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icruise · Aug 1, 2007, 06:19 PM

aristotle, if you seriously have goMac and Eug on your ignore list, then I think trying to participate in this discussion is going to be pointless for you.

exca1ibur · Aug 1, 2007, 06:26 PM

Well, some people take things personal, when it comes to their opinions. No need to trip out because someone doesn't share your opinion. Most people in life aren't going to share your opinions so you just have to respect that. That's just the way it is.

Dakarʒ · Aug 1, 2007, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

As cool as it is your siggy is breaking the rules.

In case you missed it.

Didn't miss it, or the echo here, either. When I get around to fixing it (When I get home), I'll deal with it. Next topic please...

Dakarʒ · Aug 1, 2007, 06:45 PM

You didn't say anything, so I couldn't be sure. No need to be grumpy.

Kenneth · Aug 1, 2007, 07:48 PM

In the local BestBuy, the HD DVD version of 300 seem to be sold out. However, the Blu-ray version was still available.

starman · Aug 1, 2007, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kenneth

In the local BestBuy, the HD DVD version of 300 seem to be sold out. However, the Blu-ray version was still available.

Which means what? At my local BB the Blu-Ray version "seemed to be" sold out, but they had them in an endcap.

jokell82 · Aug 1, 2007, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Which means what? At my local BB the Blu-Ray version "seemed to be" sold out, but they had them in an endcap.

It means diddly squat.

Eug · Aug 1, 2007, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Everyone is aware of of HD DVD structures on DVD-+R/RW and that it is part of the spec but it is still not a true HD DVD burn

Of course it is. The DVD Forum says it is, so it is.

VideoTS on a CD-R is a DVD.

This is called mini-DVD or cDVD. It does not exist in the DVD spec. These discs will not work in most standalone DVD players.

It is a quick hack, nothing more.

No, HD DVD on DVD media is part of the official HD DVD spec. These discs will work in all HD DVD players.

Eug, I'm putting you on my ignore list. You are doing exactly what you falsely accuse me of doing. I'm done responding to you for now.

That's good news. I finally get the last word.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kenneth

In the local BestBuy, the HD DVD version of 300 seem to be sold out. However, the Blu-ray version was still available.

Really? **** I ****ed up getting the PS3 then didn't I.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

3) No Region Codes
4) Less DRM
5) Completed spec (my d2 will *ALWAYS* play HD-DVD movies, current-gen and last-gen BD players may not play future BD movies)
6) Full featured hardware

But yeah, those 2 you mentioned are the only ones.

And you seriously think the average consumer will give a rats ass about those?
I don't remember people not wanting DVD's because of DRM and region codes. Are you also going to tell me people like red boxes more than blue? Even with the points you mention you really think HD will win over BR because of "less DMR and region codes". Are you talking about HD surviving in its current 8 month losing streak or those "features" will actually help them WIN 100% of the market?

All BR players will play all BR movies. Picture in picture might be another story but there have been plenty of HD movies that don't play on certain hardware especially the 360 add on.

Also I remember watching PiP movies on my PS3 and BR movies months ago. IT wasn't done with Java but it looked and acted the same so I could care less.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 12:21 PM

BR camcorders. Pretty damn cheap also:

Electronista | Hitachi unveils first Blu-Ray camcorders [U]

Cadaver · Aug 2, 2007, 12:31 PM

I have both a Blue-Ray and an HD-DVD player.

The thing that irritates me, and jokell82 mentioned it above, is that its very possible that my $650 Blu-Ray player may not work correctly with future BD movies. With the new BD-Java and additional layer of encryption that new BD movies will use, its very possible that even a firmware update won't be enough.

Plus, my HD-DVD player is way more responsive than my Blu-Ray player.

But insofar as picture quality, I have no preference.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Plus, my HD-DVD player is way more responsive than my Blu-Ray player.

Damn you should have got a PS3. It knocks the socks off any BR or HD player. Fast as hell.

Cadaver · Aug 2, 2007, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Damn you should have got a PS3. It knocks the socks off any BR or HD player. Fast as hell.

Bought mine before PS3s were available in volume. They were sold out everywhere at the time, and I wasn't motivated to wait since I wasn't (aren't) planning on gaming on it.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

And you seriously think the average consumer will give a rats ass about those?
I don't remember people not wanting DVD's because of DRM and region codes. Are you also going to tell me people like red boxes more than blue? Even with the points you mention you really think HD will win over BR because of "less DMR and region codes". Are you talking about HD surviving in its current 8 month losing streak or those "features" will actually help them WIN 100% of the market?

All BR players will play all BR movies. Picture in picture might be another story but there have been plenty of HD movies that don't play on certain hardware especially the 360 add on.

Also I remember watching PiP movies on my PS3 and BR movies months ago. IT wasn't done with Java but it looked and acted the same so I could care less.

Will all consumers? No. But I care. And others care. As for the color scheme, give me a freaking break. The color scheme is not going to make or break either format. But since you mention it, the red looks a lot better against my wooden media shelf than blue does.

As for HD's losing streak, I present the following:

Do I think HD-DVD will beat BD down and become the 100% standard? No, not really. I expect both formats to stick around, with Universal staying HD only, Sony staying BD only, and every other studio going neutral. Just what I think is going to happen, though.

As for your "All BR players will play all BR movies" - that may not be true. We wont know until BD+ is implemented into hardware and people try to play new movies on their current gen machines. A strong possibility exists that they simply wont work.

Besides, the "ray" part of Blu-Ray isn't even blue - it's violet. If they're lying about the name what else is Sony lying about?

starman · Aug 2, 2007, 01:10 PM

Fox won't go neutral so long as it needs the second layer of content protection which HD-DVD doesn't have.

Eug · 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

And you seriously think the average consumer will give a rats ass about those?
I don't remember people not wanting DVD's because of DRM and region codes.

Actually, DVD region codes are a major problem for my mom. Or at least they were. She has a region free DVD player now.

Originally Posted by jokell82

As for HD's losing streak, I present the following:

Was there a mass buy day by HD DVD geeks today or something? Or was everyone just buying Hot Fuzz and Shaun of the Dead (like me)?

As for your "All BR players will play all BR movies" - that may not be true. We wont know until BD+ is implemented into hardware and people try to play new movies on their current gen machines. A strong possibility exists that they simply wont work.

It's pretty much safe to say that all Blu-ray players will play all BR movies (with rare exceptions). However, it's still lame that Blu-ray had had a half-assed spec for the 1st generation players. It's even more lame that the high-priced gen 1 players cannot be updated to the new spec.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Fox won't go neutral so long as it needs the second layer of content protection which HD-DVD doesn't have.

They will if the sales are there. And if HD can seriously get a $149 or $99 player this holiday season, sales will be there.

Originally Posted by Eug

Was there a mass buy day by HD DVD geeks today or something? Or was everyone just buying Hot Fuzz and Shaun of the Dead (like me)?

There was no mass buy day that I am aware of. HD has been on a pretty steady increase lately.

Not that the Amazon sales rank numbers are the end all be all of the format wars, but they probably do give a good overview of the situation.

starman · Aug 2, 2007, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Not that the Amazon sales rank numbers are the end all be all of the format wars

You got that right.

Nielsen numbers (Blue-Ray/HD-DVD)

05/06 60/40
05/13 62/38
05/20 58/42
05/27 69/31
06/03 61/39
06/10 66/34
06/17 64/36
06/24 70/30
07/01 65/35
07/08 66/34
07/15 61/39
07/22 74/26

Yes, you're reading it right. 74/26 for BR/HD.

icruise · Aug 2, 2007, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

HD has been on a pretty steady increase lately.

I ask again. How do you know this?

Originally Posted by jokell82

Not that the Amazon sales rank numbers are the end all be all of the format wars, but they probably do give a good overview of the situation.

Especially if they make HD-DVD look halfway decent, unlike last week's embarrassing Nielsen numbers.

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Y
07/22 74/26

Yes, you're reading it right. 74/26 for BR/HD.

I thought we just finished the conversation on this.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 02:49 PM

I thought we already discussed how Nielsen doesn't include many big retailers (I recently learned Circuit City isn't included either), so using them as the only source of data is a flawed way to look at things? Am I mistaken?

I'm not presenting the Amazon numbers as gospel, like I said above, but they do provide a perspective that Nielson does not show (or even track in the first place).

Originally Posted by icruise

I ask again. How do you know this?

That press release (linked a few pages back, dig it up if you want) that showed HD sales were up and BD sales were down. No one seemed to argue with the numbers, just something about it was "easy to increase sales when your sales are zero anyway."

icruise · Aug 2, 2007, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

I thought we already discussed how Nielsen doesn't include many big retailers (I recently learned Circuit City isn't included either), so using them as the only source of data is a flawed way to look at things? Am I mistaken?

Which is more accurate, one store's numbers (Amazon) or many stores' numbers? You did say that the Amazon numbers "give a good overview of the situation." Why are they more accurate than something that shows a large portion of retail sales?

Eug · Aug 2, 2007, 02:58 PM

It would be interesting to get Wal-Mart's numbers. They aren't included either, and Wal-Mart alone represents 40% of all DVD sales in the US.

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Which is more accurate, one store's numbers (Amazon) or many stores' numbers? You did say that the Amazon numbers "give a good overview of the situation." Why are they more accurate than something that shows a large portion of retail sales?

Well, which stores does Neilsen include? Are they including the bundled PS3 games?

The one nice thing about the Amazon numbers is they are pure sales numbers. There is no bundled unit numbers in the Amazon sales numbers.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 03:02 PM

PS3 sales are up over 180% across the board since the $100 price drop.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Actually, DVD region codes are a major problem for my mom. Or at least they were. She has a region free DVD player now.

I believe you. The important thing in that case is your mom will not be buying either HD format cuz she doesn't care.

I'm also willing to bet she didn't get an DVD player until recently and it was probibly a hacked $50 one right?

If that's true it makes no difference in the HD war as she is not a potential customer.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Which is more accurate, one store's numbers (Amazon) or many stores' numbers? You did say that the Amazon numbers "give a good overview of the situation." Why are they more accurate than something that shows a large portion of retail sales?

Since we know *where* the data comes from, I say Amazon. We have no real idea how Nielsen works or where its numbers come from.

I don't think the Nielsen numbers are BS, but I don't think they're the holy grail of reporting the BD fanboys would have you believe.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I believe you. The important thing in that case is your mom will not be buying either HD format cuz she doesn't care.

I'm also willing to bet she didn't get an DVD player until recently and it was probibly a hacked $50 one right?

If that's true it makes no difference in the HD war as she is not a potential customer.

Why do you assume his mom doesn't care about HD???

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Why do you assume his mom doesn't care about HD???

I think it's more that the Bluray crowd does not care about the average consumer. Their loss.

Eug · Aug 2, 2007, 03:18 PM

The Nielson numbers definitely aren't perfect, but they are the best we have.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I believe you. The important thing in that case is your mom will not be buying either HD format cuz she doesn't care.

I'm also willing to bet she didn't get an DVD player until recently and it was probibly a hacked $50 one right?

If that's true it makes no difference in the HD war as she is not a potential customer.

She got a DVD player back in 2002 or something like that. About a year later she got a region free one, but it was something like $300.

I don't think she'll get either HD format either, but she is interested in HD to a certain extent. She just moved into a new house and requested I get her a flat panel TV. So I got her a 37" LCD. I plugged in a standard def cable box and her only comment was "It's not very clear." So she asked me for something better quality. So I went out and exchanged the box for an HD one. Her comment after that. "That's good. Beautiful."

So yes, even elderly people with no understanding at all about HD can appreciate HD on a large TV.

icruise · Aug 2, 2007, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Well, which stores does Neilsen include? Are they including the bundled PS3 games?

The one nice thing about the Amazon numbers is they are pure sales numbers. There is no bundled unit numbers in the Amazon sales numbers.

What the heck are you talking about? What do games have to do with anything? And what "bundled PS3 games" are you referring to in any case? There are no games bundled with the PS3 at the moment (although the Motorstorm bundle has been announced). If you meant "movies" instead of games, those aren't bundled either, but are generally send-away offers, so they can't be included in sales numbers. But anyway, I'm pretty sure that Nielsen only includes sales that are actually, you know, sales -- things that are bought individually -- so even the Talledega Nights movie that came with the first shipment of PS3s shouldn't have been included.

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

What the heck are you talking about? What do games have to do with anything? And what "bundled PS3 games" are you referring to in any case? There are no games bundled with the PS3 at the moment (although the Motorstorm bundle has been announced). If you meant "movies" instead of games, those aren't bundled either, but are send-away offers, so they can't be included in sales numbers. In short, I have no idea what you mean.

Sorry, I meant bundled PS3 movies.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

What the heck are you talking about? What do games have to do with anything? And what "bundled PS3 games" are you referring to in any case? There are no games bundled with the PS3 at the moment (although the Motorstorm bundle has been announced). If you meant "movies" instead of games, those aren't bundled either, but are send-away offers, so they can't be included in sales numbers. But anyway, I'm pretty sure that Nielsen only includes sales that are actually, you know, sales -- things that are bought individually, so even the Talledega Nights movie that came with the first shipment of PS3s shouldn't have been included. In short, I have no idea what you mean.

Actually most people I've seen think the rebate movies *ARE* included in Nielsen, both HD and BD.

But we don't really know now, do we?

icruise · Aug 2, 2007, 03:32 PM

In any case, both sides have been giving away a lot of freebies, so I would think it would more or less even out.

starman · Aug 2, 2007, 03:36 PM

jokell, you're too funny. You'll do anything to make HD-DVD look good, including using numbers you admit could not show the state of the entire war. Good job.

You obviously don't know much about the Nielsen numbers. They're printed smack-dab on the front of the biggest video trade mag. Oh, but they make HD-DVD looks like crap so there MUST be something wrong with them

I'm just saying that if you're going to spew one set of numbers for YOUR camp, you have to look OBJECTIVELY at someone else's numbers. So Amazon says HD-DVD is better. Whoopdiefrickindoo. DVDEmpire.com shows THEIR sales are higher on the BR side.

Seriously, stop it.

Eug · Aug 2, 2007, 04:01 PM

AFAIK, bundled movies (free in box, or mail-in deals) are NOT included in the Nielson numbers.

However, some store bundles (where they maintain a separate SKU) could be included.

jokell82 · 04:50 PM

Nielsen *ADMITS* there is something wrong with them - they don't include the single largest DVD distributor in the world. Are you now doubting that?

I am looking objectively at Nielsen's numbers - they heavily favor Blu-Ray and I don't doubt that the numbers are real. However they are obviously less than half of the *actual* sales numbers, as they don't include online retailers, Walmart, and many others including Circuit City (EDIT - can't prove that Circuit City bit after doing some more checking, it may or may not be true).

Amazon's numbers do NOT show the entire picture, of course. I have said that NUMEROUS times. But they show a portion that Nielsen does not. And they've been used in the past by BOTH sides as indications on how formats are selling. Of course as soon as they show an upswing for HD-DVD, though, they're called out as bullshit by BD supporters. That's not hypocritical in the slightest.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 04:36 PM

Verbatim to launch Mini Blu-ray discs with Hitachi's camcorder - Engadget

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Why do you assume his mom doesn't care about HD???

Because I know him personally and I thought he remembered mentioning something about it before.

That aside I don't know ONE mom who would care about either and go out to buy it for their home theatre.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Because I know him personally and I thought he remembered mentioning something about it before.

That aside I don't know ONE mom who would care about either and go out to buy it for their home theatre.

Did not know that.

My mom loves the HD-DVDs I've bought for her. My dad owns a D2 and she loves Happy Gilmore in HD.

*TL · Aug 2, 2007, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Nielsen *ADMITS* there is something wrong with them - they don't include the single largest DVD distributor in the world. Are you now doubting that?

Nielsen is a survey based on a sample of retailers—just like any other survey or poll—that then extrapolates the data to draw conclusions about the whole market. That doesn't mean that their methods are 100%, but arguing that they don't include this or that retailer is irrelevant.

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Did not know that.

My mom loves the HD-DVDs I've bought for her. My dad owns a D2 and she loves Happy Gilmore in HD.

One of my friend's little brothers (who is 13) told me he was going to get a HD-DVD player. I talked him out of it because his TV is only 23", it would be a better idea to get an unconverting dvd player...

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by *TL

Nielsen is a survey based on a sample of retailers—just like any other survey or poll—that then extrapolates the data to draw conclusions about the whole market. That doesn't mean that their methods are 100%, but arguing that they don't include this or that retailer is irrelevant.

It is relevant because they don't evenly sample different kinds of retailers. It's akin to a survey that samples people's favorite candidates, but only in southern states.

jokell82 · Aug 2, 2007, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

It is relevant because they don't evenly sample different kinds of retailers. It's akin to a survey that samples people's favorite candidates, but only in southern states.

And if they exclude people who vote the most.

analogue SPRINKLES · Aug 2, 2007, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

One of my friend's little brothers (who is 13) told me he was going to get a HD-DVD player. I talked him out of it because his TV is only 23", it would be a better idea to get an unconverting dvd player...

Way to go! What if he wanted downloadable subtitles and "Less DMR"?

Geez.

icruise · Aug 2, 2007, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

It is relevant because they don't evenly sample different kinds of retailers.

But it's not a simple issue of "they only get numbers from retailers x, y, and z, so it's inaccurate." As I understand it, they use the data that they do have to extrapolate the numbers for all sales nationwide. It's not perfect of course, but they do take into account the fact that they don't have data for all retailers. Unless the ones that they don't have data for are wildly different from the ones they do and Nielsen doesn't know about it, they're the best guess we have. Amazon on the other hand, can be easily manipulated as we can see, and only represents a sliver of the buying public.

Eug · Aug 2, 2007, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

One of my friend's little brothers (who is 13) told me he was going to get a HD-DVD player. I talked him out of it because his TV is only 23", it would be a better idea to get an unconverting dvd player...

For $199, I'd definitely consider an HD DVD player, cuz it's also an upconverting DVD player. A decent upconverting DVD player costs $129 already, and doesn't include the 5 free movies.

Mind you, he's only 13 with a 23" TV. For him, I'd probably tell him to get a $70 DVD player.

goMac · Aug 2, 2007, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

For $199, I'd definitely consider an HD DVD player, cuz it's also an upconverting DVD player. A decent upconverting DVD player costs $129 already, and doesn't include the 5 free movies.

Mind you, he's only 13 with a 23" TV. For him, I'd probably tell him to get a $70 DVD player.

The final straw is he already has an XBox 360. I told him to get a VGA cable and use the XBox.