree about the sound, but I would challenge them to a blind test, and they would fail it, they always do) "

ALWAYS???? I know thats not true!

Every properly conducted blind test I've seen or participated in, where the gain levels are matched. I didn't believe it either until I saw it. It's important that the gain levels are matched - the slightest variation will usually cause people to favor the slightly louder component. It's a tried and true trick of audio salespeople.

What's remarkable is that if even a fraction of the differences that audiophiles - especially reviewers - claim to be able to hear (depth, transparency, warmth, whatever) were actually audible, they would not only be able to hear the difference at a statistically meaningful rate - they would be able to hear the difference easily - you wouldn't even need to worry about matching the gain levels, it would be so obvious. Yet they can't - even with the gain levels matched, they have to strain and struggle to hear a difference, and usually can't. It's the same thing with compression - under controlled conditions, through state-of-the-art equipment, the best ears in the world can't distinguish between a source CD and 256 MP3.

I recognize that two amps of a completely different type might sound different, but that's for geeks - the average person or even hobbyist buying a receiver has no reason to prefer an Adcom over a Sony. I would extend that to the more expensive stuff as well, but I don't expect to convince anybody. If someone says a $5,000 solid-state amp sounds better than a $200 solid-state amp, people are inclined to believe it.

Of course, this doesn't apply to electro-mechanical devices like speakers, which is why I tell people to put their money in speakers.

I know MacNStein differs, and that he's an avid hobbyist, which is great. I would still maintain that for 99.9999% of the population, it doesn't matter which receiver or amp or CD player they buy - for all practical purposes they sound the same.

[Y3a]

Best classic middle range system:

Crown IC150a preamp
Crown D150 power amp
Carver Tuner (model 10 I think)
Linn Sondek turntable, SME tonearm, Stanton 881s or newest equivilent
JBL 4311's or Advent Walnut, or similar sized studio/control room monitors
Sony or Denon CD player
quality cables and big-ass speaker cables.
TCP/IP "Radio" to listen to iTunes radio staions like SOMA-FM's "Secret Agent"

[Sherwin]

Originally Posted by zigzag

It's the same thing with compression - under controlled conditions, through state-of-the-art equipment, the best ears in the world can't distinguish between a source CD and 256 MP3.

Completely and utterly wrong, sorry.

[Railroader]

I'm looking to spend $600 on a home theater receiver.

Please give me some recommendations.

[budster101]

The best equipment is within your budget and one that you can enjoy for many many years without problems.

Take my Atlantic Technology Surround Sound setup. almost 20 years and great sound.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Thanks for the Adcom advice.

Now, what about Yamaha receivers? I have a Yamaha subwoofer that I love. Very easy to use and the sound it added to my meager system was well worth it.

I agree, Yamaha receivers are a great value for the $. They're good, solid equipment. Same thing goes for HK, Denon, and Onkyo.

[Shaddim]

So, Zigzag, you're saying that a Sony DE receiver will drive my Wilson MAXX the same as my Krell? Down to 20Hz? At sustained theater levels? Even my old Sunfire 400W amp couldn't do that, and it wasn't junk.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I'm looking to spend $600 on a home theater receiver.

Please give me some recommendations.

Build your own speakers. Also, build a sub with a passive radiator also. Make the box as thick as you can. My buddy built a home theater sub that's just sick. It cost about $450 total, and it's insane.

Edit: This is my same friend who built a pair of HUGE tower speakers that sound amazing, and they're driven by a fairly cheap low budget aiwa reciever. They still sound amazing.

[Y3a]

WHO ARE "the best ear's in the world" ????

Sounds like Audio BS to me.

The distortion test of 25 years ago in Audio Magazine showed that they could hear very tiny differences in distortion, phase and even damping factor, so the claim that an MP3 compared to source is indistingushable is a test where the loudspeakers must be cardboard boxes and the speakers must be from old transister radios.

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by Sherwin

Completely and utterly wrong, sorry.

http://www.geocities.com/altbinaries...l/mp3test.html

Perhaps you'd like to read this and then get back to us as to what makes it "completely and utterly wrong, sorry." Some of the best ears in the world, using state-of-the-art equipment, couldn't consistently distinguish between CD sources and 256 kbps MP3s.

I bet you were going to say that you could not only tell the difference, but could tell the difference easily.

Everybody thinks they've got golden ears until they're put to the test.

[Sherwin]

Originally Posted by zigzag

http://www.geocities.com/altbinaries...l/mp3test.html

Perhaps you'd like to read this and then get back to us as to what makes it "completely and utterly wrong, sorry." Some of the best ears in the world, using state-of-the-art equipment, couldn't consistently distinguish between CD sources and 256 kbps MP3s.

I bet you were going to say that you could not only tell the difference, but could tell the difference easily.

Everybody thinks they've got golden ears until they're put to the test.

Whatever. You (and the article) are wrong.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

Build your own speakers. Also, build a sub with a passive radiator also. Make the box as thick as you can. My buddy built a home theater sub that's just sick. It cost about $450 total, and it's insane.

Edit: This is my same friend who built a pair of HUGE tower speakers that sound amazing, and they're driven by a fairly cheap low budget aiwa reciever. They still sound amazing.

I've made plenty of speakers before. My current surrounds are homemade. Homemade is great for Stereo, but horrible for home theater.

The problem with homemade speakers for home theater is that they aren't timber matched. I don't have the facilities to do this and I certainly don't have the time.

Lastly, I like to reserve my woodworking skills for "heirloom" quality furniture. I want my pieces to be used for generations. For example, TV cabinet won't be used for generations, nor will a computer desk. Speakers certainly wouldn't either.

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

So, Zigzag, you're saying that a Sony DE receiver will drive my Wilson MAXX the same as my Krell? Down to 20Hz? At sustained theater levels? Even my old Sunfire 400W amp couldn't do that, and it wasn't junk.

Well, what do you mean by "drive"? Do you mean provide adequate power, or do you mean "sounds better to you"? The former is certainly a variable - I didn't mean to suggest that all amps can drive the same loads. I'm assuming that in a blind test, the amps aren't being asked to drive unreasonable loads. I'm also assuming that the average consumer, like Railroader, isn't planning on driving Wilsons down to 20Hz. Even if we disagree about the more exotic stuff, I suspect you would agree that for his purposes, it makes no difference whether he buys an Adcom or a Sony or a Yamaha or a Kenwood or whatever - the components are probably all supplied by the same plants in Taiwan.

Make no mistake: I'm not saying that your system doesn't sound better than my system, much less the average consumer system, or that you're wasting your money - you should spend your money on whatever suits you, you don't have to defend that to me. I am saying that for most purposes, electronic components are now generally of such uniform quality that it makes little or no difference. Railroader does not need a Krell and I seriously doubt that it would make any difference whether he bought an Adcom receiver or any other name brand.

I remember when Bob Carver was considered a heathen among audiophiles. How things change.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by zigzag

http://www.geocities.com/altbinaries...l/mp3test.html

Perhaps you'd like to read this and then get back to us as to what makes it "completely and utterly wrong, sorry." Some of the best ears in the world, using state-of-the-art equipment, couldn't consistently distinguish between CD sources and 256 kbps MP3s.

I bet you were going to say that you could not only tell the difference, but could tell the difference easily.

Everybody thinks they've got golden ears until they're put to the test.

I've been put to the test and I got 9 out of 10 right. You bump up to 320 kbps and it gets harder. But then you really aren't saving too much so you should just go .aiff if you're going to go 320 kbps

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I've been put to the test and I got 9 out of 10 right. You bump up to 320 kbps and it gets harder. But then you really aren't saving too much so you should just go .aiff if you're going to go 320 kbps

Yeah, right, you and Sherwin both have better ears than Deutsche Grammaphone's mastering engineer, listening through B&W 803s. I'm impressed!

[Railroader]

I guess I do.

Actually, I have to have my hearing checking annually in my job. The nurse is usually impressed with my hearing ability and usually comments about it.

I was listening through some very expensive Klipsch speakers when I did the test. The source was played with a powerbook. It was a quick and dirty setup I'll admit, but I could hear definite flaws and a marked sound quality difference.

[Sherwin]

Originally Posted by zigzag

Yeah, right, you and Sherwin both have better ears than Deutsche Grammaphone's mastering engineer, listening through B&W 803s. I'm impressed!

BTW, you know that most of those CD mastering engineers - especially classical-based mastering engineers - are cloth-eared idiots, right?

[Y3a]

SO WHO ARE THOSE BEST EARS ATTACHED TO???

NAMES!

Studio loudspeakers and environments are quite different than the top end audiophiles environment and equipment.

I've listened to both and set up both kinds of environments. The rich guys who buys $50K of equipment usually has about 600 square feet in a dedicated room with 10 foot high or more ceilings. the recording engineer usually has less than 100 square feet and 8 foot ceilings.