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Rumor · Jul 12, 2006, 12:36 PM

Here's one to tickle the noggins of those that do not believe in evolution:

What if "God" created evolution along with everything else?

RAILhead · Jul 12, 2006, 12:47 PM

Ugh. Here we go again...

Dakar · Jul 12, 2006, 12:51 PM

They really do need to make sticky threads for evolution, abortion, Christianity,,,

Rumor · Jul 12, 2006, 01:09 PM

I haven't really seen anyone address this. Usually it's either one or the other. There are a couple of exceptions though, but very few.

Uncle Skeleton · Jul 12, 2006, 01:48 PM

I have. But for these people there is no conflict, so the thread just goes: "we agree. Ok." And then doesn't get to 10 pages long. I guess if you only ever read the 10 page ones, you probably wouldn't see it.

lpkmckenna · Jul 12, 2006, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Here's one to tickle the noggins of those that do not believe in evolution:

What if "God" created evolution along with everything else?

That's exactly what Professor Ken Miller has said. Ken Miller talks with Stephen Colbert.

placebo1969 · Jul 12, 2006, 02:35 PM

I'm pretty sure I've said in a different thread that creationism and evolution are NOT mutually exclusive. I believe God played a role in the forming of the universe, world, etc., and that evolution occurred.

olePigeon · Jul 12, 2006, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Here's one to tickle the noggins of those that do not believe in evolution:

What if "God" created evolution along with everything else?

Prove it.

... and before you say, "Prove he didn't," that's why you'll never be taken seriously, and why Intelligent Design/Creationism is not a science; much less a scientific theory.

RAILhead · Jul 12, 2006, 02:47 PM

Uhh...why don't YOU prove He didn't? You ask "us" to do that, so do it yourselves.

Monique · Jul 12, 2006, 03:01 PM

Of course evolution is God's design; not the fairytale of creation.

olePigeon · Jul 12, 2006, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Uhh...why don't YOU prove He didn't? You ask "us" to do that, so do it yourselves.

... because my position doesn't include God as a factor, that's your position. If I'm trying to establish a radical new theory on electro-magnetism, I'm not going to invest time on why lemons are sour.

Kerrigan · Jul 12, 2006, 03:08 PM

When my little cousin was born he was some sort of ape/blob creature, that could barely talk. I felt sorry for my aunt and uncle, they had to carry him everywhere because all he could do was crawl. Amazingly though after a couple years he started to evolve into a normal human being.

I'm glad Darwin invented evolution.

Dakar · Jul 12, 2006, 03:11 PM

...riiiiiiight.

voodoo · Jul 12, 2006, 03:11 PM

@Rumor

That's what Christians believe. Evolution is God's creation. Only in the sheltered US could anyone think that is not the mainstream belief of Christians.

V

RAILhead · Jul 12, 2006, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

... because my position doesn't include God as a factor, that's your position. If I'm trying to establish a radical new theory on electro-magnetism, I'm not going to invest time on why lemons are sour.

So? Why is your base opinion any more relevant than any other?

Rumor · Jul 12, 2006, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Prove it.

... and before you say, "Prove he didn't," that's why you'll never be taken seriously, and why Intelligent Design/Creationism is not a science; much less a scientific theory.

Did I state is as a fact? No, I did not. There is nothing for me to prove. It was a question.

Rumor · Jul 12, 2006, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by voodoo

@Rumor

That's what Christians believe. Evolution is God's creation. Only in the sheltered US could anyone think that is not the mainstream belief of Christians.

V

Point well taken.

Kevin · Jul 12, 2006, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Monique

Of course evolution is God's design; not the fairytale of creation.

I think Creation was a simplistic way of explaining evolution.

I believe in the "Big bang" theory.

I just believe it was caused purposely by a higher power.

Railroader · Jul 12, 2006, 11:57 PM

I honestly don't care.

smacintush · Jul 13, 2006, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I honestly don't care.

Well, we agree there.

smacintush · Jul 13, 2006, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by voodoo

@Rumor

That's what Christians believe. Evolution is God's creation. Only in the sheltered US could anyone think that is not the mainstream belief of Christians.

V

Though I haven't been out of the US, it has occurred to me in things that I have read that American Christianity is somewhat unique. I mean, in any widespread religion there will be cultural differences I'm sure, but I have wondered if there are fundamental differences between the main brands of Christianity in the US and those practiced in say…different parts of Europe.

Is this the case in your observation?

Railroader · Jul 13, 2006, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Well, we agree there.

voodoo · Jul 13, 2006, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Though I haven't been out of the US, it has occurred to me in things that I have read that American Christianity is somewhat unique. I mean, in any widespread religion there will be cultural differences I'm sure, but I have wondered if there are fundamental differences between the main brands of Christianity in the US and those practiced in say…different parts of Europe.

Is this the case in your observation?

Note: My observations are not about American Catholics or Episcopalians. They are generally very similar to European Christians.

Yes, there are fundamental differences between what is considered normal or even mainstream Christianity in the US compared to Europe. The difference is not apparent at the surface, almost all Christian groups recognize the Bible as being the roots/core of the faith and the recognition of Christ is naturally part of Christianity.

Hence the name. However, that is where the similarities begin to fade away. Some important things:

Interpretation:

There is a very liberal approach prevalent in the US regarding interpretation of the Bible and indeed in many Christian sects personal interpretation or at the very least pastoral interpretation is encouraged. Of course this does not apply to American Catholics.

In Europe there is generally a more conservative look on Christianity. The Catholic Church, needless to say, is at the forefront of this conservatist view of Biblical interpretation, but even the Lutherans of Northern Europe have a centralized church in their respective country that interprets the Bible.

That is to say, maintains the traditional interpretation, because it isn't like the conservatives are always re-interpreting it to their liking. They are the holders and protectors of the original texts so naturally they look at it as their duty to preserve the original meaning as best they can.

Spiritism:

While spiritism is common in Europe and America (i.e. that we have a soul that leaves the body when it dies and goes straight to Heaven, or sticks around and scares people) it is not accepted in European Christianity - neither Catholicism or Lutheranism.

Evangelism:

That the Bible is the word of God, straight from the horse's mouth - so to speak. A popular movement in American Christianity, but considered to be literatism and fanatiscm by Europeans. Such sects do exist in Europe, but they are very very tiny.

The Holy Spirit:

Helps people perform miracles, lets them speak in tongues, makes prophets. Pentacostals and Charismatics in America are very into this, but this is generally shunned in Catholicism (although there exist Charismatic Catholics) and certainly in Lutheranism. Miracles happen, but we cannot call them forth - is the main belief. No matter how strong your faith is, no matter how true you are.. it is not given that you will be visited or inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Church:

A center for faith, a place of peace and protection. A house of God. The church is an institution that is self-sustaining. They choose their priests and their doctrine. The congregation follows the sheperds. That is the European Christian view of the purpose of the Church, be it Catholic or Lutheran. What is more, asides from random donations, the congregation is not expected to give one cent to the Church.

Revelations:

Hot with Adventists and Evangelists, but considered to be the least important part of the Bible by European Christians.

Rapture:

Well.. it just isn't there in European Christianity.

There are more fundamental differences and nuances. These are from the top of my head and compare to Pentacostalism, Charismatism, Evangelism, Adventism etc.

V

Spliffdaddy · Jul 13, 2006, 02:16 AM

I'm not sure anybody cares what Europeans think.

voodoo · Jul 13, 2006, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I'm not sure anybody cares what Europeans think.

Well, at least you do.

V

Kr0nos · Jul 13, 2006, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Rumor

What if "God" created evolution along with everything else?

If that is true, then why hasn't every culture in the history of mankind had the same 'Genesis account'? Why is it, that most cultures and people on the planet have, historically, believed differently?

And furthermore, should this be true, why isn't there a single shred of solid evidence for this theory? (No, the fact that science can't answer this question isn't relevant here).

Taliesin · Jul 13, 2006, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

If that is true, then why hasn't every culture in the history of mankind had the same 'Genesis account'? Why is it, that most cultures and people on the planet have, historically, believed differently?

And furthermore, should this be true, why isn't there a single shred of solid evidence for this theory? (No, the fact that science can't answer this question isn't relevant here).

For me it's obvious that God guides nearly everything, and that all life and all things depend on Him to exist in the first place and to continue to exist, ie. that without His will noone of us would be able to live for even a second further.

If indeed life is transforming and evolving, and if even we humans have evolved from one-cellers then it's obvious for me that God has chosen to do so in that way.

That's my faith which is of course unprovable at this side of life, since according to my faith God deliberately wanted His existence to be unprovable.

Taliesin

Kevin · Jul 13, 2006, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I'm not sure anybody cares what Europeans think.

Not only that, I know Europeans that would say voodoo's little post was way off.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 13, 2006, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Here's one to tickle the noggins of those that do not believe in evolution:

What if "God" created evolution along with everything else?

That is quite possible. But it is an answer to a question evolution doesn't seek to answer. As an atheist, I have no problem intellectually contemplating this possibility. While I don't believe it is a likely explanation I also don't think it is a likely explanation.

The theory of evolution doesn't address where life first came from, it addresses how life has changed over time (a very long time). So yes, it is quite possible that God created the earth and created the process of evolution as we know it today. Honest scientists would never make claims as to being able to answer definitely that question (of first origins) as it is not a question that can be answered using the tools of scientific investigation.

Kevin · Jul 13, 2006, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

The theory of evolution doesn't address where life first came from, it addresses how life has changed over time (a very long time).

Some people will tell you differently. I know they are wrong, but hey. Lots of people think evolution disproves God's existence.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 13, 2006, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Some people will tell you differently. I know they are wrong, but hey. Lots of people think evolution disproves God's existence.

Sure, some people think the theory of evolution explains first origins for all life but they would be wrong. But how many scientists in the field of evolutionary biology think this? How many scientists think the theory of evolution explains first origins for all life? I would guess not many, if there are any at all. And, in the context of what gets taught in schools, that is what matters: Are those who write the science textbooks confused as to whether or not the theory of evolution explains first origins for life or changes to life-forms subsequent to first origins?

Kevin · Jul 13, 2006, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Sure, some people think the theory of evolution explains first origins for all life but they would be wrong. But how many scientists in the field of evolutionary biology think this? How many scientists think the theory of evolution explains first origins for all life? I would guess not many, if there are any at all. And, in the context of what gets taught in schools, that is what matters: Are those who write the science textbooks confused as to whether or not the theory of evolution explains first origins for life or changes to life-forms subsequent to first origins?

No, but some teachers are. Some forum members are.

voodoo · Jul 13, 2006, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not only that, I know Europeans that would say voodoo's little post was way off.

Sure you do.

V

Doofy · Jul 13, 2006, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by voodoo

Spiritism:

While spiritism is common in Europe and America (i.e. that we have a soul that leaves the body when it dies and goes straight to Heaven, or sticks around and scares people) it is not accepted in European Christianity - neither Catholicism or Lutheranism.

Catholics don't believe in Purgatory any more?

voodoo · Jul 13, 2006, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Catholics don't believe in Purgatory any more?

Of course. Why? If you need purification, you get purification before Judgement Day. Does time exist after death?

Does God put one in the purgatory for a week just after one dies, straight before one is Judged or somewhere in between?

Simply (according to Catholics): there is a soul, it will be Judged, at the proper time, it may need cleansing before Judgement. Is the cleansing 'real-time' or does it just appear to be long for the soul?

In Catholicism it is on Judgement Day that the dead will rise from their graves. Not before. Exceptions can be made, like for saints or possibly those who need time in the purgatory. The rest wait calmly until the time comes.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

V

Doofy · Jul 13, 2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by voodoo

Of course. Why?

It didn't seem to fit with your explanation of "spiritism".

Originally Posted by voodoo

In Catholicism it is on Judgement Day that the dead will rise from their graves. Not before. Exceptions can be made, like for saints or possibly those who need time in the purgatory. The rest wait calmly until the time comes.

Arh, OK. That explains your position better.

olePigeon · Jul 13, 2006, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

So? Why is your base opinion any more relevant than any other?

My position has something that yours doesn't, evidence.

olePigeon · Jul 13, 2006, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rumor

Did I state is as a fact? No, I did not. There is nothing for me to prove. It was a question.

Ah, my mistake. I thought you were asserting the idea. Philosophically speaking, I see no reason why a god or gods couldn't spark the universe and all things in it. I just think it's rude that they ignore us.

RAILhead · Jul 13, 2006, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

My position has something that yours doesn't, evidence.

That's right, I keep forgetting about all those fossil records...

olePigeon · Jul 13, 2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

That's right, I keep forgetting about all those fossil records...

... and bacteria, modern human evolution, etc. Fossils aren't the only evidence that support evolution.

Kr0nos · Jul 14, 2006, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Taliesin

For me it's obvious that God guides nearly everything, and that all life and all things depend on Him to exist in the first place and to continue to exist, ie. that without His will noone of us would be able to live for even a second further.

How is this 'obvious'?

King Bob On The Cob · Jul 14, 2006, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

My position has something that yours doesn't, evidence.

You have evidence of the initial creation of life and the universe other than speculation?

Please go on.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 14, 2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

You have evidence of the initial creation of life and the universe other than speculation?

Please go on.

The theory of evolution DOES NOT deal with "the initial creation of life"; It doesn't care about how life began only how life, of every sort, has changed over time. How long will it take people to understand that?

Rumor · Jul 14, 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

The theory of evolution DOES NOT deal with "the initial creation of life"; It doesn't care about how life began only how life, of every sort, has changed over time. How long will it take people to understand that?

Wait. Say that again, so it can sink in.

olePigeon · 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

You have evidence of the initial creation of life and the universe other than speculation?

Yes. The Universe was "created" (we don't know if it started, or if it changed states, or what) roughly 13.7 billion years ago. This does take into consideration certain constants that we are now finding out do change (such as the speed of light.) So there is a discrepency of +/- 200 million years. We got that number by calculating how large the universe was at the time of Recombination (base elemets being created in the early formation of stars) using an image of the current universe via mapping the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation discovered by Robert Dicke and Dave Wilkinson. Before that time, there is a lot of deviation as modern physics breaks down as you start to lose dimensions and basic principles associated with common physics. However, using the Hubble constant (the rate at which the universe is accelerating and expanding) we can estimate the size of the universe up to about 6 seconds after the "Big Bang" (or whatever happened) and therefore, it's age.

Remember, light is only so fast. It doesn't go any faster than 300,000 kps. If we take a picture of the distant edge of the universe now, we're looking into the past of millions (possibly billions) of years as the light finally reaches us.

Life on Earth specifically is also debated. Evidence supports many different theories from protein mixtures to panspermia from other planets. There are many different possibilities.

However, in all of that, as someone mentioned, this is about Evolution. Evolution does not cover how life got here, just what happened to it after it did.

CharlesS · Jul 14, 2006, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, but some teachers are. Some forum members are.

And who would those forum members be? Other than the creationist contingent, who has claimed that evolution is about the beginning of life on earth rather than how life has changed over time?

Kerrigan · Jul 14, 2006, 03:49 PM

Here's a question: why is this man allowed to teach an obviously false theory under the pretense of 'academic freedom', but 'intelligent design' is considered an inappropriate subject to teach? Shouldn't it work both ways?

voodoo · Jul 14, 2006, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

It didn't seem to fit with your explanation of "spiritism".

Arh, OK. That explains your position better.

My English is unfortunately lacking at times.. I hope I caused no misunderstanding. Note, that I am not sure how the Church of England stands in these matters, I know you know much better where it stands and how its interpretation is. I only know the churches I've been part of.. although I imagine that it is similar to Lutheran protestantism.

V

King Bob On The Cob · Jul 14, 2006, 04:22 PM

This thread was about how creationism and evolutionism can co-exist, yet you still have people knocking on both sides. I mean, really now, WTF. The ideas that are in use at the start of this thread as of right now can't be proven or disproven, no matter how hard either side tries.

lpkmckenna · Jul 14, 2006, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Here's a question: why is this man allowed to teach an obviously false theory under the pretense of 'academic freedom', but 'intelligent design' is considered an inappropriate subject to teach? Shouldn't it work both ways?

No. What's taught in public schools and what's taught at university are separate issues.